OK guys, if you were gonna build or buy a short action rifle (Not WSM) to primarily hunt Mule Deer/White Tail deer with shots topping out at 400 yards, what caliber would you choose and why???
I've run the WSM course and just don't feel I need the added recoil. I'm thinking an accurate, relatively light, short action rifle is the optimal package. Given these parameters, what caliber would you choose??

.308 Winchester running 165's

.308's are usually goofy accurate. I really like 165's or 150's but you can run 130's up to the 208's and break shoulders on any deer or elk if needed. Recoil won't send you to the physical therapist. Ammo is found anywhere. Brass is easy to come by. They feed like a fat boy at a buffet.

Whats not to love

This whole rig came from the "Campfire" classifieds except the bare action and recoil lug

6.5-284, 284, 7mm-08, 260 and 308 would be my choices in about that order.

x2 on the 308 because it just works!

hey gunnut that is a sweet package. Whose barrel and what contour is that?

I have no mule deer experience but wt.

I would choose 284Win and not to be smart but I feel the reasons are obvious.

The 6.5-284 is purely a wildcat and case working is involved. The 284 is simple and effective. IMO.

7

Redneck (Lee) put that one together. Its a 21" Pac-Nor thats Remington taper to .670 at the business end.

Actually lapua makes 6.5-284 brass that is so good people have been necking it up to use in their 284

well done

Thanks! Its one of my favorites

gunnut308 nailed it - .308 Win, 165 grain - boattails for the long shots if your rifle likes them.

I moved up to 165 gr after having some 150 gr fail to exit on large whitetails - the 165s go right on through: two holes = better blood trail.

I'm using a Kimber 84M Montana, .308, Leupold 2x7, Kimber bases - very light, accurate, versatile - but have been hunting in Adirondacks so no 400 yd shots! you might want something with a little heavier barrel if you want to go out that far.

Without question .308 Win and it's not even close..........Hb

260 due to its great ballistic coefficient

I'd go 7mm-08..

Not a thing mo need be said...

Dober

.243, .25-06, or .260

Then again, I only have experience with our puny AB deer...

Guppy venado...

Dober

Me too, then 260, then 308.....but I really like them all and there isn't a ton of difference with comparable bullets at these ranges.

My thoughts to a T.

Not like you Dober....You know you wanted to say 150 hornady interlock and go fill some arks....

Okay - I don't feel there is any ? about lapua quality.

If brass cost is acceptable, the 6.5-284 would be a GREAT round.

*** IMO the 308 W is limited in powder capacity for the bullet dia. There is less velocity (speed).

I"m getting less fussy about bullets but still like to fill Arks...

Dober

LOL, that's the kind of thinking reading too much Guns And Ammo on the toilet leads to...

Pretty sure this guy stepped in front of a Hornady Interlock 150

He lost...

Guess he didn't read the memo about limited case cap for the round...grin

Dober

Ha!...Yep...."Terminal Speed Limit" has credits for many kills

Terminal speed limit, I like that

Dober

Hey Brad - It's been so long since I even held a G & A I can't remember.

I've had 308 and had/have an Oehler 33.

Can anyone deny the 284 W capacity is greater than a 308 W?

Seat a 7mm - 140 OR 150 and compare PLUS the SD & BC are better.

YMMV

Jerry

Yup that be the ticket:)

260 Rem, 7mm-08, 308 Win, all will do what you want and more if you ever decide to stretch them out.

265 fps and a 125gr Muzzy is where he found his "Terminal Speed Limit"

Broken horned baby 4x4, but I'll never forget the hunt...

Yup, my mileage varies because I've actually killed coyotes, antelope, mule deer, and elk out to just over 400 yards with the 308.

? At 400 yds ?

Still better than any elk I've killed with ANYTHING.

I didn't say the 308 could not do it.

I just like the 284W and 7mm bullets better.

I would think that you have to seat those bullets pretty deep for a short action 25-06. I think an accurate Model 7 in 260 or 7mm-08 would be a fine choice for the OP.

