Didn't get to shoot last weekend and our spring bear trip is coming up quick (this weekend) so I headed out to make sure all is well with the Montucky.

In another thread I mentioned that I'd post some results shooting the 84M off my pack at medium range. For me, shooting the Kimber takes a little "technique" to control the muzzle jump. Not much recoil, but it can hop. Anyway, been doing a lot of prone shooting in the hills off of rests and bags. Haven't been shooting off my pack lately so I went out for a little practice.

Range was 480y, slight downhill, windy, drizzle, etc. Target is an 8.5" cast steel hub coupler.

In that other thread I mentioned I'd try shooting with the sling and fore-end control, and without. In hindsight I wish I would have put a paper target up.

With sling, I hit steel 2 out of 3 times. Saw the 2 hits, and saw 1 miss low and to the left, through the scope. Can see the dirt splash on the target. Have gotten a little rusty with my field shooting...

Then shot three with no sling and no forearm control. Didn't hit steel at all. Due to the muzzle jump, I didn't see where the impacts were (lost sight picture).

When I went to inspect the target I noticed some holes in my new hanger! One was close to the target, the other way high. Not sure about the third.

Then the sun peeked out when I was out of ammo

Lesson learned? I've gotten lazy using rests and bags. Don't use bipods but I do have my spotter tripod and shooting sticks on/in my pack.

I shoot better off of a backpack than off pretty much anything else. There's something to be said for both being prone and using a soft rest that won't bounce. I try to do all of my shooting off a pack now.

The Kimber looks Minute of Bruin at any rate. Cool rifle.

Tanner

Looks like you need to practice your sitting as well. Another couple weeks of growth on the ground cover and prone won't be an option from that shooting position!

The 7000ci Kifaru with my normal day-hunting gear is like a freaking body rest/pillow. When I was trying to decide what size pack to order I never thought about it as a shooting aid. Seems that I can get on-target a lot faster compared to other rests or my smaller packs.

Shooting bags and rests are in storage until its time to work up a new load

Jason

You ain't kidding PG. It'll start growing fast.

Last few weeks I've been looking for new shooting areas in the coastrange. Actually pretty dang hard to find a decent spot where you can shoot from prone. East of the Cascades its dry though.

I've shot the Kimber with my elbows on my knees and with the sticks. Going to test out the tripod too.

My hat's off to the loggers though. They leave stumps at just the right height for shooting

Jason

Good luck on the bears. Still another 10 days before I'll be able to get out.

That is one heck of a pack. From what you're saying that apparently works in your favor though. Nice lookin country too. Always liked the PNW.

Shooting off the pack is a valuable part of getting ready and you were correct in getting out there. I've shot quite a few elk off my Eberlestock and soon look forward to the Kuiu 6000. I have never able to get "prone" due to hillside/game angle or deep snow. I've used either a modified kneeling technique and a seated position.
Good luck on your bear hunt.

I shoot well off a pack but I've found nothing is as steady as a bipod. For me anyway.



Travis

Great pictorial - thanks for sharing. Practicing like the actual hunt scenario is always best.

Best of luck on the bruins.

Do you think the sling tension, or lack there of, caused a different POA/POI intersection.... or do you think you simply shot better with the sling?

I'm not very good with a sling, and I know I cause POI issues when using one. When shooting off the pack I prefer left hand on top of the scope to manage recoil and see impact.... but this makes me wonder about giving the sling another shot.

Great question. Was gonna ask the same thing. Sometimes it is hard to tell if the sling is effecting barrel vibration,causing a shift in POI, or if the downward sling tension naturally causes the shooter to pull shots lower.

With a floated barrel,the sling should not cause POI shift.Or at least I have always set up synthetic stocked rifle with floated barrel just for that reason.

But I think a really light rifle can be a bit more sensitive to variations in hold(with/without a tight sling,for example).


Might add I think Jason is doing well with the light rifle at almost 500 yards.

Yes that is a point to consider. In addition to what Bob said, I looked at my shooting position with a sling and I see a down and leftward pull when I'm in the sling. If I am on a pack, which is usually in the upright position, to get over brush and snow, I don't use the sling.

The only solution would be to keep a long running comparison between the use of a sling on a pack vs. just using the pack. Even then it might be hard to compare.

Me too -

I can shoot well off of a pack prone but prefer a bipod that swivels which allows me to prone out or shoot from sitting at ease.

What scope is that?

