hi guys
just purchased a mauser type action rifle. need some help identifying it. marked on the bottom of the bbl under the wood is marked edgar kiess suhl 6.5x68 (caliber?) serrial #
krupp laufstahl and some other crazy stampings. please see the pict. the stock is a 3/4 length european style nice rifle but i need some info.
thanks chris

Chris,

6.5x68S is the caliber. Don't know anything about the maker. Could you perhaps post a pic of the right side of the action with the bolt open. I might be able to offer a bit more insight...the9.3guy

hi 9_3guy
here is a pict with the bolt open. a pretty neat old rifle.
thanks chris

anither pict

ctw,

The maker's name is Edgar Kiess and he is or was located in Suhl, Germany. The cartridge is the 6.5x68S see below for drawing. Krupp is the steel maker and the type of steel is listed as "course steel" (laufstahl).

thanks nononsense
is kiess a well known name?
thanks chris

"Krupp" is the barrel maker. "Laufstahl" is the type of steel - "light steel" maybe.

No fair - I was on the phone...

ctw,

Very sweet rifle! It would be my guess that it is a guild gun. But Nononsense likely knows alot more about it than I do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It appears to be a standard M-98 commercial action. The 6.5x68 is almost a magnum cartridge with performance similar to the .264 Win Mag. Brass is available from Huntingdon's. What a great find! I'm jealous. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...the9.3Guy

Chris,

Krupp manufactures steel as they have for 400 years. Independent barrel makers create the barrels from Krupp steel. Sig and Lothar Walther/de use Krupp steel to make their barrels.

"Krupp is the name of a prominent, 400 year-old German family from Essen, famous for their steel production and armament manufacture. The family business, known as Friedrich Krupp AG in modern times, merged with Thyssen in 1999 to create ThyssenKrupp AG, a large industrial conglomerate."

Suhl and Essen are cities in Germany that have or had many small custom gunsmiths. Similar to Ferlach in Austria. This particular gunsmith is unknown to me but that's not saying anything. There are thousands of small gunsmiths in the U.S. that are unknown outside of their own town. But this certainly doesn't diminish either the quality or the value as far as you the owner is concerned. If you could post some more pictures of the additional markings and some good overall shots, it would be appreciated.

Someone better with German will have to solve the nomenclature for the steel. My electronic translator says "course" (lauf) but I think that it might mean something along the lines of "chrome-moly".

Regards.

I just saw the second photo and I would bet that 9.3Guy is right, it could be a guild gun. The butterknife bolt handle and the double triggers make this even more special to Mauser lovers. Even the wood looks good as far as I can tell from the photo.

No "almost" about it. There's absolutely no reason not to get 264 Win performance out of that thing. Winchester is .511" at the base, and .490" at the shoulder, 2.040" long. Not a bit of difference worth mentioning.

Chris,

Sideironjohn is right regarding the comparison of the 6.5x68S to the .264 Win. However, like the .264 WM, the 6.5x68S needs slow powders and the heavier bullets to perform efficiently. Otherwise you are simply throwing good powder out of the end of the barrel without being burned.

I'm posting some more things from Lutz Moeller's site which center on the 6.5x68S and hunting. He mentions that at the higher velocities, it is not uncommon for lightly constructed bullets to disintegrate in flight due to what he calls "stress risers", fast twist and higher velocities. I had noticed this when I first started shooting the .264 WM and some bullets didn't make it to the target. I have since started testing a couple of barrels made with the polygonal rifling form and I'm not seeing the jacket loss or non-arriving bullets as yet. The twist rates are 8.5" and 7.8" similar to the Swedish Mauser twist. Lutz may be on to something... I haven't tried the "5R, canted, ratchet" form yet but that's next on the 6.5 list of things to do.

I have converted a few (not all) of the dimensions to inches for simplicity.

This is a terrific classic European cartridge worthy of the rifle pictured.
***************************************************
Hello Lutz,

I would like to ask your opinion for the 6.5x68 as you certainly have knowledge and experience of this caliber.

a Friend

Dear Frind,

the 6,5x68 is a wonderful Cartridge to hunt most any European Animal, including the Finnish Whitetail but beware of long Twist! Current Factory Rifles come with 250 (9.8") or even 280 mm (11") long Twist, allowing to stabilize only 6g (93 gr.) RWS or the KS up to 8,2g (126 gr.) or Short Hornady V-Max or alike Stubnoses, nothing windslippery as a Scenar not 9-, no 8-, no 7 g, no nothing. They tumble after 50 m Flight; bad Luck!

So the Problem with the 6,5x68 are Twist and Bullets. The Benefits are a very sturdy Case, able to withstand extreme high Pressures like the 8x68s or .338 Lapua Magnum. If you have a 230 mm (9") or 220 mm (8.6") Twist Barrel and a good windslippery Bullet, to be able to withstand the achievable high Speeds and be strudy enough not to blast into Pieces upon Impact, like the Scenars do. You may be able to hunt further and smaller and bigger Animals than with almost any other Cartridge.