He was a very looooong 22 yards, but he came from about 400 looking for the lonely horny cow mewing in the bushes. Then he got a free ride from Montrose, CO to my freezer.

It's called a .25-06-08

I missed the SA stipulation, but a 7-08 would be a fine substitute.

Is the 284 a short action or just a shorter cartridge in a "long action"??? Sounds intresting.

Buy: 7-08, due to lousy selection of .260 factory rifles.

Build: 6.5x47 Lapua

I have a .250 Savage in the works. Can't wait to see what I can do with some 80-100 grain bullets at 2800-3100 fps. I don't imagine they will have a problem handling deer at 400 yards.

Now u're talkin! You left "Boring" way out in left field!



Going 3000fps for a mere 97 years!! (3.058992e+9)

.

400 yards is not that far-- it's before the squirrels start to messin' with your bullet-- and light barrels do just fine out to well beyond that. Put it this way- I have a 10" 400-yd plate that's just there for checking groups etc. No real challenge to hit it.

I'd go 7-08 first choice and .308 second choice. I'd be real happy with either. Right now I'm finishing up with, I hope, a very light 7-08 mountain rifle to take mulie hunting, along with my 7 WSM.

There's something about .308 that's never lit my candle. It's just too damn... practical.

Just dumped both of my .308 Win rifles. There wasn�t anything they could do that my .30-06�s couldn�t do just as well or better. Good cartridge, yes. Practical, yes. Right for me, no.

The fact that it's a wannabe 30-06 kinda puts the stank on it for me, too.

7-08 has no such stank. It is what it is.

I just purchased a 6.5x47L. I was going to have one built, but found a second hand one very very close to the same specs. Haven't shot the rifle yet, nor taken game with it, but I'm pretty sweet on the concept, and expect to embrace it wholeheartedly.

I expect it to recoil lightly (even in comparison to a .308), have reasonable ballistics, have plenty of space to reach and chase lands in a standard 700 SA mag (even with VLD's), and be a "boy" chambering, to paraphase dogzapper.

Sticking with chambering's I have some experience with, the 7/08AI has left me quite pleased. I primarily shoot the 162 Amax in it, but plan to bullet up for elk in the future.

The 7/08 is a wannabe' 280...

But see, it isn't! .280 isn't anything of note. 30-06 on the other hand is "the" American cartridge.

I mean from day one, the .308 was "almost" a 30-06. That's like being almost John Wayne or something. It's weak.

The .280 is probably the coolest cart of all time sir. Clean it up.

That would be the 300 H&H .... and it big brother 300 WBY

I don't think finishing second to the Duke as being weak ....

The 308 would be suitable. I also like the 260 and 7-08. But for only 400...a 243 would be enough.

That said, I like the 7-08 best.

What makes a certain cartridge best??? Best at what? ... Never understood the question. ... I never made stuff ded with a 260 or 308 ... BUT, I'm sure out to 400 yards either would be quite dandy .... I chose the 7/08 ... but I don't think its best ... a 260 in your hands may be mo better or a 308 in someone else's hand may put us both to shame ...

Since none of the cartridges I'd choose will fit in a short action, I'd go with the .308 because it's accurate and it's cheaper to shoot.

308

At 400 yards? Really? Pray, do tell why the 7mm is better out to 400 yards?

Thought the guy said SHORT action

He did... I'm fairly certain the 308 Win, 7mm-08 Rem and 284 Win are short action cartridges.

I'm a simpleton and am trying to get to the bottom of how a SA 7mm is superior to 400 yards...

While I certainly agree about the H&H, a short action cartridge it ain't.

.284 Win. Huge selection of 7mm boolits & just a bit more snort than the .308 based cartridges. Although the .308, 7-08, 6.5-284, .260, 25-284 are fine choices as well.

Factory rifle would be .308 due to a wider selection of off the shelf choices. Also, if a sub 6lb rig is wanted & moderate recoil is fairly high on the list of criteria, any of the milder recoiling .308 based rounds would surely do the job with ark filling aplomb. (Just really wanted to use those words together.)

I like the sound of that too

.243, .260, 7-08 are all fantastic.....donors for another .308 build


.338 Federal would be another I'd like to spend some time with.


