Ok i'm in the market for a new rifle. The only 2 bolt action rifles i've owned are the Rem.78 and a Rem. 700.So i guess for lack of a better description "i'm a remington guy". Now i've shouldered both rifles both are equally comfortable.

I've read quite a bit of possitive pubicity on the model 70.My question is how many of you guys feel it's better than the than the 700 or vise-a-versa....Why do you think on is better than the other?

Neither is better than the other. You may as well throw in Tikka, Ruger, Savage, Thompson Center, Browning, Sako, Weatherby, Howa, etc. and ask the same question.

It's a Chevy/Ford question and you're the only one that can answer your question.

+1 on the winchester model 70. Old, new and inbetween......

Bay Dog speaks truth, you will have any number of opinions from guy's who swear by a certain rifle but the truth is in the rifle market today they all have to be pretty darn good or they won't be around very long, either of the rifle's you mentioned are top notch, go handle, fondle and shoulder a few and pick the one that you like best............Good luck............Hb

Remington currently is having some QC issues, and I don't really see that turning around anytime soon. That kind of pains me, as I'm a pretty big Remington guy. If I were rolling the dice on something new right now, I'd go M70 (and will, the .257 Roberts Featherweight and .264 WM Sporter are calling my name...)

Vanguards are worth a look too... but the new Howa stocks are an abomination.

The reason i didn't ask about tikka,ruger,savage,T/C, browning weatherby or howa is because i'm not interested in any of those......but thanks for repling anyway.

Grave- i have 15+ rem 700, i have one model 70 . it is a super grade . it is a better gun than the rem 700s. it only cost twice as much. if you pay 500 you will get a 500 gun.

Actually the Rem.CDL cost about $150 more than the Win. model 70 featherwieght

If that's the case then buy the Winchester model 70 and thank us later....

They will both usually shoot better than I can, but to try to answer your question; look closely at fit and finish, type of material used, milled parts or stamped. Then answer which one fits you the best. Your answers may not be the same as mine, so in final analysis, you have to choose.

I'm leaning that way BSA.Just wanted a bit of input,see what others thought. I'm hearing Rem. is having some QC issues.Both of mine were fine though.

Chevy vs Ford.

I have a pre 64 Model 70 and an 83 Rem 700. I like them both.

Although the 700 is for sale, and i'd never sell the 70.

Ok, that doesn't answer your original question; I think the current Winchester is head-and-shoulders ahead of the current Remington.

Input is a good thing. A lot of great guys here that have vast experience. If it were an older remington 700 mountain rifle, I may be inclined to go the other way but like you've been told the newer remingtons have some QC issues. Good luck with making the right decision.

I'm thinking you're right.

Model 70 to me... I just like the feel of them a little better in general.. however I own as many Remingtons as I do Model 70s...and Rugers for that matter...

if they are both side by side and exactly the same configuration.. sporter barrel, sporter stock, etc I'd go Win every time..

but my Rems are ADLs, or their VLS models and Win doesn't really have an equivalent package...

I own several featherweights, but for preference I think the Rem mountain rifle is a sweeter package than the featherweight...

I'm only going on gun club gossip, but there doesn't seem to be the same problems with the higher-end Remington M700 that some are reporting with the cheaper rifles. Out of the box, i think i would expect similar performance (i haven't any recent experience with the new FNs though). Remington is the better option if you want to "accurise", or want to build a really lightweight rifle. I would rather the Winchester for reliability, which is just down to the extractor design.

The Remington extractor experiences quite a bit of stress during normal operation (it simply has to do a bit of "springing" during normal operation and is relatively small so experiences a bit of stress), and so are more likely to fail. I have seen a few go, mostly on rifles that have done thousands of rounds (target rifles - and most rifles never do the amount of work or are exposed to the pressures of a range rifle). But some haven't done that much work - and if there is a little flaw in that extractor it may fail at an inconvenient time for you. For me this is the actual practical advantage of the big mauser-claw on the M70 - it is simply less prone to failure as it experiences very little stress during operation.

It is a really nit-picky thing and probably of zero significance to the vast majority of folks, but i'd suggest from a practical perspective this and the potential for a lighter weight rilfe in the M700 are about as big a difference as you will find in practice.

There just ain't much in it.

My bad, but I didn't see the OP mention new guns.

If we're talking new. I'd take the Win 70.

I own and like both, but imo, the new FN Model 70s are better than any current Rem 700.

i have some of each, and i prefer the 700s.

Ive got them both too toad, but it seems the Remingtons get the bulk of the use....but they get the bulk of the modification to get them the way I like them too....

Where's Swampy when you need him?

When have we ever needed him?

.

For me the Model 70 is the easy pick.

I'd buy the Remchester.

"When have we ever needed him?". Be nice,now.

Remingtons have the bulk of after market stuff for that reason alone I would pick the Remington. Having said that I do own both.

