FINALLY I've had the opportunity to begin testing 120 NBT in my Win 70 FTWT 22"--6.5X55.

I'm using WW brass/ older, nickel plated, WW Primers, IMR 4831 powder over an Oehler 33 with NEW skyscreen IIIs.

I waited 6 mos for the bullets to come last yr and when they did it was tooo hot to mess with. Deer season came & went then we've had 3 months of March winds. This morning I was able to graph with cloudy skies, temp @ 65*. Great conditions.

I began by checking batteries in the O 33, NO low battery indicator. I used my Ruger 10-22 and Fed ammo to verify everything was working alright. CHECK !

After months of research and comparing load data for Modern Firearms I started with 46 gr IMR 4831 and slowly worked my way upward.

49 - IMR 4831 av 2760 fps --not acceptable to me.

50 - IMR 4831 av 2825 -- not bad but I'm looking for 2900-3000.
I have another LOT of IMR 4831 I'll try next PLUS IMR 4350.

50 grs is NOT too hot for MY rifle. Primers still tight. ALSO I found this in Handloading Big Game Rifles...

Denton
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/04

Campfire Pet Loads -- 6.5X55

49.5 grains H4350 with a 120 grain Sierra bullet and 3.000" COL gives me a measured 59.4 KPSI and 3075 FPS out of a 24" barrel. I back that one down a grain just for luck. Should give you about 3025 and around 57 KPSI,

****which is a conservative load for a modern rifle.****

47.5 grains H4350 behind a 129 grain Hornady bullet, 3.000" COL, gives 2951 FPS. I don't have a pressure measurement on that. Same 24" barrel.
Your results will be different, of course.
Edited by denton (12/28/14)
---------------------------------------------------------

IF - IF 49.5 grs H4350 gave less than 60,000 PSI--
THEN 50 grs IMR 4831 should be less than 60.000 PSI.

Next time I'll try another lot of IMR 4831 and IMR 4350

*************
Check This OUT
I shot a few rounds of Factory PRVI 140 SP over the graph.

2217, 2202, 2235, 2202 / 4 rounds told me ALL I wanted to know!!
That's good 30-30 speed right there.

For curiosity and *satisfaction* I drug out my M 6, 30-06 with 165 HBTSP and H 205, yes-- H 205

2929, 2942, 2923---The graph WORKS right --PRVI SUX!

Jerry

I shot lots of 308 Win PRVI during the few years I wasn't reloading. 150g stuff clocked a consistent 2700fps which wasn't the worst for the money.

That 6.5 stuff is dreadful though. You could time it with your stopwatch!

g'day Bob -

I'm going to DISmantle those PUNY rounds and TRY to use the brass.
I got 2 boxes of Prvi factory ammo when I bot the rifle.

I'll pull the bullets, pour the powder in flower beds, and DE cap the brass and destroy the primers I'll keep the 140s till I see if I want to use them and probably won't.

NO wonder 'some' like the 6.5X55 -- no recoil !!
AKA no velocity.


My 6MM Rem will push 100 gr bullets -3100 fps.

6.5 X55 - pftt pftt

Jerry

47gr of H4350 gives me 2850fps out of a 23.5" Military using the 120gr Ballistic tip. Nosler list 3000fps for the load in their test barrel, 23" lija

I did alot of testing and found the "best" powders to be RL 22, then both RL-19 and H414

I've noticed too many Xs that not only Nosler but others as well, lists higher velocities than WE are able to get with similar barrel lengths ? ? ? Old discussion - no need to re hash.

Thnx
Jerry

How's your rifle throated ?

About 10-12 years ago I bought one like yours and a 140 SMK could be placed on top of a case (unseated) and the bolt could be closed.

Scary accurate though. It was my NRA center fire Hunter class silhouette rifle for awhile.

Good luck.

I'm at 2950 with a 123 scenar and h4350. 4831 is too slow for 120's.

I can't remember off hand because I'm also working with a custom 284 W and I get them confused -- at times like this.

