Well guys looking at getting another SS lightweight rifle. Thinking a 308, or 7mm-08 with a max barrel length of 20" but more like 16"-18". I really would like to try out a Kimber Montana or the Adirondack. But the price and availability of the Adirondack is a bit troubling. So how much to get the barrel cut an crowned on the Montana or what other Rifles would you recommend and what length would be the shortest to go. This will be a Deer, Elk, and Bear rifle or the Quad truck and every day hunting when the Nula needs a nap.

Tom, I'd just get the standard Kimber MT in 7-08 or 308. Cutting and crowning is usually $35-$45 absolute MAX. My smith charges $35.

Personally, while I love carbines and have owned a pile with 18-21" barrels, I find the Montana "just right" at 22" due to the fact its receiver is shorter than a typical SA rifle.

If I did want one cut, I'd not go below 20" to preserve its balance, and 21" would be great.

Just my opinion...

Even though the old Remington 600s are a favorite they've convinced me that 18" is too short for higher pressure or capacity rounds due to muzzleblast. Less than 20" barrels are now for me restricted to handgun cartridges up to mild rounds like .30-30 and .35R. An 18" barreled .30-06 (742) or .350RM (600) just dumps too much gas too near.

Ruger Internationals.

Either the No.1 (20") or a 77 (18.5").

Oops! Forgot the SS bit. IIRC, some of the 77 RSI were done in SS and you can get a SS No.1A that makes for a pretty light, compact rifle (almost grabbed a Lipsey's in .257 Bob).

Ruger Laminate Compact, Ruger American All Weather Compact those are 2 SS models I can think of.
Other compacts I can think of are Rem model 7 Win. model 70 but theyre not SS

I've got a few different light weight rifles and another on it's way, but have had a Stainless Model 7 (20") for years. Always felt kinda whippy, but recently dropped it in a Brown FS stock. What a world a difference that made to the rifle.

6 lbs 1 ounce with a Leupold 2-7 and talleys. Thinking about a light weight bolt shroud to drop it below 6 (just because).

Heck of a woods rifle in my opinion.


edit:

Forgot to add, you get much below 18" and things get to damn loud. My 16" XP-100 (.308) is deafening. I have yet to shoot my braked XP-100 (.260).

Thanks for the picks guys just need the shortest barrel for the Quad so it doesn't hang over and I love the lightweight rifles. I don't like taking the Nula on the quad hangs over to much and if I dump it over it would be a. $5000 mistake. So I'm leaning to the Montana but still might cut it to 18". Anybody cut one this short?

Tom, get it in your hands and let the rifle tell you what to do... might be 18", might be 19 or 20"...

I have to agree with Rovering. n 18" barrel is too short for anything but maybe a pistol cartridge. I personally wouldn't go shorter then 20" and only with short standard rounds like .308, 7mm-08, .260, etc. Even a Winchester 94 .30-30 most commonly has a 20" barrel.

Years ago I had a Husqvarna Lightweight .30-06. Though I loved the rifle it had a rather impressive muzzle flash with some loads. I sure wouldn't want anything shorter the it's 20" barrel.

Balance is SOOOOO important, and often overlooked. That point has recently been driven home for me. My Kimber 308 is just a hair under 6 lbs with the Leupold scope and 22" barrel. The balance is perfect and offhand shooting is no problem with such a lightweight rifle.

I recently bought one of the compact Ruger Americans in 223 thinking it might make a good walking around rifle and even a compact deer rifle for out local 100 lb deer. Even with the 18" barrel it is still 7 lbs scoped. Trying to shoot offhand is much more difficult. Even though it is heavier, the sights wander all over the target. It will still work for my needs, but I've never felt handicapped with a 22" barrel.

I know I need to feel it. But I see the adirondack is a 18" barrel. Also I don't want to pay to cut it 2 or 3 times, also once it's cut and I feel it's to short it's more $ for a new barrel. I guess this is the cost for beings gun nut.

