After much consideration, I have decided a Kimber Montana in 7mm-08 would be an excellent addition to my Arsenal. I'd like to get your insight on Accuracy and bullet choice. This rifle will be handy on long hiking trips for mule deer and elk. I always bed most of my rifles, however have you seen any improvements in accuracy by bedding?

It's a very appealing combination, but I would caution against buying a used one. I bought one used a few years ago, and after messing with it for a couple years, I finally had Pac-nor rebarrel it. It is now very accurate, and very unfussy.

I have heard the newer ones group better than the old. There's several threads here that describe accuracy fixes, so you might study those.

I have found that Montana's are very finicky about bedding. There is no room for error. Both of mine prefer tip pressure. I'm stuck between the Creed and the 7-08 as my next rifle. Waiting to see what's up with the Hunter. If it has feed rails I'll grab one for an extra Montana stock I have laying around.

I purchased a new Montana in 7mm-08 last spring and it was a 2" gun before bedding, and around a 1" gun after bedding. If memory serves correctly it was fairly easy to work with.

If you make sure the magazine box is not binding, make sure the front scope base screw is not too long and hitting the barrel threads before tightening and bed the action I think all will be good with the new ones. I have owned three Montana's and all needed to be bedded. If you loosen the front action screw on a new rifle slightly you can shake the barreled action side to side and front to back a considerable amount and this cannot be good for accuracy.

I have a new 308 coming and I am confident I can get it to shoot with little trouble.

I just purchased a Kimber Montana in 7-08 and put a Leupold VX-3 2.5x8x36 on it in Talley Lightweights and Flattop_Johnny from this site shot a 3 shot group (after 1 rounder fouler and paper finder) less than an inch with all three bullets touching. I shot the next group and it was under an inch with 2 bullets almost touching and 1 about a 1/2 inch away which I probably pulled, wind was kicking up so we quit after a long day of shooting a bunch of rifles. Ammo was Barnes factory Vor Tex 120 grain TTSX.

I bought just what you are describing last June:

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I did what was needed to the action and then had Eddie F. do the bedding.
The rifle shot five shot groups of a little over an inch when I got it. It didn't need much work as it seems that Kimber may have been reading some of the fix-it threads on this sight. (Mag box was fine as was the front action screw) Now, after bedding, if I don't get the barrel too hot it will consistently shoot under an inch at 100 yds. My loads of choice include the 120 gr. Ballistic Tip and the TTSX, as well as the 140 gr. Partition. I think those bullets are all I will ever need, and all three shoot to the above degree of accuracy. Take the plunge.

Most often I get my game with the first shot!

That a hunting rifle stay sighted in is primary.

I have been taking big game and also varmints with my hand loads in my tuned rifles since 1953.

Kimber Montana's are a new syn. SS addition to what I hunt with.

I have target rifles suitable for matches including schuetzen.

We get 'sighters' at matches. There are no sighters when hunting!

Thus I keep a record of where the first shot goes from a cold barrel.

That's one clean bedding job!

Thanks. I am very happy with his work. The picture doesn't show it, but he bedded the entire action, from front as pictured through the tang.

how I fixed mine

Kimber Roulette, just get a Tikka T3

Is that a Leupold 6x42? If so how do you like that turret? Nice rig by the way......

Yessir. The scope and turret have been reliable for me. But I'm a tinkerer, so I've been debating selling the scope and mounting a SS 6x42 or 3-9x instead

The Leup currently sits in a pair of Burris Sig Zee rings on Warne Maxima bases.

I can certainly understand the tinkering part, lol. Changing a reliable scope makes me nervous though. I like Burris Zee rings a lot as well

Mine has been drama free. Bought mine off the used rack @ LGS with an unknown number of rounds through it before I got it. Freed up the factory trigger a bit, loaded R-15 and 120 TSX or V-max @ 3050fps, put a 6x42 w/M-1 elevation into Talley lows and that was that.

I've had all 3 scopes on my 84M. It's still wearing the 3-9x42 SS, no plans to change.

David

That'd be a good way to go. A 3-9x sits on the 7-08's big brother- the 7WSM. Great scope and a great fit. I may go that way, but it's tough when I've had zero problems with this particular 6x42, despite more than a bunch of dialing

I really dig the 4-9x MQ on my 84M.

