Today I am re-reading Jack O'Connor's book, "The Rifle Book", copyright 1964. I found the following quotes about the .243 Winchester cartridge very interesting. Pages 185-187:

"In my opinion the .243 has been greatly overpraised. I consider it inferior not only to the .244-6mm Remington, but to the .250/3000 Savage cartridge which it drove from the Savage line."

"As a matter of fact, both 6-mm cartridges were greatly overpraised when they came out, and for all around use on deer and varmints I'd prefer the old .250/3000 to the .243 and the .257 Roberts to the .244." "However, the .243 has been a roaring success."

"I prefer the .244 (6mm Rem) to the .243. I like the shape of the case better. The powder capacity is greater. The 26-degree shoulder is more adapted to the use of slow-burning powders than the 20-degree shoulder of the .243."

Some people have tried to claim that O'Connor was a marketing mouth-piece for Winchester because of his long support for the .270 Win. cartridge. He was a supporter of the .270 long before he had any influence in the firearms industry. His lack of enthusiasm for the .243 cartridge also reinforces the idea that he was not working for the Winchester marketing department. To this day there is much of value to be found in the writings of Jack O'Connor.

In the 60's the bullets available for the 243 were not up to the task. The old cup and core were true to their name, if you recovered the animal you found a cup and the core and many times they just exploded on impact. My brother had one and hunted with it a few years. He finally rebarreled it to 308 and was much happier.
With today's bullets, Jack probably would change his tune.

Never had to agree with another man's opinion when I could arrive at my own.

How do the three chamberings that you mention rank today?

Also,when Winchester dropped the (what is now known as the Pre '64) old M 70 for the "new" (Post '64) M 70 JOC pretty much tore Winchester a new one.

I suppose nothing has improved since 1964?.........lol.

Great new thread.

Your conclusion that he was not just marketing agent for Winchester is probably accurate. If he were here today I bet he would have a different view of the 6mm and 243. Although I think he may well still prefer the 6mm

Except the critter doesn't know alla this, and dies when hit well anyway.
Jack was just another writer, and sometimes full of it.

GeoW,

Well, today, the 243 is still a roaring success, just like Jack said it was in 1964. The 257 Roberts is more alive today than it was in 1964. The 6mm Rem and the 250 Savage are alive and maintaining their small piece in the big picture about the same as they were in 1964.

Jack's reasons for preferring the 6mm Rem case over the 243 case haven't changed. He had a custom 6mm Rem built for himself. He didn't mention having any 243's, that I saw.

I wish Jack was still around to give us his views on the scene today.

I'll take a .243 in a short action over a 6mm in a long action.

So far this thread has perhaps the highest ratio of irrational rifle-loony posts as any I've seen in a long time.

Thanks!

I've made peace with my 6mm in a short action, and I prefer it over a .243 in a short action. To each his own. Here was Jack's choice:

Jack's custom .244/6mm was "made by Al Biesen,the famous Spokane, Washington gunsmith...with a 1-10 twist barrel on a 1912 Mauser action for the 7mm cartridge. He fitted a Leupold 8-x Mountaineer scope and stocked it superbly in French walnut. I seldom shoot a group from a bench rest with it that goes over one inch, and many are in the neighborhood of 1/2 inch. I have shot many rockchucks with it at 300 yards and over. For all practical purposes it is about as effective as the .25/06, with less blast and recoil." "The Rifle Book" page 185-186.

So now we have a pretty good idea what Jack thought of the 6mm Remington cartridge. If Jack had been working for Remington, they would have introduced the 6mm with 1-10 twist in the first place, avoided the whole .244 Rem debacle, and maybe Remington would have had the "roaring success" and left the 243 Win in the dust.

Interestingly, professional hunters in New Zealand at the same time he wrote that, were shooting more red deer with their .243's in one season than Jack O'Connor did with any cartridge in his lifetime.
Having said that, I am a Jack O'connor fan.

I've gotten more blood trailing practice helping friends with 243-shot deer than any other round. It seems with a 243 the guys want to see how light (and fragile) a bullet they can load in the round. That may be a contributing factor.

Ironic that I've probably tracked more game for others using 30 cal. Next would be 338.

Jack who?

I know I'm NOT the only one who knows this but, apparently the dis-info is still present.

I've been loading, shooting, and hunting the 243 and 6mm R since the 1980s. I also HAD/have a chronograph to compare loads so what I'm about to say, I have verified and others have too.

As to the powder capacity of the two cartridges, there IS ONLY 1 grain of difference in working, safe loads between them.

As to any velocity diff. there may be 30 fps or NOT depending on the rifle barrels on the individual guns.

The 6mm case LOOKS larger than the 243 because it's longer (taller) but IF you measure the difference of the cases you'll find the 243 is 'fatter' and the 6mm is more slender, therefore the capacities are NOT that different.

As to velocities, I've graphed MANY loads in both cartridges using the SAME powders. The velocities are so close that NO loader/hunter or game could distinguish between them.

Hope this helps, it has been proven.

Jerry

It is far easier to get a 3000 fps load for the 100-grain bullets in the 6mm with a 22-inch barrel than with a .243. I have had both. I will stay with the 6mm. I shoot 100-grain Hornadys at 3000fps and it is not a max load.

The old cup and core bullets lacked performance then and still have issues today which drives the market for premium bullets.

The common hunter who doesn't want to pay for copper slugs or premium bullets to make a 243 really perform is better off shooting a larger caliber where most any base line loading works and inspires more confidence that it will work.

Well at least no one has called the .243 gay�like the .270

You are correct. Everybody knows the .240 Weatherby is better...

When he went to Africa and took a 7mm mag, he said it couldn't even compare to the 270. The 270 was superior in every aspect. That's when I stopped reading his stuff. Is this a irrational rifle-loony post?

In "The Rifle Book" on page 237 Jack says, "The 7-mm Magnum should be a very effective and successful cartridge for any North American big game. With the 150 gr bullet the trajectory is a little flatter than that of the fine .270."

Maybe he had bullet problems in Africa or something.

"The 6mm case LOOKS larger than the 243 because it's longer (taller) but IF you measure the difference of the cases you'll find the 243 is 'fatter' and the 6mm is more slender, therefore the capacities are NOT that different. "

Jack said he liked the shape of the 6mm case better. I do, too.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

It is like two pretty girls, side by side, who weigh within a couple of pounds of each other. I happen to prefer the one that is two inches taller and slightly thinner.

No one has (yet) said the .243 is gay, but I do think the 6mm case is sexier. To each his own, and something for everybody.

N 250 -

Yep, I also like the ' looks ' of the 6 mm better.

I was only showing the loading capabilities of both using the 'same' components.

I'm not saying the powder 'charges' are the exact same but they will be close and the velocities will be very similar, with the possible exception of different tolerances in chamber/throat/bore.

At the same time I'll not enter an argument about it.

I tried really hard not to like the 243 Winchester. I have owned two rifles chambered for said round and still own one. I find it very easy to find an accurate hand load for and it kills deer on down to p-dogs pretty well.
Having said that I prefer the 257 Roberts for similar jobs.
Just because.

I tend to agree with thinking the the .270 is the better round though I wouldn't call it superior. Nothing about the 7mm RM appeals to me in anyway, had a couple and a few other 7mm's and always went back to the plain old .270 Win.

Just to kick up the barnyard dust. Have to say the 6mm is the better designed case. Longer neck, longer barrel life and no rumors of pressure excursions. Although if you shoot enough rounds to burn out the throat it probably would get more erratic pressures like any other cartridge.

But I have owned 6-243s and only one 6mm. This was more due to the scarcity of left hand 6mms than anything else.

Maybe it should be called the Ingwe junior to avoid the G-bashing.

If he were here today, he wouldn't be able to find any 6mm brass.

I always wanted a 6mm, but never saw one I liked, (pre-WWW days) and finally gave up. The .243 wasn't an option as I was convinced that it wasn't quite as good and had a few issues with case-stretching and erratic pressures (or so I read). Not long ago I got an itch for something in this power bracket, and a little research showed me that the only cartridge with brass readily available was the .243. So now I have a Bofors Steel Sako that I picked up for a reasonable price and while I don't know yet if I'm gonna like the .243, I already like the little Forester a lot. Got some 100gr. Pro Hunters and Partitions, some brass, and about 4 or 5 suitable powders. Here we go.

I just got the boy a Remington 660 .243 win. with a Leupold 2-7x28 and a Timney trigger. He's gonna run 100 grain Partitions and it should be the perfect woods rifle.

Ingwe likey the .243�..

I like the 243, don't really care what some guy said about it in 1964.