A 20" 30-06 I had many years turned out to be the ultimate point and shoot rifle for me...a 20" 308 should be just as balanced for you. 20" seems short enough, but even at 18", a 308 doesn't lose much or blast enough to be concerned about...you can't say that about most other rounds.

Howa makes a nice 20" compact rifle in stainless. I like my Howas... A cut-down Montana would be like a willow wand, but for a 4x4 beater rifle like you want, a $400 Ruger American Compact stainless, when they're available, or just a cut-down Hawkeye shouldn't offend anyone's sensibilities around here too much.

When you dump it, just dust it off and ride on...

If you are used to the ergo of the NULA, why not get a Forbes 20B in .308. IIRC, they come with a 21" barrel. You could try it on for size , and then shorten down the road.

Of course if it has to be all SS, you may have to wait a while.

...short barreled .308s...I have several and for as little one fires a hunting rifle it just doesn't make that much difference to me.

Remington 600 18.5"

Ruger Frontier 16.5"

Ruger GSR 18" barrel plus a 1.5" flash hider.

Remington Model 7 Stainless/Synthetic 20"

SAKO TRG 20"

My favorite length of all is the 18.5". That is where "balance" is best for me.

Bob

My deer hunting rifle last year was a Remington SPS heavy barrel 20 inch. Nice and compact and shot really well. Reason I got rid of it was it weighted about 12 pounds. I am in the same boat as the opening post, but I'm pretty set on a Kimber 84M or if I pony up enough a Kimber Ascent.

SPS 700 SS in 7mm-08, cut back to 20" and bedded in a light stock, like an Edge or Ti. With a 2-7 or 6x36 Leupold, it will go around 7lbs, be short/handy, yet still balance nicely with the standard contour. I did the same, using a 660 action, 700 barrel, and Edge. Great truck gun and one of my favorites.

the older M7 FS and KS were short/light

I had one of the first .250-3000 Ruger's made in an RSI. I wanted to save the stock so I put the barreled action in a Bell and Carlson camo stock...and it was heaven. 4x Leupold and I was off to the races. Killed a lot of deer w/that little rifle before a man saw it and wanted it for his son. powdr

16.5", 6.5x47, kills nice buck at 483 yds, long barrels and big cartridges not needed........


http://forum.snipershide.com/sniper...ll-stick-has-arrived-16-5-6-5x47l-2.html

But 16.5" has got to be loud. I think 18.5" is fairly loud, so I go 20" more often than not.

I bought an older model 7 with the 18.5 inch barrel and thought I would not like it, but it turned out to be an amazingly fun gun to hunt with - very light and nimble. I didn't notice the muzzleblast at all when I took three deer with it.

I agree JPro - as to blast when hunting, I wear plugs, but I like to shoot alot at the range too, so muff + plugs help, but you can only counter so much blast.

For strictly a hunting rifle, alot of folks have discovered that handy carbines can be deadly. 19-20 is about my limit though figured many times a 17" or so in 6.5BR would be the cats azz for modest recoil and blast, though deer poison to most ranges.

Many using Grendel's in that role - I just don't want to chase brass from an AR......

I bought a Ruger Hawkeye SS Ultralight in 30-06 a few years back. It has a 20" barrel and balances well. I've considered loading 180's in it and taking it elk hunting. They aren't made any longer but a bit of searching would likely turn one up. I know they made them in 308. I tried finding a 308 for a awhile and came across the 30-06. I'm glad I picked the 30-06. I get 24" barrel 308 vels and not much more recoil. The gun is surprisingly shootable.

Here is a pic of blued model on sale at cdnn right now.

I've got a 700 TI 7mm-08 I'm going to get the barrel cut and crowned to 20".

Short and light has it's place...



Show me a better ladder blind gun in a dense thicket.


DMc

That's BS. Tho I will stipulate YMMV. Be it noted that I ain't much for target shooting....and under field conditions, I just don't notice anything much other but bang/flop. Or short run and flop. Especially in open country. And in short-range situations, any damned thing will work, properly placed.