I hunted with nothing but a Remington from 1974 up until a few years ago. I now much prefer Winchester. I have nothing against Remington, think they make a good rifle, but right now they aren't making anyhing I'd want.

I've owned both too and am down to wichester model 70's now. I'd choose a ruger hawkeye over the rem 700 also....

I prefer 700's to M70's primarily due to the vaunted M70 safety which I dislike.

I'd be looking for an early 700 KS.

I've shot a pile of both and they are both good. Both have pros and cons. It's a personal preference just like a truck as mentioned. The Win safety is just not for me, I hate M70 and M77 safeties. My safe is full of 700s primarily for that reason. I do prefer the old design M70 trigger to the 700 triggers, but both are easy to adjust.

Wow, I thought I was the only one!

I'm not a fan of the M70 safety either. That being said I do own a couple. If I were buying a NIB current offering and had to choose between the two it would be M70 Featherweight.

I would go model 70 anyday. I have the older model remingtons and they are great. I bought a new 700 7mm o8 and it went down the road really quick just bought a Model 70 feather weight and I am very happy with it.

The preoccupation with swing safeties is an very american thing - i 'spose a M70 legacy. They are as american as apple pie. I have always found them a bit awkward (due to a fractured thumb and subsequent arthritis), but i think it would be safe to say that if i polled amongst those i've shot with over the years the swing safety is one of the most cited criticisms of the Ruger and Winchester. It isn't a big thing and i don't think i have ever met anyone who absolutely hated the swing safety, but it certainly isn't a popular feature in my part of the world - and i wonder if it has contributed to the failure of Winchester to compete with Remington here. Most hunters definitely prefer a simple push forward design rather than the swing design. If you have a look at some of the stuff published by native-born African PHs, it is probably the most commonly cited criticism of both rifles as a DGR (if you read american-born hunters, they will give you a very different opinion, but then most would have grown up with swings). If you have always used them, they are just second nature to you and you'll never think about it. For those of us who grew up with other safeties, sometimes they can seem a little awkward to learn to use quickly. Of course, if that is their biggest failing, then there isn't much wrong with them. And the Remington safety has certainly had more than its fair share of failings.

I know you asked about only two, and I don't mean to be obtuse, but I'd suggest you shoulder one more before you spend your money, especially if you like some of the attributes of the M70.

Whether you want wood and blue or stainless and synthetic, or some combo thereof, I think Kimber beats them both right now.

There are some detractors who point to spotty accuracy, but I think QC is much better at this point, and if you get a good one, you'll be glad you took time to shoulder one more, especially if you are at all interested in a light weight rig.

DJ

I would buy a Winchester over the M700 even if the M70 cost $150 more than a M700.

I have heard (secondhand info, I know, so take it with a grain of salt) of a fair number of XCR IIs with extractor problems. I consider that model to be one of the more high end Remingtons.

Ok, by request!

Remington 700's are the most accurate rifles out of the box.
When this was proven we don't know.

The US military and police use M 700 sniper rifles.
The Police use Dodge Chargers for police cars but you can't buy the same cars off the show room floor.

Push feed rifles are more accurate.
They can be. The difference in a big game hunting rifle is almost nil.

Remington M 700's have three (count them 3) rings of steel.
A marketing ploy by Remington to cover up the fact the extractor is a cheap, flimsy POS that happens to work quite well (for a cheap, flimsy POS)
I feel I'm entitled to say it because I have two Remington Rifles. Neither are a 700 but have the POS stamped steel extractor.

As the extractors are the same on all their rifles, i 'spose that is to be expected. My comment was probably more regarding some folks dissapointing experiences with feed and barrels on base models in more recent times.

I really think for most folks the small possibility of an extractor failing is a complete irrelevance. But to be completely honest, to us loonies it can be a big deal! And when the differences between rifle's performance in the field is so small, these are the things that start to matter. I care more about a 1:1000 chance that my extractor might fail than the ballistic difference between a 308 and a 30-06 - in practice i think it is more significant. But to my mind, the extractor issue is balanced by the lighter weight of the Remington.

American? It came from the Mauser.

What Mauser sports a SIDE swing three position safety?

He could be out and about, shooting dinks out of his golf cart...

DF

Ok, the position is a bit different.

I'd go with the new M-70. I would purge it of MIM parts, which would include the trigger, not sure about the current extractor. At one time, replacing the factory extractor with a forged steel, aftermarket part was the way to go. I'd pillar bed, glass and free float mine, then take it to the range.

IMHO,

DF

Actually, what I was referring to was a number of guns where the extractor was either installed incorrectly, or the wrong extractor was installed, leading to very tight chambering, if possible, of a fresh round, not a failure due to work-hardening of the metal.

Can't buy new nowadays... but I'd take a Model 30S over a Model 700...