Jordan has a heck of a lot more experience with the Montucky than I do, and shooting, but I've had great "luck" with my 7-08 Kimber.

I recently made a switch from Big Game & Norma brass to RL15 & Lapua. 162 AMAX for both loads.




Shot these at 100 to confirm zero:









Then at 490 yards:

Same RL15 load:

I can't complain about the BG/Norma load though. It treated me well. I guess I won the Kimber Roulette?!

4th,

Nice shooting! Laughing at the "4-9x MQ" reference

Not bedded, except from the factory.

I bought mine, new, in approx 2003. Initial accuracy was 'adequate' until I added a pressure point towards the tip of the stock (as per a suggestion here at the Fire - small strip of bicycle inner tube) and accuracy improved substantially - regularly/consistently less than MOA at 100m.

I have used 140gr and 150gr factory loads but generally handload 120gr Nosler BT's, Sierras or Hornady Vmax's.

As is often stated, there does seem to be a knack to shooting these light rifles well - any user error certainly seems to be magnified.

Now if only the bolt handle was on the 'correct' side for me...!

My 1 1/2" .308 Kimber shot 3/8" after installing a Broughton 5C...

DF

Looks like you did!

My last one, the action was literally bedded on top of the magazine box...not as in "the box was binding", but, the box was the bedding surface(!)

Remove the box, the action dropped so deeply into the stock the barrel was now full contact in the fore end.

Of course it shot like crap. I knew what the fix was but couldn't be bothered. I wondered how stuff like that makes it out of a factory. Nice rifle, quality components and shidt QC/Final Assembly. No wonder some shoot and some don't.

That will always help.

Sure helped this one. Factory barrel was bad, had a constriction around 2" from muzzle that I could see with the Hawkeye and feel with a tight patch. Kimber tech said 1 1/2" was Kosher. Well, maybe for him, not for me...

This gun is now a keeper; pre Broughton, it was just a trader.

DF

4th Point,

What velocity are you getting with those loads, if you don't mind me asking?

4th,
In my experience with 7mm-08s, you can't go wrong with RL-15.

~2600 fps with 43gr Big Game, 215, and Norma case.

~2628 fps with 40gr RL15, 215, and Lapua case.

Velocities are really consistent with both loads. Pretty good ES and SD. Below are 5 rounds from the RL15 load, but I actually have a bunch more data thru the chrono.



The Lapua case has less capacity as you'd expect, but there's a tiny bit of room left to go higher than 40gr without compressing. I've seen good things from this rifle at ~2600 and with ES & SD pretty low I don't have much interest in chasing more velocity.

Doug,

So far I'm liking it. Throws nearly as well as Big Game... +/- 0.1 grain vs deadnutz. I also did a quick cold test and all was well regarding POI vs POA out to 500 yards, but I need to do a more thorough test.

Jason

RL 15 is one of the Reloader series of powders that are NOT sensitive to temperature change. This according to Mule Deer and others who have tested many powders in heat and extreme cold.

H4350 works great with the 162's in my 22" 7-08. Over 2700 fps and accurate.

Not sure where you came up with any of this.

ALL powders are sensitive to temperature change, including RL15.

I've actually never seen MD say he's tested RL15 extensively either, though I have seen him comment on its use by the military for the 7.62x51 because of its relative stability over a wide range of temps.

Personally I did test RL15. What I found was between about 90*F and -20F it lost right at 100 fps. What surprised me was Varget lost right at 50 fps with the same bullets in the same rifle. That's when I switched from RL15 to Varget.

100 fps is not a big deal for most of us, but since Varget usually shoots as well as RL15, I figured I might as well have a more temp stable powder for the same money, especially since summer range time is one thing, but hunting here is sometimes well below zero.

The more I use Varget, the more I like it. It gives outstanding accuracy and 3,050 fps in my 22" barreled Montana with 120 BTs. It's also a favorite in my .223 with 75 grain bullets and .308 with 155s.

SmokeP,

You going to make me rethink Varget, aren't you?

It just so happens that those three rifles/loads are among my most accurate, if you can get the same results I'm sure it'll give you the same warm/fuzzy.

