Just wondering if in general rimmed cartridges suffer a disadvantage with respect to longer range accuracy (200-400 yards).

I was cleaning a crapload of 30-30 cases this weekend, and I got to thinking.

You know, normal underactive-overthinking stuff while its raining.

Uncle Sam being a dick about 223 rem ammo.

You have a bunch (read:unholy) amount of 30-30 brass.

You have a bunch of 22cal 50 gr bullets.

You think you know where an old Savage 340 is.

You start thinking of a zipper, and just how effective it would be at longer ranges.

Sure, its right handed, but WTH.

Anyway, are rimmed high velocity cartridges at a disadvantage by design compared to their shouldered head-space brethren?

No.....why in hell would they be?

Build your Zipper, by all means.

Those old Savage 340s are accurate BTW.

Started shooting deer with one.

Can't think of an unanswered logical argument why, but when its only oneself asking and answering the questions, one can never be too careful.

That's why I have the internet....

Where all questions are answered - just not necessarily correctly...

On my rimmed cases, I adjust the sizer die so the shoulder is bumped back around .002" or so, which is the same as I do for rimless cases. So powder capacity & twist being equal, I would think the rimless cases should perform the same.

I think most (if not almost all) of the long range guys use bolt guns, which makes rimless cases a bit more troublesome. And single shots have two piece stocks, which can create accuracy issues.

I never have messed with a Zipper, but I have a Ruger #1 in .218 Bee, and for the small capacity seems to get plenty of speed in the small action, in the 3200's with 40 gr bullets

And the .30-40 in the strong #1 action, can equal .308 speeds.

The old-time cartridges will not be found in a fast twist barrel, so you'd have to build one.

So it all sounds like a reasonable project, to me

A savage 340 would be easy enough to get a short chambered barrel for, but now that you mentioned the 30-40, wouldn't a Krag rebarreled to a zipper be a neat little gun?

Hmmmm.

RWE;
Good afternoon to you sir, hopefully this finds you well.

I'm again going off of a foggy memory here, but at one time in the not too distant past there was a faction that was tired of the Russian derived PPC case taking all the glory in benchrest.

They - whomever "they" were - got someone and I want to say it was Federal to make up a bunch of .30-30 cases with small rifle primer pockets and made up to match case specs.

Anyway what the eventual outcome was I can't say nor recall, but I BELIEVE the initial results were favorable enough to be fun anyway.

We've played a fair bit with .30-30 and .303 British rounds here and size them as my cyber friend tex n cal describes.

Hopefully that was useful information for you or someone out there this afternoon sir. Good luck on the project whichever way you decide and all the best to you this March.

Dwayne

If you're going to hotrod a .219 Zipper I can think of more suitable actions than a Savage 340 or Krag (and mind you I have a soft spot for 340's and Krags). The single locking lugs found in both don't provide a huge margin of safety beyond the cartridges/pressures they were designed for. I know, the 340 was factory chambered in .225 Winchester once, but notice also the factory quietly withdrew it after a short run. If you stuck to relatively tame factory-level loads I can't imagine any issues, but who among us wouldn't be tempted to stretch performance a bit? Were it me I would scrounge up a Ruger #1, Winchester HiWall, or somesuch for a high velocity rimmed .22CF round.

No, short-chamberred .22 barrels aren't readily available for the 340. Barreling one from scratch would be just as expensive as barreling anything else, and then in the end all you would have would still be a Savage 340 (adequate but somewhat understrength) that you've just sunk a ton of money into.

Get yourself a copy of Landis' book on .22 caliber varmint rifles. Writing in 1946, he was in the thick of all that experimentation back then and charts the history, successes, and failures of guys who long ago traveled down this path. Fascinating reading. A must-read for someone who doesn't want to re-invent the wheel. This stuff has all been done before.

Did we just re-invent the 22 Hi-Power?

If anything, you have two areas to headspace upon: rim and neck. That can aid in accuracy, but also in variance of the rim, perchance, is not uniform.

For what you want, the .219 Zipper would kick ass. Consider another barrel in .25-35 (AI?) as well.

The advantage of using the Savage 340 would be really low initial cost (being that you know where you can find one). The rebarrel would be the major expense......and it could turn out to be a great shooter.

As I recall, the .225 Winchester was actually an Improved Zipper, so the plain old Zipper had somewhat lower pressures anyhow, so I don't see worries as to strength of action.

Still sounds good to me.

Could there be an old Savage 340 .225 Winchester barrel available from some parts dealer?

Intriguing idea.

Belted cases essentially headspace the same as rimmed cases. I believe there have been a pile of long range ( 1000yd) target shooting done with 300 winchester rifles. So the presence or absence of a rim is irrelevant IMHO.

I've had several .219 Zippers over the last thirty years. One was on a Krag action. I certainly wouldn't hot-rod a Krag, but then it's not necessary. One can get surprisingly good performance from a Krag-actioned .219 Zipper without straining anything. The Zipper has about 20% greater case capacity than a .223 Remington.

However, if you build a Zipper on a Krag action, you will have something that's not particularly desirable at resale time. Also, consider the cost of dies, the case forming chore, and frequent trimming of brass due to the shape of the case.

The Zipper sucks that's why the 219 Donaldson Wasp was invented.

There were lots of Zippers built on Krags also the 25 Krag. A better choice was and is a highwall.

If you don't have every book written by Charles Landis in your library you are missing a lot.

The 22 HP also sucked especially the silly .228 bullet and tapered case designed to increase bolt thrust on an action that was already springy.

Landis is why I own a R.F. Sedgley 22-06 fast twist that with today's powders and super bullets is killing machine long after a Swift or 22-250 has died.

The only equal modern cartridge is the 22/244 IMP which has the advantage of a shorter powder column.

BTW all cartridges with a shoulder should headspace on the shoulder.

Rims were for cartridges with no real shoulders and belts were H&Hs brilliant design to allow cartridges to be made undersized so they would always feed in cordite fouled, dirty and even rusty chambers and still have something to headspace on.

IMHO a 500 book library on guns and shooting is far better than 10 gunsafes stuffed with 500 guns.

If you built a top grade single shot target rifle using the 300 flanged (rimmed 300 H&H) you would be at no disadvantage against rimless or belted cartridge rifles.

Rims were also for cartridges designed for lever actions like the Zipper.

The Improved Zipper became a commercial cartridge as the .225 Winchester.....the Wasp never achieved that type of honor, did it?

According to my case capacity chart, the 219 Zipper holds 3 more grains of H2O, 34 grains, than the 223 at 31 grains. The 225 holds 41 grains of H2O, 7 more grains (21%) than the 219 and 10 more grains (32%) than the 223.

Rimmed cartridges accurate?

What is 'extended range'?

1 Mile?

The only thing that affects extended range performance is the bc of the boolit and the accuracy of the round launching it.

A case whether rimmed, rimless or belted is simply a container to hold a given volume of powder and a means of sealing the breach to hold the pressure of the gasses.

30-30 brass can give problems with incipient case head separation with a stretchy action like a t/c contender, but in a strong action there's nothing wrong with it.

Some bench resters even had Federal make a special run of small primer pocket 30-30 cases to see what they could do. They didn't topple the PPC, but as the case has a similar powder capacity it didn't perform too shabby either.

Not sure if you want to invest in a custom reamer or dies, but a 22/30-30 ackley type round would likely be worth the effort. You'd just have to figure the case capacity you'd want and whether you'd want to blow the shoulder well forward to shorten up the neck and take advantage of the larger capacity, or if you'd want to keep it on the smaller side and trim the neck back to shorten it up and just blow out the body and shoulder at the current location.

I do the same thing. My particular .30-30's chamber has enough room that the shoulder on the brass moves forward .026" when fired for the first time.

when I was talking about accuracy issues, I really wasn't talking target rifle Larry.

I have a thing about building stuff, even eccentric and esoteric stuff, and killing things with it.

I'm sure in your reply there may have been something of value, but when you sprinkle in things like the 22-06 thriving when the swift and 22-250 have gone the way of the do-do, its hard for me to give anything you write any value at all.

Although I will visit the wasp.


Anyway, for the rest of the "build just because" folks, can anyone advise if the Remington 788 bolt heads are interchangeable? I can't remember if they are one piece.

Since the left hand 788's were left bolt, right eject, IIRC, can a RH bolt head from a 30-30 be used on a LH action?

The 788 is a fairly stout action for a zipper/wasp.

noted.

Doubt if the case is problematic. I have a 340 that shoots the 125 Nosler BT better than it should. Killed many crows and ground hogs past 300 yards. Trigger job would help immensely.

Worst detriment to accuracy with the 340 is the single lug on the bolt. Wasn't meant to be a hot-rod.

Mornin Dan:

I've always wondered what you looked like!!

I have a Ruger 1B that started life as a .223 and is now a .225 Winchester. It flat out shoots 55 gr Hornady and Varget. Cases were sized as per Tex n Cal directions. Will be trying it at 300 and 400 yd once the snow goes.

Flyer

Remember though, when Charles Newton designed the .22 HiPower, .228" .22 bullets were the norm in the couple of lonely .22CF cartridges on the market. It wasn't until experimenters started messing with .22RF barrels for the purpose of CF wildcats that .223/.224" bullets became the norm. That and the early experiments by Niedner where he went straight to .224s after a brief dalliance with .228s. Within its design limitations, the Savage .22HP, and its virtual twin the .219 Zipper, are ok. It's when guys try to make them into something they aren't is when they start to suck. (For example, I feed three .22HP barrels, and I shoot probably 20 cast bullets for every jacketed one thus avoiding a lot of the angst associated with the round.)