I think by a quick look at rifles you are likely to see at any precision shooting competition, you can take it as fact. But, yep, i would agree that it would be unrealitic to expect to pick a new M700 out of a box and expect it to outshoot a M70. And of course, the M70 is also used as a law enforcement and military sniper rifle - which i don't think has much to do with anything!

To my mind the differences boil down to this. The Winchester is heavier, because it has a flat bottomed reciever. IMHO, all good mauser actions have a lot of metal about the lower part of the reciever. It is necessitated by the full-length claw extractor and big ejection port. Not a good thing or a bad thing - it is just the way it is with mausers. The Winchester seems right to me if you want a mauser action.

The virtues of the Remington lie in its ability to provide a high degree of accuracy in a lightweight platform - the Remington M700 action remains simultaneously of the most accurate and lightest actions on the market. And this is because it is a cylindrical action - which means both less metal in the reciever, and also greater symmetry and ease of accurising.

I would get a Remington if i wanted a really lightweight platform for a mountain rifle, for which accuracy demands a pretty high. I would get the M70 if i wanted reliability. Probably like most folks here though, i have come to the conclusion that reliability is in practice the most significant difference between differing rifle models these days - because just about any new factory rifle will shoot plenty accurate enough that any extensive tuning will produce improvements that are just not significant in a hunting rifle. So i 'spose i am more of a Winchester guy.

I don't buy new, either. I wouldn't turn down a 60's or 70's vintage 700 or a good condition model 30, if the deal was right. Pre-64 M-70's always interest me.

Just trying to answer the OP within the parameters he set...

Df

dhg, I agree with you. The m 700 action is used for competition far more. The M700 is like a Chevy pickup or a M 1911, there's more after market parts available than any thing else in their league. My gunsmith told me it's easier to bed a round bottom action for accuracy than a flat one and it costs less to set up a M 700 action.

Going off on a tangent, on the safety issue i have always assumed that the M70 swing safety was probably derived from modififactions made to mauser 98s and then applied to the M70 design. I assumed that custom makers making swing safety modifications to mauser 98s came before the M70 design. Does anyone know which came first - customised mausers with horizontal swing safeties, or the M70 safety design?

I think it was the M70 first....thre may have been some Tilden conversions of M70 pre-war safeties, whcih is very similar to the M70 design.

Cant go wrong with either and I own both. The 700 with it lighter action and heavier barrel balances better than a model 70 IMO. The ejector on the 700 has been problematic for me at times, but otherwise my 700's have been bullet proof. I have never had any function issues with a model 70 once they are set up. When I say setup what I mean is I replace the factory extractor with a williams, and drop a STW follower in the stock box after removing the spacer. This works on both standard rounds like the 270 and magnums like the 300 win mag, 7mm rem mag, etc. The 700 have been slightly more accurate on for me, but I never had a 70 that wouldnt shoot with handloads it liked.

I have owned at least 40 brand new Remington model 700's over the years and been around at least a 100 more owned by friends and shooting club guy's and I have never witnessed a malfunction of any kind, these major extractor issues I am reading about have never happened in My presence and I have not experienced any QC issues on any of My new 700 rifles, this may be because I tend to buy the higher end 700's not the SPS models or Wal-Mart rifles, I buy mostly CDL and XCR/XCR II models. I have owned a dozen or so model 70's but never one of the new FN Models, I do think they are a quality rifle, I just can't seem to warm back up to Winchester rifles after I witnessed so many dog's that came out of the New Haven plant during the last few years of production. I do think these QC issues have been addressed in South Carolina though and might someday take the Winchester plunge again, I am also like many others and don't really care for the three position swing safety or the looks of the model 70 claw extractor action but these are personal dislikes that the next man might love. I can say that My 700's have been a bit more accurate on average than My model 70's were in fact a few of those model 70's demonstrated horrible scatter-gun accuracy and were nightmares in the accuracy department...............Hb

I am like many here that have posted in that I own both a M-700 and a M-70. I also like both of them, but I favor my Winchester M-70 clasic Super Grade. I like the 3 - position safety of the Winchester better and like the Mauser claw extractor also. Ido not feel under-armed with the Remington at all, but the Winchester has features that are more desireable to be. Kinda like the differnce between a Chevrolet and a Cadillac comparing the M-700 to the M-70. Either one will get the job done with comparable reliability. The Cadillac (M-70) just seems to have more desireable features. Having said that, I own 2 Winchester rifles, 1 Winchester shotgun, 3 Remington rifles, and 2 Remington shotguns.

It's too bad that many folks base their evaluation of the M70 on the New Haven rifles produced after 1964,and especially some of the Classics. If that's all a guy has been exposed to,it's understandable that he may think quality was all over the map.The pre 64's might have declined cosmetically,but never reached a point where they would not shoot and function.

I have run into the same things myself with the Classics and some of them were/are fine and accurate rifles,but others were real dogs. I have had a few of each kind.If you gave them the right TLC and tweaking, they turned into a great rifle.