Brad,
Perhaps I miss-spoke. Maybe I should have said that RL 15 is not TOO sensitive to temperature change; I was referring to use in the 7mm-08 and have not found any great variation in point of impact or velocity. That said, my use and testing is normally done in temperature changes of maybe 60 to 70 degrees at the most, (from say 85 degrees down to maybe 20 degrees). And I will do some research of some older material: if I have misquoted Mule Deer, I will make that correction. However, I will continue to use and recommend RL-15 for use in the cartridge mentioned. It may not be the very best available, but it sure has worked for me in five different rifles.


A little research shows that on page 278 in Mule Deer's book "Rifle Trouble-Shooting and Handloading" he shows a list of powders tested which includes RL 15. In the caliber tested, a 338 WM, at a range of 100 yds. and a temperature change of 70 degrees, he found a 36 fps. decrease in velocity (70 to 0 degrees) and no shift in POI. So with all due respect, this is part of "where I came up with this"....

Good info Doug, thanks for posting it!

I recall JB stating that RL15 seemed more temp stable than RL17, but I don't remember any details like what you provided.

We recently cold-tested a friend's 7RM load with 4831sc and it lost 60+ fps and POI was definitely high at 100y. My thought at the time was that the longer barrel time and increased muzzle projection were responsible for the higher POI. I was a little surprised with that much velocity loss since it's one of the "Extreme" powders but at 490 yards it seemed to match his regular drop data... at least close enough. If anything, POI was a touch high but I never went back to check drop values given the new inputs.

I think JB and others have stated that we shouldn't assume that any powder is temp stable without testing it, like you have. I believe the thought is that the powder behaves differently depending on the cartridge in question. And the load's barrel projection/deflection characteristics probably play a role, as always.

So far, RL15 has been good to me in the 223 and 7-08. I wouldn't mind trying H4350 but at 2.800" COAL for the Kimber, there isn't much room for that slow of a powder. In fact, the Lapua brass was cramped with the old Big Game load. RL15 is a touch faster and was just the ticket.

Jason

We're arguing about whether RL-15 is temp sensitive in the reloading section right now, and I am on the side saying that it is, and why I stopped using it.

Of course I am right because all powders are temp sensitive, it's just a matter of degree.

The military was happy with RL-15 until they started fighting in the desert heat and over wide temperature changes... that's when they found out it wasn't working very well, showing excessive chamber pressure and wide velocity swings, and they needed something a lot better. There's nothing like actual combat to show the limitations of equipment.

The military testing forced Alliant to try to improve the formula to meet the specifications. They couldn't do it and the military actually had to discontinue using RL-15 for fairly serious reasons in hot environs.

Bcause Alliant couldn't get RL-15 to meet the military requirements, they gave up and went with Fed GMM for only a few dollars more...maybe that was the strategy all along as everyone seems to be happy now.

The pressure on Alliant to retain the military contract may have had a hand in the development of the new Reloader series powders but as a result, current production RL-15 is less temp sensitive than it used to be. It used to be among the worst offenders, but now RL-15 is better than some double base powders, but not as good as others. It does have a good energy density so still has lots of fans.

RL-15 is reasonably predictable, so all the casual shooter really needs is a few more data points on the range card(s) to make it work over temperature variations. It's not a critical concern except at long range or when it's too hot outside.

If I had jugs of RL-15 sitting around I'd burn it, but I wouldn't buy any these days with so many more advanced powders available. I never had a problem making 4895 or Varget or H4350 work either.

This is old news for me, so currently I'm only interested in the new generation RL line-up.

I recently noticed an ad saying that RL-16 is out, but I haven't come across any for sale yet.

I know what I found... what I found was RL15 lost 100 fps from my summer bench time to winter weather. Varget lost approx 1/2 the velocity RL15 did.

Pat Sinclair (Scenarshooter) here on the forum makes his living shooting stuff here in MT. After I posted my findings on RL15 five or six years back he confirmed he'd found the same thing, and is why he runs Varget.

Since he's forgotten more about LR shooting than most think they know, I'll take Pat's word on the subject.

Ok, I surrender. (Grin). But, in MY temperature zone and with the accuracy I consistently get in my 7mm-08s along with good velocity, I will continue to use it as long as possible. As far as Varget is concerned, it is my powder of choice in my 308, but I don't get the accuracy in 7mm-08 that I do with RL 15. It won't hurt my feelers a bit if you guys save it for me.