Quite some years ago I acquired ($80) a standard Ruger 77 '06 with a muzzle bulge and so chopped it to 17 inches. Was s'posed to be a knock around "boat gun" but it grouped so well after the chop that I took it sheep hunting and killed a ram at @ 330yds. 4 days later a moose at 70 yds. Damned short hunting season! Since killed various game with it out to a caribou at 356 (paced) yards. True- it's got some drop-off at range...

After that first season, I docked the butt and fore-end and trimmed stock down some to esthetic "carbine" proportions ("for the wife" ) .. Pre-dating the Ruger edition by a few years....Mostly I use it, with a slip on 1" pad over the Decelerator pad for my LOP... A favorite...

I put it right up front for shots to 400 yards with my 22" .260 Rem 725, and 27 " Mauser heavy bbl '06.

Assuming good groups, all ya really gotta know is the range (lasered) and bullet drop (preferably from field trial, but book values will work) of caliber/bullet weight. It ain't rocket science - just a bit of detail, and bbl length has very little significance if you do your homework.

Of course, most hunting shots for most NA hunters are within 200 yards, so all this other chit just doesn't matter all that much.

Currently where I live most of my shots are 300 to 450 yards.. And I could, and have used the 17 inch bbled '06. Currently tho, I only have the .260 and Mauser up here..

All my (including several not mentioned) rifles kill at reasonable range, tho I could push the Mauser and the .338 RU 77 to 500 if need be.

Actually, the rifles are way better than me....

I should mention the Rem 725 .260 has a lightweight stainless 700TI take-off bbl purchased from David Walther thru Campfire ads. Screwed right on, exactly upside down, with perfect head space....


That's one I made out on......

I have been using a Model 70 Classic Short Action Custom Compact in .308 for many years. Winchester has started making them again. Check them out. I think you will like them. I use 180 Nosler Partition bullets with it for deer and most shot are DRT (dead right there).

When Ruger came out with the 77RL I got one. In 308, 20" barrel, carries like a 22, has killed elk out to 300 yards with Nosler 180 SBs and scoped with a compact leupy 3x9.
Don't remember ever needing a second shot on anything.
jmho
Tim

Carbines I've had:

Ruger 77 RLS 30-06 (18.5")
Ruger 77 RS 358 Win (19")
Ruger 77 RL 257 Rob (20")
Ruger 77 RSI 308 Win (18.5")
Ruger 77 RSI 7x57 (18.5")
Ruger 77 RSI 250-3000 (18.5")
Winchester 70 SS FWT 308 (19" w/ open sights)
Winchester 70 SS FWT 30-06 (21" w/ open sights)
Remington M7 SS 308 Win (20")

All that to say I'm not exactly a stranger to the concept... depending how they balance, I really like them, apart from the M7. Still, I'd not go shorter than 20" anymore, depending. Short barrels are LOUD. And I always thought the Ruger RSI should have been made with a 20" barrel.

Still, I'd not cut a Kimber 84M MT below 21", maybe 20". I'd bet the balance would be lost in that light rifle below that length.

I'm in with the group that is concerned about the muzzle blast in shorter barrels.

My first centerfire rifle was a 270 W. with a 20" barrel and my best friend's rifle was a Model 600 Remington with a 18.5" barrel. We shot them quite a bit with no hearing protection and thought we were just fine.

Years later the sins of youthful exuberance have come back to haunt me with a heavy dose of tinnitus that is constant and suddenly got much worse about 2 years ago.

I have worn hearing protection while target shooting for decades, but in spite of that have constant ringing.

Currently I have a 20.5" 9.3X62, a 20.5" 30-06, a 20" 223 and a 20.5" .22 LR. To shoot them I use plugs and muffs. I also wear plugs while hunting because even a 22" barreled 257 Roberts made my ears ring a few years ago after shooting an antelope.

I like short, handy rifles; (especially full stocked ones) but unless you are careful to protect your hearing in my experience there is a price to pay later.

Jim Carmichael wrote an article several years ago outlining his experience with hearing damage that is well worth reading.

..........Well I`d have to agree with a previous poster, who on this thread wrote BS.

18" barrel too short for anything but a pistol cartridge uh? Oh really now.

