Finally got a chance to shoot my LAW 280ai yesterday....



Here is my objective view on the rifle.....

Finish, weight, balance, trigger, overall appearance I would rate as excellent.

Fit, crap....so mine also had the now infamous "LAW stock issue".

Not willing to spend more money to send it back and take a chance on getting it lost or destroyed, I did what I always do to a rifle that has bedding issues..... Fix it myself.

F the warranty....

To be fair fit is really good except the barrel shank was hitting the right side of the stock,while the left side was floating.Barrel gap to stock was perfect, except for the shank issue.

So out came the sandpaper and .5 hour later.....perfect fit. Now the barrel is free floating all the way to the recoil lug.

Honestly, no excuse on LAWs part to have something leave the factory with that bad of a fit issue. Also, if they would have bedded these, they would not be having the returns they apparently are having with the 300wins and 280ai.

So I gave the LAW the acid test....150 ballistic tips and h4831sc. If won't shoot that, it ain't going to shoot....

I also had a hand full of Nosler factory 280ai 140ab.

My starting load of 58 h4831, 150bt, Fed 210, and virgin Nosler hulls went into a nice .5" cloverleaf.... Nice.

Figured the groups would get worse as i worked up and they did. Opened up, but only to about 1.3". Not bad.

The factory 140ab went into 1.25", 5 shot group. 4 of the 5 were under 1". Velocity was mid 3000s.

So overall, I think she'll be a shooter with the right loads.

Pretty happy....

Tony

Great report Tony, I am considering one of these but i think i will hold off till next Summer before I pull the trigger, hopefully by then LAW will have their QC issues taken care of, I am also hoping by then the threaded barrel on the Professional Model will be optional........Good luck with your new rifle.......Hb

Good info. Good post.

Smart idea to handle it yourself. Who know what they would have done and how long it would have taken.

Happy it worked out Tony!

They are really nice looking rifles.

Thanks all.

Should also add that the M704 action is really nice.

So far I am pretty happy with the rifle. Still debating whether to bed it or not, but that .5" group has me thinking I'll see how consistent it is before making that decision.

As a rule, I bed all my rifles if they aren't.

We'll see.

I really want this thing to shoot the 150 SSII. Going to try 7828 next with the sciroccos....

Tony

Good report, my 280AI (not a LAW) loves 7828 and 140 NBT.

Thanks for the tip....

How about anyone that has some, post up some pet loads for the 280ai...

Thanks.

Tony

Sounds like every other rifle I've owned.

Good info. Thanks.




Travis

Exactly

Ditto on my end....

But, I didn't expect to find a bedding issue with this one.

Not a big deal for me, because I bed my rifles myself.

I would think most people don't do that.

To me, that makes the the LAW just another production rifle....

Tony

Sent you a PM

Yes.... Bedding block in front and pillar at the tang.

Tony

Mine (280AI Professional) has been back to the factory twice now. This last trip they said they did a bedding job. Just got it back yesterday and thing still sucks. No consistency whatsoever. Best I could do was just under 2" groups at 100... some groups were 6"+. Very disappointed in the performance of this rifle. Looks and handles great, but it looks like I'm going to have to stick more money into this damn thing before it is of any use to us.

You sure you don't have a mount or scope issue ?

Did they shoot it before they sent it back?

If so, how did it shoot?

They are using pretty good components in these things, they should shoot.

Although it would be nice to know who's barrel they are using.

Tony

They shot it. Some groups barely went moa and some were in the 1.5 moa range... they said they shot it the first time it was sent back though too. Having my doubts. This thing is seriously all over the place. The first trip back they said the trigger guard holes needed to be reamed out because they were too tight and binding on the screws. No idea what is wrong with this thing, but I've had about as much grief as I can take with it. Now it looks like I get to spend more money taking it to a local smith to trouble shoot an issue the manufacturer couldn't fix.

