Hi, I am trying to decide between 4 rifles/makes for a dangerous game rifle to be used in AK. and Africa.
I want open sights and will mount a TR24G: AccuPoint 1-4x24 30mm Riflescope with BAC, Green Triangle Reticle.

The guns are CZ Safari Classic Custom Shop Magnum Express; the Sako 85 Kodiak; the Weatherby Mark V Dangerous Game Custom(would've chose their Safari Custom but at 2x the price, for what seems to just be a wood stock over composite???); and last but certainly not least at double to triple the cost of the others; the McMillan Prestige DG Custom Rifle, all in .375 H&H.

Three of them seem to be this sort of "hybrid" version of a controlled round feed (CRF) or hybrid between that and a push feed (PF) action, the McMillan Prestige, Sako 85 Kodiak and the Weatherby DG Custom?
The CZ Safari Classic Express, I know is a classic Mauser type CRF.

I think the 3 rifles, other than the CZ, are slicker rifles, with better "fit & finish", certainly the McMillan at $6500. is a true hand built & honed custom shop gun, as is to a lesser degree, the Weatherby.
Sako is a production gun, I believe, and the CZ "Safari Classic: is partially "custom shop" as I spoke to the shop and they said in .375 H&H (as oppose to larger more custom calibers) the gun is mad in Czechoslovakia just like the cheaper CZ550, and then a better stock and barrel band plus for the .375, shorten the barrel to 20".
But kinda scary (CZ custom shop guy) when they do not even know that gun has the barrel shortened to 20" hence along with new stock & swivel, the $1400.up-charge.

The CZ and Sako is in the same price range ($2k-2.5k) , the Weatherby $3300-3500(w/options) and the McMillan is way more @ $6650., but looks like a terrific hi-tech functional work of art.

Of course...there is this traditionalist "true" CRF ONLY for DG vs. PF or it doesn't matter "thing"...???
I don't know?

What say you?
Thanks

The CZ 550 American Safari Magnum, 375 H&H, open sights, Kevlar stock is a bit over $1650 retail and IMO the better of the four...

But I'm only a lowly squirrel hunter

Hard to beat the CZ.

at least so say the legions on African PHs who bet their behinds on them...

For around $1,200, you can have a brand new Winchester M70 Safari Classic or Alaskan. I'm not sure why that's not in the conversation. Throw in a Cerakote job and a McMillan stock, and you're still likely under or around $2k. It's true CRF, and it isn't a compromise gun in any way. I took a standard Mark V to Africa in .375, and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again (DG or no), but FN may be cranking out the best gun for the money right now with the new M70.

I own a Mark V, a Sako 85, and a new Model 70. Of the three, the M70 is every bit as much gun at a whole lot less money.
IMHO, the CZs are overrated. I know they have a cult following, but I just don't get it. Sure, they're beefy and strong, but the fit and finish are another world away from any of the others.

What he said - to the max...

I'm going to get crushed by the legions of CZ lovers on this site, so let me clarify my remarks:

There's nothing wrong with a CZ. However, the ones that I've handled would need some attention to be on par with the other rifles mentioned. The actions are rough, they weigh a million pounds, and the fit and finish are uninspiring in this era of CNC machining. Solid rifles, but they are what they are. Now, there are outfits out there that will take your CZ and turn it into a work of art, and that's all good and well. However, the M70 is a $1,200 work of art when you take it from the box.

If you told me that you were on a budget and needed a DG rifle, we'd be having an altogether different conversation; the CZ would be a serious contender (though I'd still point you to toward the M70). You could buy a CZ for an excellent price and spiff it up over time as money allowed. However, the fact that you're looking at the Mark V and the HS Precision tells me that money isn't an object, and I would honestly choose the new Winchester over either of them.

The CZ is a good rifle that will get better with use (and some fine tuning). The M70 is a GREAT rifle right out of the box. The Sako, HS Precision, and Weatherby Mark V DG are all excellent rifles that will leave you wanting for nothing, but they're all going to cost you and they are absolutely no better than the new M70.

Hmmm, interesting, I kinda wrote off the Winchester right along with the Remingtons, because I had a bunch of guys on TWO other forums, tell me that BOTH Rem & Win have slid downhill quality wise ( fit & finish & reliability )
and not being familiar with these, actually bolt action hunting rifles in general ( though I have done a ton of research on them lately )
And coming from a tactical HG background I have only owned one bolt rifle in the past, a Weatherby Lazermark and loved it, especially that Weatherby "action" and thick, slick, tight bolt with no slop like others have...?