Read more: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_338_101207/#ixzz23i3TsC6S

You'd do better to change the title to the worst S/A caliber to narrow it down.....

308/165s or 257/85-100-110

My 257 is LA but can be had in SA.

The 308 was designed to take advantage of smokeless powder advances since the 30-06 was designed and with a heavier/stronger rim and web so that it would fail less often when used in machine guns. I doubt that the guys who designed the 308, 7.62x51, cared in the least about how people might perceive their case design.

Jeff

.270 x .308AI...just cuz a .270 needed to show up somewhere in this discussion...

I had a friend start a build on one of these just as the 7-08 was getting its initial run in the press. As soon as he started looking at what it could do he dropped the .270 project and bought the 7-08.

That would be my choice.

Since you're criteria doesn't preclude using a SAUM, I'd opt for the 7mm SAUM in a factory cartridge or, maybe, a 25 SAUM in a wildcat.

Jeff

Reality is everyone has a favorite, but they all will get you to 400 yds easily and without even worrying about B.C.

It's really just about your rifle + your ability to get it done to 400 yards which really ain't that far away.

I'm currently running a .308 in a stainless MK V carbine and 7/08 in a Montana.

I shot a deer at 400 yds dead once, went about 25 yds after a 105 amax went thru both lungs, from a 6BR at 2850 mv.

Put good bullet thru vitals, and most any bullet 24-30 cal if designed for hunting will do the job.

The 308 is not my fav, but I know it's a solid choice.

Proven to 1,000 yds, a deer at 400 is a chip shot for a guy who knows his rifle.

I like the 130 TTSX in the 308 to that distance, less recoil and flat (within 1-2" drop at 400 yds vs. a 260/130AB load, when zero at 200).

That said, I personally like my 260s using 130AB, but it's subjective.

The cartridge choice is really the easy part here, anything based on the .308 parent case, if building from scratch then include the 284 win case and a host of wildcats. Part of the decision comes down to wether you handload or use factory ammo and really the rifle itself that you choose and what it is chambered in. Personally mine is a 20" Weatherby carbine that goes about 6lb 10 oz scoped and ready to go in 7mm-08

How so? It's a wannabe 280 Rem, but I like it and the 308 just fine.

I'd say 260 Rem because of light recoil, high bc and sectional density for the bullets, which to me, sounds about perfect for a lightweight, short action rifle. Scandinavians kill moose and bear with the 6.5X55 Swede, which is pretty much the same damn thing, different package, so it should kill mulies just fine, I know it kills whitetail, just used it last year. Or if you want real easy, buy a rifle chambered in 243 Winchester, my dad has used the same old battered 1973 Rem 700 BDL, 95gr Ballistic Tips, and IMR 4350 every year to kill large whitetail and mulies for the last 38yrs with great success. If you're gonna build one, I'd also recommend 6.5-284 or .284 Winchester. Then you'd have 6.5-06 or 280 power in a short action rifle, just make sure to install a 3" mag box.

Sorry to be so long getting back....been tied up.

It is my personal preference and here is why.

1. The 284 has larger powder capacity than 308.

2. The 284 bullets are sleeker, more aerodynamic, higher bc s.

3. The 284 bullets have higher sd, except for heavy 30 cals.

4. The 284W (280R, 270W) has higher velocities.

5. IF a SA hadn't been stipulated, I'd choose 280 or 270.


For comparison: some people EVEN like Dodge.

The OP, ratherbhuntin, said if you were going to build or buy;
IF building, production rifles aren't specified.

I don't know if anyone is chambering 284W in production rifles but as a handloader OR building a custom, it's irrelevant.

I LIKE higher velocity, flatter trajectory, harder hitting.


It's my personal choice.

It's the 400-yd part that's gonna getcha here.

To me, the best 6.5 choice in a short action.

My 6.5-284 is on a std. pre-64 and works great. The extra length lets me load 140's as long as I want to. I don't have a .284, but would think the same situation would occur if one wanted to load heavier bullets, longer than factory COAL.

IMHO,

DA

That would be a .25 Souper I think, bet that would be a fun one to play with.

With the new progressive powders, like RL-17, the Souper would be a fun project. I'm thinking it could be a real screamer with the right loads.

To answer the OP, the .308 is a super fine round. The 7-08 has a wide following. The .260 has a lot of potential. It would be hard to go wrong with any of the above in a short action. Just depends on what "turns yo crank"...

DF

.260, 6.5CM, 7mm-08, .308 - take your pick. If being able to buy factory ammo is a concern, the .308 by a mile. If not, any of the other three would make you smile. If you are going to run a 2.8" box, the CM is a little more forgiving. I run a 3" Wyatt box, and have my .260 throated accordingly. This also works well. I personally use and like the .260 for performance/recoil ratio.


John

The funny thing is that this answer by George is the only one who answers the caliber question with a caliber. Everything else mentioned here are cartridges...grin...

Debating pretty much any cartridge on the '06 or .308 case at 400 yards is not really worth the effort. Four hundred yards is just getting going.

For me personally, I'd run a .260 (120's or 130's) or a 7mm-08(140's).

That's easy ... .223AI .....

Just in case this thread wasn't interesting enough ....

Almost as short as the aforementioned .280Rem

After you said that, you went ahead and answered the question with a cartridge.

Yup -

I had to fit in since that's what he meant to ask...grin...

IIRC, I used 3,000 mv w/.350 BC

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=57&BulletWeight=130&LoadID=8338

I know, just had to get my dig in on you.

If we gotta go there, how about a .22-204. No fire forming and you can use a full length .223 mag (700 or 7 Rem) with the block knocked out and a modified .308 follower, narrowed with a file to fit the .223 box mag.

With a 7.5 or 8 twist, you can run 75 gr. bullets at 3,000 fps.

Not my choice for the OP's original question, but pretty cool set up. Probably won't phase the .223AI advocates...

DF

Since I regularly shoot pdogs at 400+ yards with the 25 WSSM, I'd probably shoot either of my regular "go to" deer rifles in 25 WSSM, both Winchester/USRA 70s bedded in McM Compacts and either 100 grain Partitions or 110 grain ABs.

If I didn't have to carry it too far and I knew that the ranges would be long, I'd consider the Savage 11 in 260 with the 26" stainless Shilen barrel and McM Savage Hunter stock with either the 129 grain Hornady or the 130 grain AB.

Although I shoot a few 284s and 284 bases wildcats, I think that the 55mm case allows for less COAL latitude than the 51mm case in a short action, so I'd probably go with the shorter case, accept a little less speed, and remember to bring my laser range finder.

Jeff

In a factory cartridge, I would go with a .270 WSM and whatever 120-140 grain bullet grouped well in my rifle. In a wildcat, maybe a .25-284 and 100 TTSXs or 110 ABs...just to be different.

7-08 WITH A 139 GR SST ON H414. EVERY WHITETAIL I HAVE SHOT HAVE EITHER BEEN DRT OR HAD A BLOOD TRAIL A BLIND GUY COULD FOLLOW. HAVENT KILLED DEER AT 400 YET BUT 300 IS NO PROBLEM AND WITH THE HIGH BC FROM THE 7MM 4OO SHOULD BE A CAKE WALK.

YES.

6.5mm (.260Rem).

If I can't have my 270 Win, I'd have to go with .308. I know some won't agree with my bullet choice, but deer really hate the 155 grn A-Max. Especially at greater distances I think you'd find the A-Max expansion to be more controlled.

When I went through this same dilemna years ago when trying to decide what to build, I settled on the 7mm-08, and have never regretted it.

It has worked fine on both whitetail and mule deer, though well inside 400 yards (I've never shot at a big game animal that far away; however, I have no doubts that both me and the cartridge/rifle are up to it if it should ever happen).

You mentioned recoil. While the 308 is hardly a beast, there is a noticeable difference (to me anyway) between the 7mm-08 and the 308. Not a lot, but it's there.

