Here are all the targets I shot yesterday with my new Kimber Montana 7mm-08. All with various factory ammo since I'm still assembling my reloading equipment. I included all targets, not just the good ones.

Here's the rifle for anyone who didn't see my previous post. I mounted a Kahles AH 2-7X36 with Warne Maxima bases and Burris signature Zee medium rings.


After removing the bolt,sighting down the barrel at 25 yards, and aligning the scope (my method of boresighting) I moved the target to 50 yards and proceeded to the sight in.



The three with tape over them were just to center the scope. I made adjustment after each of those three shots. Then I shot this 4 shot group at 50 yards.


Now I moved to 100 yards. Same ammo as shot at 50 Remington green and yellow box 120 grn hp. This is actually my second target at 100 yards as I seem to be missing the scope adjustment target at 100 with the Rem 120 hp. Anyway here are two 3 shot groups after a cool down in between.

Not so great,a little disappointing.


Now I figure it may not like the Rem ammo , so I switch to Federal Fusions and do some tweeking. I retighten my mounts. I got a half turn on a couple screws. Then I loosened my action screws and tightened the front first and kept it tighter than the rear. The fusions are a bit hotter and print high but I got a nice group except for one I knew was off at the shot.

Now I decided to tighten the rear action screw a bit and see if maybe just the ring tightening did the trick. Two more groups with the Fusion 120's, after a cool down between.

Not too pleased with this, but I know my accuracy is suffering possibly as much from bench technique as from the rifle. I can see minute movement in the center at each shot.


Now I just switch to 140 grn Fusion and fire three with no adjustment. You see those three on the left. I'm going to have to leave soon since I've spent a bunch of time already between cooling off the gun and waiting on some locals. I just go ahead and shoot three with the Hornady American classic 139 grn Interlock (group on the right)

Not too bad, both groups are low, but hovering right around 1.5"


Now, it's getting late, I have to get started to get ready for church, so I decide to try an adjustment again of the action screws. It seemed to shoot better with the front tighter so I try that again. I made a scope adjustment after measuring the Hornady group and shot this 3 shot 100 yard group that will cover with a dime. I chose the 139 Hornady over the 140 Fusion because I noticed the Hornady felt tighter in the chamber and I have experienced better accuracy from my Sako with factory ammo that felt this way. This is my last group of the day.I decided to leave on a positive note and was very happy.


I know I need more range time to confirm things and I need to get started loading but all in all , I think I won at Kimber roulette.

Has the rifle been rebedded? Trigger tuned? is the magazine box bottoming out in the stock?

Also, are you shooting off a firm front rest and letting the gun jump, or are you gripping the forearm?

Rifle has not been rebedded. Just the action screw adjustments I mentioned. The mag box did not bind from the factory. When I removed the spring and follower and reassembled the mag box would move around a bit.

I shot from sandbags but tried to grip the rifle. I could tell I was positioned better on the good groups with less input from me needed to be on target. I think with a few adjustments, possibly a skim bedding, hand loaded ammo, and some practice of bench technique, I'll have a real shooter.

While not all targets were great, I see enough promise to think I have an excellent rifle.

I had one in 270 WSM. I was shooting Winchester Supreme XP3 ammo into 1" groups at 200 yards. Don't let the forearm jump on the rest and it should shoot fine with the right load. I should have kept mine!

It show's promise. You'll be very happy when you skim bed it.

Someone should start a thread on how to shoot light rifles from the bench and field positions. I'm sure there are tricks to the trade that our Kimber pros have figured out.

Just proves my point that I'd rather buy a Savage.

Find ShortActionSmokers thread on tuning up a Kimber and some of the tricks he learned from Stick if my memory is correct . A little pressure at the end of the for-end is one of them.

Most wouldn't do it, but if it was me I would think about a full length bedding.

Sounds like something is putting the action in a bind when you tighten both screws. Or maybe the rear screw is too long...

If you can't appreciate the difference between a Salvage and a Montana you don't need to waste your money on one.

After I learned a bit about how to shoot it and tweeked it, I shot just as good a group as I've ever shot with any factory rifle with factory ammo. It is a little harder to shoot than a heavier rifle but that's why bench rest shooters don't shoot 5 lb. rifles.

And you would be shooting a Savage. Lifes to short to shoot ugly rifles. That group is fine for this point in time.