I would like to HEAR more about the Win M70 from those who own recent ones, the ones the company currently make as I will be buying "new".
I hear about these "pre-64" models ...on & on & on?

With reliability it is "is" or "is not".

With fit and finish you can have a modifier.

The CZ is revered for its reliability and fit - back from the times of the ZKK actions and stocks.

A nice finish is just that - nice to have, but never needed - and prone to fade, when the rifle get used in such fashion that makes the CZ shine ITFP.

Heck, might get some milage guiding with a nice rifle and babying it up and down the mountain instead of keeping eyes out for game and client.

Making sure it is nice and dry and clean instead of chefing up the Mountain House.

Putting it inside the plane and strapping clients rifle to the wing strut.

:-)

so what is all this talk I am hearing about Winchester as a company, going "downhill" and hence, their products?

The Model 70 is likely the most reliable repeating rifle ever taken to Africa in measurable numbers. If you don't believe me, just ask any experienced PH you can find.

There are other good ones out there, but to suggest that others (like the CZ) are somehow better or more reliable is laughable.

There are people (our own Redneck is one) who do not like the new trigger on the FN, mostly because the old one was so good that it makes one wonder, why change? The new FN Model 70s that I have seen and handled are at least the equal of the New Haven models in terms of fit and finish and way better than the USRA rifles.

I took a Weatherby Mark V S/S in .375 H&H to Africa, but never shot any dangerous game with it. However, it worked very well--so well that I spent another $900 to have it accurized by Hill Country Rifles and bedded in a McMillan classic stock. At that point, I had about $1,500 in the rifle, not counting the scope and mounts.

For about $2,000 in today's dollars, you could do the same thing with a Model 70 or a Mark V and have a rifle that would do anything that you ask of it. I have no doubt that the McMillan Prestige DG Custom rifle is worth the coin, but there are more economical alternatives that will work just as well.

If I was going to buy a 375 or 416 I agree with you, but I can tell you when you get to the big boys (450 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery) the M70s seem a bit on the flimsy side to me. The CZs do come a little rough as far as the action goes, it costs about $80 to smooth them up. My CZ feels solid, smooth and feeds and extracts fast/slow right side up / upside down but it did need a bit of work.




I wouldn't sell it or trade it for anything less than one of these

Hartmann & Weiss 505 Gibbs? I'm dreamin.....

Here's an article about DG rifles by Don Heath, an African PH who is now working for Norma ammunition. Very opinionated but based on his own observations and experience:

http://www.africahunting.com/firear...rofessional-hunter-proficiency-exam.html

Thanks Jlin222, that's the article that convinced me to buy a CZ as my first dangerous game rifle. I had lost the link.

That's probably a fair point. I don't think I'd ever feel compelled to carry anything larger than a 416 in a repeating rifle anyway. That's double territory as far as I'm concerned, but that's just me.

So I take it nobody likes the Weatherbys, so what about the Sako & McMillan, both makers say their guns are DG CRF only just not "Mauser" style???

I rather think that you are going about this the wrong way. It seems you want to buy a new gun, and want one that is 100% ready to go and reliable for dangerous game. I do not think any such gun really exists. I think even the best design needs to spend some time in the hands of a gunsmith who is good with that design, and can make sure that individual weapon is as close to 100% reliable as possible, and then 200-300 rounds of shooting it either proves or disproves that hope.

For me, that is one of the Classic Win 70s tuned up. I cannot offer insight into the CZs because I am left handed and they are not.

So you must differntiate between the design and the individual specimen. You will not be carrying a design. I agree with the premise that perhaps a bad design precludes 100% reliability in difficult use, but contend that a good design does not ensure it.

utah708, I agree with you 100%. I went through the same process with my left handed oldest son, buying him a safari rifle for his "getting out" present after 4 years in the Army, 3 with the 3rd Ranger Battalion. To make it a little more complicated he wanted a 375 H&H Stainless / Synthetic CRF since he wants to go to Alaska to brown bear hunt. After much searching I found a LH Winchester M70 stainless / synthetic classic in 416 Remington. I was going to rebarrel it for him, but he decided he liked the 416. I had my gunsmith (who fixed my 500 Jeffery feeding problem) go through it with a fine tooth comb. He also added a recoil reducer, and Cerakoted it. We've taken it to the range (we shoot about every two weeks and always shoot our big bores offhand). It also passes the 50 dummy round magazine test (feed and extract a full magazine, slow and fast, right side up and upside down). Not about to allow my first born hunt dangerous game with a rifle not up to the task. We plan to put a 1.5 - 5x Leupold on it with Talley QR rings (Cerakoted of course).