While I successfully, with short Flights, hunted from tiny Roe Deer to big 148 kg empty Red Stag and big tough Oryx in Southafrica and dozens Pigs and Springbock with the fast 6,5 mm 7g Lapua Scenar out of my 6,5x65RWS, I must admit the Rest mass is only 1,2 to 1,6 g and Penetration in Meat about 6-7 cm. So Shots with such a Blaster are risky. Clean sideways Heart or Lungshots work well with the Scenar.


To solve the Problem I make these Copperbullets here see above for the 6,5 mm. Now you can hunt big Game with the 6,5x65RWs even on small Distance. Well, you could load the Naturalis Copperbullet, but the will not fly far. So I start to offer turned Bullets with some special Features (Patent applied for) for the 6,5x65RWS on demand.


The 6,5x68 would need a slightly different Layout, to fit the different Throat. But that is easily possible as they all come from the CNC-Lathe (Gildemeister).

Also remember 6,5x68 Cartridges need al longer Magazine then most other Cartridges, around 86.5mm (3.4") or so. That means, if you just rebuilt an old Swedish Mauser, it will be single Shot. Sauer 202 is, as far as I know, only available in long Twist. So choose a Rifle in that you can easily install a new Barrel. Barrel life with conventional bullets for Match Precision is below 1000 Shots, with my bullets maybe double. I do not know yet. Would you like to test?

Sincerely
Lutz

The disappearing 6.5 saga


I am confused! not surprised, that I am confused happens a lot. Is the Problem that some 6.5mm bullets go "POOF, or Puff, or just blow up, come apart in flight? Is it from the velocity they are shot at, the rate of twist or do we know. I am toying with the idea of building a 6.5 mm some thing 6.5 mm-06 or 6.5 mm-08. The reason being the 6.5mm bullets appear to be ballisticly superior to anything in the 5.6-7.62 range. So if some one would not mind to recapture the argument, I will be happy to call Sierra, Berger and JLK to pass this buy them.

M Young

OK Mike,

I'll do my best to pass an what I discovered to date, as well as why I THINK it is so. (Doesn't mean it's true though!). My experience to date concerns .264 Win. Mag. and 6.5-06 cartridges; 264 Win. Mag. from back in 1970; 6.5-06 over the last 2 years. High BC (therefore long) bullets needs Lots of spin to stablise them. Thin long Bastards like 140gr+ 6.5s need 8" and 9" twists to do this which equates to RPM rates of 220,000 to 300,000 depending an MVs of between 2800 and 3400fps and the twist in each case. I lost Berger 140s @ 3200 fps into thin air presumably due to the jackets letting go (almost certainly); several at 300 metres, a few more at up to 600 yards, 1 in 10 at 1000 yards, 4 in 10 at 1100 yards, whilst at 1200, only 6 out of 17 arrived. In ALL Gases, the ones that arrived were in the V ring (or up or down wind) i.e. accurate. I 'lost' 2 Match King 142s to date; one at 300m, the other at 1200 yards at 3200 fps MV.

So far, Lapua SCENAR 139s all arrived OK even at 3400fps! I would say that it is the RPM that causes the jackets to split, and it is likely that either the change of section where the boattail starts thinner jacket section there - or the Stress raisers caused by the rifling, is the most probable scenario.

I would concurr, that the 6.5 calibre presents a good Case for V. long range accurate wind resisting shooting, as the calibre increases from this size, more recoil, more powder, more shooter distress and so on. To achieve the result from 30ca1 that is readily available from a 6.5-284 or 6.5-06, one would need to shoot say 210 Bergers at 3250 fps. This requires a .300 Weatherby Magnum at least - possibly 300/338 Lapua Magnum; IMHO this is simply is a non Starter.

Laurie
Datum: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:50:16 +0200 Von: Laurie <[email protected]>

Lutz M�ller

Hello Lutz!

And thank you for quick and very informative answear!

My interest to the 6.5x68 cartridge aroused when my gunsmith offered me a brand new Lothar Walther barrel with a dirty cheap price. So I took it and selected classic Mauser 98 action as the heart of this system.

I am aware that the 6.5x68 barrels have usually slower twist than used with eg. the 6.5x55. With 1-8" twist and 9 g Scenars, the 6.5x68 would be a noteworthy long range cartridge having performance similar to the .264 Win. Mag. yet the 6.5x68 is certainly more easy to reload due to its case shape compared with deep-shoulder magnum cartridges (other example would be the .300 Lapua Magnum vs .30-378 Weatherby). However, for me the 6.5x68 would be primarily hunting cartridge (mainly long range bird caliber (large forest birds like black grouse, goose and varmints like grow at wintertime), but also Forest Deer (Rangifer tarandus fennicus) and wild boar, if I have sometimes oppoturnity for that. If barrel accepts a 9 g bullet, it would be also legal for moose hunting! At least there will be no lack of energy! Anyway it will also interesting to ! test, develope loads etc.

