I decided to start this thread after going through the "Bullet Failure" thread. I just wanted to take a moment to show the difference between a bullet that loses it's core or one that holds together. What I have found is that the difference between the two can be very little.

This bullet is a 65 SGK fired out of a 223 Rem just south of 3000fps. The impact was at 50 yards and the target media was water jugs. I fired a total of 6 shots into jugs. The first three shots were fired into jugs with a 3/4" plank of red oak plywood taped to the front of the first jug. The last three were without. Interestingly, bullet performance was indestinguishable between the jugs with the plywood and the jugs without. There was no discernible expansion occuring in the plywood. The bullets penetrated the same number of jugs as well.

So here is one of the bullets;

as you can see, the expansion is dramatic and the core and jacket are intact. This is how I recovered the bullet from the gallon jugs.
Another picture


While handling the bullet, the core promptly fell off.


As you can see, there is very little left of the core. The weight of the bullet now is 35 grains, so it lost nearly half it's weight.

As one person said in the failure thread, you don't see ads with just the jacket of the bullet and no core. He is right. But, look how easily a bullet which retained it's core can lose it's integrity.

This is why you match the bullet to the game and choose your shots accordingly. Even though this 65 SGK is not the toughest bullet out there, I think it will handle lung shots on does without a hitch.

I've seen strange things with bonded bullets and cup and core bullets. It just goes to show you that no single bullet strike is the same. Improve your odds using the appropriate bullet for the task and placing it in the right spot.

That's why the old timers used to use "heavy for caliber" bullets especially for the bigger game animals....Here's a 250 gr. sierra gameking that seperated after passing thru a bulls colar bone and busting its vertebrae. The core went out the far side (creating an exit wound) but the jacket was left up against the far side hide...This is from a 338 win mag at a modest velocity (alright it was slow ) of 2600 fps. It did put the bull down fast and did penetrate bone so what is failure and what isn't? The bull didn't even take a step (drt) so it was good enough for me:








I'll be using my 9.3x62 mm mauser this year so we'll see if the 286 gr. nosler partition is way overkill.....We know it will penetrate and hold together.....probably about 2 elks worth.....

I think the old heads were smart to use a heavier bullet for the caliber when more penetration was needed. I think the important thing to look at is achieving a velocity with a given bullet that will allow it to perform as desired. A lot of times that means loading up on bullet weight. When you drop the trivial desire for blazing fast velocity or shooting a deer at 700 yards, I think you can find that cup and core bullets of some sort or another will do just fine.

Never had a Barnes X, XLC, TSX or TTSX lose its 'core' ...

Sure, I could use a heavy for caliber bullet like the old timers, and I could drive up to the mountains in a model A pickup truck too. I CHOOSE however to use better equipment because my time in the hills is precious.

The desire for speed is not trivial, it is what has driven most of the cartridge development ofr the past 150 years, and rightly so. Flatter trajectories, lessened recoil and increased hydraulic effets of the bullet strike are all winners in my book.

I pick bullets that will penetrate enough to give me two holes everytime and then try to achieve a 2700fps STRIKING or impact speed for as far out there as I can get it as this is the threshold where even soft tissue can often become secondary missiles and hydraulic pressure upon the CNS often overcome all of the swithchwork in an animal and turn its lights to OFF, and right now. DRT, Bangflop, whatever you want to call it is my goal. Since switching to relatively light for caliber Barnes TTSX bullets lit by 70-90 grains of various propellants, depending upon caliber, I achieve these DRT/Bangflop events far more often than I used to and easily in the majority of cases.

Cup and core bullets on my loading bench are all varmint bullets or pistol bullets where they are still benchmark performers. OK, I have a small confession to make, just remebered that I DO have some cup and cores for my 348WCF, 250gr Barnes Originals, and hope to do some old timey hunting with them someday. But for serious work, there is much better out there and many great reasons to use them.

"Never had a Barnes X, XLC, TSX or TTSX lose its 'core' ..."

Not to be argumentative and I don't use mono's because I have never had trouble collecting deer with c&c's so my experience with them is nil, but for those of you that use mono's I pose a question. I read about their occasional penchant for failing to expand. So how many of you mono proponents have experienced this and wouldn't this count as a failure too? I sort of suspect this might be more common than expected but due to pass thru's it might not be recognized.