Went to check out the new Win M70. Totally uninspiring.
However, the Sako was magnificent, though.
Can't wait to get my hands on the McMillan Prestige & Mauser M 03,I can only imagine how slick they will be compared to these Wally world Wins & Rems I see around town.

I think you'd better listen carefully to what Utah7/08 and Colorado have to say.It is pretty apparent to me that you don't know much about DG rifles, if you are running around town declaring Sako's as "magnificent" and M70's as "uninspiring".Especially considering one of the top makers of DG rifles in the country today builds them on M 70 actions;not Sakos.Another use many Mausers 98 styles.

You should also pay attention to what guys like Phil Shoemaker,John Barsness (on here), and Don Heath have to say about DG rifles ,and what they actually use,because these guys deal with this stuff all the time and have shot lots of dangerous animals.

Comparisons made in a sporting goods store are worthless....the reason is simple.No matter how "inspired" you are in the store,if a rifle does not function perfectly,every single time, you could get killed.

Beyond any shadow of a doubt I'd not go with any of your options. I would build!

M70 CRF action

One of D'Arcy's Legend handles

Barrel that would mic .65" when cut to 23" (tons of good barrels to choose from)

Talley

Optics=1-5 Leo or 6x36 Leo w/dotz


I'd buy a bunch of bullets, shoot a minimum of 500 rounds a year thru it. I'd hunt yotes, deer, and tweety's as much as I could with it and then get to filling arks.

This stuff is only rocket science if we choose to make it so.

Dober

For some of us, building a rifle is more advanced than we want to go (although some campfire loonies make it seem like something they do most days before breakfast.) But your blueprint is certainly a sound one, Mark.

I can absolutely see the attraction to Sakos; they are well made rifles with a nice feel. The scope mounting system is sound. The trigger is more complex than I might like on a DG gun. I can't remember if a Sako safety blocks the pin, or merely the trigger.

I still think the key is that no gun is truly ready to go as a DG gun just as it comes from the factory. They all need tweaking, bedding inspected/redone, feed & function testing, cycling/polishing of bolt raceways and feed ramp, trigger tuning/safety timing, perhaps a different pad/LOP, scope base screws re-threaded to 8-40, open sights decided upon, and probably some things that aren't occurred to me just now. Then it is ready to rely upon.

I have a Brown Precision Elite Hunter in .375 H&H, built on a LH Rem 700 action. It predates the era when Lh M70s were available. Even though the 700 is not super high on the list of preferred DG actions, this gun is durn near flawless because of the attention to all these details. List price on such a gun today would be around $5k, and I would gladly take it on a brown bear hunt.

In the end, I think I will go with what a real "PRO" knows and not campfire "legends" , read his email to me;
"The CRF vs PF is strictly a matter of personal opinion. The majority of rifles used to take dangerous game are push feed. That is because the majority of the rifles made today are push feed. Our actions are smooth and dependable wherther CE+RF or PF so I all just depends on what you want. Then there is another choice as well. Three position safety as opposed to trigger safety. You can have either regardless of whether you choose PF or CRF. Some like the simplicity of off and and on, along with the ease of setting the safety with your thumb while in firing position. It�s a little farther reach for the 3PS. 3PS advantage is locking the bolt closed in the 3rd position. With either safety you can work the bolt with the safety on which allows you to remove a chambered round while the safety is one.

I am going to Mozambique in October for Cape Buffalo and I am taking a Prestige with 3PD and CRF in .404 Jeffrey. I just happened to build this rifle in the �traditional African Dangerous Game style because it is a traditional ADG cartridge. I would be just as comfortable using a Heritage in .416 Rem with PF and trigger safety."

Kelly D. McMillan
Director of Operations
McMillan Group International, LLC
623-582-9635
1638 W Knudsen Dr
Phoenix, Arizona 85027
McMillan Integrity-Global Vision
www.mcmillanusa.com

Become a fan of McMillan on facebook
http://www.facebook.com/McMillanGroupInternational

You used to be bullets4yogi, right?

No, what are you talking about???

So you're going to listen to the opinion of a sales person who is trying to sell you his product, over the voice of unbiased experience of several guys who have been there and done that, and are NOT trying to sell you anything?

I hate to say this, but one phrase comes to mind: A fool and his money are soon parted...

The reason why the CZ 550/Brno 602 has tended to be more popular amongst professional hunters vs the M70 largely comes down to a a very small issue - the Winchester 3 position safety. I know it is one of THE most lauded attributes of the M70 back home, but it may not be the best safety for a DGR and it is actually not particularly popular outside of north america. The variation on the Ruger is worse.

