I am riding the fence on 280 vs 280AI. Here is the deal, I am a small guy that hates recoil as I shoot a ton and love practicing with what I actually hunt with in the field. The thing is, I have a 280AI on order and am thinking about changing it to the standard 280 for a couple reasons. First off, the standard 280 loads will perform well enough for me, without the extra recoil of going to the 280AI. Also , I like the idea of being able to get NORMA 280 brass instead of NOSLER 280AI brass. I like that the Norma brass is a buck a piece as well as having a better reputation of quality brass over the Nosler 280AI brass being $1.75 a piece and having a little more of a spotty reputation.
What else am I missing here?
Which caliber will be easier on brass and barrel life? Also how noticeable is the recoil difference?
Im thinking hard about changing my order to the standard 280 instead of the 280AI....
I know the regular 280 isn't as cool, but then again Ive never been that cool anyways!!!

There is not going to be a significant recoil difference.

What action and stock?

Why the 280 at all. The ammo is not easy to find. Consider a 270 or less.

Here is an excellent slip on pad I use at the range.

Why not buy the Norma brass and fireform it? I personally couldn't tell the difference between the ackley and standard. If you are starting from scratch might as well go 280 ackley. Not costing you anymore or less. Dies, brass, and chambering is all same cost. And less trimming with 280 ackley

Norma manufactures Nosler's brass....

Recoil difference between the two would be insignificant.

If you're recoil sensitive buy a 7mm-08.

Load 140 Partitions at 2850 ft/sec MV and go kill stuff.



P

I've had both and still have 280s. The AI is not worth the trouble, IMO.

And the 280 is plenty cool.

But if you're really recoil sensitive, why not a 270, 25/06, 257R (it's cool ) , or even a 243?

^^^^ I'm with Pharm. You'd be set with a 7-08 shooting any 140-150 grainer.

The 270win shooting 110 barnes is another good, easier recoil load from what I hear.

Ok looks like the 280ai gets the nod over the standard 280. I kinda figured it would be preferred. I just wished there was a way of getting 280AI brass with the correct headstamp. I am anal as hell and would rather my brass have the right headstamp. Is nosler brass not a big deal to most of you? I just really like norma and lapua brass.
Scenarshooter....Are you saying that the nosler 280AI brass is actually made by Norma?
If so, that is awesome.

I thought hard about the 7-08 as I can get Lapua brass for it, but thought it may come up a touch short for Elk. I would rather have one rifle for everything from antelope to Elk. I want said rifle to be good out to about 600 which is my max comfort zone when conditions are perfect. The 7-08 Im thinking is really pushing it for elk at those ranges,

7-08AI?

I'm not sure how, based on the answers you got here, you came to that conclusion.

If you are really recoil sensitive, the 7/08 or a .260 would be a better choice provided you don't also decide to go to a lot lighter rifle as well. Another answer is to load light practice loads.

Also, if brass price and availability is a concern get a 7mmRM and have the best of both worlds: brass availability, lots of components. If recoil is too much, load it down to 280, standard or AI.

You will still have to burn more powder to load a magnum case down to standard case velocities.

I prefer the 280AI, but if you are a handloader, the 280 w/140 Parts would have slightly less recoil, particularly if you follow book loads for the 280.

I haven't had any issues with either version of brass from Nosler and have been using the AI brass since they came out with it.

I've shot the standard 280 for over 25 years and never found it lacking. I've had a 7 mag for 30 so I never went for the AI version. If I was sensitive to recoil I'd do a 7X57.

Norma does make 280 Ackley brass.

There are many good choices out there, but the 280AI is one of those rounds that I would consider nearly perfect.

That is ...if you're into headstamps!

Considering that what you want to do can be done nicely with a 308.

That is...if you're into bullets!

But if you really don't like recoil get a 7-08, 7-08AI or a Creedmore, and spend a few long nights on JBM.

But whatever you choose, I'd be more concerned with things that really do matter...like bullets, mag length, optics, etc...headstamps not so much.

You can form either much cheaper '06 brass . . .

I'd take the 280. It never really needed any "improvement".

In the AI you can shoot either cartridge. Not so the other way around. Start off with the 280 Rem, then sell the dies when you have enough AI brass made by firing. Use the same powder, bullets, primers, and everything else. Best of both worlds, but once you switch to the AI, you will be glad you did.

As scenar shooter stated , Nosler brass is made by Norma....... Just sorted and chamfered and such.

I am a big fan of the 280 A.I. but there is nothing wrong with the 280 Rem. If you hand-load I would vote for the 280 A.I. If not you might consider the 280 Rem. I doubt you could tell any difference in recoil between the two in an 8 lb rifle unless you shoot heavy for caliber bullets. I shoot mostly 140 grain bullets in my 280 A.I. in a rifle that weighs exactly 8 lbs scoped up and recoil is pleasant to me. Noticeably less that a 30.06 shooting 180 grain bullets. Ultimately it comes down to a personal choice. Get the one the like the best.

OK, my mind is made up....lol
Im ordering a Montana rifle company 280AI with a custom #5 contour barrel and flutes in the morning. Thanks

Ummmm....

Ditto.

I think he had his mind made up before he asked the question, then looked for responses that supported his decision.





P

There are generally three types of folks that ask questions here:

1)Those who never listen to any type of advice. They simply don't listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

2)Those who seem to think that the advice given makes sense, but do nothing about it. They’re usually very imaginative and make up all sorts of excuses for not following good advice.

3)Those who examine and analyze the advice carefully, find out that it makes a whole lot of sense, and actually embrace it.



billiam, we'll be changing your moniker to billiam#1.

If you REALLY have to ask about the differences between a 280 and a 280AI,well.....I guess you have to ask.


.....a #5 contour, on a hunting rifle, is off my radar.

Unless all your hunting is off your belly.

Looks like more folks here will have to recommend the #5 to get the OP off that kick.

Perhaps he has a gunbearer.....

Oughta tame some of that brutal AI recoil😜

Lay off the redbull and huntin' magazines as you've had too much of both.

You forgot one...

4) I have purchased or ordered something, am having second thoughts, and want someone to tell me I didn't make a mistake.

every one of you old hens has second, third and fourth thoughts over builds...or you don't have enough yet

choosing the 280AI was obviously divine intervention...:)

Skippy also wants to convert a 300WSM to a 260......

Lemme guess, mid 20's, monster truck, lives at home, camo hat w/fishhook on brim, wears work boots but don't work.