Just out of curiosity, what do the groups look like at 100 and 200 off the pack?

Looks like a fixed 6x with the M1 added.....

Yep. 6x42.

I'm really getting to like those.

IME, Shooting with a tight sling will drop POI anywhere from 1" to 3+" at 100 yds. with free floated bbl rifles. (Stock rigidity plays a part in this. So does the amount of tension you use.)

Not surprised that your unslung shots went high. So do mine when I've dialed in using in using a sling.

True shooting slings are good tools in the field.

Quicker, require less movement and can be used in any shooting position. Plus, they add no weight or ruin your rifles balance.

You gotta have one anyway, why not use one that does more than just carry your rifle.

Looking forward to Spring Bear season!

Flave, Greg - I've played with bipods, but never while hunting big game. You guys leave them in your packs, or attached to your rifles while hunting?

Moose - the pack is a monster. A hair smaller would have been perfect but it cinches down well and I don't worry about bringing bulky clothing or gear... it helps fill it out. It works well. My plan was to add the smaller HighCamp pack if the bigger didn't work well for dayhunts. So far, so good (hunted deer and elk last year with it). I just noticed that Patrick Smith has an article on using packs as a shooting aid. I've always gone to the pack for prone shooting, but never thought of it as the shooting tool that it really is. Makes me re-think my pack needs to include shooting, not just carrying stuff...

Dogshooter, Bob, bigwhoop, JohnM - I know Brad and some others have mentioned that the 84M needs some fore-end control. This rifle definitely needs it too, at least with me shooting it. Not much recoil but it jumps. In contrast, I had a couple T3 rifles in 300 Win, and one in 300 WSM that I could basically let free recoil with no fore-end control. They were easy to shoot, except the recoil after a handful of rounds from prone

I've had the 7-08 Montucky since last summer and have shot it a bunch. Prone with rests, bags, and pack. I experimented with the sling a little bit but most of my shooting has been with a firm grip. If I do my part, I can hit that 8" target on a regular basis. 3-for-3 is always my goal and what I expect. I've done it numerous times, but not every time.

Maybe I need to start shooting at a manhole cover?! Some of the benchrest dudes say an 8" steel is too big. Others say a little bit bigger target would be better at 500y. I know some dudes can shoot tiny groups on those big targets, but to me its much more important to hit that 8" steel every time. I don't care where too much, as long as I hit it Small groups on that 8" target would be even better though!

A bud just gave us a handful of 12"x12" armor plate. Its the same stuff used to armor .mil vehicles. I'm thankful to have it, but 12" targets seem too dang big for 500y! Hate to cut any down though so I'll probably make a stencil for an 8" center.

David - Leupo 6x42 with LRD reticle, M1 elevation. Shooting was done using the LRD which is the picket for 500y.

Jason

SAS,

I've shot off a cheap rest and off my pack with the same results, but I gotta use that firm grip. Or the sling. I posted some ugly pics of "tight hold" vs "loose grip" in another thread. Those pics were from Dec 2013.

Link to Pics in Thread

Just found some targets I forgot about. Same deal below, "tight hold" vs "loose grip". The 120gr NBT is ~1" high, the 120gr TTSX is ~2". I shoot both to 500y with the same scope zero. The NBT is 100fps faster. The TTSX is my hunting bullet.

I really haven't noticed any pattern with the loose grip. They can go anywhere, I think depending on the type of rest, the angle of the rifle to the target (POA), etc.

If I control the fore-end, either with a firm grip or with the sling, I do much better.

Jason

I guess it depends on where you hunt, but in 30 years of big game hunting in Colorado, I have only been in one shot situation where I could actually lay down. Too much ground cover. Hell, even in WY where I have hunted the sage was too tall.

Yeah, but you have to watch for the rattle snakes there (east of the cascades). It's still one of my favorite places to shoot off my pack. Last year's buck at a LRF 648 yards (downhill) with angle comp on. My rifle (Win model 70 7mm rem mag) is a smidge heavier than your Montana though. Probably a little more forgiving as well:





1 hole group at 648 yards last year. Since there's a few here that think you can't shoot in field positions when you are always posting target pics at 100 yards . What they don't know won't hurt them I guess:


My spot is pretty cool because of the natural rock bench I shoot off of. Cool thread Jason and good luck with your bear hunt..

Why do you feel the need to come onto everybody else's threads and brag about your "accomplishments"? There's nothing wrong with simply being happy for the OP, without adding your own BS.