In my brief experiences with 5 SC rifles there was not much to fault;they all functioned and shot great.

I like the 3 position safety,trigger,CRF,and easy bolt disassembly and other M70 design features of the M70 vs the Rem 700, but this is my own preference thing.

I don't go ape over either one made today, but stick a really nice pre 64 M70 or Mauser under my nose and my attitude changes.

I own more M700's than any other type. Having said that my last centerfire rifle purchase was a M70 Super Grade. Fit and finish and especially blueing seemed far better than on any of the recent Remingtons. Of course, I stumbled onto a really well priced gun which had a lot to do with it.

Only have fired enough shots so far to get on paper but it looks as though it has potential.

Jim

I think Kimber beats them both right now.

[/quote]

I just looked @ a Kimber last week.Nice rifle,but i'm not to hung up on the light wieght thing.My 700 in 243 wieghs 8 1/2 lbs.and it doesn't bother me to carry it.

What he said..

Until I carried a rifle with an all up weight of under 6.5 lbs I thought a 8.5 lbs rifle was perfectly satisfactory.

Those 8-10 lbs rifles have their place but the place where you'll find your 6.5 lbs rifle is almost invariably in your hand ready to go.

Yup!

Gravestone,

The M70 differs from the 700 design by a wide margin. It's not at all a Chevy/Ford thing if one appreciates mechanical design.

At least both are made in the USA which is good for us.

While I like the stock design and checkering pattern on the new 700's and I had a 722 back in the 50's and a 700 later I don't like the design for a hunting rifle. I do have two 40x's for target shooting and they have not broken yet.

The M70 design more closely follows the mauser design with its control round feeding of cartridges. Just look at the tiny toy like extractor on a 700 along with its clumsy spring loaded ejector and it will give you pause if you like machinery.

Then when you find out that the bolt lug section on a 700 is brazed onto the bolt body your stomach will turn. Of course you know that the bolt handles break off of the 700's more often!

Work a M70 safety and see how it holds the firing pin back on both full safe when it locks the bolt handle and also it holds the firing pin back on the half position so that you can unload a hot chamber safely. You can't do this with a 700.

There is also the Ruger 77 you know. It's also a much better design than the 700.



Rem. bolt above.

you can easily unload the hot chamber of a Remington with the safety on, stupid. you simply leave the safety on and open/retract the bolt.

Id take a 700 over a Ruger any day of the week. The ruger, IMO is a cheap, block of cast steel.

And IMO the Remington extractor thing is way overblown. I have never seen one fail. I have had the ejectors foul up with brass shavings and stop working.

Let me explain. When I wrote:

"Work a M70 safety and see how it holds the firing pin back on both full safe when it locks the bolt handle and also it holds the firing pin back on the half position so that you can unload a hot chamber safely. You can't do this with a 700."

I mean that its not as safe as the 700 only controls the trigger! That the M70's hold back the firing pin! That's a big difference in safety to me.

From what I've read, the new FN M-70's also have a brazed on bolt handle, although I've not seen photos of them absent from the bolt body as in the above photo. It is my understanding that custom builders pin and/or TIG weld those bolt handles just to make sure.

I do like the three piece safety, securing the striker and not just the trigger/sear. I like to be able to unload a rifle with the safety still engaged, unlike the on/off two position safety in which that isn't possible.

You may need to elaborate on why the Ruger 77 is a "better design". For a benchrest rifle, the 700 may be the "better design". IMHO, the pre-64 M-70 is the best design of all for a general purpose hunting rifle. I like it better than the Mauser of which it's a clone, no doubt.

DF

Yes the bolt handles on post 64 M70's are brazed on as well however the handle is keyed into the bolt body.

A smith here as reported that some M70 bolt handles have broken off as well however not as many as the 700's.

NH and FN models have the handle and cocking piece ramp as a single unit which is splined to fit the back of the bolt..They have a washer that is supposed to solder that joint when heat is applied correctly. I have owned 50+ remingtons and never had a problem with a extractor or a handle falling off. I have had some with sloppy feed rails that had to be returned for polishing and one with the scope mounting screws drilled by Hellen Keller. Interestingly enough the ones with the most problems were higher end 700's including one custom shop KS.

To say the post 64 model 70's bolt is brazed on is way over simpolifying things.
The bolt body is knurled and the bolt handle and a copper washer are pressed on with a interference fit. The whole works is heated in a furnace and the copper fuses the body and handle piece together. This is a very secure joint.

Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,473

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Quote:
But lets use the Win model70 extreme weather & the tikka t3 stainless as examples.Why is the win. about twice as much? Is it built twice as good as the tikka? Yes. Are the materials used that much better? Yes.

Materials used, manufacturing process, fit and finish, Over all quality, etc...