I've been reading Landis for 45 years, and have every book he wrote.

Definitely the best (for my purposes of groundhog shooting out to 3-350 yards) .22CF rig I ever owned was a .219 Wasp (later design) heavy barreled HiWall, built by Jerry Gebby. I fed loads through that thing that would have caused a Savage 340 to excuse itself and go take a powder.

For the uninformed: the .22-06 wasn't simply a .30-06 case necked down to .22. The case was shortened in the process, looking much like a 7x57 necked to .22. Remember empty gov't '06 brass 70 years ago could be had for about $1/bushel basket full, so a lot of wildcats had -06 in their name.

I still have a secret urge to build a .22 Marciante Blue Streak (.22HP case blown out to the max, essentially), based solely on reading Landis. (But I wouldn't build it on a Savage 340!) Crazy printed velocities (to be taken with a grain of salt), but he did name it after the blue-gray trace the bullets left behind them in flight- probably melting cores in those early crappy bullets.

The only Krag .22CF I have is a heavy barreled single shot Krag built by Hervey Lovell, in .22 Maximum Lovell, marksman stock, box magazine removed, double set triggers. Is it ideal? No, but I didn't build it. I wanted it for its provenance, but it turns out to be a sweet shooter.

I have built semi-serious target rifles chambered for some rimmed cartridges. In some cases I headspaced on the rim; in other cases I headspaced on the shoulder. When I headspaced on the rim, I uniformed rim thickness to within .0005" and chambered the rifle with .001" clearance. This seemed to work about the same as headspacing on the shoulder but was more trouble and, therefor, more elegant!
Rifles included a 788 chambered for the 219 Wasp. A Ruger 77 Chambered for the 30/40 Krag, a P14 in 303 British, a Remington 40X in 30/30, and a P14 in 30/40. The 30/40 Ruger and the 303 P14 were both solid 3/8 moa performers. The jury is still out on the 40X in 30/30 but I have high hopes for it.
I shot the 303 P14 to second place in a highly competitive 300 Meter "F" class match. In doing so, I beat a whole bunch of 6 BR's so it shot pretty good. I shot the same rifle out to 600 meters and it was absolutely competitive with any .308 at the same ranges.
One thing that I have noticed in the rifles chambered for the rimmed cases is that they can be loaded pretty hot with no ill effects. I had no trouble exceeding 2750 FPS in the 303 with 174's. Likewise, I could easily reach 2700 with 180's in the 30/40 with no ill effects. Given the capacities of the two cases, the pressures had to be high.
By the way, the 219 on the 788 was not quite competitive as a LV rifle and shot no better than about .350 moa. I re-barreled it to 6 PPC. I have always intended to try another 219 on a good BR action but this may never happen. GD

If I could shoot like Kenny W. I would wrap myself around your faulty vision and roll!

I'm taller, a bit trimmer and don't have the chin fuzz. He's funnier by...a mile.

D

I'm not sure where you're drawing the line when you define high velocity, but my .22 Hornet hits 3K with a 40 gr Vmax and if the rim is hurting it's accuracy, I sure can't tell.

They are one piece, like a 700 bolt without front lugs.

Regarding accuracy, just ignore the rim and size cases to headspace on the shoulder.

+1 on the Hornet accuracy. Mine is in a Ruger #1, and I only neck size the fired cases; it shoots tiny bughole groups.

Good advice.

The rimmed feature of the case is a product of it's era, and the type of weapons it was used in. Remington modernized it with the .30 Remington, and the rimless feature, to my knowledge, adds no accuracy edge. It is beneficial to feeding in certain magazine types where the cartridges stack on top of each other rather than end-to-end.

That ability opens up your choice in bullet selection, which is a huge contributor to long range capability, along with the ability of the rifle itself to be accurate.

I have often considered a bolt-action .30-30 just to enjoy the versatility of one over my M94 Winchester, which obviously is limited to FN bullets.

I don't believe the 788 for rimmed cartridges has a one piece bolt. I think they had a non-rotating head. The 219 Wasp I built was on a 308 action and I turned the rims to fit. I headspaced on the shoulder on this one. GD

Refresh my memory. The Zipper is a .25-35 (or .30-30) necked down, and the Wasp is? A .30-40 necked down?

The Wasp is just a Zipper with a slightly blown out case for a little more capacity.

Huh, just looked up some pictures, and you're right, they are a different bolt than the other 788's (except maybe the 44?). Looks like a little roll pin must slide in a channel in the action to keep the head straight. Thanks, I learned something for the day!

The 219 Wasp is a shortened and blown out Zipper. In fact, apart from the rim, the 219 Donaldson Wasp is remarkably similar to the 22 PPC. Guys tended to load it HOT! GD

I am friends with one of the worlds most accurate rifle builders. In his opinion, there are only two real factures to accuracy...consistency and crown. Take that for what it's worth.