Thanks a bunch. I could have just posted the two great groups and left it at that but I wanted to show the whole picture. It is a little more difficult to shoot than a heavier rifle. I could see every movement of my shoulder muscles transferred to the sight picture. I do think I learned a lot and successive trips will be even better. The main thing though is that it shot well enough when I knew I was doing my part that I am confident the rifle will shoot very well.

Dumb question, but how skittish are they when shooting offhand and other field positions?? I'm used to "heavy" rifles..

Hate to say this but not bedding it properly is a waste of time and ammo. A rifle can't be sorted out properly if there are underlying issues with it.

Eliminating variables is where it's "at".

I wouldn't be apologizing for stating the obvious. I totally agree with you.

I don't disagree. I just think I need a little more range time to assure myself that there is a bedding issue. I know the torque adjustments and the seemingly correlations to accuracy strongly indicate that but I know how it felt shooting it for those good groups also. I know that those good groups were produced when I had downward pressure and a more solid rest. Some of the others were on target when they went off but required muscle tension to be there.

I'll shoot some more and if I still find shifting POI, I'll be looking into getting it bedded. One problem is that I don't know anyone close and would rather not go through shipping.

I'll let you know when I assure myself that it will shoot from a good rest. This is just the first day I spent with it. The main thing is that I don't think there is anything wrong that can't easily be corrected. I don't see how a bad barrel or chamber would have produced any groups like the two good ones.

Congrats on a good rifle.

I agree with you and appreciate you taking the time to post real honest results. I also agree with Karnis in that it sounds like your rifle needs to be properly glass bedded. A properly glass bedded rifle will not have such a strong reaction to varying action screw torque. I can also see your POI go haywire if you remove your barreled action from the stock and put it back together. For these reasons, I generally do like Karnis does and glass bed them before all else, next step is tune the trigger, then make sure the mag box isn't binding, yad yada yada like someone else already stated. It's the little things that add up to a lot when you look at the big picture...I will say this, I see some major potential in your rifle. I think you got a good one.

As much as you shoot you would quickly discover they are not all that skittish, and those who I've let use mine for a day in the field usually start asking questions of what and where.

Yeah they are just as easy to shoot accurately but then I use a sling 99.9% of the time which helps to no end.

No doubt a sling steadies things down.

Two other things I've found is that even though they are light compared to standard rifles, a couple of hours of carrying them makes them seem heavier than when you first pick one up.

The second is the short burst of adrenalin that occurs when one is about to shoot game steadies the grip. With a practiced subconscious trigger pull I see little disadvantage to a light rifle with the exception of way out there shooting at BG.

Thanks Karnis and battue. These rifles have me so intrigued that I will probably buy one in the near future. Most of my so called "fwt's" weigh in right at 8 pounds (scoped with typical 3-9x40's).

While heavy should obviously be easier to shoot at the bench, a light rifles light shines brightest when used in the field. Horses for courses. Perhaps they are mudders.

I agree that it sounds like the action is binding as accuracy drops when the screws are tight.

You said you ensured the screws were not too long and the mag box isnt binding. With those things out of the way my first move would be to skim bed the action to make sure all is sitting right before anything else.

I'm betting groups improve. If still not where you want try adding some pieces of cut up credit card under the barrel at the forend. I would start with 3-4 pieces to ensure some upward pressure and shoot a group. If things tighten up a little add another piece or two and see what happens.

My 300 WSM shot better then yours averaging consistent 1 1/2" 5 shot groups out of the box. Mine had no mag box binding and the screws were fine. I started with 4 pieces of credit card under mine per Boxers recommendation and it shrank groups markedly so I damned up the forearm with modeling clay and poured an equivalent pressure pad. Mine now shoots pretty much everything under 1" and its favored 150 TTSX into 3/4" at 100 yds more often then not.

At this point the limiting factor is likely me shooting a light rifle but I'm perfectly content with it.

Ain't nothin' like a Savage.



Travis

Three things:

1.) Buy a 12 pack

2. Do these things:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8486078/Montana_tinkering#Post8486078

3.) Stop going to church.



Travis

That shoots like my cousins Kimber in 7-08. hmmmmmmmm

If you are playing with screw tension and throwing groups all over the place, it is a red flag that your gun needs bedded.

I completely agree. All I'm saying though is that I need more time to confirm that is the problem. I know that I was also having difficulty just with my shooting on some of those groups. I'll take it out again and play enough to confirm it's not just me learning how to shoot a light rifle. On those good groups I could definitely tell a difference in my ability to hold it firmly on target without the movement like a feather dancing on water.