Comparing these two rifles.
Stocks -
Winchester is a solid fiber glass, aramid, and graphite filled stock with aluminum bedding block, aluminium reinforced wrist, with a Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and epoxy gel coat. The tikka stock is injection molded polymer with a hard rubber recoil pad.

Receiver -
*Winchesters actions are sized to the length of the cartridge. Tikka is one size fits all.
*Winchester has a controled round feed bolt and claw extractor. Tikka is a push feed bolt. *Winchester has a coned breech face. Tikka has a 90 degree bolt face.
*Winchesters safety is vastly superior to any safety currently on any other bolt action rifle.
*Winchesters bottom metal is real metal. Tikka's is polymer.
*Winchester has an integrated recoil lug machined into the receiver. Tikka's recoil lug is a piece of metal pressed into the stock that fits a slot milled into the receiver.

Just to name a few.

Comparing these two rifles is like comparing a bottle of fine wine with a some Boons Farm you get from the grocery store.



IMO here's some reasons that this isn't a ford vs chevy thing.I believe some rifles are just better built than others.Betterdesigns,better materials,ect......

Then you haven't been around many M700s...

Ben, I get a half-dozen or more 700s in every year with extractor's broken or worn to the point of failure.. I rarely have to replace a M70 extractor - whether PF or CRF actions..



Good post - and right on.... Kudos..

Dawn,Go fire a hot load in your beloved pre-64M 70, then post a picture of your eye and tell us how superior they are in design...

Never seen the draw to the model 70, especially pre-64's, they took a 1898 technology and went backwards with it, but somehow get praise for it..but to each their own. (i'm sure this will start a chit storm)

C'mon that comparison is skewed slightly in the M70's favor by picking the Tikka T3. A cheaper, crappier rifle would be hard to find until you get to the ATR's and Raptors.

Folks seem to love them but I couldn't feel it at all.

The 700 vs. 70 argument is a better match IMO.

I wonder how hard a fix it is to replace the flimsy paper mache Remington extractor that seems to fail after only minimal use? and the bolt handle issue is another non-issue that I have never witnessed. Remington builds and sells more rifles in this country than perhaps the rest of the rifle makers (including Winchester) put together, with the sheer volume of rifles put out by Remington it stands to reason there will be more reported failures, hell there's 10 times more of these rifles out there than any other single brand, if Winchester sold anywhere near the volume of rifles Remington does more of their bolt handles would come off too along with other quality issues and failures it's the nature of the beast. The guy's saying you can't unload a Model 700 with the safety on don't know enough about the rifle to even comment here, that seems to be a problem on any forum, too many people comment on things they aren't qualified to say a word about............Hb

Let me explain the nature of the post you quoted.Because i can see where it's confusing.I pulled it off another site,i believe the title of the thread was "what makes one rifle better than another". The poster was using a higher level rifle {winchester} vs a lower end rifle {tikka} to compare some of the manufacturing process which makes one more costly and in esence a better built rifle than the other.

I think you are correct if you were to compare the 700 vs model 70 it's much more of a closer comparison

Got it.

Thanks.

The best bet is to get a 700, but tell the wackos at the 'Fire that you got a 70. That way everybody will be happy.

Being lefty I owned a bunch of Remington 700s over the years, acquired various tools for working on them, etc. I like them a great deal. But I have shifted almost completely to Win 70 for my big game applications because I think it is a more robust/field compatible design. I still use 700s for varmint/short action applications; I think a 700-based gun can be lighter; I think a trued 700 will generally be more accurate than a trued 70. I have had a 700 bolt handle pop off. I really don't think the new Winchester MOA trigger is an improvement because the old design was simpler and more robust. The new trigger merely inherits all of the liabilities shared by all other enclosed trigger designs. I think 70 barrel contours are too long and heavy. But I just can't get excited about building a hunting gun off a 700 any more.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference what materials are used in construction or what design is superior to another if tight manufacturing tolerances are not maintained and critical parts are all geehawed out of whack with one another. This is where Remington and New Haven often fell flat on their faces. Either one can be straightened out and manufacturing flaws corrected but unfortunately far too many need a fair bit of rebuilding before they amount to much. I don't like buying rifle kits that need rebuilding in order to perform as they should and in that regard Tikka/Sako have it all over mainstream American products IME.

Aren't the M70 receivers cast?

They are forged and machined according to the latest brochure.

No! You must are confusing the M70 with Ruger, the M70 receiver is a forged and then machined to shape.

The MRC is a cast receiver, I have read reports but have not confirmed that the newer Sako's are a cast receiver also.

drover

Thanks for the clarification. My bad, meant to say forged (vs. machined), too much beer yesterday.

Funny!!!..............Hb

own em all shoot em all love em all

I have a M700 BDL at my gunsmith right now with a broken extractor, he has been trying to get a replacement from Remington since mid October. I have 13 m700's & 7 m70's. A few of the M70's were bought new, none of the Remingtons were bought new. If I was going to buy a new gun it would be a M70, if used my 1st choice would be a M700KS if I could find/afford 1 if not I'd buy a SAKO L61, AIII or AV for about $650.

you can have a replacement from brownells in about 2 days..