Loves Ted Nugent, has a hard on for AR's, never switches off the Sportsmans channel.

Cabelas catalog in the schitter. Wait, forgot........iPad (moms) in the schitter, Cabelas book marked.

Scope will most likely be a Vortex, lotsa X's. and turrets.

You guys remind me of growing up in down town Houston. When you would get in a fight with someone of a certain culture, you had to fight them all. They would all gang up on you in droves because they were a bunch of cowards that couldn't fight you one on one. I don't no what sparked the unfriendly or down right hateful responses, but hopefully you all feel better about yourselves now. Thanks for all of the help there tough guys!!!

You shoot "out to 600 when conditions are perfect" yet are stumped by 100ish FPS and a headstamp.

What's your "600 yard" bullet of choice?

Agreed.

I have both. I like both. As long as the meat is in the freezer it really doesn't matter what you whacked it with.

It's a given on this forum.

Maybe some of your comments caused others to question your knowledge. It happens on the internet from time to time. If it ruffles your britches, maybe you should try a knitting forum or something where opinions aren't a big part of the discussion.

Or simply "tuffen up", dude.

Lighten up, Francis. I made an observation and others agreed. You're not the first guy to ask for opinions after already making up your mind.



P

I think you made the right choice. Now you won't have to change your handle.

(personally, I thought a 7mm-08 was the best choice)

I see you say that you live in Wyoming. Thats great because I hunt in Duboise every year. I would be more than glad to give you the opportunity this fall to "toughen me up" as you put it. I have no problem passing info along this forum with you so that we could make that happen.
As for the rest of the tough guys here. I was just on the fence about my purchase because as stated before Im not a large guy, and As far as being RECOIL sensitive, I don't mean that I can't shoot heavy calibers. I can, but I probably shoot my "hunting rifles" more than most people do, because I believe in practicing with what I hunt with. As of right now I hunt with a Sako 270 WSM but after fifteen to twenty shots, I notice my groups starting to open a little. I am just getting BACK into reloading and was looking for something a little different than what I currently have. I have a 300wsm as well that I really like shooting 180's out of , and once again, after fifteen to twenty shots my groups start to open up a little. Im not an experienced reloader, but I do shoot a lot and shoot out to six hundred quite often. I don't have access to any land yet to shoot further.
On a final note, as for all the TOUGH guy comments, save them. I was simply asking some questions trying to get some friendly opinions. Sorry I ruffled so many feathers. As a guy who has practiced MMA for the last ten years I get my ass beat around on a daily basses in real life, I don't really want to have it done on the internet as well.
To all the people who tried to help, THANK YOU. I really appreciate you and your time. Sorry for all the ruckus.

The poll is in...you're still and idiot.

How did you come up with that conclusion by reading the posts here?

How far are these elk you're shooting that "the 7-08 will come up a bit short?"

I, for one, am impressed by the MMA comment.


P

Now that's some funny schit, I should guessed Monster Energy or Rock Star. And now you tell the rest of the story.



BTW, you'd be miles ahead with 1:8 twisted 260, sporter + balance and something Lapua shoved into a Lapua.

In fact, Tanner has a rig in the classifieds that would fit your bill......

16 bore......what rifle are you talking about in the classies? Thanks

Nobody's trying to act TOUGH. Pretty much everybody's trying to help. YOU came across in a way guaranteed to draw a bunch of wisecracks from the cranky old farts that frequent this place. Everybody here catches Hell, and dishes it out from time to time and everbody occasionally or frequently acts like an ass. We all think we're funny and sometimes we are. If the locker room atmosphere here rubs you the wrong way, better clear out. Otherwise, welcome.

Tanners badass rig


He's as good a dude as they come.....

I'm not that old.

Thanks 16bore!!

Agreed.

My first ".270" had ".280 Rem" stamped into the barrel. I got the .280 Rem dies and started working up loads. Sold that rifle, a nice Ruger #1, after 3 years and bought a Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather instead. Since I already had dies, the Hawkeye was also a .280 Rem rather than a .270 Win.

One thing I learned was that for many years, back before I had a chrono, I had been shooting my 7mm RM at .280 Rem velocities or just above. During those years the 7mm never let me down. With the exception of an unfortunate buck antelope that was the subject of a Barnes XLC bullet test, game went down quickly, often at the shot. (The problem with the antelope was a bullet problem, not a cartridge problem.)

While I don't have a problem with the .280 Rem AI per se, I do see it as a niche cartridge for loonies. (Full disclosure - I have a custom 6.5-06 AI, another loonie cartridge.) The gain over a standard .280 Rem is marginal and no matter claims to the contrary, it can't reach 7mm RM levels of performance. A claim has been made the .280 Rem burns less powder than the 7mm RM but that is debatable - to reach top performance the difference is negligible at best and requires compressed load densities up to 109% (better crimp those to keep the bullets from moving). In other cases the .280 Rem won't reach those levels of performance but might save 7 grains of powder or so - a 1 pound difference in consumption for every 1,000 rounds loaded (and with an even more marginal difference, if any, over standard .280 Rem performance, which burns even less powder). Do the math, 7 grains amounts to about 3 cents per cartridge and you're not getting top performance. When I have to worry about 3 cents difference in hunting cartridge costs it will be long past time for me to stop hunting.

Had that Ruger #1 been chambered for a .280 Rem AI, I would have purchased it just as quickly. After it was sold and I bought the Hawkeye it would still have been a .280 Rem rather than a .270 as I already use 7mm bullets. It is highly doubtful, though, that I would have rechambered the .280 to an AI configuration, opting instead just to buy a standard set of .280 Rem dies. My 7mm RM will do everything the .280 Rem will do and then some and I can easily download it to .280 AI or .280 velocities if desired.

Give me the standard .280 Rem. No muss, no fuss, lots more load data, easily obtainable and inexpensive brass with the proper headstamp and more factory ammo options for those times when such is needed. And performance that is more than adequate for most tasks. (And when it isn't, I wouldn't be reaching for a .280 Rem AI.)

YMMV

OP, from the responses, a lot of people here are reading you like an open book.

I think I better move before next hunting season. Now that I know the OP is into MMA, I'm feeling insignificant and vulnerable, and I'm not sure if my life is in jeopardy or if he just wants someone to drink coffee with him. Or maybe he plans to invite me for coffee and then karate chop me in the throat when I have a mouthful of coffee.


It's all pretty scary either way.