Bullet selection runs the gamut in the 7mm family, so you are going to find a bullet that suits all of your needs, and, shoots well from your rifle.

I wouldn't hesitate to use the 308, the 338 Federal, or the 260 Rem with appropriate bullets, but like I said, when it came time to build my "go-to" deer hunting rifle, I happily settled on the 7mm-08.

.284

For just deer? I'd find a decent 308 or 7mm-08, make friends with it, and kill deer. No need to even use really fancy bullets or anything. NBTs have done me well on deer. I use 150gr bullets in the 308 and have used 140gr in 7mm-08.

Hey Dan you feeling better?

Sometimes normal is a little too boring isn't it? I know a lot of people get wrapped up around BC, SD, and bullet selection, but IMHO is who cares. The little quarter bore will work just as well as any other cartridge being discussed even with the sub standard bullet selection it has.

The two that jump out at me these days are the 7/08 and 6.5 Creedmoor.

If I were in love with short actions(I'm not),I'd grab a Kimber Montana and send it out for a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel,and dupe the contour. This may be delusion but I've done crazier things.

I killed a bunch of my 20-odd deer with a 7-08. It is one heck of a deer cartridge.

HowEVER....... take out the 400-yd requirement that the OP spec'd and I'd say .358....... but I'm a little nutty that way.

Bunch of them fill the bill from the 243 on the small end to the 308 on the larger end and several good ones in between such as the 7-08, 260 rem etc. Take your pick all can take a deer at 400 yds if the shooter does his part.

308
708
260(or any of the others 6.5 creed,6.5x47,etc)
250AI
243

If you handload take your pick. If not I'd go 308. I didn't list "why" to the different cartridges because every single one of them will work great. I'd hate to be a deer at 400 yards if you shoot from time to time. I'd feel comfy with my 22-250AI

The 6mm's appeal to me.

I'd prolly go 243AI.

I would caremore aout the package than the chamber however. All mentioned would be okie dokie with me.

Havent read all the posts, but a Kimber Montana in 7mm-08 firing a 140 gr Accubond would get it done with ease.

Gunner

This exercise proves one thing:

They all work Proven. Lon ago, I always advocated for deer using a 25-28 bore pushing 2700 w/a bullet 120gr or up.

NOW, I inc. the 24 bore as bullets are better than ever i.e. 95BT and Barnes (many others I know and used succesfully). The 25s work great w/100-110s also.

Kaleb, agree, I could use a 22/250AI or even 22BR w/fast twist, a 75 Amax and other's will smoke deer. FLY flat, deny wind.

Jeff, notice you use the 25 WSSM alot, wonder if there was a 6.5 WSSM option...just curious

Being a 6.5 nut a 260/130AB is my go to, but a 6.5BR, even 6BR would do my fine as I learned long ago, it's not horsepower, but shot placement w/good bullets.

Light recoil never hurts, which is prob why I have not felt the need to go 308, but as a handloader I have more options, and I like experimenting for my own desire to learn.

For me, I can and have been lethal w/a variety of combos, though not used 22s or smaller on deer...yet.

Lighter recoiling rounds just allow me to thread my shot thru vitals w/more confidence and ease, and no doubt, when you know you don't shoot a cannon, you focus more on placing your shot, or I do, and you also have less ruined meat. Things to consider.

That puts more focus for me on 6mm and 6.5s, owned a 25-06, but louder than I like, would love to own a 250/ai someday.

My next big venture will be playing w/22 fast twists, lighter recoil yet....always learning.

Sort of. I'm not feverish anymore but I have to keep my leg in a sling to keep the fluid from building up. I just got switched to stronger meds because the ones they had me on weren't killing the infection fast enough.

I think that because of COAL limits imposed by the Winchester/USRA 70 WSSM's magazine length, the .257" bore might be the "sweet-spot" for this case and magazine length combination. The 6.5 WSSM might work well with lighter/shorter bullets, but you'd soon run into COAL issues, assuming that you'd actually want to be able to have cartridges feed smoothly from the magazine. Since I already have 256 Newtons, 260s, 6.5-284s, and 6.5x55s, I think that I have the medium capacity .264" bore cartridge spectrum not only covered, but buried to about 6' deep!