You've had 5 good shooters tell you your bedding is off because of how it shoots at different torque settings and you still refuse to listen. Hmmmmmm. Not much help for you dude, rock on and waste components. If it's that finicky about torque, it's gonna be the same way about heat, cold, humidity...and everything else we run into while hunting.

Sounds "interesting". I prefer boring, consistency. Each to his own pastimes and best of luck in your endeavor.

No need to ship it off. Spend some time reading bedding threads and asking advice and do it yourself. Its not black magic. If it doesn't come out good, grind out the bedding and try it again.

I'm thinking about starting a bedding thread (with pictures) in the Winchester forums here in a bit.. The same techniques would also apply to different action types.

I hope you do. I have a Classic 270 WSM I still need to bed.

Clark,

If you're not ready to bed yet... go farmer tight on the front screw and farmer tight or a bit less on the rear. My 7-08 Montucky doesn't matter on the rear, but the front is always tight and done first, always. Lug against stock. I don't like dorking with screw torque on any rifle and don't. Have not bedded mine but eventually will since I've run out of things to tinker with rifle-wise.

Pull the action and look for weird wear spots in the paint. Also, for fun see if the action will stay in the stock when upside down and no screws.

Bedding now wouldn't "hurt" though.

Also, give some thought to lowering the pull even more. I know, I know... buds argue with me over this all the time. They are finally understanding it though... one less variable. You can increase the pull later, after you convince yourself that your new rifle/load/technique are sorted out.

And pay close attention to your rest at the range. Bags, rest, bipod? Are the targets level with the rifle, higher, lower? Sometimes the rest, height of the target, and the way you hold the rifle can make shots fly. I bet your pull is still a bit high during this acid test, and you mentioned the image moving while you are holding on target.

Heavy rifles are easier and light rifles will show problems in technique really quick.

Karnis is right. I've been shooting the Montucky off a rest a bunch lately sans sling. Last week I was shooting off my pack at 480y. Good enough to kill a buck, but I wasn't using my sling. I've gotten lazy with the rifle rest.

Make life easy and get everything level, and natural POA. Light trigger to help keep the rifle movement low. Control the fore-end as needed, and follow through.

Another thing... don't get too wrapped up at 100y either. I've seen quite a few people do better at longer ranges. Seems to take some pressure off the shooter. At 100y, everyone wants the magical 1". At longer distances, the target "appears" steadier too. Adds nothing mechanically, but helps mentally for some.

Jason

And definitely check out SAS' thread that Flave posted.

Jason

These guys have pretty well covered it. The only thing I would add is to set a realistic accuracy expectation for the rifle. It won't be a 1/2 MOA rifle. Chances are it won't consistently shoot sub MOA. But that's ok. Kimber Montanas are for killing stuff, not for posting pictures of pretty little groups on the internet.

Expectations of around 1 MOA three shot group averages with handloads would be a realistic and likely achievable goal.

Wow! You don't even know me but you've already labeled me as hopeless. First off, I didn't ask for "you're" help. Maybe I should have since you are obviously an expert, and gracious to boot.

To everyone else, including those who have suggested bedding, I really do appreciate the comments and helpful suggestions. I do realize that is likely my next step. I just want more than 2 or three bad groups to confirm that it the bedding and not my shooting, especially when I know on a couple of those bad groups I was experiencing less than perfect bench technique.

The main reason I posted all my targets was to let everyone see the good and bad that might come with a new Kimber. It is a bit more difficult to shoot from the bench but the main thing is that I believe the good groups tell me that I have a rifle that a simple bedding and better bench technique could cure of all problems. My main concern was that I would have one that had a bad chamber or barrel. I don't think that's the case and anything else can easily be worked out. Possibly all these things should not be in a $1300 rifle but I still see them as a bargain considering the complete package , even if a little tweeking is necessary.

Prarie Goat nailed it. This aint no 29lb BR set up, it is a hunting rifle.
RH, your Montana shows good potential. Bedding isn't rockety science. Get a kit from Midway and watch a couple of youtube vids and you should be able to do it with no problems.
Good shooting!

Amen, Goat nailed it.

I'm not a benchrest shooter and don't really care what a rifle does at 100y, as long as its in the ball-park (1-1.5"). I'm more interested in how they shoot at my max hunting range. That is the real test.

Here's a 100y target from the 7-08 Montucky using a 6x42, 120gr TTSX @ 3000fps. The target was shot with a hot barrel... after 5 rounds of 120gr NBT. Not a pretty group, but I know it works. I use 2" high for my drop data and it rings 8" steel at 500y with the LRD or M1. If there's no wind, and you don't hit... its the shooter. And I'm not that good of a shooter. A good one could probably get all 5 in one hole at 100y.

