I have read several reports of deer being shot with .223 and big game bullets leaving little to no blood trail. After my seven year old killed one on Saturday with a 50 grain TTSX and deer left no blood trail it got me to thinking. I think he will hunt with the 223 at least one more year and then I have a younger son that will use it also so I am thinking I will need to change bullets and/or caliber to see blood trails.

Do the heavier (65+ grain) bullets leave a better blood trail on average from the 223?

Do .224 bullets work better with more speed say from a 22-250, 220 swift, etc. ?

Or all they all about the same?

Dink

I could show pics of about my last 6 223 kills. I never needed to blood trail any of them.

Everything from a$$ shots to neck shots.

Maybe somebody else can better answer. Blood tails have never been an issue, as of yet....

Just three days ago I saw two examples of very light blood trails from well hit deer. Plenty of gun was used too, 7mm mag with 160 grain bullets. Through and through shots.

Too heavy of a bullet that won't expand will do that. I never understand why people run a bullet constructed for elk or moose on deer, or vice versa.

If your not shooting for bone then shot placement needs to be slightly lower with the 22's and the blood trails tend to be more like those with broadheads.

I wouldn't know anything about this.....

I saw the deer being dressed. The bullets thoroughly tore up the innards, so even though the bullets weren't recovered there is no reason for me to believe they didn't expand.

Range and shock can do that, even if there wasn't any expansion. A 140 out of the 7 would have been a better choice.

Dink I've never killed anything with a .223 but I do have some anecdotal stories for you. Make of them what you will.

A acquaintance of mine many moons ago decided to go from black powder muzzle loaders back to modern arms. He settled on the Ruger Mini-14 in .223. He asked me what type of bullets he should use. I responded that his caliber choice was crazy but if he had to use that caliber full metal jackets were the only thing use. He shot a antelope with FMJ several times before the antelope died. No blood trail and extremely hard to find but he did find the antelope. He switched to 55 grain soft points on his next kill which was a Muley buck shoot through the neck. One shoot and dead right there. The big difference between the FMJ and the soft point was the FMJ went in and out leaving two small holes and no blood trail whereas the soft point exploded inside of the deer like a hand grenade had gone off. No exit hole and no blood trail but there was no need for one as the deer died right where it had been shot. The next target was a very large black bear. Same outcome. One shot in the boiler plate as the bear stood up on its hind legs at about 75 yards, the bear let out a woof fell over backwards and died right there. 55 grain soft point, no exit hole, the insides looked like a hand grenade had gone off.

Hunted with an old mountain man type who hunted with the only rifle he had an original Remington factory rifle in 22-250 who hunted everything from prairie dogs to grizzlies (when it was legal) with elk his favorite meat. 55 to 60 grain bullets with same results.

I've worked with retired professional hunters for the Feds that used .220 Swifts and .22-250's to hunt everything including grizzlies. They all used 55 to 60 grain bullets at high speed that fragmented like a grenade inside of the animal. No blood trails but there really wasn't a need for one. All animals were DRT or a few feet from where they were shot.

All the anecdotal evidence I've heard or seen has suggested to me a .224 caliber in the 55 to 60 grain soft point range driven at very high velocities and that fragment will get the job done. But if one wants a blood trail to follow than big bullets that leave a big hole hole going in and hopefully an even bigger hole coming out is the way to go.

I've shot one deer with a 55 gr bullet 185 yards in the head went down right there didn't need a blood trail . I use any gun between an mostly a 270 shoot for head don"t need blood trail. when you shoot at target where do you shoot at an what your group at 200 yards enough said

I don't follow your logic. If the innards are thoroughly messed up via "range and shock" or by an expanding bullet passing through, they're still thoroughly messed up. So why no big blood trail from the two holes, given the carnage between them?

The bullets were Partitions which have soft front ends deliberately made to readily expand and cause tissue disruption. Ranges were inside 250 yards, so the bullets weren't below the speed threshold for expansion.

I prefer the 154 grain Hornady for my 7 mags, but I sincerely doubt these Partitions didn't open.

I've been thinking on .223 bullets quite a bit lately. I've taken several deer with the 62 TSX. I've only shot shoulders and they've gone down right there, a few have kicked a bit but there was no tracking. I've no complaints about the bullet. There was also precious little blood left at the scene of the crime.

I put a .223AI together for my kids to use but the oldest (9) hasn't shot anything with it yet. He's pretty good on paper but I've been thinking about the blood trail if he shoots for the lungs. Line of sight after the shot on a running deer is very short where we hunt...without a blood trail it could get tough. It has made me consider a more violent bullet to the lungs....

I guess I should lung shoot one with the 62TSX for R&D to see for myself.

My bud's dad "Pappy" used to call the 7mmRM the "worst SOB deer rifle there is". And that is because they would "pencil through at high speed with little shock and often produce runners" (in his words).....

I have a nice supply of 70TSXs yet.

BUT, I picked up at least 400 or more Win 64gr. PowerPoints. When TSXs do run out, I have no problem running the Winnys at deer......

On the whole expansion thing, I can't believe the old myths and beliefs still exist. Hunting bullets will typically do all the expanding they are going to do in the first 3-4 inches( Bergers seem to be an exception).
They do not fail to expand or 'pencil on through'
Velocity has a lot to do with it, bigger, heavier, slower bullets don't leave the really messy wound channels ultra fast bullets do. But at high speeds you can put a hole through a critter big enough to fit your gun in with a solid. At low speeds the same bullet makes a little hole. It didn't expand either time.
Even the monolithic bullets expand fully in the first few inches.....

Got a nice .222 listed in the classifieds if that would interest you for deer.

Got two of them...

Don't be ridiculous.

You can't use a 222 on deer.

That would be a good thing then, since my broadheads let blood out like a firehose.

I honestly have a hard time telling which kills better. I've used 223s to a 480 Ruger, and everything in between. They all work very well.

The largest bloodtrail I've seen to date was produced by a 444 Marlin @ 50yds. via a 270gr Speer Gold Dot (Deep Curl). There was blood for 6 feet on both sides of trail the 5.5 yr. old doe ran down before dropping. Golf ball sized entrance hole, baseball sized exit hole.

I will say I have seen some pretty dramatic stuff with the big bores. Where it looked like the invisible man spin kicked the deer and knocked it sideways, upon impact. Literally knocking them off their feet. BUT, dead is dead, and the smaller calibers, at higher speed with good bullets, have never failed to produce dead deer.....

Largest bloodtrail I've seen from a deer to date was with a .257 Wby Mag with 120 gr. NPs. Hunting partner was watching my shot with binos and freaking out... said he could see a thumb-sized jet of blood pumping out of the offside of the buck as he ran 40 yards and keeled over. He immediately tried (and failed) to buy my rifle...

These stories of no blood crack me up. The last doe I shot with a 53gr TSX left a trail that Stevie and Ray could follow. They don't bleed outside of the body real well if the shots are above the half line of the body. Shoot them below that and they pump the blood out real well.

Or do the high shoulder shot and drop them like everyone else here does (except me).

If you want a blood trail use a .270 Winchester.

It will just be a very shot blood trail.

I have seen the ghey leave a DRT, short 10 yard trail, and 100+ yard trail and everything in-between. Just like every other cartridge on the market.

If everyone knew this the internet would be a slow place for us that are interested in ballistic gack and nit picking.

No.....don't feel like the lone ranger. Lung shooter here.....but I haven't found my Holy Grail trophy yet.

He's seven.

For the record I shot a buck last year with a 270 and 130 grain TTSX that ran 100ish yards and never left a drop of blood either.

I've seen 12 gauge shotgun slugs poke holes as big as a broomstick clear through both sides of a deer yet no blood trail. Alot depends on the location of the wound.More than halfway up the body may not leak any blood to speak of, regardless of the size of the holes. Holes in the lower one third tend to leak profusely. I've killed over 30 deer with various .22 centerfires and have yet to need a blood trail. Truth be told, it's been VERY rare to actually NEED a blood trail no matter what cartridge/caliber I've used as the VAST majority have gone down either within sight, within hearing or are easily found just by going to the spot they were last seen and looking ahead. A high percentage of my deer have been killed in what most folks would refer to as "heavy cover" too. Most just don't go very far after a well placed shot.

Its illegal in most places, immoral and unethical everywhere......


Savage99 told me so.

I meant you can't.

I'll use it all day long.

RAR 223/62TSX in the Desert...from a coupla days ago.

Pardon the variable being on 6X.



May have been a "fluke"?!?



Hint................

If you want a blood trail with a 223 yet still have plenty of penetration, your best bet is the Nosler 64 Bonded Solid Base. Push it as fast as you can.

Over the decades I've shot a few deer with my 220 Swift. I got inconsistent results, and I think the problem was the bullet. More bullet choices now, though I haven't tried it on deer again. That could change now that the 64 Gr Nosler BSB stabilizes in the 220. Had to run it at redline to make it shoot good. In the 223, the BSB shoots great, also at full max with H335. I was gonna try them both out on pigs, but the pigs won't cooperate.

If a fellow wants a blood trail, my 270 with the 130 gr BT will give you what you want, though the king of blood trails for me has always been my old 35 Remington. That 200 gr punkin ball bullet at 2000 fps or so will drill through most anything.

I know the swift kills like lightning bolt with the old speer 70 gr..
It's kinda round nose. And going about 3700 ( guessing)

I've seen an absolute ton of deer killed with 55grn softpoints, .223 and 22/250. I have seen that going lower weight than 55grn has caused trouble though.

I'd be curious of reports with the heavier cup and cores like the 65grn Sierra and 75grn Amax.

65 grain GK kills deer dead.

I'll be using the 70 gr. VLD next...

+1 on blood trail and the 35 Remington with a 200 gr bullet.

Good to hear Rancho, I have a batch of the 65grn Sierra's loaded up ready to go in 10 days for the openner.

I'll get the mag mod for my RAR and try the 75grn amax after this season is over. The Amax's are wicked looking little javelins.

I reiterate...the 55 gr TTSX....

Nothing like a pile O' dinks in the back of a pickup to make you smile.

What velocities are we achieving with the 62gr TSX from a vanilla 223? I am a little over 3000fps in a 20" barrel. Not sure if I can get more. No signs of pressure using L brass and 7.5 sparklers.

I will loading up some of these Friday night to give 'em a try over the next several weeks.

This has been my experience as well. Also had good results with the 55TSX.

Loaded some 50 grain GMX last night to try in a Ruger 77 I picked up with a 9 twist. Hoping the wife and daughter each stick one through a deer with the rig. Going to try the Nosler solid base as well. Shooting session Sunday with the rig...

A 62X is a mean motor scooter....

The 70gr. is more of a good thing.........

I've flattened deer with factory fed's 62gr BBC's and 55 grain V-max handloads. They made little to no movement after impact and made me wonder why I shoot any caliber larger. All put in the engine room and never had a need for anywhere else. You can track deer without a blood trail even in heavy cover.

???

130gr NBT will fix that. Unless of course you are a gut shooter.

you need a 150 grain Sierra gameking from a 30-06 for a good gut shot.

They DO leave signs of their passage...

Yes. But certainly easier in some areas than others.

That is for sure!

A couple of years ago (I think) there was thread about using 223 on deer. Guys posted their rifles and harvested animals. Wish I could find that thread?? Anyone by chance remember??

Several guys used Barns bullets down to 40 grs. (I think), regularly and with good success!!

No doubt the 223 is sufficient for killing deer but I was hoping one bullet would stand out as leaving better blood trails. From everything I have read it all bullets in the 223 are hit and miss when it comes to leaving blood trails.

I am going to get him a bolt gun and have it twisted 1-8. His 16 inch single shot is just to loud. I will probably try something heavier next year.

Dink

I've killed a bunch with several different bullets and have seen a bunch else killed with several different bullets. Can't comment on blood trail as I've yet to have a deer shot with a 223/AI go further than a few steps.

I have found the 53gr. TSX and the 55gr. TTSX to leave a good blood trail.



Travis

Theres a new thread on the subject every couple weeks....just stand by.....


And +1 on what steelhead said....I haven't needed a blood trail yet...after 27 kills with the Barnes/cf .22 combo...

I could hunt deer for the rest of my life with a 22 caliber and not feel handicapped.

Another +1 to what steelie said...

Ive killed 2 deer in the past 10 years with something other than a .22 cf....

I've shot sheit with a bunch of different stuff. Can't count how many different rifles/cartridges have been used in the past 10 years.

That said, I trust my 223Ai the mostest, followed closely by the 250AI.

Can't wait to flame a deer with the Krag. I'm pretty sure of what the results will be.

180gr enters deer, deer runs 30 yards, deer dies.

As I've said before, if I could redo my life I'd own two 223AI's, one light, one heavy and two 308's, one light and one heavy.

That would cover me for everything in NA.

I'd of course have to have a Savage 99 in 300 Savage, because everyone should own one.

You might just like that Krag...theres a lot to be said for heavy slow bullets too....


( 7x57 and 175s spring to mind instantly....)


Report back!

Standby. There might be an upcoming Newfoundland moose hunt (not this year) and there might be a Krag going.

Done with the '95....


nothing could be more skookum!

I'm thinking I should be able to hit a Volkswagen sized kill zone with open sights out to 150 yards.

Yep! Moose is bigger than a hedge apple.



I killed an Oryx at 250 with iron sights. My PH asked if I could hit him....yeah, he has a vital area the size of a Radio Flyer...

That's the ever loving thing ain't it. You don't have to throw 5 in 1/2", you just need to throw one in washtub sized target.

People make killing too complicated.

When you use the little guns,a little surgical precision doesn't hurt...but still isn't as necessary as folks are led to believe.

Which is even easier with the little guns.

Ingwe/Steelhead. You've summed up all the problems of the hunting world nicely. Minute of radio flyer should be a new standard. I seem to fill my tags and freezer quite nicely with a naked recurve and cedar sticks without issue. Throw in a scoped .223 with good bullets and life sure gets simple.
Contrary to my handle I haven't needed the ol '06 (s) in a few seasons. I merely take them out to knock the dust off anymore.

DINK: I have from time to time relayed here how my close friends here in SW Montana have a "family" 223 Remington Rifle they use to fill their freezers with every year.
This family consists of 4 daughters a mom and a dad all who Hunt.
They harvest around 6 to 10 animals a year with their Remington 700 in 223!
I have seen members of this family take at least 10 animals first hand - all were one shot kills and IIRC all were DRT!
This list of witnessed animals includes Mule Deer, Antelope and Whitetailed Deer.
A few years back I saw one daughter kill a 31" Mule Deer Buck with one shot from the 223!!!
This was a BIG bodied Deer by the way!
The same daughter killed a Mt. Goat a few years earlier (again with one shot!) using the families trusty 223.
The family uses Remington factory ammo (55 grain PSP's by Remington) for their Hunting needs.
Never heard of a "blood trail lost" from my friends.
I think the "plan" with the 223 Remington and medium size game is to shoot them in the heart/lung area and let the bullet "explode" therein - this results in a quick and humane kill.
If this is accomplished (the correct shot placement and a good bullet like the 55 grain Remington PSP!) you will not need to be looking for a blood trail.
I have used 22 centerfires on Deer and Antelope a few times myself - I would certainly NOT use a 100% copper bullet (like the TTSX's!) on them.
Try the 55 grain Remington PSP's next year.
Please extend my congratulations to your young Hunter.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I've not shot any big game with a 22 cal. I do know a thing or two about blood trails. They have more to do with shot placement than caliber, as others have mentioned. Shoot at the heart/lung juncture, and there will be blood. Shots lower in the body cavity allow leakage. Of course, the bigger the hole, the more blood can leak. My best blood trails on deer have been short (about 50 ft max), and look like a bucket sloshing. These have been with various calibers hitting in the bottom 1/3 of the ribs near the foreleg, and generally clip the top of the heart.

To summarize: it isn't the bullet, it's the shot placement.

We shot a medium size doe last weekend. She took about two steps, twirled and dropped. Used 55gr TSX VorTx ammo and a 20" AR15. We have been using a .280 Rem and a 30-06 in the past. I'm very impressed with the damage (boiler room) and she did spray blood, enough to follow if needed. I'm not looking at going with the 55gr or possibly 62gr in my 223 as well. Not sure why we use a larger gun