Well maybe when a pistol cartridge can move a 30 cal 180 grainer from 2700 to 2800 fps with factory ammo and just over 2900 fps with RL17 only, a 168 grainer at 3038 fps w/RL17 only and the 150-155s to just over 3200 fps w/RL17 only,,,then I might tend agree with you.

www.gunblast.com/Ruger_FrontierRifle.htm

That`s my little "mighty mouse" which is identical to Quinn`s test rifle. My Frontier has been bedded and floated however.

Yeah it is loud. But hearing protection should be worn anyway whether on the range or in the field with "ANY" short or longer barreled centerfire rifle.

And this business of muzzle blast from short barrels? Way over-rated (exaggerated) imo.

While some don`t have the tolerance level to handle the shorter tubes; many do.

Not the guy to ask, JB might chime in, but there are differences among various powders/burn rates, re: flash.

Now alot of folks I have read say run fast burning powders for short bbls, perhaps that helps flash, but for max speed, I understand that the same powders that work best in standard length bbls, also do best in shortened bbls - with same bullet weights........

Never noticed flash much while looking thru a rifle scope, blast yes.

Now if you want to see FLASH and BLAST, take a M29 4" and run a cylinder of Keith 240 loads thru it at dusk, you'd think a grenade went off in your hand!

Blast is subjective...but changes do occur as you go shorter, likely more so in large capacity cases like the magnums....

When I was young and single I had a local gunsmith rebarrel a commercial Mauser 98 with a 19" 7x57 barrel.

I found it to be pleasant to shoot and not terribly loud. On a farm I used to hunt on, the lady of the house said the could never tell when I shot a deer. When I was previously using a 22" 243 Win...she said it was very loud and knew it was me.

Dan

Lots of the " long range handgun " shooters use bolt actioned " pistols " with 16-18" barrels AND they use cases up to 338 Lapua Improved. They seem to survive.

Featherweight 22" or featherweight compact 20"

Model 70 Compact lgwt PF in some ugly plastic stock(?), 308, 20" picked it out of the local 'shopper' classifieds. I paid what the fella asked and ran before he changed his mind. I put it into a nice looking wood laminate handle as a "winter project" to give me something to do between snow storms and plowing. Perfect little shooter in a box blind, tree stand or creeping through the swamp or the cottonwoods. I think he shot it a "lot" maybe 2 or even 3 boxes ever. I am sooo ashamed of myself. Well, not really.

Jeff Cooper arrived at 19in as the ideal length for a 308 in the Scout Rifle. He said that was long enough and saw no benefit in a shorter barrel.

Good thread and info.

Hearing protection is mandatory in any shooting situation if one wants to live tinitus-free.....

If you think that statement through, you'd realize mostly those "pistols" are shot prone with a bipod or improvised rest with the barrel a bit further away from the shooters ears than the average 22" barrel is shot shoulder mounted.

Also, not being shoulder mounted further reduces the possibility of hearing damage... hearing damage also results from the sound and vibration traveling THROUGH the stock, to the cheek, into the Cochlea/Inner Ear, in spite of wearing the best hearing protection. Fiberglass stocks are worse than wood in this regard.

And of course "surviving" is a relative thing... I prefer to prosper rather than just survive, and keeping my hearing as intact as possible is part of thriving to me.

Hearing damage is a terrible thing...

I have tried some shorter barreled hunting rifles, since I hunt here in the northeast as well as out west;and frequently hunt thicker cover out there, too.

Being honest with myself I have yet to find anything much better than a pre 64 M70 FW chambered 30/06 with a 22" barrel.A light synthetic does not hurt.The rifle and chambering just works.

I do use a 270 just like it now and then. I have also liked a 7/08 but that one had a 20" barrel...I really did not like it as well and would prefer 22".

If I were in Alaska or Africa I might consider a light 375H&H with a 22-23" barrel.

I agree Bob, my years of short barreled rifles are behind me, and the shortest I'll use anymore is 21", with 22'-24" suiting me better, depending.

My 308 Kimber MT has such a short receiver, that its 22" barrel "feels" shorter.