Also, can you point me a source for reloadable brass (RWS or Hirtenberger?); The 6.5x68 is not available from Finland, and I have not found empty cases from big mail order firms like Frankonia.

I thank you inviting me to whitetail hunt. Perhaps I could join, if I have time.

Best regards
a Friend

Dear Freind,

so you got cheap Lothar Walther Barrel. Fine!

Usual Lothar Walther Barrels are as such. So you will not stabilize the long Bullets, when you shoot them with the Front first!

For Varmint the short Hornady-VMAx will do fine, but be explosive�

Now to hunt Moose I advise a Trick I know not, whether it shall work, but it is worth a Try. You have a 141 grain 6,5 mm FMJ Bullet. Try to load that with the open end (the usual open Tail) in Front. The Back, being closed, will withstand the Pressure. The non-aerodynamic Flatnose now stabilizes Flight, the Mass center moves forward and the Lead tip is good to hunt Game. So a Solution for Moose may be just a Turn away.

I know the Bullets are out of Program, but I still have some, you may like. Also Sellier % Bellot makes a 6,5mm FMJ you could reverse. I also have those.

Brass is available form RWS and Hirtenberger. RWS is Sturdier with a thicker Bottom, so I would us those. I have to order some Brass as well, so tell me how many you want and I order them and send them to you. How many? 100?

Please let me know your Home Adress.

Sincerely
Lutz M�ller

thanks that is a lot to digest. i purchased the rifle because of its appearance and lines. the caliber only came to me after i took it out of the stock. i thought at the time it may be a nice project rifle. the shop thought it to be re barreled. but on the bottom it is marked with the same # as the receiver. the bore is perfect. i will post a few more picts however i will have to one at a time. what may this rifle be worth?? i am no expert by a long shot but it must be pre wwII. eagles stampted on the receiver bbl and bolt. as its not set up for a scope and the rifle seems to be original so i hate to have it tapped.
thanks chris

another pict

yet another pict.
thanks chris

Chris,

Thank you for posting more photos. Great stuff!

The trigger guard is made from horn, not uncommon at the time. If it has a forend tip, it too might be horn. Shine a bright light on it or take it outside into the direct sunlight. It will look like layers similar to the trigger guard, which is how a piece of horn is made, by building up layers over the years of growth.

The latch on the left side of the stock is a lock to hold the bolt down so that it can't be opened accidentally by bushes or tree branches. The stock is designed for iron sights and the receiver still has the charger hump for stripper clips and the thumb notch. This just means that it is not one of the later solid left sided commercial receivers. Many of the civilian rifles were set up this way.

The cartridge was introduced by RWS in 1938 or 39 but was developed by Schuler a bit earlier.

One more photo favor... Could you show the full rifle from either side? You say that the stock is 3/4 length and I'd like to see if it is one of the African style rifles.

Thanks again for the photos.

Regards.

hi nononsense
here are pict of both sides. the forend tip is horn as well. gripcap is steel. the slide on the left side of the stock only seems to disengage the triggers not lock the bolt. the safety on the bolt does that though. no one has said what the rifle may be worth? some where i have a book that tells of the markings on the rifle maybe i will have to dig it up.
thanks chris

other side

Chris,

Very nice Rifle! I don't think I have ever seen one with a 3/4 length stock. I have Jon Speed's book on commercial Mausers. I will look in it tonite when I get home and see if it lends any insight on the maker. Don't know why I didn't think if it sooner... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

the9.3guy

Chris,

The lock on mine is for the bolt but I suppose that there are other variations.

I just checked Speed since I've been out all day. I remembered that he showed a picture of a 3/4 stock Mauser that I thought was called the African. He states that it is named the "Special African Model" which is also referenced as the "Normal Hunting Rifle Type L", the 'L' being for Lang - long barreled, 3/4 stock. It was first released in 1905. The barrel is stated as being 27.6" long with 2 barrel bands holding it into the stock. These are inside the stock not around the outside of the stock. I don't see the barrel bands in your photos but I can't be sure. The photos in Speed's book show a round bolt instead of the butterknife but that can be a variation by the gunsmith. His photos look like your rifle...

The hesitation to add a price might stem from the fact that Speed says that these are rare... if they are original. I suggest that you find an absolutely verifiable Mauser expert and get his or her opinion face to face.

Thank you for posting the additional photos! I am, like 9.3guy, jealous beyond words. This is a very nice rifle.

Regards.