This weekend I shot two nilgai cows with my 375 Ruger using 300gr Sierra Game Kings loaded to about 2450 fps muzzle velocity. The first one hit right behind the shoulder, just like you'd shoot a whitetail. It fully penetrated with no notable performance issues other than a dead 350 lb cow. My second kill was a spinal shot, which completely severed the spine and caused core/jacket separation. I recovered the jacket, which appears to be very thick, and a small piece of the core. She of course dropped. Another gentleman in our group shot a cow square in the chest with a 150gr Winchester Ballistic Tip from a 30-06. It too separated, but the cow dropped without taking a step.

I know that premium bullets do have their place, particularly in allowing some cartridges to step up in killing capability. However, I do not believe that core/jacket separation is the difference in a clean kill or a lost animal. First, the only way anyone ever knows the core/jacket separated is by recovering the bullet from the animal (i.e., successful hunt). Second, in my experience, a piece of the core always exits and other pieces are found as shrapnel in the vital organs. Complete penetration with interior shrapnel. That's a dead animal folks, and until the day comes that I find an animal after a brutal extended tracking period in which it appears that core separation was the cause, I ain't gonna worry about it.

Never seen an X not expand, that said they do like speed.

Had an interesting conversation with a guy recently that had killed 200+ critters in Africa with Barnes bullets, he says he just laughs at all the 'they don't expand' blubber.

I like to load one bullet for tags and prefer a bullet that works when everything is wrong, not when everything is right.

If I spent the majority of my life hunting in a box, overlooking a feeder for deer I could likely 'wait' for that double lung shot, but then again I don't see myself ever moving away from busting shoulders.

I also spent my entire adult life moving every few years so I figured having one premium bullet load and one for playing only made sense.

Sort of wedded to the one gun/one bullet theory myself, but don't fiddle much with a hunting tool. Work up the load and move on. Other guns serve for amusement and fiddling around.

Bullets come in three basic forms. Lead, C'nC and premium so far as I'm concerned. Two of them won't shed a jacket. All of them have velocity ranges where they do their best work. My personal opinion is that for other than varmint work speeds outside the 2000-2700 fps range is not the place that serves to best advantage with C'nC bullets.

Exceptions? Sure, but I've not the time to test every little nuance of bullet performance, nor am I inclined to do so. Can you cover that with monometal bullets? Pretty much. Can you harden up some lead and do it with cast bullets? If you want, yes. Can you kill chitt(ok) dead with C'nC bullets? You betcha.

They all have baggage as well as advantage. Do what makes you happy, aim small and carry on.

bangeye-

My first experience with mono bullets was with the 7mm 160g Barnes XLC in my 7mm RM, launched at 3020fps. Results varied on coyotes, from very impressive damage with a spine hit to no entrance or exit wound that I could find at 100 yards (read �still good velocity�). Both dropped like a rock. In preparation for an elk hunt I used the XLCs on antelope and that was the end of my experimentation with them. Two through the lungs failed to kill it, although they did cause it to ay down as if sunning itself. Some 20-30 minutes later, after I had circled around for a closer shot, it struggled to its feet and started to walk away. A third through the heart finished it. After that experience I couldn�t bring myself to use TSX�s, either.

When the MRX and TTSX came out I gave them a try. So far results have been very good with most animals (deer and antelope, no elk yet) dropping straight down. So far we have not recovered any as all have exited regardless of angle, including a 180g MRX that penetrated a mule deer from front to back.

Failure to expand? So far we haven�t seen any sign of that with the TTSX or MRX. The tips seem to be doing what they are intended to do � promote very rapid expansion.

As to the high percentage of pass-thrus (100% for us so far), I suspect this is because the monos have less frontal area after expansion than typical C&C bullets.

Safariman, I know I have seen you mention the 2700+ fps impact velocity thing before. While I will not criticize your way of doiing things, I just want to know, what load combinations are you using that allow you to whack animals with that kind of velocity at distance? It just seems like you would be using magnum, long range type cartridges for relatively close range work. Not trying to be a jerk here, as I honestly believe in to each his own. Just curious as I have not looked at things the same way you have. Just trying to see the light.