Jason, I've seen some of your other target pics and I have to call bs on you're not a good shooter statement. One of these days, you and I are going to have to get together and shoot the bull and tear up some targets

It's gonna be a good one RH. Little due diligence and ...

BADABING!!!!!!

You should know. Douchenozzle. Now GFY.

BSA,

You're just the type of dude I was thinking of when I wrote, "And I'm not that good of a shooter. A good one could probably get all 5 in one hole at 100y." You could wring the accuracy outta that Kimber for me!

I'm working on some targets and stands for some close, medium, and longrange shooting. I'll keep you posted. Also plan to grab some 162gr AMAX bullets for the 7-08 when they come back online, just for fun.

Jason

I'm so confused... Is Travis the douchenozzle, or is he supposed to GFY with the douchnozzle?

Same here.

To be perfectly honest, if all my hunting took place at woods ranges, I would declare the groups in the OP good enough. Buy some of the better shooting ammo. Or whichever was cheapest. Go hunting. Kill deer. Dine on their flesh. Be happy.

I do like good groups. In my youth I was a fairly good target shooter so groups are important to me. In all honesty though, all the deer I've killed over the last 30 years with the exception of one, have been 100 yards or less with more than 50% of those under 50 yards. I hunt hardwoods or small plots in the hardwoods 99% of the time. No large fields on a lease for me. It's either my own property or the local 93K acre National Forrest.

Just for giggles I just now filled an empty 2.9 liter fabric softener bottle with water and put it on the power line cut running across my property. There's a flat right behind my house and I have an access road running across it to another section of my property. It's about 150- 200 yards from the flat behind my house to the flat where the road crosses. Anyway I loaded a round of the ammo that shot this last group.

Went out behind the house and took a couple old cuts of pine from the last time the power line was trimmed, threw the cut piece across a log for a rest, lay down on the ground and busted that jug from about 150 yards first shot from the cold barrel. Only shot once. No great feat I know but it helps build confidence for hunting accuracy.

I never understood people justifying poor performance from a rifle by stating it isn't a bench gun, it is a hunting rifle.

A Kimber isn't cheap. If you want a gun that only shoots ok, then get a Remington 710 and save your money.

Or you could just buy a Savage. I don't think the Montana I own is a poor performer. Yes, I shot a couple crappy groups with it, big deal, I've shot some crappy groups with even more expensive rifles. It might possibly need bedding, big deal. If the 710 or Savage offered the same features I would own one, but alas they don't. They don't even come close. Are they good hunting guns, yes, and if you like them then that's great. You got a good rifle for a good price. Personally, I own several very nice rifles. I owned a Savage but I gave it away. It didn't give me the warm fuzzies. Still I am very pleased with my Montana and will be buying another when I can.

Who was justifying poor performance?

If all you want to do is shoot paper, then build a paper shooting gun. I could give a flying rat's ass what a hunting rifle will do on paper, within reason. If I knew this rifle retained zero, right now I would carry it hunting any game for which it's suited, and not bat an eye.

A hunting rifle needs a certain set of parameters to perform well, intrinsic accuracy is about 4th or 5th on the list.

I would rather shoot a cobbled together Mosin.

Now that's funny! When I took my Montana to our local range there was one old guy there with his wife shooting a Mosin. He asked what rifle I had in the case. I said a mountain rifle. he wanted to see it and I was being nice and handed it to him to look over. He had never even heard of a Kimber but started proclaiming the benefits of the 7mm-08. Then he told me that if I liked the 7-08, I should buy a Savage or if I wanted something really accurate get a Mossin like his. Luckily he was leaving and I didn't encourage him at all.

There's more to it than just how it shoots. If I'm gonna spend a few days sitting on a log waiting for a deer to walk by, I'd rather spend it looking at a Montana than a 710 or a Savage or a RAR, no matter how good they shoot.

Actually, I'd rather be looking at a nice piece of crotch Black Walnut or Claro (unless it's raining).

I'm with you. Life is too short to hunt with an ugly rifle

Your on the way, give it a little time, to figure it out and try some Barnes bullets
They usually shoot good in Montana's .
Happy easyer

Why do you guys keep bringing up Savage? I thought the thread was called the good and bad, not "the good the bad and the ugly"..Just sayin

RH, this is a typical Kimber thread, no worries. By page two the anti's have arrived to lend their "support". You've got good advice already. A skim bedding job and a few minor things to check and tweak if needed and you will be good to go. There is plenty of Kimber knowledge here to help when needed.
Keep us posted.