Cranky Old Fart (C.O.F.) is a state of mind.

We all do that.

Bayou....You are the one who is easy to read. Anyone who goes to your profile and looks at your posts which I have, can see there is nothing of substance there. Every one of you comments are demeaning and belittling, no matter what the subject. I can't find where you have tried to help anyone anywhere on any subject. You are a smart ass bully, and that is the exact type person I can't stand. You come on the internet and look for any opportunity to degrade someone, and why? All because momma didn't play with you enough.....oh yeah, and dad played with you a little too much possibly! Im done with you, have a great day. BTW, there is NO SUCH thing as a Karate chop, those are only in the movies. lmao
Enjoy you coffee

Several thoughts:

A) I have a 280 AI & like it a lot

B) the factory 280 Rem out there is loaded to lower pressure than similar cartridges (25-06 & 270), but hand-loaded 280 Rem gets close enought to AI velocities when loaded to like-pressures

C) 280 Rem factory ammo is nearly as difficult to find as 280 AI

D) there are different versions of the 280 AI and Nosler brass doesn't work in them all, while 280 Rem factory will fireform in all chambers

I think they're both fantastic cartridges but don't think you'll be able to tell a difference between them recoil-wise.

The only thing that needed improving in the 280 Rem was SAAMI pressure specs. Otherwise it's superfluous to AI it.

Have you taken a look at these in a side-by-side comparison in a ballistics calculator?

I was astounded at the minuscule difference between the two when I started loading them at about the same time.

There isn't an elk on the earth that'd tell the difference between them.

I'm impressed that you took the time to read everything I've posted here and from that you then have the ability to characterize a complete stranger with lewd outrageous remarks about his parents. My parents raised me just fine with no problems and I was taught to never talk down to anyone with remarks like those. I'm truly sorry that you obviously missed that in your raising.

As for the karate chop remark, I injected that to counter your silly remark about being martial arts trained; as thought that might make some of us cower in fright in your presence.

I'd buy the 280 AI if I were you just because its obvious that you're special and you seem to want a bunch of complete stranger to validate your decision.

Carry on dude. You're impressive in your own special ways.

See what happens when you forget to call "No Mothers"?

Actually, where I grew up, it was "No Muvs, Man".

I bounced between the two cartridges myself a few months ago. I decided on the 280 Rem, and a #5 contour, 27in stainless Shilen bbl. I built mine for hunting out of blinds, while using sandbags. Nope, no long walks with this rifle. I have a Ti in 7-08 for that!

Going to start working loads soon.

This.

There isn't 75 ft/sec between them if you load them to equal pressure and similar barrel lengths. I've only had both a 280 and 7 RM since 1982 and may have shot a thing or two with both. For deer size game at 'normal' deer ranges, I'll take the 280.

based on what's been said on the fire regarding the 120 grain ballistic tip. I'm going to try that bullet this year and my new M70 FWT 280 (when it arrives) . Should be able to reach 3100+ which would make it a faux 25/06. and I know that combination works well for deer

The biggest single reason I could never gin up to the 280AI, is that with a Rem 700 action (or any action long enough) you could throat a 280 long with anything from a 140 to 160 gr bullets,seat longer, and in a 24" barrel the velocities were almost indistinguishable from what a 280AI gives.

This was especially true with double based powders like MRP and the Reloder22. And of course,the 7 Rem Mag handily and routinely beat both if you wanted a step up in velocity with heavy bullets in the same action and barrel length,without pounding on the petal.

In circles of shooters I communicated with everyone"knew" this even as far back as the 1980's-90's. So very few bothered with the AI.

Among those few who did, the disappointment rate was high;they all abandoned it.

At any rate I have fired many thousands of 280AI rounds....from a 7 Rem Mag loaded less than full throttle.So the cartridge squeezed into too narrow a niche between a standard 280 and a 7 Rem Mag for me to ever bother with.

I was surprised when I got on the CF and discovered the 280AI had any traction at all. I had no idea anyone used it.

Musta been the circles I ran in....

Bob I agree 100%

One of my friends in constantly on me to punch the chamber on my 280 Mountain Rifle. I always respond I have a 7 Mag

Since, I hand load 95% of the ammo I shoot and have for decades, I saw no downside to the AI version last month when I bought my new Kimber Mountain Ascent. With the same costs and labour, I an have about 100 fps. more with my favoured 160 bullets, so, why not.

I bought my first .280Rem. in 1981, built my first custom, synthetic stocked one in 1985 and currently own three very choice mountain rifles so chambered. I know what it can do, it is my favourite standard cartridge and all my AI will do is give me even more performance and fun......end of story, IMO.

People like saying salsa.....

Its a Judy chop....get this stuff right

Gentlemen we are all products of our experiences and feed back therefrom..

Sometimes logic even sneaks into the equation.

You will be assimilated. The aura of the .280AI is too strong to resist forever.

But this one goes to "11".....

Why not a .270 Win. and avoid the hassles involved with the .280 Rem. or the .280AI. All three are great cartridges; in fact they are almost as good as the 30-06!

And there he is

Any of the .284 diameters are vastly superior to a .270...


And they're not gay.

Yup,just little sissies.

I have parked my 270










for now

I don't believe you...

You shouldn't

Whatever it is, I'm sure it will be on me before I can fend it off. Just like a thief in the night.

I'm dreading hunting season.

The prey usually does.

7mm08, 120 TTSX at 3,000 fps. I'd think that would work on elk....

Under 140 gr. they vastly ain't.

I heard a .277 130TTSX at 3,100 bounces off. Be careful.

True that.

We need to tell the 270-defunct animals all about this. I'm sure it'll make them feel better.

Yes but will it make them feel .007" better?

'cause that's what he wanted in the first place.

What else could an MMA fighter chose?

Bob, if stuff died in front of a .270 it must have been some kind of anomaly...Ive never personally heard of it happening, but theres always that chance..

Seems no consideration is ever given to the platform, but just the slight difference performance. Maybe someone's making 7# 7mags somewhere, but I've never seen one. Montana 7WSM will go 7# done. If an 8# rig is whats on the table, might as well fill the chamber to the top I say, and keep it simple.

I don't see an 8# 280 as worth the effort. If I were after 7#, then yes to the 280.

Remmie's box and throat in 7RM is perfect as far as I'm concerned.

Tikka makes a 7 Rem Mag that'll go 7# all up, not that I'd own another...