I know some people will criticize me for the way I do things... My hunting experience basically peaks with deer and hogs. I would love to do more someday, but I just have to take life as it comes and an elk hunt hasn't been in the cards yet. Having said that, I do kill deer out of blinds, but I also kill just as many on foot. The ability to load and practice with a cartridge at a cost that keeps costs down is a matter of practicality for me. Between school, a mortgage payment, 3 and half dollar gas and a metabolism that forces me to eat anything that isn't tied down, I am fortunate enough to be able to fund the hobbies that I do have. I guess this just gos to show that individual reasoning for choosing a bullet is more important than hypothetical bullet performance.

Good post! Two thumbs up....some people travel,not just in the course of daily life and where they live, but to hunt as well.And don't hunt predictable,static,and familiar country every year.Seasons may take in more than one type of animal in unfamiliar country.

My first western hunt was in the Missour River breaks; I thought all western terrain looked like that;until I got to SW Colorado...then other places.

The post above by Jeffrey regarding ideal velocity is food for thought.....I wonder...how do we know exactly what that is going to be on any given hunt? It changes dramatically with distance.So does what may be expected of a bullet.

In the end, a premium for hunting and a "practice" bullet with the same POI and load proved more than satisfactory.This has never failed to work if I did my part.

That is all true, Sir. When I was stationed in California I hunted with a 7mm-08 and I didn't reload out there because I lived in the barracks. I did eventually get a reloading bench set up at a buddy's house, and by that time I was using a different rifle, but while hunting those SoCal mule deer that first year, I was forced to pay 40 dollars for a box of Winchester ballistics silver tips because ammo was in short supply for some reason at the time.

The way I try to attack the velocity issue is by increasing bullet weight in a given cartridge until I am at a good starting velocity. Judging by the bullet pictured in my OP, I think I am going to try the 70 grain Speer SP now. While I think the 65 SGK will work fine, I think a little more weight and a smidge less velocity might help a bullet hold together a little better. Of course, I could use a monometal, but that just isn't near as much fun.

Thanks Jeff.I see where you are coming from.

Actually, we could take a clue from the 'oldtimers' and know our bullets a bit better when applying them these days I think. In that respect they had it easier perhaps since they had fewer things to consider - fewer bullet choices- so going 'long' for deeper penetration was one of the few rules they needed to know. But we still need to 'know' our bullets. Many or most bullet failures still involve mistakes in selection or application IMO.

And two holes are nice but you best not count on them with even the monos:





(Though, to be fair, this one made three holes; two through the first animal, and on in the second - and it was only a 100 grain 7mm!)







...and speed; better have some if your bullet needs it.

There is still a standard against which others are measured, and it ain't a Johnny-come-lately!

Is that a TSX or a MatchKing??? lol, jk. That one was below the belt.

Jeffrey
I recently found a good article comparing some 22 centerfire bullets for deer.

It was on a UK shooting sports website and was entitled "22 Caliber Bullets for Deer Stalking". It used the bullet test tube and was a neat study. The sierra 65 GK faired quite well. I was interested because my newest fast twist 223 does not shoot my beloved 64 pp very well, but it does shoot the 65 GK very well (5 shots under 1 inch at 100 meters pretty consistently)

Thanks Colin! I have loved Sierras as long as I have been handloading. I am making it my business this fall to find a good cup and core deer bullet for my 223.

Man, what do we have now, three months to deer season? Can't wait...

I've killed a bunch deer over the years with the old stand-by Hornady 55gr SP out of a .22-250.

My godfather is the man who took me on my first deer hunt when I was 11. He always used a 22-250. He only took head and neck shots though. Not sure what bullet he shot.

Jeffery, old school would be the 64 gr. winchester powerpoint....I've heard that works good for deer if you are looking for a C&C bullet...I've also heard the 64 gr. federal fusion has been knocking the heck out of them....However, If I were to use a 22 bullet on deer it would probably be Ingwe's favorite (the 53 gr. tsx).....Where is that guy anyway? Usually he's driving that bandwagon......some guys jump on and some don't...

Pretty well sums up my reasoning. One for play, one for whatever Murphy throws at me.

I use only monolithics anymore. I have seen enough bizarre bullet behavior with cup and core bullets that I know almost anything is possible. I have seen near broadside hits turn inside the chest and exit out the front and the bottom. I have seen modern cup and core bullets (LeverEvolution factory) ammo hit ribs and deflect without entering the chest. I have seen that happen a lot more with older cup and core bullets. I have never seen anything other than perfect performance out of any monolithic but that's only getting on sixty deer now. The worst I have seen was a caliber size hole in and a caliber size hole out of the hide, but the internal damage was massive with an extraordinary amount of bone take out.