You guys do know it is possible to have a nice lightweight rifle that also shoots, right?

Why do you assume there has to be a trade off?

Somebody it wasn't?

Ditto that... I've had 16 Kimber MT's.

Main thing when shooting at the bench YOU HAVE TO GRIP THE FOREARM SOLIDLY WITH YOUR LEFT HAND... no benchrest style with the left hand cradling the butt.

What factory rifle do you suggest that is AS LIGHT as his Kimber, and also AS NICE?

I know the Forbes perform well, but they are a couple hundred more dollars, in chrome moly, and from what I can see the fit and finish is a bit rough.

Really?

Never had a problem shooting as you say not to do.

I'm now waiting for someone to chime in saying it has to be held exactly "so" or it won't shoot to the same place.

To check the bedding, tighten both screws. Rest the butt of the rifle on the floor or a bench while lightly holding the forearm and barrel. Loosen one action screw while looking for movement at the barrel/forearm. See or feel any movement? Retighten the screw you just loosened and losen the other screw. Any movement? If so you likely need a bedding job (like others I'm betting you do). If you have a dial indicator you can use it to see how much movement there is. More than about .002 movement you more than likely need a bedding job.

Quick and easy check that doesn't waste ammo or cost anything.

Dave.

Thanks Dave I appreciate that and I'll give it a try if it gives any more problems with groups. I did remove the mag box and try to see if I could detect any unevenness or movement with the action screws out just pressing on the front and rear alternatively. I couldn't detect anything like that. My mag box wasn't binding either.

Damn, I knew I was doing it all wrong

Mr. Clark, first thing I noticed with my 308 Montana was that one could squeeze the tip of the fore arm and it would touch the barrel. This is when I started resting it as far back as possible. Second thing I have learned is that even a brand new out of the box rifle scope can be screwed up. I know for a fact that a brand new scope can turn an honest 11/4 inch rifle into a consistent 5 inch gun no problemo. One needs a few scopes laying around for just this reason as it always takes the factory a few weeks to fix the problem you paid good money for.

BSA, I'm only talking about the little Kimber MT... I wasn't aware you had any?

You're obviously a far better shooter with 84M MT's than me

I find more consistency, group to group, with a firm forearm grip on the MT.

Some of you missed my point. I think the Kimbers are probably decent guns. And I think the OP's gun will shoot once he beds it. I was replying to the comments that basically you cannot expect accuracy out of a Kimber because they are only meant for hunting. That is BS, especially out of a $1200 gun.

If you only expect minute of milk jug, then spend $300 and be happy.

I was talking hand placement. I shoot lefty

I do agree with you and I do expect better than milk jug accuracy. These give me a lot of hope.



However, I think what everyone is saying including me, is that accuracy wasn't the number one attribute looked for when considering the Kimber Montana. If accuracy had been the most important thing, I would have chosen something completely different.

Is your last name Clairborne? You seem to be real good at offering excuses, but not so good at taking advise. Those groups, even your so-called "good group", scream bedding issues, but keep on wasting time and ammo.

Thank you great one. I must bow to your superiority. You are exceedingly wise and gracious.

With each insipid response you continue to climb down the evolutionary ladder.

Please carry on!

With each insipid response you continue to climb down the evolutionary ladder.

Please carry on! [/quote]

Yes, sir it was a condescending post but only in response to a condescending comment. I have been nothing but cordial to those on this forum who have offered helpful advice, including those who have suggested the rifle would benefit from bedding. Several times I have stated that that is likely the next step and thanked the individual for the advice.

In retrospect I apologize to GW. I was being a smart ass because I felt I was being personally attacked. Not one of my better moments. I should have shown a lot more restraint. Please forgive my condescending attitude for what was likely meant as a helpful remark.

I could GAF less, and guys who say, "Accuracy wasn't the most important thing", don't usually post pictures of groups on the 'net.

And don't think I'm bashing your Montana, I have three in the safe, just that I know they sometimes benefit from a few tweaks and tricks of the trade, which is what several guys have bluntly pointed out here. I also don't buy into the excuse that light rifles take 57 trick moves to hold them properly in order to shoot halfway decent from the bench.

I personally think the bigger issue is, Montana's are so damn light, and IMO, aren't exactly a joy to shoot from the bench or prone position (7mm-08's on up) that guys tend to death grip them. My .308 is my favorite hunting rifle, but I can't say I look forward to sitting down and shooting it just to shoot it. Now the .223, that's a different story.

