Im looking to get another Tikka T3 in either a 223 or 243. The rifle will be used by me for groundhog hunting, maybe fall turkey. I would like to also make it available as a small (non-intimidating) deer rifle for my kids in a few years. I have limited experience with smaller calibers, having only killed one deer with anything smaller than a 30-06 (a .257 Roberts), whats the real world killing power difference between the two? Realizing that kids tend to get excited when the deer actually show-up and shot placement might not be perfect despite many .22 sessions. This leads me to the .243 or even 7mm-08 camp.

but...I was hoping to also have a rifle for summer groundhogs. I hunt smaller fields is semi-populated rural areas. Ive used a 17 HMR the last couple years which is nice and quiet, but lacks the oomph sometimes. Whats the difference in the report of the 223 vs. 243, if any?

Over the past 20+ years, my family has killed several dozen KY WT's with .243's loaded with 95gr Nosler partitions. The older grand kids are now graduating up to .270's. But most of them started with .243's...

Should be able to launch 55gr NBT's in the summer at the same speed as a .220 Swift...

I would vote for the .243. Works great on varmints and gives more killing power on bigger game. The .243 will also shoot flatter and buck the wind better than the .223.

It will have more recoil than a .223. A .243 is loud like all centerfire rifles but not any louder than others. The .223 may be a bit "quieter" but that is probably more dependent on the ear of the beholder than anything.


I have a T3 .243 that is spectacularly with the Nosler 70 and 95 grain Ballistic Tip. That bullet combination would work famously for what you need.

.223 without a doubt.

Hit poorly with either and you have a mess. .243 isn't going to change that.




Dave

While I hate to disagree with deflave, I would opt for the .243.. We have killed deer with both, but not in Pa. Unless you have access to some very private ground, I want more rifle for hunting there.. I suppose I have shot 50+ deer in Pa. Most of my shots have been at animals moving through heavy brush, or at the last minutes of light in the evening, or crossing an old strip mine and they were shot at long range.. I feel for the conditions MOST HUNTERS face in Pa., you need more gun than a .223.. the 7mm-08 would be better..

I hear ya about the Pa hunting conditions, hence the hesitation to stop using a 30 cal for my own hunting. I was thinking about this smaller caliber being used in the early Oct antler-less youth season more than the general than the gen firearms.

The .243 has been pioneered as a dual-purpose rifle which is what I am wanting. Guess I could get the kids a 6.5X55 or 7-08, and a dedicated varmint rig like a 222 or hornet (dont want the farmers feeling like they are in the Anbar province).

Then they'd start growing opium poppy...

I've shot deer with rifles from .243 to .45-70, and I can't tell a difference in the reaction. They run about the same distance if lung-shot, and fall if you break running gear.

We are not allowed to use a .223. They just let us start hunting on Sunday. And, You cannot carry concealed here, anymore. That's all the hints on VA gov.'s apparent intelligence.

Blood trails are another thing, the bigger calibers doing better but the difference between a .223 and .243 are going to be negligible there, too.

Tom, Your idea of a 6.5 or 7mm-08 and a .222 is a good one .. That is probably the way I would go, or a .223 either might work in the early doe hunt..

Shooting lots = marksmanship.

Shooting little = poor marksmanship.



Travis

.223 is fine if legal, It isn't legal in CO so I'd have to choose the .243 for here.

When MT started the apprentice hunting program, I went out and bought a Tikka T3 compact in .243 for the boy to start out with. I put a vortex diamondback scope on it for now. He shot it all summer, he was shooting my RAR .223, but I just wanted a little more hit on these deer. I didn't own a .243 so it was a great excuse to buy a rifle.
He shoots it well, I can shoot it well, the stock isn't too short for me. I think it's a great rifle. I pack it around looking wolves.

And he ended up shooting the smallest 4 point whitie in Flathead County with it.

223 is the only sane answer here, for a very light-recoiling and quieter report. The 243 is neither of those, in comparison.

As to poor shot placement, yes it sometimes happens. The 243 isn't going to make any difference over a well-loaded 223 in that scenario for deer.

And yes, we've used both chamberings on deer. The 243 adds flat range, but not "power" per se.

Definitely seems to be 2 schools of thought here...

Can the 243 be loaded down for varmints or a quieter report?

It's always seemed to me that 223 is "noisier" than a 243. Maybe not "louder", but more of a CRACK or something....