Odin,

Sorry to hear of your troubles with this rifle. I hope your smith can get it sorted for you. It sucks, but that's probably your best option at this point.

Please keep us posted.

Regards,

David

Appreciate that David and thanks for pointing me towards this thread.

No problem, It sucks to have a rifle that has problems, especially when the manufacturer won't take care of it. It could still be a good rifle for you if you get it sorted.

How would you feel about popping the action out of the stock and taking a few pictures? I know LAW should have done this, but seeing how you seem to be on your own.... Is the magazine binding? Are the action screws too long?

David

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8495340/1

These tips will also work for rifles that aren't Kimbers...

David

Interesting reading... need to get my comfort level up on this kind of stuff. Hate for this rifle to be my first go at it, if you know what I mean. Thanks for the info!

If your gunsmith finds a obvious problem, I'd send the bill to LAW. Absolutely no reason why you should have to put up with a problem like this with a rifle that has a considerable price tag that they claim to guarantee.

You think Kimber would've paid the bills on all the crap Montana's that were fixed by gunsmiths?

Doubt it, but they don't guarantee anything either.

I had Kenny Jarrett rework and rebarrel a Kimber some years ago. While visiting the shop Kenny shared that he had been in discussions with Kimber about him consulting them on building better barrels. Evidently they didn't like Kennys consulting rate and it didn't go any further... But while visiting he did see that the machine that lapped barrels was set up to do it in 3-4" increments... The machine was essentially lapping in steps every 3-4". Doesn't take an expensive consultant to figure out that one... Wonder if they ever did

They dont?

http://www.kimberamerica.com/montana

Well, I've never seen that before so I learned something new today. When did they start offering a sub-moa guarantee ? They are designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99" or less...?



" Kimber rifles are designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99” or less at 100 yards by a highly skilled and qualified shooter using factory ammunition" .

Nice weasel words.

Mine or theirs..

Kimber's of course.

I actually like their wording...you know you've seen a bunch of trigger yankers, scopes crooked, terrible form, etc...and then they wonder why is doesn't shoot SUB MOA...lol

It's the "designed to" phrase as well.

Better: "This rifle will produce sub-moa groups for a shooter who has his **** together."

My Hart rifle rest was designed to help rifles shoot small groups......

Well, I don't know what to tell you cause this gentlemen was told this......maybe he has a pre-promise rifle

That sounds like what Brown Precision told me a few years ago.

Maybe it is a "pre-promise" rifle. I'm not sure when Kimber started it, I noticed it a while back after they re-did their website. I've always "liked" Kimbers but never had the desire to own one so never paid much attention to them.

I like Kimber's too. Had a wood stocked 7-08 shot good for what it is. Don't know when they added that vague "Accuracy Standard" but it doesn't sound like much of a leg to stand on if your Kimber shoots crappy.

A few pics... There appears to be spot where friction looks to be wearing off the finish.

Please let me know if you see anything obvious. This company won't even return calls or emails anymore. I've heard the same from another who was experiencing issues as well.

My guess would be that an action screw is possibly bottoming out and preventing the rifle from getting held firmly in the stock.


I'm no 'smith though. Its just kind of a logic thing.

I'd check the screws and then re-bed.

There does appear to be slight signs of friction on the front action screw.

I agree on the front action screw, looks like the rifle is moving around in the stock a lot.

Can you see rubbing from the front action screw bottoming out in the screw hole?

David

Odin- That bedding job they did is IMO Crap! Id cut it out and rebed it all including bedding the tang.
Also check to see that the mag box isnt binding when everything is tightened down.

Yep all kinds of stress rubs , front screw is probably too long

Good news. Legendary Arms Works agreed to give me a full refund of my money today. Glad to have my money back, but would much rather had that rifle in a copy that shot well. Such a nice rifle in the hand and a company I really wanted to support (veteran owned). Maybe some other day after they've worked out all of the kinks.

To all of you that offered comment, thanks for all of the help.

Now what to buy to replace it?