No question, the M70!!!

Take a tour of the Rem factory and watch them chamber a 700...

Exactly what makes an investment cast receiver inferior to a forged and machined one, for all practical purposes. Those damned cast Rugers keep on tick'n and tak'n a lick'n. And they look pretty damn good too. I have owned and used both for many years and functionally and visually, there's no difference.

Just remember, everything sucks except old Winchesters, Sako's and rifles with names that you can't pronounce. Military and LE snipers, long range target champions and the majority of hunters are full of crap. (Good post, by the way. )

[bleep] the M70.

Oh no, now you went and done it. I hope you are wearing your nomex underware.....

Just from my experience, I have hunted with my M70 classic (circa 1994) exclusively and never had a problem. In the last few years I bought a few Remington model 700 and 7's and none feel as good as my old Model 70. Have a new Model 70 ftw in 7mm-08 that I am thinking about trading but only for another FN Model 70 ftw but in 243 (guess I'm a recoil wuss in my old age lol). Both are great, but I just like my Model 70 the best, but really, you wont go wrong with either.

I know, none of you guys have seen a remington 700 with extraction problems. Ok, I've had one remington 722 300 savage

(pic of the actual rifle)
with extraction problems and it was a nightmare finding another extractor, I had a new remington 700 bdl that was one of the nicest rifles I've ever owned, have extractor problems, I've also had another new remington 700 that didn't want to chamber factory ammo: After it fired on it's own I took it back to the gunshop I bought it from and had them send it too a factory authorized service center and when it came back I sold it. The same went for the others I had problems with. I guess I've just been very unlucky with remingtons and lucky with model 70's (never had a problem with a model 70 of any kind that I can think of). That's why I vote model 70........

If you can only own one, the Winchester. Since this makes three, then you can always bring at least two, so it doesn't matter.

I hunt with Remington 700/7s but always have back up. I've only had one bolt handle pop loose so I trust them.

(For those who don't trust cast steel...ever try to blow one up? Cast steel ain't cast iron ain't cast aluminum...)

Both rifles are capable of extreme accuracy. You can get lucky with a new rifle that is an exceptional shooter but its not usually the norm. I hope accuracy is not your only requirement. If you are a gun nut like all of us and can't leave well enouph alone you'll find an excuse to throw money at your mechanical children untill you find it necessary to adopt another one. The Rem.700 is cheaper to manufacture and any descent gunsmith can work on it with little expenditure in money, but some of the 700 custom clones can run you over $1200 just for the action. If you are a paper shooter/long range that's the easiest way to go. The Win 70 classic which was reengineered by the Miller Co. of Tucson AZ. and reintroduced in the early 90's has the vent holes in the bottom of the bolt to take care of hot gas issues .....problem solved if you buy a Win. 70, get one with the Classic designation. Winchester actions have more to them in design inherited from the 98 Mauser and they are all for a purpose designed for war, since they are more complex not every gunsmith knows how to tweak them and many butcher them. Machined actions are smoother and feel better in operation, cast actions are just as strong and have been unfairly labeled as week as long as you look on who is doing the casting process and not all are the same. Ruger firearms are tanks and they have it down well they also do work or used to cast Mrc 1999 actions. There is a lot of subcontracting work between gun companies than any of us will ever know. As for safeties I like the strong and tight tang safeties such as the ones seen on double rifles or shotguns, but I strongly dislike the ones on Rem. 700 or Sakos, try to walk through the alders or any brushy area especially dangerous game area while chambered and keep the safety on safe, it always manages to silently creep to the fire position, its an accident waiting to happen. I love the Win. three position safety, its always positive and safe. Extractors is another sore subject with a lot of people but it is extremely important and must be understood. The tiny Rem. extractor is plenty and lots of people use it for a life time and not have a problem, and some people might not put a box of ammo through their rifle in a year or two and never feel the urge or need for something different. UNTILL something serious happens then you'll swear your never going to put yourself in that predicement again, when you know bigger , stronger extractors with larger purchase exist that will grip the case and not tear and leave an empty case in the chamber with no chance to reload! If you hunt guided with a couple of guns of substantial caliber waiting to pull you out of a jam then it's a no problem in fact you can hunt with a single shot . I personally hunt alone without that luxury. I had Sako Av and 700 and both double fed and thats a nono. Some companies such as Cooper greatly enhanced the feeding design from the magazine and solved the issue, not Rem. 700's. One issue with the 700 that hit the news a couple of years ago was the lawsuits against Rem. for many fatalities due to the rifle firing when you close the bolt after chambering with the safety engaged. It was cheaper to pay the families who can afford to sue than recall all 700's, shame on them they will never see a penny of my money. Winchester prior to shutting down in N.H. had old machinery that needed replacement quality was iffy but the design was great. I prefer the old trigger compared to the Fn. and the S.C. rifles are not made in left hand which I am, so they wont see my money either. That's the problem with genuine American companies owned by foreign entities with bean counters making decisions. My advice find a Win. 70 NH that has been worked on or customized and is being offered for sale used by the good folkes on the fire and don't look back. It's all about choices and this one is yours to make. Best of luck.