Just getting started w/120s I simply set COAL with the Factory ammo. I've had WW 140 PP that were very accurate so I'm using 3.150 for now.

I have checked distance to lands but simply don't remember right now.
I will play w/COAL but today I was getting an idea per vel/charge.

Thnx

Jerry

I have thot IMR 4831 might be too slow burning. At 50 grs there is still room for more powder AND I'm not at max pressure. (refer to OP and Denton's post I copied)

I have IMR 4350 and will try it before buying the H version. Here our temp during season CAN get -Zero but not often. Most of the time our hunting season temps range from 60* down to @ 20* F. That's the reason I haven't chased the insensitive powders YET.

OTOH , Rl 22 has a reputation of large swings w/low temps. I have avoided it so far.

Thnx

Jerry

Straight from Nosler.
43.5 grs. IMR4350, Prvi case, Remongton primers and 120 gr. BT gets me nickle sized groups from my Tikka T3 Hunter.
No chrono results, I'm looking for accuracy and consistency. I'll be trying out some Barnes and Hornady GMX tomorrow.
http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/65x55-swedish-mauser/

Smarquez-

As far as I'm concerned too -- HI vel is useless w/o accuracy. IF you get 3500 fps and can't hit a 'wash tub' you don't have anything.

From Denton's post in Reloading Forum
---------------------------------

Campfire Pet Loads -- 6.5X55

49.5 grains H4350 with a 120 grain Sierra bullet and 3.000" COL gives me a measured 59.4 KPSI and 3075 FPS out of a 24" barrel. I back that one down a grain just for luck. Should give you about 3025 and around 57 KPSI,

****which is a conservative load for a modern rifle.****
--------------------------------

49.5 ** H 4350 ** = @ 3075

SO 43.5 IMR 4350 gives you an idea of speed. I KNOW H and IMR 4350 aren't ===.. Sometimes H is faster burning, sometimes it's slower burning.

I am shooting for 2900-3000 w/120s. Pun intended.
It MUST be accurate. I'm not wasting my time and components in group shooting loads that are dragging their butts.

I'm going to find the vel. bracket>>>THEN work on accuracy.

Thanks

Jerry

An ADDENDUM -

If I can't find accuracy within MY velocity bracket......
a rifle will float down the river. I am sincere about that.

EVERY time I have settled....I've regretted it.


Jerry

I would take a look at R17 as well. I think many people expect more velocity from it so put the pedal to the metal.

But there is enough tested data to verify at least an additional 50 fps or so in the cartridges that it's a good match for.

Check out the loads for the .260 R it is at 2,912 fps. on the Alliant site. The loads shown for the 6.5 are for military actions. The 6.5 should easily equal or slightly surpass the .260 at the same pressure due to 5% more capacity.

From what I gather R17 is close to IMR 4350 in temperature sensitivity but not as consistent as the H version. Most of the high power shooters seem to be using H4350 for 120-139 gr. bullets in the .260. Usually about 42-43.5 grains.

Jerry,

I have been playing with a 6.5x55 for quite some time and H4350 is the powder that gives me both velocity and accuracy with 120, 125 and 130 grain bullets....

CORRECTION--- CORRECTION

The factory COAL is 2.940 NOT 3.150 sorry!
I said I was going from memory, so...

Today I set the COAL for 120 NBT at 3.000". These 120 NBTs are much slimmer nosed. The secant ogive is 'shallower', more streamlined.

Also I turned a 140 sp upside down and closed the bolt. The distance to lands is 2.715--base of bullet. This Win 70 is not xtra long throated. I'm glad.


Today I prepped cases and loaded IMR 4350 for testing. I am trying IMR because I have it before buying H.

Thnx
Jerry

Tejano & MMGravy

I have also considered Rl 17 and you are right about it being 'close' to 4350. As I posted just now earlier I already have IMR 4350 and if I'm not satisfied, I will check out Rl 17 and H 4350.

Thnx
Jerry

I was hoping you would test some R17 so I don't have too.