I shoot light for caliber bullets, and I push them moderately fast to very fast. I have killed and seen killed with my loads quite a few inside a hundred feet with impacts over 3000 FPS. I have only seen evidence of a single lost petal. The longest run after being ht with a monolithic that I know of out of the almost sixty deer now is about fifty yards, and maybe three of them made it that far. Not five, so the run rate Is under 10%, and in each case the deer died completely bled out with the heart and lungs destroyed. The majority of the deer dropped in their tracks so the average distance travelled after the shot s very very short.

The above does not include one deer shot in the knee with a Barnes 130. The hunter who did that did it at little more than 25 feet. I do not know how, I do not know why. I killed the deer the next morning and was thankful for that.

I would guess that out of all the cup and core bullet killed deer I have seen and examined, that maybe there were as many core-lokt killed deer as monolithic killed deer. The vast majority of them were killed with .308 diameter bullets. Probably about as many were killed with everything else as core-lokts.

I have recovered a lot of cup and core bullet pieces from complete disintegraton to core separations to a few relatively perfect mushrooms, but the perfect mushroooms recovered were defnitely in the small minority. My guess there is that the perfect mushrooms tended more to pass through.

I am with Steelie. If you have a Barnes and you push it fast that's about as good as we can hope for.

Steelhead that's pretty good! I believe you managed to squeeze in at least 3 logical fallacy's into one short reply, from the appeal to authority to an ad hominem response. So back to the question I posed If we take Kilkitrik's pictures on page 2 which he was so kind to post if a mono bullet fails to expand is it considered a failure? I would consider those to depict 2 perfect results and 3 results that were at least as much of a failure as the OP's cup and core. The interesting thing is if all 5 bullets were recovered from game I suspect all resulted in dead animals just as the OP's slug did.

Miles, I have only killed three deer with mono's, so I must admit to much less experience. All were from a 338 Fed. All were lung shots. Two were DRT, but the first ran quite a ways. Maybe 200 yards or so. The blood trail was nonexistent for the first 20 yards or so, and from there I was on my hands and knees most of the time.

Now that I think about it, I have never had a deer run further than the one I hit with that 185 TSX. Go figure.

That bullet is the 85 grain, 6mm XBT. It was fired with a gill-stretching load of H4350 in a 6mm at 400-ish yards. (It was farther than I thought and the neck shot became a butt-cheek shot on the going-away caribou.) I retrieved the bullet from the stomach. Slicing the femoral artery with the less than pencil-sized hole was the only good thing about that shot. 1/4" of error would have likely been hunched up critter, and who knows about recovery.

(The text you quoted relates to the previous bullet pictured BTW.)




If a bullet is designed to expand and it doesn't, I either consider it a bullet failure, a too small/too soft placement failure, or a too slow placement. I'm not crazy about hunting with bullet handicaps. Every bullet has its places. Some just seem to be suitable for more situations.

Sure it's a failure, I just ain't never experienced it nor have any of my friends nor their friends.

Seems the OP's slug was recovered from a [bleep] water jug, but what does that matter.

I'll go throw a few in a can of beans tomorrow if that will tickle you.


If there was something better than a Barnes I would use it. I used Nosler Partitions for 20 years and whilst good, they aren't the best.


Of course all that is my opinion, which should appear to be fairly obvious since I'm the one typing, but I thought I would make the statement since a water jug and critter are apparently the same for you.

Again, none of this stuff is rocket science but folks sure love to make things tougher than they need be.

A cow elk I shot this year at 330 yards with a .308" 180gr TTSX took a few minutes to croak, but you wouldn't have heard me bitching about it. The damn thing hit the snow behind her still sizzling, and the poor wapooti's entire vitals looked like tomato soup. Tucked it a little tighter behind the shoulder than I would've liked, as I like to break shoulders, but whatever... it worked.

The buck my dad shot with the same load however, hit the deck like somebody dropped a piano on it. Pops didn't even have time to recover from the recoil before it was down; he'd thought he missed!

Side note, has anybody noticed that TTSX don't make quite the 'THWACK' that other bullets do?

As far as I'm concerned, "Yes". That's why I used up my XLCs on paper and steel and couldn't bring myself to use TSX bullets on game. (I've got a bunch of them I'm using for target loads now, too.)


The tipped versions (TTSX and MRX) have been very good so far.