RH, I know you are one of the good guys. As are many guys posting on this subject. A lot of good minds here and I know most of us care about accuracy, contrary to what a few have said. I thought Brad would get what I was talking about with my comment, but forget, many here don't realize I'm a left handed shooter because I only have right handed rifles . I see tons of potential in your rifle buddy and know you will (in time) fine tune it to get every last speck of accuracy out of it. Most here are shooters and rifle loonies, if we weren't we'd be out fishing or playing golf instead of being here commenting on threads like this...

BSA, never knew you were a lefty!

I appreciate the kind words. Yes, I'll do what needs doing to get accuracy. I haven't disagreed with any advice given, so I really don't understand the reason for hostility. Regardless, I should have tougher skin and not childishly return snide remarks.

I posted all my groups so that anyone considering a Montana could see the whole picture with my particular gun. You do have to take into consideration that some of those groups could be a reflection of my shooting as much as the rifle. I'm learning a bit about better bench technique while at the same time trying to sort out any issues the gun may have. I know me well enough to know that I'm not a perfect shooting machine. Maybe someone with sharper skills could come to a definite decision sooner, but I saw no harm is shooting a couple more groups over the next couple weeks to make sure most of the problems aren't just me. I don't know why that offends anyone to the point that they need insult me. I didn't post to brag or whine and I'm starting to wish I hadn't bothered in the first place.

You mean bass ackwards . I did have to shoot righty on the second to furthest shot (600 yards with my 300 wsm) I've taken on a big game animal though because at the time my left eye was phuuuuckkked up!!! Yes, I'm one of those guys that believes a hunting rifle better be damn accurate

That is quite a revelation! BSA should realize that harboring all those pre '64's will give him coordination problems and even a personality disorder. He should dispose of those pieces quickly in order to prevent any long term maladies.

I appreciate your posts regarding the Montana. I also follow what you are saying. Here's how I see it.

1. Follow SAS's advice on the thread he started regarding the montana.
2. Glass bed the rifle.
3. Remember your rifle is new, so it will continue to shoot better as the barrel breaks in.
4. Over time, you'll hone your skills in shooting a light weight rifle. This may take a little experimenting. Soft towel under the forearm where the front rest is, hold it like Brad suggested, hold it like you normally do, just a little experimenting goes a long way.
5. Fine tuned handloads go a looooooooong way as well. Hint

RH, don't beat yourself up. These new Kimber range report threads usually head to the shidder by page two anyway. Its the way of the world here. Your were being up front and objective - others used it as an opportunity to further an agenda.
I look forward to the next range report after you've worked some magic.

I agree. I also thought it was BS when the same thing happened to you in your Montana thread.

Is there a reason in general? I dont own one, but they seem to be pretty nice rifles.

Paulh
I really don't know. A lot of guys here really like them. You can also read a lot of reports about bad accuracy. From what I can tell, some of that can be attributed to some bad barrels a few years ago and some small issues like a mag box binding or improper bedding or crown. I posted all my groups because I wanted anyone to see the whole truth. You do have to take into consideration that being so light they are a bit harder to shoot until you get the hang of it, and I'm only using factory ammo.

Some people just dismiss them saying such an expensive rifle should be perfect from the start. I say you can find issues with any gun at any price point. The Montana is IMHO a very nice light weight package. I don't know of anything it's equal in all stainless at that weight. If a tiny bit of tweeking is necessary, then I accept that as part of the experience.

My main concern was the possibility of getting a bad barrel or sloppy chamber. So far I think it has shot well enough on some groups that that isn't the case. Worse case scenario, I will need to bed it. Best case, better ammo and learn to shoot a little better. All in all I'm happy with my rifle and will start saving for one in 223.

I did some "experiments" a couple months ago with my 7-08 Montucky regarding fore-end control. When I was working on my loads I realized it needed fore-end control but didn't know what "impact it" had ... so I shot one target with different holds one day when I was bored.

Although the felt recoil is very low, there is considerable muzzle jump compared to my other hunting rifles. If I don't control the Montana, it'll shoot willy-nilly all over, for me. Sometimes worse than others. With a tighter hold I get more consistent results from field positions.