I will get to it at some point as I don't want to leave any velocity on the table. But probably will stick with the tried and true H4350 for the lighter bullets.

First I need to run through the heavy bullets as I may stay with the 129-160 range before trying the 120s.

With the 120 NBT, I've found both IMR 7828, similar speed to RL22, and RL 19 to give me both good speeds and accuracy in my M70 Classic.

My M70 seems to like the slow powders for some reason.

We have a couple of the M70 Classic rifles in the Swede around here and they both prefer the slower powders. They also seem to prefer the heavier bullets. That has not been a problem as we have found that less than 3000 fps will still kill a deer...

Of course it will. Otherwise no deer would have been killed with 357 M, 44 M & 30-30s.

I just 'demand' speed for trajectory--that's all.

Jerry

<grin> I will try Rl 17 IF I have to and I'll post results IF.




I have and use 7828 in my 270s...makes me wonder IF there's enuff capacity in the case ? Might have to check that out.

Thnx
Jerry


I really haven't been load developing very long for my 70 FTWT. I tried the 129s w/IMR 4831 and wasn't satisfied.

I will be testing the 120s w/IMR 4350 today -hopefully.


Thanks for the interest and INput -- guys.

I have some 120s loaded over some IMR-4350 as well. I will post the results when I get a chance.

Sell it and buy a 264 Win Mag.

It has crossed my mind!!

Knowing my propensity for 270s, 7 RMs, 300 WMs I doubt I'd have any problems finding satisfaction!


After reading about the 'virtues' of the 6.5 Swede/260 Rem/6.5 Creedmore... I thot I'd give one a try. Afterall if you can kill deer with a smaller case, less powder, and ESPECIALLY less recoil , I found a Win 70 FTWT. I've always loved the POST 64 FTWT - they actually are lighter.

I have hunted this Swede 2012-2015 with WW Factory 140 SP and killed several deer. They DO work, however the POOR trajectory just doesn't melt my butter, so.......

I have this new project and am making progress!

Jerry

I have a question or 2 for any of you.

Has anyone found a 6.5X55 OR 260 Rem load for...

120 gr bullet, IMR 4350 @ 49 grs----in a loading book/on line?

120 gr bullet, IMR 4831 @ 50 grs----in a loading book/on line?



[--I'm NOT counting Denton's pressure tested load in the Reloading Forum--Big Game Rifles--Good 6.5X55 loads--]

I have reasons for the questions. I'll tell why IF/AFTER there are any responses.

Jerry

I'm using 46.5 grs h4350 in a 22" barrel at 2950. That's noslers max too I believe.

You are over thinking this. Get some 4350...

D C -

I promise I'm not over thinking it. I have IMR 4350 & IMR 4831.

I am developing my load/s.

The questions still stand.

Jerry

Back in the day, I reformed brass from 6 Rem RP. Hint. For pure speed shoot a 6. But a 6.5 loaded well retains....with good bullets.

I like Lapua brass if bolt face and extractor correlate. My former SS Fwt ran WW - and maybe not by choice. Cannot recall.

Pick optimum powder for bullet weight. Then find your pressure with a kiss or as close to it. 70s have long throats so you may get a freebore but can still shoot DOA - deer of angle. Deer won't like you

65 -

The distance to lands in this 70 is , 2.715. I checked it yesterday. I 'think' I have some 160 gr bullets. If i do I'll see how long they'll seat off the lands.

These 120 NBT have long skinny noses but I don't think it's a long jump to lands. Even if it is that would allow more powder/less pressure.

I am making progress and have more things to try/test/check.

W/O telling all now, I will say I feel better about the Swede than I have so far.

Still looking for anyone that's found those loads from ANY published source.