Tanner

I didn't even think about Tikka. Pretty funny actually. I'd pass on a 7# 7RM myself.


And did.

You'd have a ball with the 1:8 223 T-3 SL/SWFA10MQ, BTW

Just for grins, I googled "Is 280 AI gay?"

I got this:



I tried "Is 280 Remington gay?"

I got this:



I think I'd stick with the 280 Rem.

Lots of seamen either way.

Man, if only you could have a rifle that could shoot BOTH .280 Rem AND .280 Ack.

Wouldn't that be something?

Purefuckingenius.

That makes far too much sense and will never catch on. Now, if you neck the case down to .277 and rework it a bit, you might really have something inferior that will drive Joe Public wild.

No flies on the .270

It kills shidt dead.

But, it don't shoot 168 bergers either....

😀😀 Best recommendation in all these pages, was to just get it in 7x57. If you want more later, it's just a chamber ream to either 280, I'd guess.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mental+masturbation&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=T69eVdTNIIK1oQS8k4GQBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAw&biw=320&bih=372#imgrc=IGODaEzdCZXnQM%253A%3Bvs6cMiALV-pUHM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Frubensandthebard.com%252Fdlee%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F03%252Fmental-masturbation.png%253Fw%253D300%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Frubensandthebard.com%252Fdlee%252Fsatire%252Fdark-satire%252F%3B404%3B259

I see this time and again. A little reassurance can be a good thing. But they need to be honest with themselves.

No doubt about it. Hopefully the tongue-in-cheek intent of my comments didn't ruffle the feathers of the unwashed masses.

[u]


That's a really similar reaction the one I had when I saw all of discussion about the 7 Mashburn on the CF.

I mean a wildcat that bests the 7RM by 100fps when you run it in a full-length magnum action,and is kicked all over the school yard by the 7mm STW that uses all the action length. Well you gotta wonder, what's the point?

But,to each his own.

With a 100fps gain, better bullets and twists than the 270, I think it would be a no-brainer except for the incestuous relationship some people seem to have with the 270 (circles?).

And in a Kimber, it weighs a whole lot less than ANY 7RM on the market.

Faster is always faster, and better is always better.

And, it's SAAMI to boot!

Rationalize on.

I have a 270 for my backup rifle, in the event I should ever want to buy my ammo at Walmart

Seems as the 280 AI has gained way more traction than the Mashburn. Don't see any manufacturers chambering the Mashburn let alone anyone making factory ammo for it!!

Yep . . . but a looney can rationalize anything.

Cant argue with that logic!!

I go away for two days of bass fishing and come home to find the dopes are at it again....love all the "experience" speaking with so much authority.

Whelen if a 140 gr bullet at 3150 from a second rate factory rifle floats your boat,go for it.That from a cartridge that runs at 65,000 psi and still goes slower than a 7 Rem Mag run at lower pressures. Makes sense to me Some have fallen for this. PT Barnum was right...after 100+ years of 7mm cartridge development, I guess the factories ran out of ideas to sell more rifles, huh?

Tell me how you know so much about the Mashburn and the STW? Loaded for both?

338: Moron, you won't see anyone chambering for the Mashburn. They brought out a couple of cartridges to approximate its ballistics already...you might know about them. The 7 Rem Mag(which it beats easily) and the STW (which does nothing more than a Mashburn. (Ask anyone who has owned both.) Both came later than the Mashburn. Hint.

Whelen tell me how much game you have killed with a 270, 280, 280AI and 7 Rem Mag? I'd love to know.

You two agreeing with one another is hilarious...reminds me of Dumb and Dumber.

Rationalize on!

Well Bob, you should have kept fishing.

It's gotta be a lot cheaper hobby than taking one of the heaviest rifle actions ever designed and having some big money smith try to make it into something semi-portable.

Regarding the Mashburn and the STW, I don't need to load every cartridge ever designed to know how they will perform.

It may surprise you, but the laws of physics are incredibly reliable indicators. For the 7RM, Mashburn, and 7STW case capacity is all I need to know.

So tell me oh experienced one . . . why such a hard-on for the 280AI? I can only surmise your 270 fetish is showing.

It a SAAMI round sitting squarely between the 270/280 and the 7RM, and can be had in a 6lb rifle right off the shelf.

Or better yet, explain the tremendous virtues of the Mashburn, sitting squarely between the 7RM and the STW, A wildcat, requiring a full length magnum action to achieve the modest increase over the SAAMI 7RM.

Please educate me. Detail the tremendous Mashburn upside. Or rationalize on.

Whoa, seems this is getting a mite testy and that is too bad.

I see a LOT of the numbers game here and often by guys who should know better or by a couple who seem to get nasty in almost every thread, ( NOT Bob) and find it just sad.

I find the 280AI interesting, the Kimber MA seems a sound choice for mountain hunting and have loaded for and shot a fine custom Dana Campbell 7STW, did not care for certain aspects of the round and thus did not buy it.

I have NOT used a Mashburn, no reason to at my age, but, have found Bob's posts on it very interesting and he KNOWS his stuff on rifles.

I think that each should use what 7mm he pleases, I currently have seven fine rifles in .284 bore and three in .270, and like them all.

Fill in the blanks, correct where needed:

162 Amax

7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7STW=?
7Mash=?

I think that's pretty close to reality.

I'd finish it as follows:
7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7Mash=3,100 FPS
7STW=3,200 FPS

Basically 100 FPS steps.

It seems that to some the step from 2,800-2,900 is inconsequential, while the step from 3,000-3,100 is worth forming cases.

Just wonder why?

Turned into pretty much a Bugs Bunny vs Elmer Fudd thread on which is ultimate:. Kudos to all for your contributions to trivia. Now putting on headgear to knocked be concussed by the rationale. Argue on.

Any reason you didn't list the 7mm WSM? The .284 KING.

Reckon I forgot it. I'm sure I left off a few more.

WailingAway:

Wrong. The Mashburn will move a 160-162 at 3200-3250. Ask anyone who has one.3100 is about right for a 175...give or take a few fps. We have three that do it routinely. BTW they all have 24" barrels. We throw cases out when they get too ratty. Beretz has another.Docbill on her also has one......I could go on and on....and on.

Besides HTF would you even know since you've never loaded for one? Or a 7 STW either?

I have never seen so much wild ass "guessing" in my life.

In answer to post above, i could answer it all but it would mostly be over your head. You "read" about stuff instead of loading and shooting.You really need to shoot an load more and read less.

