Just wondering for those of you that break in barrels with the shoot one and clean for the first ten rounds and then clean every two for the next ten rounds, what kind of accuracy were you getting at this time? I just got through the first ten shots with my new rifle cleaning , oiling, and dry patching between shots and am getting 3 1/2" groups (for the ten shots). This is the first time I have kept track of groups during break in. I hope things tighten up considerably when I get serious!
Ain't nothin' to worry about.
I just went through the same procedure, several months ago, with a new Wby. Vanguard in .270 WSM. The factory target that came with the rifle was a nice, tidy .5" group, using Winchester Power Point ammo, so I knew it would at least shoot that stuff accurately. I bought two boxes of the Power Point, and confirmed that the rifle really liked this ammo.
I then purchased some Win. Supreme ammo, in 130 and 140 gr. bullet weights, Fail Safe and Ballistic Tip bullets, and Federal 140 gr. ammo with Accubond bullets. Guess what- all of this stuff shoots horrible in this rifle! But, no worries, I was still sighting in and testing several different options.
Once I had some brass accumulated, I began handloading. Tried Barnes 140 gr. TSX. Shot horrible again. I then went to Nosler Partitions, in 130 and 150 gr. weights. Bingo!! With Winchester brass, CCI 250 primers, and RL 22 powder, both these bullet weights gave me sub-moa groups, equalling that spectacular factory target which hooked me in the first place.
I now have two premium bullet loads, and one factory load, which will cover every situation I can possibly imagine with this rifle.
Yeah, the big groups are somewhat nervewracking, but you've got a long way to go yet. If you don't worry about it, it's actually a lot of fun!!
I have given up on barrel break in. I just shoot them and clean them when they need it. I tried it on some custom jobs once or twice, and I can't prove it helps anything.
No barrel break in on the last 3 aftermarket barrels and they are shooting just fine. In fact 2 of them are the most accurate rifles I have.
As always different strokes.............
I dont do any special barrel break in any more. The last 4 rifles I' ve bought new are factory rifle and their just as accurate as the firles I broke in properly. I think the shoot clean shoot clean crap is a waste of time in factory barrels.
BTW. I'm lazzy, I like to shoot but hate to clean rifles.
Jamie
My Sako Finnlight on 06 shot under moa right out of the box with Federal Premium 165gr BTSPs. No break in at all. It still shoots the same after three range sessions of 20 rounds, followed by normal cleaning. My last sako, which ended up being recalled and replaced by this one, was broken in using the method you stated, and shot the same. I see no need for the break in. JMO
Most barrel makers that I have seen quoted have stated that barrel break-in procedures are a waste of time and money and can even damage a new barrel (if you use an abrasive compound to "lap" the barrel). That procedure just puts thousands of rounds of wear on a new barrel within a few minutes and may even void a new barrel warranty. I just take the gun out of the box, clean it initially in case the manufacturer has left any "shavings" or other particles in the barrel) and shoot it and clean it normally after every range session.
I agree with the last several posters. Barrel break in's are a bunch of crap. Time well wasted. More barrels have been ruined this way than helped. I clean a new gun, and SHOOT it. I've proven to myself over the years that barrel break in's accomplish nothing. It's a "trend", nothing more. I have used the Tubb Fire Lap System on a few guns, and it's helped somewhat. It WILL polish up a barrel. Far more than scrubbing for endless hours with a cleaning rod. I have several guns that improve after having 30 or 40 rounds run through them. I've seen guys at the range clean for 15 minutes, then shoot for 5. Not my idea of a day at the range. billt
If you don't know how to properly clean a barrel or can't do so without damage then barrel break-in is not for you but neither is cleaning a bore at all. As far as voiding the warranty, I can't imagine a barrel company telling an owner not to clean the barrel after shooting, they can't know what number of rounds have been fired. It cannot be proven one way or the other if break-in helps since you can't have the same barrel twice. And if anyone here puts "thousands of rounds of wear" with cleaning, they need to return to square one and start learning how to clean properly.