From small 8 year old boys to 32 year old boys the 223/223AI's get the most trigger time. We shoot stuff with them year around and have zero problems with deer.

Seems the Tikka's in 222 are like Hens Teeth in the Lite config. Only a couple Forest models on GB. Prolly get me a .223 for now then add a 6.5 or 7-08 in a couple years when the kids are ready. My son still has a hell of a time getting a good sight picture with my 22. Hate to rush him and have it turn out bad.

If you reload, either one will work. If you don't reload I'd get the 243.

243, Hands down for deer. If you don't reload, it's hard to beat a 100 grain Factory Remington Coreloct.
But if you go with the .223, I'd recommend the 64 grain Nosler Partition for deer.

223 is more than enough gun. Plus, if you are willing to practice with the kids, they (the kids) will be able to shoot more with the 223 while still having fun which will make them better, more confident shooters which will result in better, cleaner kills.

Another vote for the .223....duh.....

I was in this exact boat last year. My daughter was 13.
Got a tikka 223 and never looked back.
I also got a youth stock for when time is right for my 7 and 4 year old.
The fact I can buy cheap ammo and my kid can get a lot of trigger time is better than higher powered rifle she might shy away from. And I got a coyote gun out of it at he same time.
My tikka has 1-10, but seems like new ones have 1-8 so you can shoot heavier loads.
I plan on tsx anyways.
Painted our stock in desert tan.

I am a .243 fan that said when I started my nephew shooting and hunting it was a no brainer for the .223 because he could shoot it a ton. Mine are 1/9 twist so we shot 55gr anything for practice and hunted with the 70gr Speer and the 55gr TTSX.

Something to ponder...this little dude is 8 yrs old. Has a T3 22-250 that I worked on the stock to make it usable for him. He isn't in love with the recoil so as to not give him any early bad habits I hooked him up with a RAR .223 and below are his spoils from this year...oh yeah, he loves his fixed 6 super chicken as well!

Are the youth stocks readily available?

I don't know, but I posted a wtb add here on 24 and had some one sell me a brand new one.
Turned out my 13 year old prefers the regular length stock and I'll just have the youth for later.

243

I believe PA has gone to a "any centerfire" minimum for firearm deer season. I think the 223 or 243 would serve just fine with proper placement of course. I had an uncle use a 22-250 for the same situation.

There needs to be a sticky thread of .22 CF big game kills, starting w the ark scenarshooter filled with his .220 Swift.

Cool picture and tell the young man good job!

Like I said earlier if it's legal start with a .223, if not .243 (or 6X45 if you don't mind the custom route).

I started my daughter with the .223 because that's all she could handle at the time and she wanted to hunt. So I had the LOP cut down on a cheap Stevens 200 and put a Redfield 2-7X33. I didn't get her a deer at eight but had to wait until she was nine and get some help from my friends.

Age 9, popping PD's with "Uncle" tedthorn.


Age 9, first Oklahoma whitetail with 55 grain TSX, dang near bigger than her! Missed this hunt because of being called back from furlough, so "Uncle" imgoofy got to be with her for her first deer.


Age 10, second OK WT to fall to the mighty "Bruiser" and 55 grain TSX. I got to be there for this one.



Age 11, she moved up to the .300 Savage and 125 grain Nosler BT. Hoping to hunt elk at age 12 she decided it was time for a bigger rifle. She pulled a hat trick in one day! I had to remove the picture of the first deer a small button buck to get the last picture to show.



Age 12, no elk had to settle for another Oklahoma whitetail since dad broke his leg and couldn't take her elk hunting. The trusty "The Savage" and 125 grain NBT do the job again. "Uncles" imgoofy and Snellstrom took her on this hunt.



So that's why I say start them with a .223 if legal. Let them shoot what they're able and mentor them well. Kids grow fast and it won't be long until they grow into something bigger. They'll be better shots and hunters for it.

223 is more practical....

once again, considering you can get a Howa for $329 at Whittaker guns, add $12 for shipping and $10 for insurance.. and then whatever your FFL charges...

but with that price, you can pick up a 223 and a 243, or a 6.5 x 55 or a 7/08 for the price that ONE rifle would cost ya at many places...

out west where we varmint hunters can run thru 3 to 5,000 rounds of ammo in a summer... for economy the 223 is king...

Way to go, Taylor!