Shows jack was just as human as anyone of us, and could be wrong as easily.rip jack we miss you !!!

I prefer the 6mm Rem over the other 24's because i have killed more than 60 deer with the 6mm Rem and have never found it lacking. I also like the 243 Win and will never bad mouth it. My personal opinion the 6mm-06 is the best of the 24's for Big Game Hunting when everything else is said and done. .

The 243 is gay and is for skinny little wimps that can't handle a REAL rifle....
Sorry someone had to say it after all those posts. I personally like the 7mm line over the 6mm line but have only ever seen one of the mythical 270's in person one time and I dared not hold it...
Mostly because the badass Marine that owned it looked like he would wipe the floor with me if I tried:)

His was a bone stock Browning Abolt that put 5 handloaded SGK rounds through one hole at 200 yards of a bipod. Best shooting I have seen in awhile and he killed a nice buck with it the same year I saw it at 3-400 yards IIRC no flies on the 270

If you had handled a .270, you would have caught 'the gay'�.

So,if a person owns a .270 & .243 does that make them bi-sexual?

I've read the words of a wise man that stated here on the campfire, women and kids can kill deer with a .243 but for some reason gun writers can't.
Not a quote but is the intent of the wise man's posts.

I didn't say that�I plagiarized it FROM a gun writer�.

Good answer!!! I'm going to keep an eye on you!!!

I just laughed out loud so hard my 13 year old looked at me weird
Though he is thirteen so maybe that is normal

I don't recall him saying anything like that. Where did he write that?

I know he whacked at least one elk with the big 7, a Model 70 I believe. He also wrote that the 150 gr. load killed faster than the 175. I don't think he disliked the 7, just didn't need it.

Nice. I just saw one on GB in 6mm, but restrained myself.

I don't know if you've ever seen them, but someone makes a steel replacement trigger guard for the 600/660 for the ones that have issues with the plastic. About a "C" note, I believe.

I think his name is CMWV or something like that?

I may have seen it in a Sarco ad, or something similar.

Just did a quick Google, and Numrich has a cast steel replacement for $97.75. Part #811200.

How's that for service?

How did you get Ingwe's ROTC picture?

Just the opposite for me....

and I add that I have 5 different 243s and two 6mm Remingtons on long actions...

Wow. You were right about the C note.

O'Connor stated for a woods gun he would probably choose a Marlin lever or Remington pump in .35 Remington, or a Winchester 88 or Savage 99 in .308 Winchester.

Jack WAS right about the 250

PennDog

Duck - Butter Per,Say

MM is super friends with Larry. This will explain the 243 love.

laffin'.

Here's to hopin' you don't lob a cartoon my way..........

No worries ..... all in fun!

Glad to hear it. For a minute there I was afraid you were gonna go "full secret squirrel".

Just to add fuel to the fire: two forty three kinda rolls off the tongue better than six millimeter remington or two forty four remington and that's why I think it's more popular! :>)

When I ask "Whatcha huntin' wid?" most folks who use one say "Two forty three." and don't append the "Winchester" to it.

Good to hear of so many Jack O'Connor fans.

Visit the center in Lewiston, Idaho:

http://jack-oconnor.org/

Take a look, consider supporting it, getting a membership.

Would Jack be excited about the .243 were he with us today? I doubt it, but let this goofy (or should I say "loony")argument continue!

That certainly solidifies "the .243 is gay" theories, does it not?

Nifty-two-fifty: I hold Jack O'Connor in the highest of regard!
Not just for the style of his writings (articles, books and novels!) but for his common sense and accuracy regarding most all things HUNTING!
He, might even "adjust" his 1964 opinion of the 243 Winchester somewhat, if he were alive today - mostly due to the wonderful new bullets and powders that are available for it now!
I often (once a year or so) do the same thing you are doing and take down from my extensive collection of Jack O'Connor books or magazine articles and "re-read" them.
I also enjoy "remembering" the brief personal encounter I had with Jack O'Connor many decades ago at an N.R.A. Convention!
He was a true artisan of prose and a long time, dedicated and spiritual Hunter.
I wish he had lived longer - and may he rest in peace.
His advocacy and "defense" of the wonderful and outstanding 270 Winchester cartridge needs NO defense of any kind what so ever!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I agree, he was the best.

I sense he got a little cranky in his later years. But I'm understanding, now, why that might happen.