Both my M70 375 H&H's had 22" barrels, and that's as short as I'd go with that round. 4 of my 338 WM's had 22" barrels, which is about right, but I'd definitely not go shorter. Had a 22" bbl'd 300 WSM, but think the round needs a 23-24" barrel, and wouldn't go any shorter than 23."

And so on...

I shoot a TC Encore with a 17" MGM barrel in .260 Rem. Brad is right - the perceived muzzle blast when I have it set up as a carbine is noticeably worse than when shooting it as a pistol.

I've had Rem. 600's in .308 and .243 and an early 700 ADL in .30-06 w/ a 20" bbl. My view is that the short action rounds have less muzzle blast (noise and flame) than the long ones, so much so that I re-barrelled the .30-06 w/ a 24" .270 bbl. The 18.5" on the M600 .308 was also pretty "active", so my current bush gun is a Kimber Classic in .308 w/ the barrel shortened to 20". Blindfolded, I have a hard time telling the difference between it and my Rem. 504 (until the trigger is pulled). This is about as much noise and recoil as I am willing to tolerate any more, and the short, light receiver makes up for any weight/handiness saving you might get with a shorter barrel.

Just my 2 cents.

Matching cartridge to barrel length is the key. I've had short barreled .350 Rem Mag, 376 Steyr and even a 18.5" barreled 7mm-08 that where real flame throwers.

Cartridge efficiency is key to short barrels. I generally do not have any shoots past 350 yards, so a "big gun" is not needed.

The original poster needs for Elk might rule out any cartridge suitable for super short barrels (16"-18").

If going with a .308 based cartridge I would recommend 19" plus.



Going lower than 18.5" it would be something in the smaller class.

6.8 SPC is pleasant out of super short 16.5" barrels.

I'd not go below 20" anymore, though I do own some 18.5s. They're too loud for me in anything past a 223.

I prefer 21 or 22 for all-around.

Brad: Yup!

At the end of the day for me it's 22" to 24" on a BG rifle.

I just wrapped up a 20" Kimber MT build in .308. Shooting it tomorrow for the first time.

That looks very nice. It appears that you put a bit heavier contour on it than factory?

No sir, just trimmed it back to 20".

Ceracote and a repaint?

Looks very nice.

IonBond metal finish and I'm buddies with some guys at McMillan, so I had them shoot the stock with their textured black paint.

This started off as a half-hearted "I think it would be cool if..." sort of project, and it turned out to be a pretty sweet rifle in the end. I'll know if it's a keeper after I shoot it tomorrow.

Thank you.

Did you bed it?

I'm not familiar with IonBond, will have to look that one up.

Let us know how it shoots... again, really nice work, looks great!

Yes, pillar bedded. If it doesn't shoot, I'll set the bbl back a revolution and use a match reamer to clean it up. If THAT doesn't work, I'll have a Krieger screwed onto it.

Thank you for the compliments! After handling it, I'm pretty dedicated to making this form factor work.

I'll post target pic's under a new thread over the weekend.

Thank again!

I myself prefer 18-20" on most of my hunting rifles. Though my Ruger 338 still wears a 24" barrel plus muzzlebrake for a total length of around 25.5" and my Kimber Talkeetna still has the standard 24" barrel on it as well though I wish it was around 21".

I find the balance is still fine with 18"-20" in my rifles and still can shoot them fine. But mine are strictly for hunting so not really too concerned about if my 3 shots can be covered by a time, but more or less concerned that its within 1.5" at 100 yards and I can still keep it inside 6" circle from field positions at 300 yards.

I really like short rifles with 18-20 inch barrels. But, over the years, I've found I shoot better with a 24 inch barrel, especially on running game.
I have the impression that a longer barrel puts more weight out in front where it allows the rifle to swing more smoothly and allows the rifle to settle down faster as I'm getting ready to shoot.
I'm also of the opinion that one should buy his rifles as he wants them. If you can't decide between say a 22 inch barrel and a 24 inch one, then buy it with a 24 inch barrel and hunt it a few seasons. After that, you may or may not want to cut it shorter. E