I typically shoot a few hundred pdogs and gsquirrels each year with the 25 WSSM using (mostly) the 75 grain VMax in resized Federal WSSM brass and H4895 at about 3700 fps. Shoots flat, hits hard, and hits pretty close to wherever you put the intersection of the reticle's aiming point.

Jeff

..........Given your parameters using only for mule deer/whitetails out to 400 yards, imo the 7mm08 would be the best choice.

A 7/08 is all you would need and then some. Excellent 7mm bullet selections. The 7/08 (not that it would matter that much), would offer slightly better trajectories than the 308. And a 7/08 could easily graduate up to elk if needed to.

Cartridges based on the 308 parent casing are all excellent choices, but in your case the 7/08 gets my vote.

Anything really that's legal to hunt with....some may shy away from the 223 case but that's about it.... Have at it....

W

Whatever I have in my hands, whitetail haven't become bulletproof yet contrary to some.

An Army or Marine Sniper Team is expected to consistently hit a man sized target at 800 meters using 7.62 Nato match grade ammo.

Since the .308 Winchester and the 7.62 Nato are essentially the same cartridge this shows the POTENTIAL of using a 308 at half that distance.

400 is soooo much easier than 800. The End.

Yeah but do you know how many other cartridges could do the same put in the hands of the same shooters! Given any rifle able to consistently hold 2 MOA or better I'd lay money on all trained snipers in the military or LE of being able to consistently hitting a man sized target at 800 meters. The only reason the 7.62X51 is used is because that is what they are issued to use, given the choice I'd bet most of them would choose a different cartridge as well just like we do as hunters.

Being able to consistently hit a target at 800 meters doesn't show the potential of any cartridge it shows the potential of the person pulling the trigger. If the Armed forces still used the .30-06 the same standard would be expected of the snipers. The 5.56/.223 is capable of consistently hitting a man sized target at 800 meters and we all know how well talking about its "POTENTIAL" at 1/2 the distance on deer goes.



Amen Brother!

Roughly 2.5 MOA?

And that's the "potential" worthy of striving for?

There's a reason that they use the 7.62 NATO, and it's not purely "accuracy potential". Think logistics and lack of choice...

Please note I said they use "7.62 Nato match grade ammo". Not off the shelf ammo.

My point was in showing the "POTENTIAL" of the .308 Winchester.

All I can say as a service member is thanks for having that much faith in military decision making. However a lot of cartridges show potential that are never selected for military use.

As far as match grade ammunition showing potential you haven't shown the potential by emphasizing match grade ammunition. I tried to explain in my post what you described as a test of snipers skill can be easily pulled off by a 2 MOA rifle & cartridge as long as the shooter is up to the task. The majority of today's factory rifles can pull that kind of accuracy (2 MOA) with the cheapest ammunition available.

Taylorce1, tell us about your 250 build?

I know you said no wizzums... but.... a 7 wsm w a break kicks less in my 6.5lb (all up) than any of my 7-08/308s do.

250sav 300sav 300rcm. the rest is up to you. Just me thou.

250 Savvy works for me:



300 Savage waiting on an action:



6mm waiting on barrel & action:



Waiting really sux!!

And note that I'm talking target size, regardless of ammo or rifle.

You are impressed that they hit a silhouette, anywhere, at 800 yards. Look up the dimensions, do the math, and you'll see that any 2 1/2 MOA rifle/ammo combo is capable of hitting it. Heck, a 5 MOA rifle will hit it vertically, if you can call the wind right.

Not a lot of "potential" needed to achieve those standards.


Taylorce1 gets it...

Noting much to tell on it, and in fact I'm actually embarrassed that I took it to a GS to finish. I started a new job at the end of Feb, and just haven't had time to put it together. It was an older Stevens 200 originally in .243 and I'm having a GS install a 24" ER Shaw barrel and pillar bed it into an older B&C Medalist stock that doesn't have the bedding block. I used this old rifle as a test bed to see if I would like a certain cartridge before I go out and either buy a rifle or have one built. However it will probably stay a .250 Savage now that I went to all the trouble of having a GS do the work for me.