Excellent post and spot on..

I ignored that obviously uneducated (or trolling) post from yesterday.. Easier on the blood pressure that way..

I always bring a backup rifle with me,usally my Marlin 336.I've never had an issue with my Rem. 78 or 700 but it just seems,IMO, that the Winchester paid a little closer attention to details.

Just curious,i've seen the bolt handle on a few rems. pop off,would it make sense to buy a spare bolt or are they to expensive?

MLF,thank-you for education, that was an informative post.I'm not a gun looney,just want another "tool" in my shed. I only own 2 rifles,Rem. 700 & Marlin 336 so i want another bolt that i can use for whitetail and maybe a occasional elk hunt.

It won't start a shidt storm, but I hear this all the time about pre 64 M70's....yet I personally know a lot of pre 64 shooters,one fellow a Match shooter with a pair of palma guns through which he had put close to 150,000 rounds and several barrels...if he ever lost an eye to a pre 64 M70 I never heard of it....I know guys who have shot game all over this continent and globally for that matter, with pre 64's.

If case lets go, could you have a problem? Sure! My answer is don't do stupid things with handloads and you won't have a problem!

How do I know? Because I have put tens of thousands of rounds through pre 64's.

The Kimber action (everyone's darling lightweight)is a basically a slimmer, smaller M70 in many respects....pull the bolt,look at the left lug raceway, the bolt stop, the cocking piece shroud....it doesn't offer any more gas protection in the event of a blown case than a M70....but you never hear anyone say anything about that.... Better than a M70? Talk to me in 60 years....

The M70 technology is ala M98 with Springfield breeching....the Mauser may be the best of all in purest form.

The safety? Well if you aren't possessed of four thumbs and have the dexterity one step above a tree sloth,it can thumbed off in a heart beat....I meet the previous qualifications and have shot "jumped" game with M70's with seconds to react and shoot;even did it year befor last at the age of 60 after a long stalk...and when carrying "hot", I always have the safety fully back.

Triggers? In a rifle meant for BG hunting, nothing comes close to a M70 original for dependability and durability...unless maybe a military Mauser.

As Savage 99 notes, the safety disengages the sear when fully back;locks the bolt handle down. This is helpful as a pal who dotes on Rem 700's found out while still hunting a New Hampshire cedar swamp,when he saw buck,threw off the safety,fired, and no "bang".......turns out he had not paid attention and the bolt handle worked its' way "up"...the sear released with a dull "clunk". That really sucks.....

You can fall, gum up an action with dirt, have it load with snow and freeze up....that M70 bolt can be pulled apart in the field, stripped and cleaned(without the dime you left on the dashboard in the pickup),the action cleaned up and rinsed off.Or that frozen gunk on the firing pin stuffed in a pocket to thaw out.

Extractor breaks? Bring a spare along!I just had one fit to my 375 to include with my "kit"....might never need it.Just swap it out. The hunt continues even if it's back at camp in the middle of no where........shidt happens! Bust a Rem 700 out in the boonies....see what happens.It's your hunt!

I'm watching the bedded buck through the bins about 300 yards away,when the rifle cracks,dust kicks up just below him, and he takes off (wounded?). I expect more rifle shots but instead my pal yells,"I'm stuck! Shoot him".....Which I did.

My pal is fumbling with the rifle....clears the jam, the Rem extractor tore through the rim of the case,leaving the fired empty in there.Like I said, shidt happens!

I do like Remingtons,and Rugers,and Kimbers,and Sako's....but I hunt with a M70 or a mauser, because I can only carry one rifle at a time....YMMV.

'Nother 'spot-on' post..

Kudos..


But ya hafta unnerstan' Bob, many times common sense eludes a lot of Remmy owners..













More gas on the flames...









Heheheheee.e.

Just FYI toad,

The older original design model 700s safety locked the bolt down.
You can not open the bolt with a round in the chamber.
I still have a few that are like that, and it doesn't bother me, but I never let the kids, etc. use them.
Remington changed this later on and even recalled them at one time.
Maybe Savage_99 isn't so stupid............

Ted

Exactly.. Had one in for that frozen trigger two weeks ago and the owner had me modify the safety to allow a bolt lift with safety on..

Takes about ten minutes, tops..

no [bleep]? you mean if this is an issue to you, you just get the recall done?

and yes he is.

see, i used to be a big M70 fan 'till i realized that the extra 1#-1.5# that comes with them is just fluff. Kimber does the 3 position safety and claw extractor without the weight penalty.