Doug, like I said, for most of us I don't think it matters. But since I've found Varget equally (or more) accurate in my 308's, and it is more temp stable, why wouldn't I run it? And occasionally I do elk hunt below zero, and in areas where a long shot is possible.

As to the 7-08 MT, a nice round in a fine platform. Mine stubbornly refused to shoot 140's (have found that to be true with other 7-08's) but absolutely doted on 150 gr's and heavier. I settled on 46.5 gr's H4350 under a 150 NBT for 2,700 fps and took this decent 6pt. Bullet hit in ribs, traveled 32" of elk at an angle and was under the off-side scapula. One shot, one dead elk. Have never had one die quicker either.

That is a nice bull. Congrats!

Still in the infancy of load development, but 4451 and 4166 are kicking some Varget butt with 150's in the 7-08....and I'm a huge Varget fan. Speaking 7-08 only here.

I've done the cold weather stuff, but waiting on the dog days of summer to come to any conclusions. If things hold true, I'll post results this summer.

RL15 works great in our climate with 120's and 140's. The norm may be a 30 degree temp swing during hunting season anyway. I've yet to see a 95 degree day followed by a 15 degree while I'm chasing whitetails. Work up loads on like days and all is good...

Darik, I've used Varget, Hunter, H4350, RL17, 2000MR, etc., in the 7-08. It's a remarkably non-choosy round as far as powder goes.

However, I'll always take a 308. It's far less fussy accuracy-wise!

Well said...

Maybe coincidence because only a sample of 4-5, but I have found the 7-08 to be one of the most consistently accurate cartridge I have played with. But, I have mostly focused on 120s, either NBTs or TTSXs, which is enough with RL15 at 2900-3000 or unobtanium Big Game at .270 speed, and don't feel a need for much else in the cartridge.

Sold my last 3 lbs. of Big Game a couple weeks ago. It shot great in cool weather and hot, with no change in POI that I could detect.

First pic was HOT weather (95+ F) showing groups from 2 shooters. Second & third pics from a cool day (30-35 F).

This one in 7MM/08, will stay with me until I'm under the sod.(front)
I've had good luck with Varget and IMR 4350. Been useing Speer 145 hot-cors for whitetails. This one went thru a buck lengthwise.

Speer Hotcore is an underrated bullet.

Brad, couldn't agree more. That hit was on a buck coming at me, at a slight angle. Hit just to the side of the brisket. Found the bullet against the hide on the opposite hip. If I remember correctly 85% weight retention.Accuracy in the 7/08 is very good also.

My first deer was at 30 yds, 145 BTSP, do not believe it was a hotcore- hit the shoulder at hi-vel and completely disintegrated in the knuckle. My book load was supposed to have been at 280 speeds in my 7RM, but later was revised as the guys at Speer found out the loads were higher pressure in guns other than the 1st test gun.

That said, never had any issues w/7s from a 7/08 and shot many deer long ago using 130 Sierra SSP/139/140 Sierra BTSP and BT. Used 120s and 130 Speer in a 7BR rifle successfully, both Hornady SP and HP. The 7/08 like the mid-capacity 6.5s work well with many bullets.

I believe the 130 FB is a HC bullet, and underated/used in the 7/08 for deer sized game, the BTSP does well at 7/08 speeds and offers a nice BC.

Oddest thing I ever saw a bullet do was this exact combo back in the late 80's. My best friend shot a 4x4 whitetail at around 225 yards. He was using a 7-08 Model 7 KS with 130 Speer HC's. He shot the buck in the chest as it was facing him, and the bullet travelled the full length of the deer. In butchering the bullet was found in the rear leg hock! Weird.

Recovered bullet looked like a Speer ad...

I took this year's 7x7 bull with a 165 Speer HC from my 308. A nice, mature 7 year-ish old animal.

Personally, I'd never use Speer BT's, but the FB Hotcore's are the real deal. Biggest whitetail buck I ever took, right at 200 lbs dressed, was taken with a 308 Win and 150 HC. Bullet bunched both scapula's and exited.

I've always called them the Poor Man's Partition.