Speaking of .300 Savage rifles here is one I had built on a budget $450 in parts and GS fees. Not a SA but its on an Small ring Mauser that had been severly bubbaized I rescued for $50. Came across a short chambered .30-06 barrel cheap had the shank cut off and rethreaded, and then rechambered in .300 Savage. It wears a 2-7X35 Vortex Viper scope has a Bold trigger and is bedded in a Richard's Microfit stock. I need to work with it some more especially the stock needs some more attention (my first attempt at restocking a rifle in other than synthetic), but life is getting in the way right now.






Link to album: http://s143.photobucket.com/al...lorce1/93%20actions/

Best short action for deer out to 400?

Easy!

Any short 6.5mm: 6.5x47, 6.5 CM, 260 Rem, etc.

I've got two of the 6.5x47's and a 260. All three shoot numerous loads that will run 1/2 MOA and better.

I shot several sub 1/2 MOA groups at 717 yds yesterday with my light 6.5x47; 140 VLD, 130 AB and 126 LRX.

If you reload, you've got a potporri of components. If the -47, only Lapua makes factory; 100, 108, 123 and 139 Scenar's. The later two would be my choice.

The 6.5CM; Hornady makes some great ammo that will fit the bill; 120 Amax and GMX, 129 Interbond and SST, and 140 Amax.

260 Rem; Numerous manufactures.

Alan

The only short-action cartridge I've used to kill a mule deer at 400+ yards is the .308, and it worked fine, even when "handicapped" by only using a 150-grain bullet instead of a 165.

But have also killed enough big game out to 400+ with the .257 Roberts to know it would also work fine. Even finished off a pronghorn buck that somebody else had wounded at around 550--and the rifle uses in all those longer shots had the dreaded short action that's supposed to handicap the .257 so severely.

Oh, and the 7mm SAUM also works fine on longer-range caribou, so I'm guessin' it also would work on whitetails and mule deer.

In other words, I don't think it matters much if the shooter can shoot.

No offense and I'm not claiming expertitude here but I'm very skeptical that a 2, 2.5 MOA rifle can consistently print hits on a human torso at 800 yards.

Error, in shooting, is additive. If you start with a 2 MOA rifle rifle, then in absolutely windless conditions from a VISE rest you are printing roughly 16" groups at 800 yards. That's your best-case baseline, and it assumes that the 16" group is printed dead nuts centered on the target, which is not the case pretty much EVER at 800 yards. Add in some randomization from wind, human error, and so on and, well, there ya go.

Jeff,

You're not wrong but you're not totally right either. Good example is Carlos Hathcock and the .30-06 M70 Winchester he used for the majority of his ops in Viet Nam. It is well documented that his rifle was only a consistent 2 MOA rifle with a pitted bore, yet he was able to do amazing things with that rifle. My whole point to the discssion of "Match Grade" ammunition and Army snipers was it is really about the shooter more than anything else. If you have a rifle that is consistent in how it shoots and you are an exceptional marksman (the Military doesn't waste time with average) you can do things to overcome the shortcomings of your rifle/ammunition. However hitting center mass on a man sized target at 800 yards where killing and recovering isn't a necessary part of the equation is a lot different than trying to put a bullet into a roughly 8-10" diameter kill zone of a deer at 800 yards.

I'm not saying that everyone can shoot with this level of skill but if you can hold 2 MOA with your hunting rifle from most supported field positions you should be within the kill zone of an average sized deer at 400 yards. Of course that is if shooter has spent any time working at that range and developed the profiency to make the shot. Grouping better than 2 MOA is always a plus, but think about all the game you killed at 400 yards or less, would you have missed or had the wounded animal get away by not having a sub MOA rifle?

Agree at 400 yards; probably my lack of skill speaking but I can't agree about the 2 MOA/800 yds part. A human torso is about 16" across. There's just zero margin for error there, and nobody is perfect.