You and your 280AI remind me of the guy who buys a red Corvette in hopes it will help him get laid more often.

BTW, Dober is breaking in a new Mashburn barrel. He wanted me to tell you that his FF load is doing 3160 with a 139 gr ....we both thought..."Sure seems like a 280AI to me!"

If you can't get a 7-8 pound rifle up a mountain that's your problem, not mine.

At what pressure and bbl length does a 7mm08ai equal a .280rem?
Handloaded ai in a 28in bbl vs factory loaded 280 in a 22in maybe.

Hope would disagree with this conclusion, as would I, but that was with a 7-08ai and the distance was only 318 yds, and our experience is a grand total of one. I have a hard time seeing much difference with a 280.

I load for a 7-08ai and a 284 win (280 ballistic twin). I would give the 284 win a 50-75 fps edge over a similarly barreled 7-08ai loaded to similar pressures. The 7-08ai is just enough better than the standard to make it worth it. At least for some of us loonies.

Ok, if you just want to play with numbers, a long throated 7RM will do 3100-3150 with a 160 without pushing too hard, and a 7Wby will hit 3200, so we're still talking maybe 100 FPS vs. the SAAMI rounds.



That's the physics thing I was talking about. Bigger cases drive the same bullets faster I was never equating the 280AI to the Mashburn and you know it.

My only question for you is why an additional 100 FPS from the Mashburn is so much more important than the 100 FPS gained from AI'ing a 280. It's a tough question.

I love my 280AI, very accurate and kills the hell outta whatever I shoot

Why not! I've owned almost all the commercial 7s out there. Nothing wrong with any of them. the 280AI and 7-08 are my favorites. The 7-08 was also a hunting partner's favorite, so I'm looking for another right now!

+1

I haven't owned a 7STW, and only briefly owned a RUM, but the 7mm's are all good. Just pick the one that suits you.

Both the 7-08 and 280AI fit my needs very well.

If you have some actuals, post.

Bob i typically respect you and Dobers opinion but you both seem to love to hate on the 280 AI while pimping the very similar 7 Mashburn. IIRC correctly you have stated in the past that you've never loaded for or shot the .280 AI yet you dog it why?

I've shot the AI for about 10 years now and have had 4 in total, all 24" barrels and all can got +/- 3250 fps with the 140 TTSX while about .5gr book max loads. No pressure signs, minimal brass growth and tight primer pockets even after 5 firings.

Both of my current Ackleys shoot the 160 NAB over 60gr of R22 at 3025fps (Rem mountain punched out) and 3055 fps (custom pacnor).

So comparing my AI to your Mashburn both with 24" barrels and using your 3250 speed and a 300 yd zero: Your Mashburn arrives at 500yds with 2400 fps, 1975 ft/lbs and 1.2 mils of adjustment. My AI gets to 500 with 2260 fps, 1814 ft/lbs and 1.4 mils.

At 1000yds your Mashburn load is at 1700 fps, 1025 ft/lbs and 5.6 mils adjustment. My AI is doing 1590fps, has 930 ft/lbs and needs 6.2 Mils.

I doubt any animal that walks is killed better at 500 with the Mashburns extra 161 ft/lbs let alone the 95 ft/lbs advantage at 1000 yds.

Yep the Masburn beats the A.I at any range due to more powder but in the end that doesnt account fo much. That said the AI is far from the slouch you, Dober and Safariman appear to repeatedly claim it is.

With current optics technologies such as turrets the differences are pretty much mute, just a few more clicks. The A.I. though burns about 12 grs of powder less (IIRC its about 72 gr of powder in the mashburn with a 160) and will hold 4 rds down versus 3 in the 7 RM/ Mashburn/ STW etc. With my above load I can get to 1350yds on the glass alone with the SWFA mil-quad reticle currently on it.

I have no intentions of trying to make my AI's act like a 7RM. I own/ have owned 7's via 7mm-08, 280, 280AI, 7RM 7 STW, and 7 RUM. All were fun but dont do anything my AI and 7mm-08 still in my safe wont.

The AI is differnt just like the Mashburn which is why i chose it. But at the end of the day the Mashburn beats the AI by about 200 fps, the 7Rm by about 100, loses to the STW and RUM by 150-200 fps. Again all minutia and

So again i ask why so much hate for the 280 AI sir?

I didn't bring up the Mashburn...you did.

The thread was about the 280AI. I offered comments about why I never saw much use for it, for me. Not enough gain over a 280 to bother with and a 7 RM did the same things easier.

I know all about long throating the 7 Rem Mag for 160's and getting 3100-3150 with a 160,since i was doing that in the 1970's-80's and have had several rifles set up that way and probably have shot a few thousand rounds through them.And killed a pile of game with them. I know the benefits and the downsides having BTDT,

Even given that, you are pushing the cartridge....hard...to places it was not meant to be.

It also makes the cartridge a bit easier to load for and work with.But I also know the neck is short,and if throated to the 160, other bullets have a long jump to the lands. You have fewer options seating bullets.This comes as a result of the makers insistence that it fit a 30/06 length box...meantime tens of thousands are running around with H&H length actions like Rem 700's and post 64 M70's with blocked boxes (all those unreasonably heavy magnum actions that no one can lug up mountains.)

The 7 Rem mag case could use (a) a longer neck and (b) a bit more capacity. The Mashburn fills both those requirements without going over board in capacity. Bullet to land relationship is better,and case capacity is increased enough to nudge velocities into the STW range..with good case life. The Mashburn is a better design,Better mousetrap.

That said, if one wanted to,the Mashburn will also fit a 30/06 length box if you like to seat bullets deeper,just like a 300 Win Mag.If you are constrained by magazine length (like a Montana in 280AI), then you have no option but to seat deep.The reason a Rem 700 is a better "tool" for a 280/280AI.Throat accordingly to your bullet of choice.

Increasing case size to an STW does not buy you "more"...the longer case in a H&H box requires deep bullet seating.Velocities will be very much the same as a Mashburn. You may see a slight gain with the STW but it won't be much and will mostly show only with 175 gr bullets,and with a 26" or longer barrel Guys like Mashburn and Hagel worked this stuff out decades ago.I've seen it myself working with both. Maybe you missed this....Powders change but relationships remain the same.You can read and learn only so much.The rest takes shooting.



The Weatherby needs free bore. If you want that have at it.