Another range day coming up on Friday.... Film at 11....

Tony

Best of Luck to you!

David

Another successful trip to the range with the LAW.....

Rl22 and 150 Scirocco's.. Nice group... About 3050.....

Other than the minor bedding issue I fixed, no complaints on the rifle, or how it shoots.

I'll probably Hunt with it as is, then bed it over the winter.

Too bad LAW didn't bed it....it would have been perfect out of the box.

Hope it wasn't a bean counter decision to not bed these... If it was, it was a poor decision.

Be that as it may, I'm happy with it.

Tony

hicountry,

Over the weekend, I saw one of these rifles in a local gun shop. After handling it, I was unable to leave the store without it....Then, I found all of the threads online about the accuracy issues and reported poor customer service.

I'm torn on what to do at this point, but I really want this rifle to shoot and don't have a lot of time to "make" it shoot (that's why I purchased a rifle in the class I thought I had). Mine appears to have the same issue that yours did with a stock pressure pt near the barrel shank. Did you do anything to yours other than sand this out such that the barrel is floated clear back?

As I mentioned before, I really want this rifle to shoot and am torn on whether to fiddle with it or just return it.

The pre-production salesman samples we're individually pillar bedded. I took the sample out of the stock and examined everything. The bedding job on the sample I saw was phenomenal.

I later found out the production rifles would utilize bedding blocks. Honestly, it think individual bedding would have eliminated most of their issues...

They skipped bedding for $1800 bucks? What a shock!

That's OK. They like to bed some Kimbers on top of the mag box for $1300.

Being in business, especially a manufacturing related business, I've seen the wrong corners attempted to be cut so many times as to make me vomit.

It takes a backbone and a strong will to stand up to the bean counters that will wreck your product with their cost saving schemes.

Saving a buck that results in putting out a flawed product happens more than you'd think.

Your reputation is established as soon as the consumer can form an opinion.

Some companies are willing to gamble with that in order to save a dollar.

Once ruined, it's hard to regain. When going into production, to many can't see the forest for the trees.

Bottom liners. Avoid them- They're Investor and not customer driven.

Killbux,

Only sanded the area around the bbl shank, and nothing else. Mine is now free floating back to the recoil lug.

After the season is over, I'll bed it.Mine is shooting pretty good as is, but I I'll still bed it.

JohnMoses,

I couldn't agree with you more.

LAW snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by cutting corners.

UFB....

Still, it is a pretty nice rifle, and I am very happy with mine.

Tony

Hopefully they'll get into the business of just selling the actions. I think I could like one of those.

Love the action, and overall weight and balance.

I've had several bansner stocks, and really like the ergos.

LAW has a really nice platform, all they need to do is tweak the execution.

Tony

Exactly. Nice components. Lousy assembly. Same old story.

Anyone else have any hands on experience?? I'll be mounting a scope tonight and, with luck, shooting this weekend.

Ok, I lied. I said I would wait until the winter to bed my LAW, but upon further review, I could not take it....LOL

All I have to say is stress, stress, stress (No not me) in the bedding. Tang especially flexed down quit a bit, as did the stock fore-end, as you tightened the guard screws.

So I'll put my money where my mouth is, and took some pics of the process :


You can see where the shank was hitting the stock, on the right side....


Stock all prepped and ready for epoxy



All gooped up....



Action set in, centered using a bedding bolt, with electrical tape wrapped around the shank so that it is a tight fit in the front guard screw hole (self centers front guard screw in hole)

Also, I cut index card shims in order to center the BBL in the BBL channel. This also sets the action to the desired height in the stock, and also seats the tang area. I may also bed the tang, after the recoil lug area cures. I always check the tang area after the recoil lug are if bedded. I.e., I bed in a two step process...if the tang needs it..

I'll take more pics after I pop it out.

Tony

PS...forgot to add...I use Johnson's Paste Floor Wax as a release agent.

Never have any problems popping the action out.