That said I'll buy that a 2 MOA rifle could be an effective weapon of war at 800 yds. But that's a different thing than saying it'll hit that torso every time.

Anyway... just talkin' here.....

Jeff, no doubt the 6.5 WSSM is a neat round but would be ltd in a 'micro' sized action w/COAL. I'd be curious as to how it might feed in a 2.8 or Wyatt 700 print.

Heard it's a good round but needs necks reamed. I've seen a B78 someone had done in a WSM, but the little WSSM case would be more my liking, and a Ruger #1 or 1885 Low Wall would satisfy.

I wish it would have been mfg. but not alot of love in the past in the US as you know for 6.5s. I see the tide turning though, alot of attn: in reviews on the Grendel, 260, Creedmoor, and 47 over time as you know.

The 25WSSM has ALOT of latitude however w/bullet weights and what it can do.

Some reading here if interested:

http://forums.wssmzone.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3233&whichpage=1

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?74450-Does-anyone-use-a-6-5-WSSM


http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3757098.0

It does not offer much over other SA rounds but is neat looking and has good speed and great accuracy potential. Purely for someone who wants to tinker w/a 'Cat'

+1

in the delusional category, I'd like to try a 6.5 SAUM on a SA Win WSM donor ( for the mag length )
Anyone play with that one ?

The standard "iron maiden" target the military uses is 20" wide by over 30" tall FWIW. Plus for the military a wounding shot is usually as good as a kill, as it is a drain on the enemies assets. We don't get that luxury when hunting.

Plus now that I think about it we are having some misscommunication going on. When I'm talking about 2 MOA and 800 yards I'm talking about a rifle that is known to consistantly print groups 16" or smaller at that range. When I refrenced Carlos Hathcock above his .30-06 in his hands shot groups of 20" or better at 1000 yards. I'm not talking about taking a 2 MOA at 100 yard rifle and expecting it to always place bullets in a group =/> 16" at 800 yards. Even though in theroy that is what should happen.

In my earlier Posts I never suggested shooting at Deer at 800 yds. Can we get off this tangent?

A skilled rifleman using an accurate 308WCF chambered rifle can harvest a Deer a 400 yds.

I don't know many of us out there can hit a Deer at 400 yds using any cartridge. But it has been done...

I killed one from a tower blind at over 500 yds with a 14" hold over his shoulder blades using a 270 Win. He stumbled maybe 10 yards before going down. The terrain was South TX brush and after looking for the deer for 2 hours, I took my father-in-law to where I thought was pretty close to where the deer had died. I went back to the blind and walked him right to the whitetail using hand signals. I'm not a fan of long shots anymore and neither are my eyes.
DMc

I'd go .308 or 7mm08, in that order. Why? Same short cartridge; edge to the heavier bullets available in .308. I, too, like 165 grainers.

Any of the .308-based cartridges should be perfect: .243 Win though .358 Win.

Personally, I like the ones in the middle of that range, the .260 Rem, 7mm-08, .308 and .338 Fed. All are plenty for any deer that has ever walked, and while heavy bullets are not needed for deer, all three are capable of handling heavier bullets if you ever felt a need to use them (elk, moose, bear, windy conditions, etc.).

Since it is deer only, I'd go with the lightest-recoiling of the "middlin" rounds and get myself a .260 Rem. Load it up with 100gr - 130gr bullets and go slay stuff.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I have owned and killed game with both the 6.5x.284 and the .284 Win. I dearly love both cartridges, and would consider both for an all-around rifle (if only Winchester/FN would come out with a Mod 70 bFeatherweight SS in .284 Win!!!!!). However, IMHO, their extra powder capacity is simply not needed for what you intend.

If I had to have a short action I'd go .300 WSM
Standard cart: .308 Win or 7-08 Rem.

I've killed deer over 400 yards with a 7RM and .30-06. Seen them shot at that distance with .243's and .25-06's, the larger calibers (>.284") put them down quicker out that far IME. Inside say 250 .243 to .300 RUM I can't tell a diff. Dead is dead.

Short action for deer? The 260 Rem really has no peer. Long skinny bullets that just keep on trucking, and no recoil.