Big Stick has lectured endlessly about this relationship between mag box constraints,throat/leade dimensions,seating arrangements with various bullets,etc. Clearly he gets it and people should listen. It isn't always about capacity....some cartridges/rifles are (to paraphrase him) a goat puck out of the box.

It isn't just about speed and capacity...it's about what's "optimum".

Optimum???? Now I'm confused.

For years you have posted your favorite load in the Mashburn was the 150 BT on 70gr R25 for 3120fps.

My standard everday load in my Ackley is the 150 TTSX over 61.5gr of R22 which nets me 3100 fps on the nose with great brass life.


You mentioned BigStick, which is where i got the idea to build an Ackley. My light one is throated for 150 TTSX, the heavy for 162 Amax at length Larry gave me. That exact 150gr load above is one i got directly from Larry.


P.S. BigStick has said countless times in his posts (preadvent of the WSM) that the 280 A.I. was the best long action 7 going and if stuck wit a magnum bolt face to go no further then 7 RM. H has also repeatedly said that he has owned a 7mm/300 (basically a Mashburn) among most other big 7's and has repeatedly called them all useless goatphukks while reiterating the accolades of the 280 A.I and 7RM.

With the advent of the SAUM and WSM'S he got 280AI/7RM performance in a short action which is where he currently is and singing those praises. Except for his long love of the 223A.I. and now the 6BR.

I'm just guessing that what he meant about mag box constraint, throating and seating isnt what you got from it. I come to this conclusion because myself and several others on this and other boards have built 280AI's set up and throated per Sticks advice which you tried to use against it in your post above.

Nobody ever felt the need to Ackleyerise the 270, so why all the fuss with the 280?

I never AI'd a caliber solely for speed, i do it for the other advantages.

Kind of like building a 7 Mashburn over a 7 RM. Lol

Regardless of claims to the contrary, case capacity matters when it comes to velocity and case life. What a smaller cartridge can do a cartridge with larger case capacity can do as well, at lower pressures. Before I got my chrono (around year 2000-2002), I was shooting my 7mm RM 160g loads at .280 to .280 AI velocities, depending on the bullet and powder. This was because I was getting case/head separations after 5 firings when using max Speer book loads (which have since been reduced). My 7mm RM has a flaw in the chamber that leaves a tiny scratch in extracted cases, allowing for a definitive determination of the number of time a case has been chambered. After backing off a tad to current levels I started getting 18 firings before I got another case-head separation. When I first got my .300WM I built .308 Win equivalent loads, then .30-06 loads, then full-house .300WM loads. The reduced loads gave longer case life, as expected, with excellent accuracy.

My own opinion is if I want to get higher velocity, get a larger case. If you hate case trimming, get an AI or get a larger case and download it to desired levels. Or get a case trimming setup that makes it less of a chore, as I have done. (I modified my "T-handle" RCBS trimmer to run off an electric drill with a nut driver, allowing me to trim around 350-375 cases per hour, including chamfering and deburring by hand, depending on the case.)

Seeking the "optimum" can be an expensive rat hole. I'm getting good case life with my .280 Rem and velocities I can live with. More importantly, I get recoil my daughters can live with. To AI that rifle would provide advantages that are outweighed by the disadvantages. But that is for me - individual mileage may vary.

Bob . . . yes, I brought up the Mashburn, only to try and understand why the 100fps Mashburn gain was so desirable to you, while the 100fps gain of the 280AI just wasn't worth it.

I still don't have the answer to that.

I understand your references to Stick's advice about COAL, mag length, and throating, but EVERY rifle is a series of compromises, and for me a lightweight mountain rifle was the goal. Not a long range rifle that will be optimum with the longest heaviest high BC bullets.

That's one of the great things about the 7mm. Bullet choices.

The 168gr. Berger Classic Hunter (.604BC) gives up very little BC to 168gr VLD (.617BC) but is designed for use in a standard magazine length. It's a very accurate bullet for me.

Another compromise is barrel life. For the Mashburn clone 7mm Practical, the developer has reported "Throat wear is approximately .1mm / .004" per 400 rounds - providing the throat is kept polished to close pores within the bore steel. Barrel life is approximately 1000 to 1200 rounds."

At the end of the day, for any rifle it's all about choosing the compromises you can live with.

I have a 270 that I like a lot, and bought it because of the rifle I found it in, and not the cartridge. Even though I have heard Stick use the term goat puck when talking about the 270 more than any other cartridge, it was a compromise I was willing to live with.

But since I appreciate "optimum", I sure wish it was a 280/280AI.

I don't owe you a "reason", nor an answer. You're entitled to "nothing". I'll try one more time to give you the courtesy of a response.

Go build rifles, load for them, and get your own answers.

I thought I hit on the reasons in previous posts,but apparently the message got lost in the chatter. Explaining things to people with utterly no experience is a waste of time,especially if they aren't in the business of listening and don't want to learn for themselves but expect everyone on here to give them answers.

The differences in velocity are greater than 100 fps with bullets of 160 gr and up,even though you insist on using that number despite having been corrected a number of times now.They have a word for that...I call it "stupid".

Not only does it handily beat a 7 Rem Mag in velocity,it is an easier cartridge to work with, much more predictable rifle to rifle, much more uniform in the amount of powder it burns for velocity delivered. It also "fits' a M70 or Remington 700 "better".

In short, across the board, it's a "better" belted magnum 7mm than the 7 Rem Mag.Probably better than other 7mm's of greater capacity as well. There are other belted 7mm's,others of greater capacity. They don't interest me for a variety of reasons.

Unless you get down and load the thing yourself you may want to question this,especially if you have an agenda to prove me "wrong",or you want to be convinced..

So I suggest that you contact Dober,Docbill, Dave 7mm, and Sergeant Beretz on here. They all have Mashburns,and will corroborate what i say.

Dave 7mm was done with load development and a ladder test at 500 yards in two range sessions with a 150 BT at 3300 fps. He described the cartridge as (paraphrased}"easy, a big easy going slob to work up loads, hit velocity,and keep it running consistently,unlike the STW which was a PITA".

Beretz punched out a PF M70 7 rem Mag to Mashburn; was "done" with load development in under 20 rounds with a 160 AB at 3200 fps. You could cover groups with a dime.Ask him.

Others have them. They don't post on here about it on because they have less patience than I do answering inane questions.

As to nobody building them, when I built mine 5 years ago, one phone call and I had dies from RCBS in 3-4 days. Today you can't find them over the counter. Wait times are measured in months. Ak NYrifleman and GuideGun...they had to wayt 2-3 months.