Think you guys have me sold on the .223, with three up and coming hunters, it will get used. As they mature, I'll move them into more age appropriate calibers (swede, creedmore, etc.) The cost of a dedicated rifle is cheap when considering how precious the time can be. Thanks all.

FWIW I started two kids with .223s Both had a straight 2.5X Weaver attached ( if it looks too far away to shoot in the scope...then it is....) Made them practice from positions till they were nearly sick of the guns.
Bottom line- both killed their first three deer with one shot apiece, no losses.

Taylor, Gansettx: great job with the youngins'!


I've used 223 and 243 for several head of big game and varmints. There is nothing wrong with a .223 and good bullets for deer. I've used 65 SGKs the most.

With that said, I do prefer 243 because I hunt states where 223 does not meet the minimum caliber requirement. I hunt in my home state of Virginia over the holidays every year and travel to several states. My son grew up shooting whatever he wanted to try. He ended up killing his first deer with a 260 Rem model seven, but he shot a 243 as well and liked it.

You may want consider the 243 if there is a chance of traveling to a state with a 24 cal minimum.

Good point, and the only reason I don't have a .223 set up for deer hunting--that .23" requirement.

Recoil is not a young shooter's friend, especially if Dad is wanting them to get in some trigger time prior to the hunt....

Another vote for the .223.

Partition = 60 grains

Bonded Solid Base = 64 grains



P

IME, the 60 NPT is more accurate than the 64 BSB.

The BSB may be accurate enough, both have good terminal performance.

DF

I put together a little CZ 527 carbine in 223 as my predator rifle. It will also be my sons first deer rifle. I took a nice fat doe a few years back with the 223 TSX 55 grain. It was 125 yard broad side shot and put her down. I am impressed with the performance of the TSX 55 grain as a deer round. It will do anything a 243 will do on a deer under 200 yards. Ammo is cheap and more important, the 223 is fun to shoot all day.

I don't have any experience with the .223 on deer as Kansas just recently dropped the .24 cal. and above requirement, but our son (now age 9) started with his .243 last year using reduced recoil loads and enjoys shooting it. I am using 25.0 gr. of IMR4759 and loading 70 gr. Ballistic Tips for practice and 90 gr. Accubonds for hunting.

Whichever you decide on, have fun and enjoy getting out with your new young hunters. They certainly add to the fun!

The .22x centerfire rifles are too weak for big game and not even legal let alone common sense because of that.

I know of a youth who was given one for his only CF rifle and he shot a buck in the neck and the buck died.

Then he shot another buck in the ribs at about 50 yds and it ran off and they never found it.

Get a 243. No question about it.

For reference, there are counties that used to allow .22 centerfires. That will be debated again and likely returned now that bear is a separate tag.

Also, I have no idea WTF you're smoking on CCW, but VA is still very much a concealed carry legal state, and OC legal as well.

Re: Varmint bullets on deer. [Re: moosemike]
Savage_99 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 13847
If a 222 was enough you would not have to ask!

When I was a kid in 1953 I shot my first deer with my 222 I loaded with the 55 gr Sierra. It hit the buck in the neck and broke his spine at about 175 yds.

Later that week I shot another buck in the ribs at about 50 yds with that 222 and it ran off. We never found it.




Interesting.

We hear this exact same story every time a comparison of two cartridges is asked for. My bet is this young Hunter pulled the shot and it was either too far back, or he missed all together. That's why the buck was never recovered, because there isn't a deer going to survive deflated lungs.

With the right bullets the .223 can punch through shoulders to get to the vitals. With the 55 grain TSX my daughter killed her second doe with a hard quartering towards her shot. I told her to aim for the point of the shoulder and shoot when ready, we found the bullet under the skin near the last rib.

If you're unable to kill deer with a .223 out to 200 yds +/-, well it's the Indian not the arrow.

Just heard on the radio the VA Govener just ended reciprocity. Which stops out of state CCW permit holders to legally carry in VA. Kind of a dick move, but VA CCW permit holders can still carry.

Youth Deer rifle and adult varmit ?

6.5 Grendel, Howa just announced they are releasing the catridge on the new Howa Mini Action, should be out mid year.

Seems the "youth" in question now relates that story in the third person, removed from the first person. From participant to bystander.

Oh, the trauma of youth and those lasting scars...

How they torture the soul...

If only he had been a better shot...