P.S. Making a 648 yard shot on a big game animal is not something to brag about. It just demonstrates that you are a poor hunter.

I hear ya.

I'm going to make a simple rifle rest for my spotter tripod to use in those situations where I have time to set it up. Will be able to shoot seated or kneeling. Lost of places where the sage, ferns, grass, etc. are too tall as you stated. Still carry the sticks for quick set-up too.

Jason

Jason knows I am happy for him. I wished him luck on his bear hunt too. SORRY you are pissed I know how to shoot off a pack too. Why don't you go and wash the sand out of your mangina and quit your pissing and moaning ..

I have a Stoney Point walking stick with a V on the top. You can collapse it down for seated shots. Works pretty well, and is solid enough.

Seriously douchebag, there are dozens of threads out there where you felt the need to post groups and generally schit on the OP's performance. But of course if you lead off with a back handed compliment it's ok....

You are are a cry baby. Plain and simple. Don't like my target pics or other pics, don't look. Sorry for hurting your feelers . As for the OP, he knows how I feel about him and knows I'm not chitting on his thread. You might want to look in the mirror for that one

Jason,

Depends on where or what I'm doing but if I have a heavy hike in, I'll just put the bipod in my pack loose or tie to outside. If it's light outside I'll have it attached to my rifle.

Once I get to where I will glass for extended periods I will attach to the rifle and set up next to where I am glassing.

On a stalk it is already attached so it saves me time. A swiveling bipod has helped me out countless times in the field and I'll have a hard time not being in the field without one even with the added weight. It aids immensely where there is ground cover and proning out is not possible but sitting is. I use my pack as my elbow rest in these situations.

Yes, you are.

You do it on any thread where somebody posts up a group from a Winchester. You do it on a whole bunch of the reloading threads. You feel some need to brag about your stuff repeatedly and without any thought that maybe, just maybe, nobody gives a flying rat schit.

Pretty funny schit.

For starters,BSA is an utterly clueless [bleep] and if she shot twice as often,with twice as many rifles...she'd "know" about half as "much" as Jeff-O or Savage99. The only things she shoots,are her mouth and Imagination and she's a [bleep] Turd Polisher of repute.

A bipod is the last thing I want on a LW Killing Rifle and MPAJ Ruck has no equal for rugged reliability and outright Utility. Master that and you are simply there. Bipods will do weird schit to LW Rifles and that is a given. Prone MPAJ Ruck is The Rock Of Gibraltar,but not always an option,due to both topography and/or vegetation. Though I cain't know anybody,who has more bipods than I. Hint.(grin)

Now on an XP-100(both front and rear gripped) a bipod is what I'd consider a mandate. I very much like 'em on a FF'd AR too...but not on a LW boltgun. Add fill weight and start talking McMillan handles and I'll drive 'em,but none of them rifles are LW's.

LW's are all about MPAJ Ruck and not kissing swivel studs under recoil. Had a coupla Montuckies out past the 1000yd line yesterday,in winds wellllllll beyond sporty and it is well beyond satisfyin',that which can be reliably did CBS. A .625BC scooted to 3100fps+ and steered with a 6x Fixed [bleep],is some dastardly SINISTER Mojo.

Hopefully BSA will feel compelled to open her yap and give things a try and mebbe muse some "particulars". Laffin'! With luck,one just might get a chart outta the deal. Re-laffin'!

My fingers is crossed.

Off to make Blue Thunder famouser,as it done [bleep] poured rain last night,which is the greatest gift of all.

MPAJ Ruck?

I never used to, but I have found myself leaving one on the rifle I'm hunting with more and more these days.


Travis

What's the advantage of the M1 over the regular target turrets?

They can get knocked off of your zero much more easily.

which can?

The nice thing about the M1's is there is no cover to lose. I also find them easier to grab with cold fingers. Havn't had a problem with them loosing zero.

There's a guy who developed a Zero stop for them, as well.

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/234751-leupold-mark-4-m1-zero-stop.html

No arguing the advantage of a Bi-pod, but it's hopeless down here unless you're sniping yotes or hogs across farm fields, even then it's tough because there aren't many places I hunt where you can go prone and not have visibility drop to zero.

Have a friend with a 300wm Montana he purchased for elk. He is a die-hard bipod user but wanted to try his out shooting off his hunting pack. We went out and had a difficult time, he tried both free recoil and grasping forend. I stood behind him and noticed his position had a fair amount of offset, kinda like shooting around a barricade. He didn't appear to have enough of his body behind the straight line of the rifle and his position was breaking down to his right side. In addition, he was shooting off the outside of his pack, not suspension side. Instead of the recoil consistently coming straight back and recovering like a piston, it would drive back in an inconsistent arc to his strong side and then he'd need to rebuild his position after the shot.

Don't know if any of this applies to your situation, but I had him establish his position more inline with the rifle maximizing his mass directly behind the rifle. He continued to shoot free recoil, but I had him flip the pack and use the stiffer suspension side of the pack as a more stable platform. This corrected his issue, the recoil was managed in a straight line, his recovery was good, and it resulted in consistent groups. In addition, his zeros were previously established off a seated bench. His POI was different shooting off the pack, but the difference was consistent. He merely made sight corrections and noted the new zeros/comeups.

Maybe this experience with my friend will give you some ideas.

later

= Monkey Pffuckin' A Jug

Just read some good posts by Boxer on shooting from the pack. Posts were from several years ago. No benches, pods, or formal rests.

Couple weeks ago I was curled up in a semi-fetal position shooting off the pack. That's what the terrain gave me, but it was stable as heck, and comfy. A lot of suffering in the hills compared to concrete benches at the club (most guys I know that have a membership to a formal range never shoot in the field, except when they are aiming at an animal ).

Jason

Gary,

Interesting info about your buddy. I've tried the suspension side of the pack but haven't noticed any difference out the 500y. The other side is more comfy, and creates a nice cradle for the rifle. If I get set-up properly I can spot my shots through the scope at that distance... rifle comes straight back.

I normally shoot with my body straight if possible, but that's what I like about shooting from real field positions. Its often times not possible, and the challenge is the fun part.

Jason

For certain areas I just leave the bipod on the rifle all season. They are so nice at times.

Unhandy on a dedicated truck gun though(IMHO).


Random shooting from a multitude of positions is of course the best idea for practice.



Bipods are very useful if you drop your pack before going Indian on an open country stalk.

Or if you don't have time to drop your pack before you shoot.




4th point, it is kinda painful hooking one onto an 84 Montana though...grin



I've also had better consistency holding the forearm with a good grip.

We used to call this stuff "grabbing a rest"...and it could be anything.

I killed one 6x6 at close to 500 yards, and a buck mule deer at 340 with a set of bins jammed into the ground and my left hand on top.Gave just enough elevation.My last bull elk at about 200 yards was from the sit with the rifle on top of a pack frame.

Other stuff has been rolled up jackets, packs,a jacket tossed across sage....logs, rocks...whatever is handy and fast,including a shooting sling like the Latigo. Key is spotting what's available and getting quickly into position.Years of doing the same on woodchucks makes shots at BG animals much easier.

Agree with Boxer on leaving the Harris bipods behind when I am on the move. In uneven terrain they are never the right height(it seems)for anything;they snag on brush, throw the balance of the rifle off and are generally a pain. I can see them for varmints or sitting on a spot but a pack works as well from prone, and a tight sling from the sit is about as steady and more flexible;easier to stay with a moving animal, too.

Easy enough to practice this stuff at the range,too. We have benches at 100,200,and 600 but also grass berms to flop prone at 300 to 600 yards. Stay off the benches after sight in and use the packs and other stuff to simulate field rests.

This is an excellent discussion... thanks to all for solid contributions.


I live and hunt in a place where a soda can would give you enough elevation to use as a rest.... so most of the time my rifles wear bipods. But for BG hunting, I prefer the pack. I've also used the Eberlestock as a front rest from sitting, and as an excellent rear rest when joined with sticks or other natural rest. Packs are quite handy for lottsa stuff...

When using the pack as a rest, sans sling, what do you typically do with your off hand? This question pertains to all but 'flave... I don't wanna know what you're doing with your off hand.... ever....

My preference is left hand atop the scope between the turret and objective (I also prefer to shoot this way with the bipod/rear bag set-up). I've found this best allows me to control the rifle under recoil, and watch the show.

This is not a comment about you, because I "know" you from this board. But at my range, when I've seen the hand atop the scope position in use, good shooting rarely followed.

Funny schit...SquatToPee is TRYING to talk rifles again. Hopefully,she and BSA' will form yet another Axis Of Imagination and dabble some "particulars" with their vaunted alliance,besides all of the rifles they were too [bleep] stupid to cypher. Laffin'!

M1's have no equal,end of story.

Anywhoo,it were in fact a Blue Thunder day and it got schlepped through the puckerbrush for 10hrs straight. Like always,I was hotter than [bleep] via MPAJ Ruck,though I gave a pard an exhibition on how to drive a rifle from the Hind Legs. It ain't even fair.(grin)

Curiously enough,it wears a 1" Leupie 3.5-10x 40mm A/O with Sillywet elevation and rest assured,I've beat the [bleep] outta it(the greatest of understatements). If M1's were available from inception,it'd be all that I had.

It may have a scritch or a scratch and one day it even rained upon it. Laffin'! Only close-up of the turret,from today...but you get the drift.



Key on a LW,is keeping the front rest in proximity to the receiver and away from swivel stud. The ass needs to keep from kissing it's stud too...as it's ALL about the release. My weakside mitt,just goes wherever it goes,as granted by opportunity. That in regards to what the MPAJ arrangement allows,in relation to a hand hold. I'm happiest,when orienting the forearm in my portside paw's "L"-shaped crook...which is billiards-esque,with palm towards muzzle. The money maker is nestling the butt and I've oft proved that point,by shooting without my weakside mitt even touching the rifle.

A great trigger,good bedding and a kiss...seal the deal. POA/POI intersection is then easily arranged and reliably. Hell...happiness is a HOT LW barrel,connectin' LR dots,if only to make Window Lickers cringe. Laffin'!

Shootin' is easy,for them who actually do it and it's never been tough to tell,who do and who don't.

Better dry duds,tie some more riggin',grab a bite,go glass for Bears and then rinse/repeat.

It's rough.(grin)

Guilty....

It's like Jim Furyk's golf swing....

Yep, 99.9% of the time Jim Furyk's swing won't work for anyone but Jim.

I've had really good luck with this position, as well...

The lightest rifle I have is a tad under 6 lbs.

I shoot it just like my other rifles.

Which means - the less I'm screwing with it, the better. I don't drape my arms or other extremities over it.

I simply balance the rifle on whatever I'm shooting off of and don't use any more grip than is necessary to stick the cross hair or dot where I want.

Dogshooter for me with a bipod and rear bag my left hand would be back on the rear bag,lending some more support back there or squeezing it to move the rifle a tiny bit for vertical;much the same as on a bench.

Over a pack my left hand is under the rifle,and I'd say I comfortably do this routinely to 300-400 yards.For me this is standard "next step" once I have a rifle zeroed.Theory being I am likely to have anything for a rest from the pack to a rock or log and want some cushion under the fore end rather than resting the fore end on something hard, which we know is a no-no.

But I am flexible and whatever it takes to steady things down enough to make a shot given time constraints. I am not proud how I get it done.You never know what you are going to get dished out for a field rest,so the left hand goes where it needs to.

Last NH buck, I had just settled in on a rock pile and was enjoying things when a buck broke cover on a lope after a hot doe,at what turned out to be about 300 yards. I was surrounded by low lying juniper bushes,and tried to flop prone but immediately sunk past my eyeballs,and had to scramble to the sit and take a half wrap in the Latigo...he was half way across by now,and hesitated.I hit him in the ribs and he took off in a mad dash but stopped at the edge of the woods, head down, obviously hit.I moved a bit to clear another bush,and shot again,hitting about 6" from the first shot and he went down hit twice through the chest.

The Latigo saved the day, giving just enough steadiness to make the shot with not much time.A bipod would have been worthless to me then;just too much ground cover and no where to get down.The sit was the only option,and the sling has saved me more than a few times.

This is not easy maneuvering when you are north of 60 and I'm glad I did not have to watch myself pull this off.

But you do the best you can with what you got at the time.

Heres a lint to an excellent article on the subject...

Nathan Foster: Hold that Forend

Dog shooter that was a good article!

I agree. Really good article.

A few months back a buddy was having trouble with his 7RM Tikkler. Had him read that article, and mentioned my experience with the Kimber. He was getting a quite a bit of muzzle jump, more than I recall with my T3 rifles.

We then went out and worked on loads for his rifle last month ('04 date written is wrong, it was actually this year 2014). The 2nd pic is the backside of the target. IIRC there were 9 or 10 shots that basically made one big hole while we increased charge weights. He settled on 69gr and fired that 6-shot group on top of the earlier load work.

Jason

tagged