Someone is building them but I don't know them all.

Don't bother me anymore with your silly questions. I'm all out of patience with you.

Lots of words to say I have no answer.

Why didn't you just say I'm a 270 slut and leave it at that.

BTW, 100fps came from your numbers, not mine. But 50fps may be more accurate with the 7Wby accounted for.

Have a nice day. GFY

Just curious as to what bbl length and pressure allows a 7mm-08ai to equal the .280rem with 162gr class bullets.
Unless you are using magic powder, then it all works out.

Or shooting over a unichrony.

If phucqers could grasp ahold of this idea, the 'fire wouldn't be the same.

Which part of "fill in the blanks or correct where needed" do you not understand?

Not for 162g AMAX but Hodgdon pressure and velocity data. All with 24" barrels:

7mm-08, 140g, 2868fps, 49,800 CUP
7mm-08, 160g, 2690fps, 48,900 CUP

.280 Rem, 140g, 2983fps, 58,600 PSI
.280 Rem, 160g, 2773fps, 56,900 PSI

.284 Win, 140g, 3075fps, 51,200 CUP
.284 Win, 160g, 2810fps, 52,000 CUP

.280 AI, 140g, 3025fps, 60,000 PSI
.280 AI, 160g, 2872fps, 61,700 PSI

7mm RM, 140g, 3175fps, 59,900 PSI
7mm RM, 160g, 2948fps, 58,000 PSI

7mm STW, 140g, 3347fps, 54,300 CUP
7mm STW, 160g, 3085fps, 54,200 CUP

This is only my personal opinion between the 280 and 280 AI. Take it for what its worth.....not much.

I've noted over the years that I've come to appreciate the functions of feed and ejection quite a bit. I've noted with the 280 AI that I have that while yes it will feed it is not optimal in my opinion. Physics is physics and a straighter case wall design does have more to overcome than a tapered case wall design. It is not only my opinion as feeding of the 280 AI has been duelly noted by many more than just I on the fire.

Just my opinion but I will take a 270 or 280 for the feeding virtues over a 280 AI any day.

The performance between a 270,280, or 280 AI is indistinguishable.

The feeding virtues are not.

Just my opinion

Shod

No dog in the 280 / 280 Ackley fight. I do have 7mm MSM, 7mm WSM, and 7x57 though.

The MSM has been a piece of cake to work with. FF loads do right around 3200 in my rifle.



160 ABs run right at 3200 for me.



They shoot pretty decent for me.








Same for the 160 PT's



175 PT's are running around 3050 or so for me.

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/al...-99AE-A5B2ED5D5FE8_zps5vmcgsf3.jpg[/img]

Still sorting the seating depth out a little

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/al...-A1AD-E6D689B30A94_zpsumw6oa8e.jpg[/img]



Just an old beater M70 XTR I had punched out..

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/al...-88B6-81F27EA81BDE_zpsijdferhq.jpg[/img]


This rifle has been pretty easy to work with. The 280/280 Improved and WSM are all great cartridges, but the MSM has been pretty easy to work with all in all. Responded pretty well across the board and seems to be an easy deal. I guess to me, it feels like a 7mm Rem Mag Improved. Longer neck, more case space and cases seem to last forever. I am crowding on 10 firings of my original 50 Hornady cases.

It's as good as an Elvis Burger with your choice of Peanut Butter.

beretzs . . . thanks for posting this.

It gives me a chance to clarify my postings on this.

I think the Mashburn is a great round, and I hope to work with one someday.

I personally would far prefer it to any 7 magnum with greater case capacity (STW, RUM, etc.)

The only reason I even posted on this thread is because another member seems obsessed with perpetually dissing the 280AI, while never missing a chance to sing the praises of the 7 Mashburn.

Everybody knows that the two rounds are not equivalent, with the Mashburn having much greater capacity.

But both rounds offer advantages over very similar (and popular) rounds, and the conclusion that one is useless while the other is somehow indispensable needs to be defended. That's why I brought up the Mashburn. Not due to a dislike for what appears to be a very fine cartridge.

I realize that in this case it just comes down to a certain member's love affair with the 270. I imagine that he breathed a sigh of relief when the 280 was underloaded at it's birth. Disregarding all of the measurables favoring the 280 was made much easier.

The SAAMI 280AI changed the situation, and for him I think it's a hard pill to swallow.

Great post Whelen,

Not everyone seems to like the Ackley IMP rounds. I have had a loaded for four of them 223, 22-250, 30-06 and 338-06 all gained appx 100 fps from the factory chambering.From the work I've done with them, they do work better with heavy for caliber bullets.Some took time to find the right powder and bullet combo. The 06 to me was the easiest to find max gain .Bullets were 180 grain
Ackleys arent for everyone, but if you looking for a little boost its a great place to start plus your eliminating the trimming stage of reloading and still have the advantage of shooting factory ammo

Last resort response. Not surprising considering the source.

I can usually gauge a guy's experience in BG hunting by his reaction to the 270(and the 30/06). When it comes to killing game animals, he may have other favorites,might not even use a 270; but will quickly admit it's a great cartridge and a solid and reliable killer of BG animals. The smart guys know this through personal experience.

But when the guy trashes the 270 and proclaims it worthless as a BG cartridge,and tries to argue that a 280 or something similar is a vastly superior choice, I suspect that he has not killed much game, seen very much killed himself,and has not "been around" much. I am usually right.

I think I know what category you fall in.


Might surprise you but I'm not a "270 slut", as you put it. And I have hunted a lot of North America with......lemme see....the 270 ( of course).7/08,7x57,280,7 Rem Mag, 7mm Dakota, 7mm Mashburn, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,25/06, 30/06,257 Roberts....and likely some others I can't recall..Or maybe did not kill with but did do the prep work.

If you want to toss in the cartridges I've seen used by others, the list would swell by a few more.



You?


I have found that I am about as successful with one thing as the other.And results are pretty much the same no matter what I hunt with. Point being...junior...I've used a lot of them,as have many other experienced folks on here.

I actually post a lot on the 270 because I know it aggravates people like you.

So...a 270 fetish? Nope....i don't have cartridge fetishes. I can hunt with anything i want,and have.

I have answered your questions about the Mashburn several times. But you want to ignore the answer because you are more interested in arguing with me than you are in paying attention to what I've explained to you.In other words, your juvenile ego has gotten in the way of absorbing any information that I've tried to provide. You don't want to hear answers. You want to argue.