Bingo. I am not getting folks working up loads at 95 degrees when the hunting will be in the cold. Work up in the 50's or so and go kill stuff.

I don't think anyone stated that they were working up loads in 95 degree weather.

Good shooting 4th.

I've 'developed' loads in hot weather, keeping in mind that performance will be affected by weather. I confirm loads in cold weather prior to big game hunting.

I just work up a load whenever i can and shoot it all year.

Have you noticed a big difference in POI when shooting these summer loads in cold weather?

4th point....you mean me?

No; not a lot. But i shoot mostly no further than 400 yards during winter. Most winters, I cannot get to 500-600 yds. Range is snowed in, so most practice is from 400 yds and in.

I know many powders lose velocity in cold weather; I was recording this sort of thing back in the 1980's with powders like IMR4350 and some others.


But I was working a lot with cartridges that generated 3000-3250 fps MV. If I lost 100 fps, it really did not show much from 300 to 400 yds.

If you were asking me, actually, very little. I will qualify that with the fact that I load 'maximum' loads only when they are the most accurate in a given rifle. I will sacrifice a couple hundred feet a second for accuracy.

Occasionally I will see a load print slightly higher and possibly a little one side or the other, but rarely have I noted any wholesale change in impact .

That's the thing...it won't show much until you get out there a bit. At normal hunting ranges, it really isn't a big deal.

Bob, 1Nut, SAS,

Thanks for the replies.

Earlier I mentioned my bud's 7RM load that lost 60+ fps and shot high at 100y with H4831SC. But there was very little change observed in POI at 490 yards with the higher zero. I know JB has mentioned that velocity is only one part of the test... we need to check POI too.

When I tested RL15, I only checked POI at 490. It seemed pretty good, but I never recorded velocities.

Jason

How far was the shot?




P

Same here, which is why my favorite 140g partition load in my McWhorter is 41g of RL15 @ 2760fps.

40 yards.

Re: Hotcore - seems they would perform like an AB - yes?
And to your point - JB says the AB often acts like a PT

On speeds vs temps. FYI the Speeds I've clocked for 708 loads like many
Were during summers here in the south and that often means 94-97F...

Anyone that questions working up and shooting loads in the summer, well, they just haven't lived in Montana!

We have a short season where range-time is actually fun. Temps can hit 100*F+... Coldest I've elk hunted was a few clicks south of -30*F.

Here, at least to me, it makes sense to use powders that exhibit the least variation in velocity summer to fall. Why not? May not be necessary inside 500 yards, but it can't hurt either.

If I lived and hunted in a less severe climate I wouldn't bother to think about it. And as I've said before, it's not all that critical here for 99.762% of the time.

I haven't owned that exact combination, but I've had 2 84Ms, a .257 Roberts and a .308, and if there's a nicer rifle to pack around, I haven't met it yet. I've had several 7mm-08s and if there's a better deer cartridge, I haven't met it.

7mm-08 loads ... my last rifle liked RL19 under 140 grain partitions and W760 under 120 grain ballistic tips. That's pretty much all I shot in it. I would prefer a faster powder for both uses since I wound up with heavily compressed loads and some trouble with bullets backing out of the cases, however, that's where the accuracy was so I lived with it. Most of my deer hunting is in brush and timber.

That 140 grain load just knocked the stuffing out of everything I shot with it.

Tom

I've been thinking about a Montana in 7mm-08 but I wish it had a floor plate as I'm not a fan of unloading the rifle by working the bolt, an ex-friend put a bullet in the dirt between my legs while doing this. Is it possible to retro fit a floor plate?

Brad, isn't that 99.708% of the time?

CEJ - put a bullet or fired a bullet, big diff, that was operator error, either way, but I can get your drift...

Choose your friends wisely....

That's why he's an ex friend!

No need to close the bolt to get the shells to kick out. I can safely empty my Montana 7-08 in a few seconds.

If you're chambering a round to unload it, then you're doing it wrong. And your ex-friend doesn't know how to unload a rifle with a blind mag.

Never said I did that, Never had a rifle without a floor plate. You're right tho he didn't know or wasn't paying attention - either way I never hunted with him again.

He pulled the trigger too....

Guess I'll have to look into one more closely - thanks!