I have a highly subjective method of break-in and after in excess of 50 rifles using this I have not had a problem so will stay with the method. This subject call be found on a search as it has been discussed.Rick.
witkor,
I bought myself a Savage .223 and shot the fifty shoot and clean routine. It took all day at the range. It will shoot ten shot groups at 200 yards that are only 7/8"
! A friend bought one and asked me to do the same for him. When I got to the range I realized the cleaning rod was at home. Shooting three shots was not going to hurt anything, I fugred, so I did. Using my load, the group was 3/8". I called the owner and asked what he wanted to do. He wanted to go rock chuch hunting. When we got together, he paced off 110 long steps. He decied on the ten extra steps just to be on the safe side. He laid some sand bags on the hood of the car and shot five into a group only sightly larger than my original three. His group was 4/10".
If you want to play with your new rifle, you might fire lap it to make it easier to clean. Otherwise go shooting
! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What the custom barrel makeres have to say about their products and how it compares to a factory barrel is apples and oranges. A factory barrel is usually rougher and gets fouled more and faster. Whether or not a break in helps or not will always be up for debate. When I clean my rifles I get all of the copper out. From time to time I read or hear of a pitted barrel. Corrosive primers haven't been around for years ( cheap mil-surplus not included) so why does it happen? Two dissimilar metals can cause galvanic corrosion and moisture can form between the copper plating and the bore. Cleaning the barrel properly won't hurt it. Lapping it yourself can damage it.
Thanks for all the reply's everyone. Well I got the break in done. Now I need to get out and see how this thing will shoot without the cleaning between shots.
No wonder you got a 3-1/2" group. If you'd just shot the rifle without all the rest of the dancing around, the group probably would have been 1-2".
I have done a lot of experimenting with "break in" techniques and have yet to find any difference between cleaning every round and cleaning every 10-30 rounds--such as, say, cleaning only between range sessions--for ending up with a good-shooting barrel.
I have also done a lot of reading over the years and have yet to find any other experiments on the one-shot-clean method of break-in. Evidently somnebody just suggested it out of the clear blue one day and many shooters have been slavishly following this mystery advice ever since.
MD
Thanks for the reply Mule Deer. I really wasn't sure if I wanted to do the break in or not so I called Kimber and they told me I should do it following Ed Brown's procedure. Anyway, it's done, so now I need to go shoot some groups. I don't think I'll waste my time doing this again though!
I've gone through the ritual for the last dozen or so rifles I've bought, and have had exceptionally good luck with accuracy from factory barrels. However, I've also been as uptight about load development as I could, which plays a much bigger factor. Long story short, I didn't break in the barrel of my new .338 because components (mostly the bullets) cost enought to change my mind. I'm still in the earlier stages of load fiddling so the verdict isn't out yet, but in the end, it wouldn't prove anything one way or the other. I do think that some good initial scrubbing on a new bore to remove factory dirt is a reasonable step, and also so judicious use of JB polish on the clean bore to smooth out the micro burrs prior to shooting the first time. Again, no proof, just my feelings.
222Rem
Mule Deer,
Does the suggestion of "seasoning" a bore make sense
as suggested by Badger Barrels?
http://www.badgerbarrelsinc.com/Click: Barrel Specifics
MD - thanks for those thoughts - it is always refreshing to find someone (especially someone who has earned the respect that you have) who notices that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. Best, John
I have had good luck with judicious fire lapping and a little JB bore polish as my break in method.
safariman
My "barrel break in" these days is to try the trigger. If I'm not happy with it I usually just lube it with a fluoropolymer lube ( I use Tetra). I lube it and work the trigger a few hundred times then take it out to shoot. My first cleaning I usually use J-B to clean it, unless it was stellar as is then I just use a copper or other cleaner as needed. Like a cartridge case I prefer not to work it more than nbecessary for prolonged life.
Lubing the trigger mechanism with the fluro lube (and dry firing to break in) has seemed to help big time with triggers I was not satisfied with at first pull. My Armalite AR 10 comes immediately to mind. It now shoots 5 shot usually moa or less groups and I haven't put a dime extra into it.