Could be me and my technique, but I had four 300 Magnums that needed very little fore-end control in comparison. My main hunting rifle for awhile was a T3 SuperLight Tikkler shooting the 200gr NAB at 2900fps... roughly 7lb rifle all-up ready to hunt. I shot that rifle with my support hand on top of the scope. Recoil was significantly higher than the 7-08 Montana but it didn't require much control and it shot lights-out consistently.

This is an ugly target from the 7-08 but was the result of my test using the 120gr NBT at 3100fps. Shot prone, using a cheap Caldwell rifle rest, no sling. The first 4 shots were done loose, the next 4 shot with a firm grip on the fore-end, then the last 2 were shot like I'd fire my Tikklers (free recoil, little if any hold).

At that time the trigger was set at ~2.25lb. I think shots #9 & #10 are more a product of the light rifle getting pulled off target than anything and me being mentally done with trying to prove a point to myself

After shooting 10 rounds with the 120gr NBT (cheap practice load), I switched to the 120gr TTSX at 3000fps (hunting load). Fired two loose, then the last 3 with control on the fore-end. Just confirmed what I already knew.

For what it's worth, I never believed the claims that "light" rifles were harder to shoot when I owned the T3 Tikklers. They were easy to shoot, but nearly 1-pound heavier. After owning this Montana, I found that it requires a different technique for me to shoot well, but is a lot more enjoyable to carry

Next time out I'll try to take pics of groups using a sling.

4th,
Good post with pics. I think that with these lightweights, < 7 #'s, whatever is a "real world" shooting scenario is what you should practice. Whether its leaning against a tree or post, off the top of your pack - sitting and prone, etc..
The next heavier contour on the Montana would alleviate a lot of this. Let's say a .625" from a Tikka for example.
We look forward to your next range sessions.

Apparently 1.5 moa = minute of milk jug. Learn something new everyday.

BW,

I've gotten lazy the past few months and have been using a rest or sandbags more than I should from prone. Its been awhile, but last week I was shooting off my pack... in the huckberries, and through the brush at 480y. A regular bipod and squeeze bag wouldn't work here, unless I had a weedwacker

Its times like this, when I'm contorted on top of my Kifaru pack, with the spotting-scope/tripod in the pack jabbing me in the belly, binos poking me in the ribs, and rifle in a not-so-perfect position that a light recoiling rifle is a blessing. There were times I'd literally have to skip a week of shooting with my Magnums while shooting like this to allow the bruises to heal!

I just get a kick outta shooting like this though. A couple weeks ago I took my buds to a landing where I shoot 500y & 800y. They just worked up their rifle loads and were having decent luck on the 500y gong. After they were done I put the Kimber on their sandbags and hit the 8" 500y gong 3-for-3. They thought that was pretty cool, but off of sandbags its like cheating

Jason

I've had a few Montana's.I don't recall that any were terrible accuracy wise,if they liked the ammo. One 7mm WSM sucked if you fed it Federal Premium.With handloads loaded to normal velocity(not the hyper souped up over pressure factory stuff), it shot fine.

One 257 Roberts was stupid accurate.A match shooter at the range thought it was nifty,but asked how it shot.I told him it will put three shots into 1/2-5/8" at 100 yards.

He smiled and said "Show me". So I sat down and put 3 into 5/8" He still talks about that.Nice when you get "called" and a plan falls together.

IME nothing fancy is required; I don't hold the fore end down. My left hand is back under the butt stock controlling the rear bag....but I do put a soft towel under the receiver,and don't rest the rifle way out on the fore end. The front bag is back under the chamber.Light rifles will "bounce" off firm rests,and groups will go to hell.Controlling the bounce is key.

Very firm sand bags are a hostile environment for a light rifle.

I do tend to draw a light rifle like a Montana back a bit harder with my right hand.

Now Bob, that sounds like the way I'd try holding/shooting the Montana. However, Of course, I'd be drawing it back with the left hand instead of the right. Front rest placement only makes sense to me as well as the soft towel. It also cracks me up when I see guys at the range putting the front rest right under the tip of the fore arm or at the sling swivel stud.

bsa: Ever see the guys who put the barrel on the front bag?

Or in the "V" of a wooden block?

I was never curious enough to stick around and see how that worked.

Yes, sir it was a condescending post but only in response to a condescending comment. I have been nothing but cordial to those on this forum who have offered helpful advice, including those who have suggested the rifle would benefit from bedding. Several times I have stated that that is likely the next step and thanked the individual for the advice. [/quote]

I'm sure you are a good man...my point was why continue down a dead end road? When 4 or 5 men, tell you to bed the rifle first (These men, know rifles), continuing with the tweaks and turns are pointless. After bedding, then the tweaking will show the affects on the rifle, more betta!