Edit to add picture URL:

Take a look at these photos. They don't show barrel bands either but the rifle was made by August Schuler, the gunsmith that is credited with the 6.5x68S and the 8x68S. Note the barrel is octagon but only 26" long.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/r2511.htm

ctw,

I've been lurking on this thread because I'm interested in learning more about Mausers. I don't have any knowledge to offer, except to say the value of your rifle could rapidly be approaching scarey proportions.

Nononsense gave you great advice, find a Mauser expert you can trust. Don't do anything in a hurry - you might have a gem.

my rifle has a 26 inch bbl as well but is not nearly that nice. so what you are saying is not to drill and tap it? i do not know any mauser experts. no bbl bands just a loop that the screw runs threw that hols on the front swivel. the eagles look like natzi markings i know i have seen them before. how do i tell when it was made? under the two eagles on the bbl thier are a few numbers what do they mean?
thanks chris

Edger Keiss was a gunmaker in Suhl and is listed as working 1935-39 era, may have worked before or after. There might be a three or four number digit on the bottom of the barrel for the proof date such as 334 for March-1934. looks like a typical sporter of this era with a Greener safety.

ctw,

I say definitely do NOT drill and tap this gun. It would seriously detract from it's value, and the stock is not designed for scope use. To see through a scope on this rifle would be very awkward indeed.

Stated another way: if you drill and tap this gun I might not survive the shock. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Pretty please don't.

Live well

Chris,

There isn't much more that I can help with unless you have more and better photographs of the additional numbers and proof marks. What you would be looking for are maybe the letters B, U, G, N with crowns over the tops of each and the serial number. These were used between 1924 and 1934 with some carrying on through the later years.
B = rifle proofed in assembled form.
U = final inspection proof.
G = sporting firearm with rifled barrel.
N = indicates Nitro proofing. (from 1933-1939) Also used on military contract rifles for export.

Non-exported receivers had a serial number on the left side of the receiver above the stock line. Exported receivers had the serial number on the bottom of the receiver so that the maker could assign their number to the side.

The caliber could have been placed on the left side of the barrel or underneath on the barrel. Along with this number underneath was the caliber markings: land and groove size (mm) as well as the twist rate (mm) and possibly even the steel maker's name.

The ballistics established by the Mauser factory for the 6.5x68S was:

Spitzer bullet weight 127 gr.
3,130 FPS. at the muzzle.
2,795 Ft/lbs. at the muzzle.
56,000 PSI. chamber pressure.

If you want to get a thorough grounding in Mausers, I would suggest buying the Ludwig Olson book and the Jon Speed book on Mauser sporting rifles.

I don't recommend tapping the rifle anywhere on it as it will ruin the potential value. As has been pointed out, the stock is not suitable for scope mounts, anyway. It was done but the cheek weld was non-existent.

If you can take the rifle outside and photograph the numbers and proof marks, I might be able to help more. If not, I think that this is the best that I can do.

Best of luck with a wonderful rifle!

hi 2mp
wondering where you found info on edgar? looking to investigate further. thanks chris

Chris, the reference was from �Old German Target Arms� Alte Scheibenwaffen by Thompson et.al. You have the complete listing, this information was gathered from old phone books and city directories. I have a good selection of books on German gunmakers and none list anything on Keiss. You can write the gunmakers museum in Suhl, but they know little about the makers of Suhl. Suhl is a town that for a few hundred years has been in the arms making business, but sadly not much has been written about the small makers, of which there were many.

hi nononsense
well i took the rifle down again to try and get picts. the resolution i can post here does not show them so i will describe the best i can. edgar kiess suhl and caliber is stampted. the serrial #. beside that 87. the eagle with an n under it below that the eagle witha J under it below that 840 (wich acourding to 2mp should mean august 1940) below that an upside down heart with some lines in it. beside them are two fancy r's inside of a simple scroll. on the receiver ring right side anothe eagle with no letters under it right side serial # under the bolt handle inside the tight curve another plain eagle. no crowns i can see. hopefully this will help. if you would like me to send some better picts of the markings please email me at mmw@gtlakes.com thanks chris

thanks i found a 840 if it means the same augest 1940?
thanks again chris

All: Krupp laufstahl is not coarse steel but means barrel steel. Lauf is the German word for barrel. The latch on the side is a Greener side safety - common on drillings and combination guns but uncommon on bolt action rifles.

The African model that Speed refers to is an original Mauser factory sporting rifle model. The original Mauser African Model is very rare. Your rifle, on the other hand, was built by an individual gunmaker and is perhaps even rarer than the Mauser offering but will not command anywhere near the price that a Mauser African Model would command. Still, it is a very nice piece that should be quite desirable among Mauser buffs.

The rifle appears to be a wonderful example of a pre-war product of a fine custom maker in Germany.

Tom

Yes!