DF

Threads on this in the Campfire section. Your radio reports are incorrect, and Hell, CO permits weren't reciprocal because CO wouldn't honor VA permits (and many others), anyway.

Assuming that DumbassDon was truthful in the first place, those may have been the last two deer he ever shot (at).

Funny, as he often talks about deer hunting in VT, and the .22Magnum is legal for deer there. It's the most popular "youth" cartridge for deer, too, followed by the .223 and .22Hornet.

Could explain a lot about him.

Don't confuse him with facts.

Besides I think he is stuck in the 1950's.

I love the "not even legal because of it" bit, while he touts hunting in VT. Check the VT regs; obviously DumbassDon has not.

"Legal Firearms: 12, 16, or 20 gauge breech loading shotgun loaded with single soft alloy projectile ammunition. Rifled or smoothbore barrels allowed. Centerfire rifle 6mm (.243 caliber) or larger or revolver .357 caliber or larger may be used if the landholding is 10 or more acres and the landowner has authorized use on the consent form."

Ct state hunting laws

Since when do CT hunting laws apply to VT?

WTF I'm smoking is nothing. I was speaking to TomM1, from Pennsylvania, who's state's reciprocity was revoked. I am very much aware of my rights/privileges as a resident of this state and that I can continue carrying concealed, but *he* (TomM1) would no longer be allowed to do so. Nor do I believe I can go to his state and carry concealed.

It is still not legal to use a .223 in counties "that used to allow" .22 centerfires, so no smoke in that statement, either.

It was a sarcastic comment on how our (my?) state's government thinks sometimes.

Advanced senility is a sad situation.

Yup.

I got one for my kids and I fell in love with it! It's a Ruger American compact. It lays em right in there and it's fun to shoot.

As to report I find that if local residents are going to complain about a .243s report they will be just as upset by a .223.

Stuck somewhere...

Maybe cumulative trauma of his youth included harsh potty training...

Arrested development, unable to transcend the '50's...

Hmmm...

Might explain...

DF

John Barsness aka Mule Deer's got an interesting/good article on opinions of and differences in these cartridges and bullets in the past and today in his book "Obsessions of a Rifle Loony".

Last paragraph: "Today both the .224 and .243s are effective "combination" cartridges, useful for some varmint shooting and some big game hunting. In the 21st century it turns out that the 1/50th of an inch really wasn't any big deal, just as some people suspected all along."

Well I was just listening to Rush's show yesterday. I'm sure the program was pre recorded as there was no calles taken, which means he's probably on vacation. The guest host spent about 10 minutes on the rant about VA's Governor and his ties to Bloomberg's anti gun agenda.

I'm glad it got shot down in your state as I did read that thread. Still it was a "dick move" by your Governor and Attorney General. However, the many states Colorado doesn't offer reciprocity to are pretty much the same ones VA doesn't recognize as well. Though your state still denies more than mine.





Well enough about CCW, back to the subject at hand. I think the OP should look at a Ruger American compact for his kids. The 12.5" LOP, 18" barrel, and 6 lbs naked weight will be about perfect for kids for a starter centerfire. The 1:8 twist will allow a plethora of bullets to be used that can easily handle deer.

Gonna get a Tikka Compact. Its got a 20" tube and 12.5 LOP but includes and adapter to convert it to 13.5 once they grow or for Dad

Caliber will be .223, gonna try it out on a doe one year just to see before I turn a yougin loose with it. Prolly gonna load the 60 grain partition or 70 grain speer, leaning speer for the first go around.

I'd go 223 for sure; its considerably more fun to shoot than 243.

5.56 chambered AR. The adjustable stock alone makes this a no-brainer.

4, last time I checked ar's were not legal for hunting in Pa.

Va sucks on the .23 cal rule. A 243 with Trail Boss is perfectly legal, as it a 6x45. But damn a 223 with 75 Amax won't do it. Stupid.

Numbers matter, VA doesn't get it. I've written my share of letters for sure.....

And on that note, a 20" R700 243 topped with a SWFA 6X, McSwirly and 105's is on my to do list.

Kids will get to paint the tupperware and an illuminated reticle when the time comes.....

Give the Nosler 64 Bonded Solid Base a try. It will outperform both of the above.

I would do the 223 with 70 gr TSX loads.

If PA would get right and allow semi-autos, then my 6x45 ARs would accompany us back there for deer.