P.S. Altho I sure some sears are so rough that only smith work alone can improve it, I won't buy a gun unless they let me check the trigger pull. A large part of which gun I choose to purchase is this evaluation. I'm just not happy with spending 6 bills or more on a gun and then figure all these addition costs, and it's become my habit when checking out a firearm. YMMV. Factory barrels have gotten a bad name but most are capable of all the accuracy that 95% of all shooters are capable of using. We happen to have many very experienced shooters at the campfire and we are discerning. The other 95% may never notice the difference they're spending their money on and this is one of the tricks I use, and have been pleased by.
Jian wa
I agree that the trigger is far far more important than most shooters know. I often replace the trigger return spring with a lighter unit and add a good lube and find this works wonders much of the time. But sometimes a barrel does need a little smoothing up which is when I fire lap (MODESTLY!!) and finish up with the JB routine. Good luck!!
Safariman
I�ve done the break-in routine on my last 5 new rifles (2 300 WSM, 2 270 WSM, 1 270 Win), two of them re-barreled with custom barrels after trying the factor barrels, for a total of 7 barrels. I kept notes on all of them. The one area where I know break-in makes a difference is in cleaning. The 5 original factory barrels fouled to a degree after one shot, one of them was a true bastard. I should have recovered a bullet and weighted it to see how much copper it left behind in the barrel. It was that bad.
I kept track of how many patches it took to clean after each shot. I ran 4 wet patches through 4 of them, the last 1 clean. The stubborn rifle took 30 wet patches and still wasn�t clean. The 4 had sudden break points where cleaning became even easier. I still ran 4 wet patches through them, but the last 3 came out clean. (I don�t count the first patch. That one applies the cleaner only. Barnes.) The stubborn one never came out clean even after 200 rounds. (I stopped the one shot and clean after 20 rounds. Fanaticism never solved anything.) It was so bad that the muzzle end inside looked like a penny all the way around after one shot, and it shot like hell. That one went to market.
This is the one argument that the guys that think break-in is �crap� can�t win because every argument they make, other than it�s crap, can�t be proven.
Arguments for break-in: New barrel, not sighted in, you have to sight it in, one shot and clean while sighting in is no big problem. This way, all shots on paper come out of a clean, cold barrel and give an accurate appraisal of cold zero on the new toy even without a sweet load. I use cardboard off appliance packing and don�t adjust the scope until I have three shots on paper. I don�t adjust powder either until I have the scope reasonably close to zero.
Does it help accuracy? There is room for argument, but the argument will have to go on without data, because if you break in, you will never know the accuracy of not breaking in, and if you don�t break-in, you�ll never know the potential you might achieve if you did follow the break-in routine, and like working up a load, your can�t really compare one rifle to another.
Does it hurt? Evidence is on the side of no. You�re cleaning. How can that hurt? (If you do it right.)
I also have to add that my shooting bench is less then 50 feet from my loading bench. It�s easy for me to do. I can load a round, shoot it, check and mark the target, then clean and load the next round. By then the barrel it clean and cold.
If you break in the barrel as you have been taught "ad nauseaum" in the shooting mags and it shoots ok you will be happy.
If you don't do it and just blast away and the rifle shoots 2 inch groups, you will never know if it would have helped.
Nothing like superstition to make you feel that you did everything you could have done.
Reposting something I posted a while ago...
Ya know, this is all just anecdotal and always will be until someone puts out some statistically significant empirical evidence�
Someone take 40 barrels from the same maker, all made in sequence. Mix every other one so you have the �odd� barrels in one group and the evens in the other. Chamber them all with the same reamer, again going back and forth, even and odd. Put them all on the same trued receiver. Break in one batch but just start shooting the other and follow each barrel over the course of a 2000 round life. Run air gauges capable of millionth inch accuracy down the barrels to measure actual fouling buildup about every 100th round. Clean them every 100th round � right down to bare metal. Record just how many seconds of soaking with Sweet�s it takes to get to bare metal, or maybe how many passes of JB. Use bullets from the same lot, primers from the same lot and all powder from the same lot. Lessee, 40 barrels, 2000 rounds each, that�s um, 80,000 rounds. Keep records of groups; maybe get an aggregate average of all barrels in each group. Make sure you shoot them in a temperature controlled, indoor range with no air currents. Make sure you record any minute dimensional or metallurgical differences in the brass and factor in those differences.