I think the monos have really improved things in 2 areas:

1. They've made light caliber rifles that shoot little pills at Mach 2 much more reliable killers.

2. They offer excellent penetration which is a must on large, dangerous game.

Monos aren't the only bullets that do this, but they're an excellent choice for both applications.

When you look at rifles in .25 cal and above that are primarily used on deer sized game, the choices are many.

I primarily use 7MM and .25 caliber rifles. I only shoot deer & hogs, but I favor high shoulder shots. Neither animal is considered extremely tough, but if you like breaking bone and having exit holes, you could do worse than using a premium bullet like the TSX, Partition or Accubond.

Don't have much personal experience with the TSX, mainly use Partitions and AB's, but I would certainly choose them over any standard cup/core bullet for the shooting I do.

I gripe about the price of them, but it seems silly when you consider it's going to be about 70 whole dollars to get 100 of the things, and you'll only use hopefully a few per hunt. The more I think about it, I'd be silly to not walk around with the 375 H&H stoked with 235 TSX this season...

I'd probanly use lead cast pills if I hunted deer/elk/black bear with a .375 ...

Huh?

I think you missed it...

Majorly. Care to explain?

375 Win?

70 whole dollars will fill my truck for a week, or buy me 300 cup and cores. I like to shoot.

Sure, but when it gets to the nitty gritty, it ain't much money. I promise I shoot just as often as you. Currently, there isn't a monometal on my shelf, but come season time there sure will be.

I guess it all depends what you are trying to put holes in. I haven't shot at anything all that tough yet.

Big antlery stuff and big toothy stuff! Ok, maybe not THAT big, but a good bullet still feels good to have around

Gimme the bullet with the most ass in the caliber I am shooting and I will call it a day, or something along those lines. I just have to come to terms with the fact that I am a cheapskate with a hard-on for Sierras and the like. After all, the Barnes bullets, as good as they are, were designed to adhere to regulations set forth in Commiefornia, right? Maybe not, but if so, more reason for me to indirectly give some endangered condors a good dose of lead poisoning.

I'm totally with you, cheapskate here when it comes to bullets for shooting. But, I will suck it up and buy some premiums for killin', whether they be TSX, TTSX, or Noz Partishes. They just kill super well, IME.

Not much of an issue to buy a box or two of 'premiums' and then have your play bullet. I don't spend all afternoon throwing Barnes at distant rocks.

At least the kid gets it, don't Jeffery ever will.

We've all seen pictures of TSX bullets that didn't expand. Anyone have a photo of a TTSX or MRX that didn't expand?

We�ve all seen reports of C&C bullets that splashed and failed to penetrate more than a couple inches. Anyone know of a TTSX/MRX/GMX/North Fork/A-Frame/Partition/similar that failed in a similar way?

No, but I do have a pic or two of Partitions and TTSX from dead animals...

I'm still a bonded / partition cup and core guy. While you've never seen a TSX separate there are plenty of cases where they haven't expanded. A premium hunting bullet stays together out of a high velocity magnum at 15 feet and still penetrates, while retaining the reliability of always expanding at long range (600 yards). I think the TSX, and TTSX are getting there, but I'm not convinced they are all the way there yet.

TSX definitely not, TTSX and MRX have been perfect for us.

Why bother working up a new load for a mono bullet when the ones I use now work just fine?

I've recently come to the conclusion that the bullet performance debate has a lot more to do with style of hunting.... than it does bullets.

I thought about all the stuff I've seen get shot with C&C bullets..... vs. Monometals..... and I think the main reason my mileage with C&Cs has been much better than most, has been pure shot selection. I have never personally shot a big game animal that was running, or even on the trot. I've always waited for the right shot through shoulder or ribs.... ballistic tips have always served me well in this type of hunting. Some guys want to run bullets into ball joints (sometimes on the wrong end.....) and have an exit, or shoot through stuff on the move at any angle/range.... those guys better pick a solid pill.

This is why I hate the "when things go wrong argument"..... should I b1tch about getting killed in a 125mph wreck..... because the car's airbags and crumple zones didn't save me? Same with bullets, put them in bad situations, expect bad outcomes....

If you took a closer look at shot selection.... you'd need to spend far less time looking at bullets.....

No reason to if you're happy with the way your current loads work.

I'm glad they do, but you start a thread all tickled like a boy who finds his pecker for the first time.

I don't give a [bleep] what others use, but you are far too provincial to be making blanket statements, that's for damn sure.

Another tool heard from. [bleep] goes wrong in a hurry if you hunt long enough.

And a "mono bullet" prevents that ? Oh brother...

The only times I've seen schit go wrong.... were times when I'd not have pulled the trigger..... or when I made a poor decision myself, no bullet makes up for loose screws in the nut behind the trigger.

Besides.... you missed the point.... point was, if you want a bullet thats good for when schit goes wrong.... you needn't look far. I want a bullet that works great when I apply it properly.... I needn't look far either. Let your choice in "bullet performance" be dictated by the style of hunting/shooting you do.

I started this thread to show the how little a difference there can be between a bullet that retains it's core and one that does not. This is because I think a lot of folks would consider a bullet losing it's core/jacket a failure, while one that maintains it's construction not. Nothing against the mono bullets, I just think that some people seemed to have forgotten how many cup/core bullets have done just fine for a long time.

This ....I would argue a bit about the time line,since we had the Partition, Bitterroot,TBBC,and Aframe 25-30+ years ago,all predating the X and other monos.These bullets were "game changers"...in general, I could not agree more with this excellent post...and it applies in other calibers as well.From the African section.


#6619948 - 06/23/12 03:41 PM Re: bullet weight for 30 cal ? [Re: southwind]
MileHighShooter
Member

Registered: 06/16/12
Posts: 59 Simple really.

If you stopped reading reloading manuals around 1972, and ignore the advances in bullet technology in the last 10 years OR...if you are just a cheap SOB and only want to use bulk C&C bullets, then yes, shoot the 180's and don't look back.

However, if you HAVE kept up on bullet technology, you understand that everything you ever knew about bullets is now thrown out the window and irrelevant. Hard for a lot of people to grasp, because humans as a species fear change in any tiny way, especially hunters/gun nuts for some reason.

Modern, what I consider "super premium" bullets, are NOTHING like the bullets of old. Using the heaviest available bullets in a caliber to insure deep penetration was a problem with crappy soft bullets from over 100 years ago. Period. End of discussion. Its like comparing a modern direct injection multi-stage cam lift engine vs the Model T's engine. They don't compare except the fact that they are in fact inside a car, and make it go vroom.

With these new super premiums, penetration is damn near guaranteed to exceed anything else, pending the animal doesn't have a 6" steel plate around its heart. Sure the old bullets killed just fine, still do. BUT, humans while fearing change, also crave advancement (we are a funny lot). Metals are better, machining and tools are better, powders are better, primers are more consistent, bullets naturally are in the same line. You simply do NOT NEED anything over the "medium" end of bullet weights in any given caliber for todays modern bullets. This has been proven through hundreds of posts on various forums, articles, testing, and lab work from bullet makers.

Want to use cup and core soft points on an elk in 30-06? Sure, use 180's, heck 200's are better. Using a multi-part bullets such as the Partition or A-Frame? 180's is cheap insurance but you're probably fine going lighter and 165's will do the job just fine, this goes for bonded core bullets too.

Now, if you are using monometal or non-conventional style bullets? 165's and under, and you'll have NO issue, damn near from any angle. I wish someone would do some penetration tests here so we could see, but I know over on AR guys have used the 130gr TTSX in 308 mags to kill elk just FINE. Most guys would scoff and say a 130gr will bounce off even the tinniest of elk!!! How dare you insult the game by using such a small bullet?! But they forget, Barnes bullets will almost always give full penetration, regardless of MANY factors.

They shoot flatter, meaning less hold over or trying to do math instead of concentrating on the target. They recoil less, which means you can shoot larger cartridges comfortably, or just practice a whole lot more. Might get rid of that flinch too....no one will admit it, but I bet there are more then a few people reading this now that developed some bad habits by sticking to old lore with shooting. Most won't also admit the 30-06 with 180's is just too much for them. But, I know they exist, I see them at the range, flinching at a shot with 8-9lbs 06. If they were shooting 150's I bet they'd do better. I know the 130's in my 300wby are cream puffs on the receiving end of the recoil.



SAYING ALL THAT....if a 165gr partition makes it through eland, then there is absolutely NO reason to "need" anything more. African game are not bullet proof, I think that perception became of physiological differences then what US hunters are used to. Whitetail hunters are used to the high shoulder shot...well, don't always work with every animal lol