I have two Montana's both bedded, both shoot MOA or better with just about everything I shoot through them.

I also, have a Classic in 7WSM that went through two members here, both said was a 1.5-2" rifle. I bought it, and Karnis helped with the bedding, my first load went 5/8"...and is repeatable over and over again!

I figured out holding the forearm firmly on one of my first MT's... works for me. A sub 6lb rifle at the bench is different than a 7lb or 8lb rifle, at least it is for me as a mortal.

The FOUR big things for the MT after owning a small pile:

1). Tune the trigger... lighter is better. Go 2.5 lbs (hint), and certainly no more than 3 lbs.

2). Shoot it in a good rest (I like Protektor sand filled leather bags) and hold the forearm firmly. I've personally never found any merit in the towel under the forearm idea.

3). At the least, bed the forward receiver, lug (I tight bed the lug), and under the chamber, to end of barrel shank. I prefer to bed the entire action to the end of the barrel shank. Some MT's respond very well to bedding, with others I've not found it mattered. I've bedded everyone of the 15 or 16 I've had.

4). Experiment with a variety of bullets and powders. Don't get fixated on one bullet weight or style/make. Stay flexible. Of the Montana's I've owned only a couple shot most everything well. Most shot some bullets well, and a few were very picky and would only group a couple well. I never had a MT I couldn't find one bullet that would go moa.

I did not see any reference to the barrel, are Kimber's floated from the factory?

I have shot a number of 700's with the factory speed bumps removed, the barrel confirmed to be floating and the action cranked down tight in the tupperware stock, most shot very good.

Yes they are, or they're supposed to be. Some aren't centered very well though.

I was actually picturing that as I typed my last post, but didn't want to say it. Makes me cringe!!! Some of these guys are old enough to know better too.

It sounds like you're not using a rear bag and having a little trouble taking yourself out as one of the variables. May have been mentioned, but a rear bag will help a lot in isolating the rifle.

Thegman. A rear bag is a "no brainer". Lets hope he's using one

Funny, these Savage haters. I've owned a bunch of rifles and still own quite a few. I've had to do excessive work on a bunch of very expensive rifles in order to get them to shoot MOA, and I've had a few shoot MOA or less out of the box on our first date. One thing I have learned, is that you can do worse than a Savage fairly easily, spending over twice as much moolah. Ugly? Well, yes, to some and even to me. But the couple I own shoot very well with nothing more than a load work up. I have a 308 bedded in the crappy factory plastic that will shoot .5 with multiple loads and bullet weights. Excellent truck and barn guns IMO.

Op,

Bed your Montana as many with knowledge have said. In 24 hrs, it will shoot consistently with all loads, and once you find a load It likes, MOA when you do your part...with the forearm in the rest and your off hand under the butt.

I use a pillow from bed bath and beyond and the hood of my truck like real men are supposed to do!

Ha ha, you are a crack up buddy. TFF... I'm thinking about going to the range. Things are getting pretty deep here...

Let us hope he is using the proper barrel donuts!

Har. Where's the pic of my Montana?

Here you go...

NOW --I've seen it all .........

I always wondered if those barrel donuts really work..

Back to the topic at hand... one thing I forgot to mention and that I've seen consistently with MT's, they definitely "settle down" with upwards of 100 rounds through the barrel. Undoubtedly, a guy can speed up the process with a "barrel break-in" but that sort of fussyism doesn't interest me. I just run rounds and clean every so often. Once I get north of 2-300 rounds I rarely clean inside 50+ rounds... or at least I let the barrel tell me what to do.

Just a thunk...

Don't worry Brad, I already mentioned barrel break in. The way I break them in is SHOOT them!!!!

I've only owned two Kimber Montanas. One 300wsm and one in 308. Both were a cinch to shoot off a bench with rest. The lil .308 I had was the most accurate(bench) rifle I'd ever owned. Notice I said "were" and "was" and "I'd".

I now have a Sako A7 that truimps the lil .308 off the bench.

The Montana's I owned were much much more difficult to shoot offhand than from a bench with rest. And the A7 never disappoints.

I do totally plan on owning a .308 Montana again. But for now I'm way good..

Thank god none of those were Maple Bars. That would of been a total waste of a good donut..

I'm wondering if the donuts help keep the barrel cool?

No they don't although I thought the same thing when I bought them. Oh and forget about �clairs. No bueno.

I always, get the munchies when shooting...so they helped a lot there!