Then come back and tell us is the differences in:
Overall aggregate accuracy difference between batches.
Statistics on cleaning � how many seconds of Sweet�s soaking or passes with JB
How much actual buildup of fouling in microns over 100 rounds.
Anything else you think is important.
Start with a cartridge with the expansion ratio of the .308.
Then do it all again with say, a 7mm Shooting Times Westerner or maybe a .257 Weatherby.
Then do it all again with something along the lines of a .358 Winchester.
Lessee, so far we�re up to 240,000 rounds of ammo and 120 barrels. Damn � that�s a good receiver ain�t it? Wonder if dimensional changes in it over 240,000 haven�t spoiled the test?
Then, on your deathbed, tell us if there is really, really, absolutely, more than a gnat hair�s worth of difference between the two methods that would prevent one from hitting a prairie dog at 400 yards, an elk at 300 or a buffalo at 50. As Ken Howell likes to quote from, IIRC, P.O. Ackley � �The gravitational pull of the moon affects the trajectory of a bullet, but not enough to worry about.�
Then have your children do it all over again with a slightly different method of breaking in to see if there is a difference between �shoot one, clean for 5 rounds, then shoot three and clean for 10 then shoot 5 and clean for 20� versus �shoot one and clean for 10, shoot three and clean for 20� versus � shoot one and clean for 20, then shoot 5 and clean for the next 20� versus any other method any barrel maker has ever mentioned. Let us know the effects of each different method of breaking in.
My take? It�s a hobby � have fun, knock yourself out. If breaking in a barrel blows air up your kilt and you enjoy the breeze, then it�s a good thing. If not, then don�t worry about it.
Jim in Idaho...
AMEN AND AMEN! Let's go shooting! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Did not some one in Shooting Times[rick Jamison?] shoot 1000 rounds of molly bullets in 22-250 without cleaning-If I remember it shot as well at the end as the begining.They had borescope pictures.I lent this magazine to a good friend- his wife cleaned his books in their bed room into the garbage bin.I never got it back but laugh every time I think of him bin diving for his books. Well worth it!
I just clean every 30 rounds or so.I do take a new gun apart -check and clean well before shooting it the first time.I cut my own patches so they fit the jags I'm using.I try to keep a consistant bore condition.You can feel in the rod when you have to clean.
You do have to do this properly using good rods ,brushes and real bore guides carefully.I see more people cleaning properly now than twenty years ago and we have better products to do it with with less effort.
Glenn
I generally give a new barrel a chance to shoot well and not foul badly before I start tinkering. If the new toy does not shoot as well as it should or if it fouls easily I use firelapping and JB bore polish to smooth it up. Works wonderfully when needed. Spending the extra $$ for match grade barrels from good barrel makers usually precludes all of this.
safariman
Jim in Idaho
Right on man.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie
As Ken Howell likes to quote from, IIRC, P.O. Ackley � �The gravitational pull of the moon affects the trajectory of a bullet, but not enough to worry about.�
"The moon affects the trajectory but not enough to worry about." (P O didn't know nearly as much about such things as Homer did. And Homer didn't use many unnecessary words.)
.
Ken - I've said it before - you're a treasure for information such as this - like you said, the book of random information would be just too much, but maybe someone can come up with some sort of device to insert some wires into your head and transfer it all to a computer disk or something. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the information and best as always, John
JinI - not only a good post, but I love the phrase about air up one's kilt - I am going to have to remember that one and steal it. Best, John
Ken,
Thanks, I stand corrected. However many words one uses, I always liked that quote.
Also like the one about measuring barn rafters with micrometers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />