As some of you may know,I'm saving to buy my 8 year old daughter her first deer rifle.She is only 65 lbs and 4'5" tall.

I have decided on a Montana 223 for the recoil and light weight.The recent thread on muzzle breaks has me wondering if she could start with a larger caliber with break and have recoil very close to 223 levels.

Even 243 with 100 grn loads is too much recoil for her from a 7.5 lb rifle.I would like to be around 6 lbs with a scoped rifle so recoil is a major factor for a few years untill she grows some.

If we could shoot a 6 lb 243 or 7-08 with 223 level recoil and later remove a break,it might be worth the noise.We will be shooting from a shooting house and wearing hearing protection anyway.

This is from the KDF web-sight


Caliber Felt-Recoil After Installation
.460 Wby. Mag. .375 H & H
.458 Win. Mag. .338 Win. Mag.
.411 KDF Mag. 7mm Rem. Mag.
.378 Wby. Mag. .30-06
.375 H & H .30-06
.340 Wby. Mag. .270 Win.
.338 Win. Mag. .270 Win.
.308 Norma Mag. .243 Win.
.300 H & H .243 Win.
.300 Wby. Mag. .243 Win.
.300 Win. Mag. .243 Win.
.30-06 Spgfld. .243 Win.
7mm Rem. Mag. .243 Win.
.270 Wby. Mag. .243 Win.
.270 Win. .22-250
.25-06 .223 Rem

Go with the 223. She will hate the muzzle brake; the added noise and muzzle blast far outweigh the recoil reduction.

I think KDF is being a little ambitious with that table.

I'd instead look at a Tikka T3 Lite in 22-250

30%-40% reduction is what most say. Seems like a lot.

The brake is a definite blast, but I could never endorse a .223 for a hunting caliber for big game when starting out. It takes a real hunter/marksman to kill game with a small caliber as a .223.

Think you maybe right...

I agree with Txpitdog, my 300 WBY has a Weatherby Accubrake on it (advertizes about 50% recoil reduction) and it reduces recoil a lot but not down to a 243!

Weatherby info is that the 378 Wby is reduced to 375 H&H, and some folks have said that it takes it down to 300 Wby levels. Basically from 77lbs down to 35-40lbs. A 30-06 is 20,so KDF is smoking something.

Why I didn't think of this earlier, I don't know, but if your shot ranges allow, a Marlin 1894 44mag or 357mag would be a great choice. Lower recoil, fairly and compact, and will smack the hell out of a deer. I would be more comfortable with a 357 rifle and 158gr JSP's than a 223.

I have fired exactly one rifle with a brake, a 7mm RM, and the recoil reduction was quite noticeable. So was the muzzle blast.

That'd be the way I'd roll as well.

Dober

If you're set on a Montana you can disregard this but I'd consider the REM 7 youth in 223 or you can just get a reg one and find a wood stock to cut down or a youth one. It also would be a forever rifle and the youth stock would be easy to come by unlike the Montana. I've killed countless deer with my old REM 7 in 223 with the 18.5" bbl. The 243 with some reduced loads could possibly work too.

Guys, I've put threads up about different choices before.I have considered the new Ruger 77/357 at 5.5 lbs and I would consider the Rem youth except light weight is as important as low recoil.

One good thing about the Montana is that I can get correct LOP just by grinding away nearly all the recoil pad.Then I can just replace it when she grows a bit.That makes the expensive stock not such an obsticle.

I just wanted to get input about breaks as I have never used or been around any.I have confidence in the 223 for the ranges we will be shooting with good bullet choice but I was thinking why not go a bit larger if we can get around recoil.

I would like to go 7mm-08 if a break can get us low enough on recoil.That way she will have a lifetime rifle that we can use on nearly any game.We can always remove the break in a few years when she grows.Keep in mind that what I want is a scoped rifle around 6 lbs with close to 223 level recoil.

My experience with muzzle breaks is the noise and percussion is as big of an annoyance as the recoil (or more).

Even with double ear protection, the muzzle break is more apt to induce flinching because of the increased shock wave that hits the face and head.

I would look at Marlin m-1894s in any pistol cartridge before I would consider using a muzzle break on anything.

Why not get the 7mm-08, and use a reduced load for now?

All of my rifles have brakes on them.I have arthritis in both shoulders and doctor said I should have surgery on both and I said as long as I can handle it I don't want surgery.
Karl at kampfeldcustom.com has made and installed most of mine.His has the holes drilled at a 11 or 17degree foward angle on them so the blast goes away from the shooter and is dispersed rapidly.I've shot all kinds of animals and when I shoot 1 most of the time the others just look up and go back to their business because they couldn't tell which direction the shot came from.
I would say recoil is reduced by at least 45-50 percent due to the forward drilled holes the rifle is pushed and the slight pull forward reduces felt recoil.You can always put a mercury reducer in the butt of the stock also,they come in various weights to help reduce recoil.

I can almost PROMISE YOU HIS CAN MAKE A 7-08 KICK LIKE A 22-250.I always wear ear protection anyway.I use the same as the SWAT teams use made by PELTOR.You can talk to each other and hear fine once the noise level is beyond a certain decibal they shut off and you don't hear the blast.I can listen to deer eat corn underneath the feeder.

Clark, trust me on this one. If you can swing it and want to brake the rifle get yourself a screw on Mag/Na/Port. The noise guys talk is from a bad brake. The way it's ported is what it's all about. The MNP brake is top shelf the shooter never feels the noise trust me. and. is you can take it off when huntin and trust me again she'll never feel recoil when shootin her deer, but she will have learned to shoot while the gun was brake'ed and have shot good. A limbsaver recoil pad is a good thing too. Nice pad again trust me. I shoot a .300RUM Mag/Na/Ported and a R-3 Rem. pad that shoots like an .06 on the bench. Huntin I leave the brake home.....later

I keep saying the same thing about the Vais brake, but nobody believes it. I heard no difference in noise.

Thanks guys,looks like I do need to look into a break as a possibility.

Around 30% recoil reduction seems to be what I read most, for me I'd not consider one as the rifles I've been around that were equiped with a muzzel break were head splittingly loud...........Hb

I shoot 223 (5.56) every single day with and without breaks. I have used just about every brand made and those who say any break is quite is on crack. I have them on about half of my rifles, but teaching a lot of new shooters IME the noise/concussion causes more flinching then recoil. Just from a function of how they work they will increase blast, concussion, noise, and flash.


Seriously you are over thinking this, especially the .357/.223 part. Just get a good 223, use good bullets and she will slaughter deer.

I never said they're quiet. I said I couldn't hear a difference with and without when wearing ear protection. Neither did anybody else who shot my gun.

You can say you tried a Vais, and i'll believe you when you show the gun.

Oooh. I'm being called out. Cool.




300 Tomahawk. 34in Krieger barrel with a Vias muzzle break.

+3. Get her started with the mild .223. When she gets older and bigger, you can move her up to, say, a .260 or 7mm-08. And you'll still have the .223 Montana, a great little walk-about rifle. Forget the brake and use the money you've saved to put toward a nice binocular for her.

As noted previously. I would buy something with more thump like a 260 or 7-08 and use Remington "Managed Recoil" loads or equivelent handload until she is all growd up. In fact, I did just that when my boy's were very young with a 250 AI.

Ok, I believe you, but i'm still confused that you think the Vais is loud? I had about 10 guys shoot my gun, and not one of them complained about noise. My gunsmith has installed about 50 of them with no complaints about noise.

Oh well. I can only talk about my own experience.

Another recommendation for the Vais muzzle brake. I put a Vais muzzle brake and a limbsaver recoil pad on my .325 and it reduced the recoil to .243 levels. I honestly think my 5 year old could shoot it.

As far as noise goes, I didn't notice any increase in noise and in fact I personally think it's quieter with the Vais on there.

There you go! I was hoping someone would come along that agreed with me. The Vais is the only brake to use.

I recently burned up a bunch of powder in a Mk V 340 Wea. I put over a hundred rounds through the original barrel with the factory Wea brake with 200 and 215 gr bullets handloaded to maximum velocities.

This was about six months after rotator cuff surgery to repair a fully separated tendon in my right shoulder.

I found the 340 very tolerable, about on a par with a seven pound 30-06 pushing 165's to 2900 fps.

We then had Pac-Nor replace the barrel on the MK V and install one of their brakes. I think the Pac-Nor brake was even more effective than the Wea brake.

The comparison to a 270 is, I think, valid.

Noise???????????

The 340 with the brake did not seem any louder than any of my unbraked rifles. But I never fired it without GOOD muffs or plugs.

Call me old fashioned but why in heck is it so important for an 8 year old to kill something if they can't handle an adequate caliber?

No problem with the idea of getting them started shooting at a young age under full supervision. At one time it was not unheard of for the youngsters to go along with their fathers as a companion for a year or two. They could experience the hunt and learn the rules of gun handling from instruction and observation.

Personally I doubt this girl is ready to hunt.

Jim

Jim
I appreciate the concern but I feel she can hunt under the conditions she will be in.She has hunted with me for two years under my close supervision.The first year was just carrying a BB gun to help her learn safety.The second year she got to shoot a few squirells with a 22 I carried and handed to her at the right moment.

The conditions will likely be a lot different here in Bama than in Ontario.I won't be pushing her out the door to trudge through waist deep snow with dad's 30-06.It will be several years before I allow her to hunt even as far as shouting distance from dad.We will be shooting over a green field from a shooting house with dad sitting right becide her.Shots will be around 50 yards and likely on a doe around 60-80 lbs.The 223,357 or nearly any centerfire will be quite adequate.That's why any centerfire is legal here.

My concern is not if she is strong or old enough but to get something that will fit her well and allow me to cultivate her already present desire to hunt with dad.There are very few extremly light,low recoiling deer rifles.I just wanted to explore the idea of a muzzle break that might open up a few more possibilities.

The weight isn't too much a concern from the shooting house but I wanted to let her start learning how to shoot from different positions as well.

The Vias is certainly not as obnoxious as most breaks, especially to the shooter, however directly to the side and for sure inside of a shooting house they are still louder then an unbreaked gun.

I agree to that, but for hunting it's still an advantage for those looking for less recoil with no noticeable louder noise. I never shoot even hunting without some kind of ear protection.

I hurt my hearing trap shooting when I was young and stupid. So, it's really sensitive now.