This is not uncommon on here. You are a good example of it.

Listen to Beretz. He will explain it. You might learn something, Muffin.

Thanks Bobin

You're welcome.

No flies on a 270 pushing a 129 LRX at 3,100. Especially since it beats a 280 pushing 120 TTSX at 3,200 and 140 TTSX at 3,000.

But those are just numbers.......

Geezuz, this has been quite the thread, still prefer my .270s..280s inc. my new Kimber MA-.280AI to any other rounds for MOST BC hunting and expect I always shall.

WTF, after 57 years of usually very intense shooting, into my 51st hunting season and all that entails, I find my Kimber feeds my handloads well and I have come to just like the .280AI.....which, is all that matters to me!

SNAP nothing wrong with a 280AI. Stuck between a 280 and a 7 Rem Mag is a good place to be.Obviously, it's a good cartridge.How could it not be with ballistics comparable to the other two?

But say on here that you never had a reason to buy one ,because you had a 280, and a 7 Rem Mag (everything all around it), and it is just duplicitous,and everyone thinks you hate it.

Nope....if you've used a 280, or a 7 Rem mag,to kill any number of animals, at some point in the ballistic life of both, you've used a 280AI....just depends a bit on distance.Any ballistic table tells us that.

This is the modern difficulty with having so many cartridges to choose from,and having so many so closely bunched together in the same caliber,in terms of their velocity. In comparing them,you bump into quantum over lap.

In answer to the OP's question, I don't think it matters whether you get a 280, or a 280AI. I'd pay more attention to which rifle I liked chambered for either one.

Funniest of all is OP didn't mention a single bullet.

As always, Bob, my friend you make a sound point, I just like to try various cartridges in different rifles as I am a total "nut" about guns.

I almost bought a mint, cherry STS Classic-70 two years back due to your influence and would have had it customized and punched to 7Mash-only age and serious gimpiness prevented this.

For some BC hunting, I cannot envision a better round than the Mashburn with 160 premium slugs as for some a .338WM-250NP is ideal and the .270Win.-.280Rem-.280AI is perfect for most.

Gives us stuff to stay penniless with and keeps us out of the taverns, eh!

Same here. I've got enough overlap that I really could get rid of most of my stuff and still never miss a beat hunting. I do enjoy trying different cartridges, just cause I can.

Heck, since I got the Mashburn, I could get rid of my little 7mm WSM, but I do happen to have a bunch of 140 grain BBC's that might work out pretty well in that one. I'll save the 160 and 175 BBC's for the MSM.

Sorry to derail this thread. I am pretty sure if most of us were blindfolded, handed a decent rifle, zeroed 3" high at 100 yards, 95% would never miss a beat with anything from a 7-08 to a 300 RUM..

I like the 7x57 because I know what it can do. I also own a 280AI and can appreciate it may offer a little more in velocity though I am not sure it would perform notably moreso. My 7mm Remington is the rifle that challenges validity for my AI as it (meaning the AI) is very similar to the .30/06 in velocity for like bullet weights.

For me, the '06 with heavier bullets is more the gap filler in my rack so the 200fps the Rem has over the AI will likely kill it off for me.

It's interesting how the 30/06 is the cartridge everything is compared to, yet how few actually use one.

Agreed, it's the most recommended, least used chambering in existence. The perfect cartridge for someone else.

I wouldn't say "least used", but certainly least considered by loonies.

I'm somewhat of a loonie, which is why I have one of everything except a .30-06.

But I have three of those, down from four last year. (Had a .30-06 that wouldn't shoot to my satisfaction.)

Any one of the .30-06 rifles would be all I ever need, sell everything else. Even though I've used .30-06s more than any other cartridge the last few years, selling the others isn't going to happen any time soon.

I'm down to 223,260,and 7mag. Not that I really need the 7, but it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

If the 30-06 is the least used chambering in existence, dare I ask what is the most used?

Rhetorical question, or do you really need me to spell it out for you?

With a 6.5-06AI, .280 Rem and 7mm RM, I really feel like I need to plug the holes. Just can't figure out if what I need most/next is a .264 Win Mag, .270 Win, .270 WSM or WBY, 7mm-08, 7x57, or .280 AI.

Or maybe a 7mm Rem Express or 7mm-06 ...


(Full disclosure: Actually, a Ruger #1 in .45-70 is highest on the list and I don't plan on that any time soon.)

If you already have a 280 Rem, will getting a 7MM Rem Express fill a cartridge gap or a name gap?

the 30/06 is the least used? Good to know...

Oh damn! Now I have to change my forum name. Call the gunsmith! Stop the build! Hey,it must be true. I saw it on the internet.

155 Scenars at 3,000 FPS bounce off paper.

Definitely a cartridge gap.

The .280 Rem is older and somewhat passé compared to the newer 7mm Rem Express.

Gee, I didn't know that. Thanks for the insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_Remington

I wonder why there's no 7mm Express Ackley Improved? That would be worth a build for sure.

Or maybe a 7mm Express Ackley Improved Mashburn? Nothing passe' about that and it would be totally unique.

Nothing new there. And, in any case and after much consideration, I think I should get a 7mm-06 instead. If I AI it I could use Nosler .280AI brass without any need for fire-forming...

7mm Express Ackley Improved Mashburn Magnum +P.Shank would have to be 6" long so it will all fit.

Makes a fella want a lowly 270 and say phuqq it.

LOL....!! But that's passe'.

In the honorable words of Aretha Franklin, "Don' choo blaspheme in here!"

I'll take 4 fried chickens and a Coke....



Might be a little small, but stuff is more similar than different

To hell with it - I think I'll keep what I have and just use continue using premium bullets.

Hasn't John Barsness (Mule Deer) claimed premium bullets always work better and the more expensive they are the better they work and that they will always make up for poor placement? I tend to prefer AccuBond, TTSX and North Fork but maybe I need to step up my game and look for bullets that cost more.

Yeah, I'm sure he said that.

Get the AI if you like to reload and don't like trimming brass. Otherwise, don't.

All you guys can shut up, any living creature on gods earth couldnt care less how efficient one cartridge is better than the other, the matter if the fact is they sure hell dont want to get hit by one, .280, .280 AI, 7 mashburn blah blah blah. Nail on the coffin, nuff said. Put it where it counts.

So saith the Lord.

Wow. You don't read this forum much.

Besides the looneys! LoL