IMO (and the opinion of a lot of folks who have done a lot more DG hunting than myself) on a DGR a simple push forward two position safety is more desireable.

It is a very small issue, but it is THE most frequently given reason for favouring other mauser-type actions over the M70.

Just buy a Ruger Alaskan 416 Ruger and have the action blueprinted and trigger tuned.

Otherwise just go up the scale and get a CZ Safari Classic special with a broughton barrel in something like a 404 Jeffery.

I like my Whitworth Express 458. You can still find them and they are pretty nice. They form the basis for Old Ugly from Phil.

Sincerely,
Thomas

I am sure the McMillan is a magnificent rifle, but it is simply beyond my price range. The functional difference between CRF and PF is probably over done, certainly with the 375 H&H which is an easy case to feed and extract. I would rather a bolt blocking safety.

I would want a bolt that could be field stripped without tools. I would want an extractor that could be changed out in the field without tools. Avoiding a box style trigger would be nice, as they can get both African sand and Alaskan ice in them, and it would be doubly good if the trigger could be replaced in the field. And of course one needs to have these spare parts in your kit, or the ability to change them out does no good.

Brand preference comes down to affordability, comfort, and familiarity. Competency comes through use. My major hunting rifles (7 RM, 30-06, 338 Win, 375 H&H, and 416 Rem) are all on Lh M70s, so it is easy enough for me to transition from one to the other. Time spent with one helps create muscle memory that is transferable to the others.

I wish you all the best with this rifle.

I thought the same thing.

When I see large numbers of African and Alaskan pro's lugging McMillan and Sako rifles to bet their lives on, I'll think about other brands. Until then,it'll be older M70's and Mausers.CRF was "invented" by Paul Mauser and the hard fact is no one has really improved on it since then in a manually operated bolt gun.

In all liklihood a guy will have no problem with something else,but I will hedge bets based on decades of use and the majority opinion.....if you end up with an empty chamber because you short stroked under stress,or some trick extractor jumped the rim of a fired case,you could have a problem.

Folks are entitled to their own views based on cruising catelogs...I'll go with what works based on long history and the expeiences of guys who see this stuff day in and day out over decades of experience.

JMHO.Wish the OP good luck in his choice.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=655478

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6479844/11

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8093037&postcount=12

My thoughts exactly. I've read enough to not waste any more time on this post.

Doubt this is Phil's grizz rifle, but he does use a PF in Alaska so I'd think that there are some PF, boxed trigger designs that work up there.

Sig,

There were some real Pro's who gave you advice. What you do with it is your choice. I ain't a Pro, but my choice would be a reliable Model 70 first, followed by a Whitworth 375. By the way. I hunted Grizzly the first time with a Remington push feed in 300 Weatherby. The next time with a Weatherby, 300 Weatherby and the last 2 times with a Model 70 Classic in 338 WM. I killed Grizzlies 3 out of the 4 times I've hunted them and none of those rifles let me down.

I think the most important factor in a DG rifle is the guy who squeezes the trigger. If your going to a "gun store" for advice, or seeking the advice of someone who sells guns, me thinks you need more experience.

Kelly McMillian is a fine honorable man, his son and partner, is a Navy SEAL, having served the las 7 yrs.
He is also a big game & DG hunter and goes to Africa more often than you dream about it!
He is NOT trying to sell me anything, In fact, for his Prestige model DGR, he DOES us a CRF, but also makes a PF for other models they make and like many others, who have taken scores of Grizzly, Brown and African Big 5 with a PF have said...IT DOES NOT MATTER, it is just "romantic tradition", both can JAM, short strock, break etc. Wise up.

Don't know what that 1st link is but it is not me.

Seems to me you have made your choice. Go buy it. Please post pictures.

Truth be told - I do not think you really came here for advice or intend to purchase any such rifle, lest looking to use one, but rather to stir the pot.

Sorry, wrong on both counts.
Will post the photos with me, rifle & dated paper when time comes, to sooth your skeptic heart.
Stir the pot?
Far as I can tell the POT on this forum is always swirling to the point of boiling & spilling over

liar.

Ditto. Or you'll soon be broke.

Even the most fine, honourable man, that has something to sell you, will have his honest opinions biased towards what he's trying to sell.

Thats a mighty big assessment for 4 days and fifteen posts.

You must have been lurking...

Yeah, he's going to do real well here, I can just tell already

He might be better off getting his feet wet with a couple of cop hater threads or claiming Ron Paul is out next President in the "Hunters Campfire" forum (which doesn't have any hunters in there any more anyway).