Tony

These are the type of threads that make the "Fire" great. Can't tell you how many things I have researched here with the search function. Watching the startup of the LAW rifles has been interesting and a bit disappointing to say the least. Looking forward to the progress of this project.

Ok, so here is today's lesson in abject stupidity....

I used $8 worth of epoxy, and it will take about an hour total to bed the stock.

Lets say for schits and grins that LAW pays a tech $50/hr to bed each rifle.

So for $58(add it to the price stupid bean counter, if you are that way), LAW would be selling a first rate, ready out of the box, custom grade rifle for about $1600.

But instead, someone took a stupid pill.....

WTF, is it that hard to see this, or is it just me ?

Tony

Took my new LAW out to the range Saturday morning. I have to start by saying that the Southeast Wyoming wind was "up" Saturday (steady 20-25mph with gusts over 40...), but with the days getting shorter, I have to take every opportunity I get. I loosely followed Lilja's barrel break-in procedure (clean after every shot for the first five, clean after each three-shot group until 20 have been fired, then shoot 5-shot groups) using Butch's to scrub the bore. Because of the wind, I sighted in at 50 yards after bore-sighting. I was also using factory Nosler loaded ammunition so as not to void the warranty... The shoot, clean, shoot, clean groups with 140 AB's showed real promise at 50 yards; however, even at 50 yards, it was pretty apparent that the gun did not like the factory loaded 150 LRAB's. Once I got to the 5 shot group part of the barrel break-in, I moved the target to 100 yards. I wasn't pleased with the results, BUT I realize the wind was blowing and will try to take advantage of the next "non-windy" day here (although, I may have to wait for July for that...) to give it a fair shake. What I did notice that I thought was interesting was the fact that MOST of the dispersion in the groups at 100 yards was vertical with little horizontal dispersion.

Nonetheless, I will try once more under more favorable conditions. If it does not shoot MOA, I will send it back to LAW. I didn't purchase a rifle for this much money to bed it myself.

my pre-production 308 Closer shoots under MOA and I love everything about it EXCEPT the timney trigger pull is EIGHT pounds (no creep). how that happened and left the factory I have no idea. so for simplicity I'll pay a smith to adjust it since I don't have confidence to fiddle with it myself despite helpful advice.
scratch using it in nebraska this season as i'd hoped

Hopefully Mr. Mailman will deliver my Professional 28 Nosler tomorrow...

Sounds good Bud, let us know how it shoots.....

Tony

Under good shooting conditions, I took the LAW 280 AI to the range again. I was shooting factory Nosler ammunition as I've found no other mfg that produces it. The rifle does not like the Trophy Grade 150 LRAB. A three shot group was right at 3.0" at 100 yards and shooting another two opened it to about 5.25". The best group of the day was shooting Nosler Trophy Grade 140 Accubonds. Three shots were roughly 1.75" and a fourth (touching shot no 1) opened it up to about 1.8". I realize I could probably tighten it up on my own (sanding the stock and bedding like hicountry and shooting hand loads), but this one is going back to, hopefully, be bedded at the factory. I will keep you all apprised of my progress.

Keep buyin' 'em boys!

Truly a shame.

hicountry-

Have you shot yours again after bedding?

Yes.....just this am....

Rifle is real picky. When you find an accuracy mode, it shoots pretty well, when you're out, it opens up.

Beginning to see it likes h4831, and not so much 7828. ..


61 and 62 h4831, 140ab....

7828 and 150bt shot 1.5" or so....

Tony

What velocity you getting from the 140's? Shot/chronoed any 160's?

3050 ish....that group is just under.7"....

Haven't tried 160s yet.

Tony

What is the proper trim-to length for the 28 Nosler case ?
I opened a new box of 25 today and I'll be amazed if there are two cases of the same length, several have dented necks.
Case length varies from 2.560" to 2.595 ".
So I am resizing all and then going to trim to same length but I cannot find a trim length measurement.