Kimbers ain't exactly problem free...

The fluff you refer to is taken out of the action, bolt and barrel.

I'll take mine on the fluffy side:



Hold the bs though....

safe queen pics always prove a point.

My 300 ultra with a 4.5-14 zeiss on it weighs a around 8lbs all up. You can have a rifle that weighs much less than that.

I never really thought about the weight difference between the Mod 70 and the Mod 700 but it is quite significant. In the areas I hunt Whitetail's I do relish a light rifle, I just hope that after I hike into these remote areas I hunt that when the time comes my damn bolt handle don't break off! or God forbid I need a back-up shot and My damn cardboard extractor disintegrates like dust! that would be a real bitch ..............Hb

Now that made me smile!

What does a Kimber 84L Montana in 270 weigh,scoped? Anyone know?

Had to file/grind off a few safety levers myself Redneck....

Not sure if Remington still does it or not, but they used to have you send in your rifle and they wanted you to pay them to change it.
HECK OF A DEAL !

Not sure exactly Bob. I've loaded ammo for and shot four of them, but never weighed any.
Just an educated guess, but I'd say in the high 6lb range to the low 7lb range depending on what type/weight scope and mounts you use.

PS: Rumor has it that Kimber will soon be doing further weight reduction measures by removing the barrel lands and going smoothbore.
They hope it will improve their accuracy and tighten groups

ME TOO..

Good idea!

Brad told me these 84L's would shoot and looks like they will. I have only shot one, but it shot good ina pretty brief range session....no screwy fliers and sub MOA. There was a report on an 84L Montana in Rifle Shooter Mag,280AI. Looks like it wanted to shoot good.


Mmmm...............just what I need...another lightweight synthetic stocked rifle...

Remington did the recall on the 660 I have. The gent discovered the rifle fired when the bolt closed (dry fired) and insisted on having it fixed before I bought it. I told him to contact Remington because there was a recall years ago. Remington sent him a link to print shipping labels and info for free shipping to a repair facility. Remington installed a new trigger without the bolt lock. The turn around was quite fast. I installed a new safety made by NULA that automatically locks the bolt with the safety on but allows you to unlock the bolt with the safty on.

You know you can never have enough lightweight rifles Bob .

In all fairness to the Montana, one of the ones I worked with was a good shooter as it came from the factory.
Another became a very good shooter with some barrel channel tweeking, bedding, etc.
The other two guys just couldn't take time to fix anything, and are still running around wounding or missing what they are shooting at as far as I know .
Seems to me you shouldn't have to work on so many for what Kimber charges for them .
From what I understand Kimber is doing better quality control these days, so consistancy should be better.
I personally prefer my Sako Finnlight in stainless/synthetic,
and it was a real shooter out of the box - But was even more money .

By the way, it's a 270 W,
Ted

Years ago when they first had the recall going on they wanted you to send the rifle, along with $20.00 for their trouble to change the safety where it wouldn't lock the bolt .
Later on they started supplying shipping labels, etc. .

FYI - All that has to be changed or worked on is the lever you push.
It has a lip on it that won't allow the bolt handle to come up when pulled back on safe position.

I've heard stories of lots of them going off when you close the bolt, but the only ones I've seen personally with that problem are ones that someone who didn't know what they were doing had been making trigger adjustments on -Generally the sear adjustment .

Best,
Ted

Bob thanks for the idea of carrying an extra extractor, there is always room to learn. I will start doing the same they could save the day on deep wilderness hunts, most likely will never use but it pays to be prepared. On the subject of bolt handles. I was pig hunting with a friend in mid october 2003, 8am, 70 degrees a group of pigs went by I shot a large boar I lift the bolt handle on my Sako AV using factory 7mm rem mag. fail safe 160 grain ammo and tried to pull back to no avail the bolt would not budge. I quickly put the butt stock on the ground, pointed the rifle away from me and kicked the bolt handle hard twice with my right foot before the bolt released extracting the case. Luckily I was not charged. I give credit to Sako the bolt handle did not brake and the extractor held up. Even if the rifle was a Mauser or Win. CRF with a claw extractor if the bolt handle brakes then the extractor is useless no matter the type. That's why some custom action builders will build a bolt handle that is integral with the bolt , granted not cheap. But a quality rifle should be built correctly before it ever leaves the factory if in dought a good gunsmith can rectify the problem with proper welding. A rifle is only good as its week part you never can predict when murphy will strike. The irony is I carried the same rifle six weeks earlier on an Alaskan moose float hunt on the penninsulla in the company of large brown bears. I've shot a few black bears in Kalifornia the largest was 7ft 4" nose to tail and these Ak. bears made him look like a cub, they have my full respect and when you're parting tulies with the muzzle you better have full confidence in your rifle. Thank god I didn't have any problems. It made me revamp my equipment.