Jerry

IIRC loads for a Swede are IME often 1.5 gr higher than a 260 but throats vary. Brass. Etc. I would post on 6mmbr.com as many swede shooters there as well. My old Noz manual seemed to have some good loads for the 120 BTs last I looked.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_bw.asp?CaliberID=120&BulletWeight=120

Jerry,

Yes to both questions:

Speer Loading Manual#11, page 153.
Rifle:Swede Mauser Model 94 w/ 18" Barrel(1-7.5 twist)

Maximum Load:

IMR 4831 50.0 grains @2820fps with 120gr Spitzer
IMR 4350 49.0 grains @2788fps with 120gr Spitzer

Just wanted to say that I used 120 grain Ballistic Tips in my 260 last year to take two nice big bodied southern whitetail bucks. The first weighed 180 pounds and was 180 yards away. Bang Flop. The second
bottomed out a 200 pound scale. Estimate him at about 230 pounds. He was 275 yards away. Dead right there as well. Both deer were high shoulder shots. Both broke the spine. The first one exited. Recovered the second under offside hide.

These were from Federal factory loads that my chrony said were doing about 2850fps. These shot under an inch at 100 yards and were about 2 inches at my 270 yard steel deer target.

I believe the 120 NBT is a perfect deer bullet at 260/6.5 swede/creedmoore velocity. Can email pix of the deer and the targets to anyone that wants to see them or help me post them here.

SD -
Thnx, I don't have Speer #11.

I have older books with 260 Rem & 6.5 Swede-NONE show those loads. My NEWEST manual is Nosler 7, they don't list these charges.

I've been on line Hogdon & Nosler- they don't show those 'charges'. "THEY" list LESS powder and velocities from @2900-3000. AGAIN I can't get near that speed w/their charges.

I have shot 50 IMR 4831 AND 49 IMR 4350--the primer pockets are STILL tight. Velocity with IMR 4350 is pretty decent. All this is 'because' of Denton's Pressure Tested loads. THANKS

Thnx Again, I'll post more as I get to shooting groups. I'm getting there.

Jerry

65 -

I double checked today. My 70's throat is 2.715 AS BEST as I could consistently measure. With a 3.000 COAL that is NOT a long jump to lands.

I barely seated a long bullet and THEN closed the bolt and let the riflings seat the bullet. I had a little doubt about doing it the other way...but today I confirmed it.

Jerry

DC -
Have you chronographed that at 2950 ?

I know about diff specs in bore, throat, & components, but I am not close to 2950 w/46.5 grs.

Jerry

jwall,

I doubt you are going to find reputable published loads at that level (except perhaps in older manuals, but notice the claimed velocity on the Speer #11 load) simply because it exceeds SAAMI guidelines for the 6.5x55 of 46,000 CUP/51,000 PSI.

Denton's pressure tested load shows 59.4 KPSI, which exceeds the SAAMI max by about 16.5%. That doesn't mean it's unsafe in your Winchester FWT, since that action should handle it just fine. If you want to use Denton's load in your rifle, by all means do so.

But finding that as a published load? Nope.

P.S. You may also wish to label any loaded ammo as "6.5x55 @ 60k PSI" so it's never mistakenly loaded in an older 93, 95, or 96 Mauser.

Azar -

Yes sir, I understand and agree.

It seems to me that BY NOW there would be loading data 'designated' for Modern Firearms. At the same time "Bubba" doesn't read or comprehend so the liability factor may weigh heavy !!

Thanks for the suggestion of labeling MY ammo. Good idea.


ALSO I haven't found similar loads for the 260 Rem either. It's easy to find velocity listed but the charges don't produce what's claimed FOR ME.
I have chased 260 loading data and ' I ' haven't found those charges.

Having had 243 and 6 mm R I know there is 1 grain 'working' difference with the 6 using that additional gr. the 6.5 and 260 are VERY similar to the 243/6mm comparison.

Thanks again

Jerry

I look at it like this: Having a larger capacity, the Swede loaded to modern pressure should be able to best the velocities obtained from a 260 Remington. A bunch of published data shows the 260 producing 2900 fps +/- with 120 grain bullets and 4350/4831 class powders.

Unless my rifle told me otherwise I wouldn't be afraid to load to the low 2900's in the Swede with similar powders and a 120.

Jerry and Mike have seen this, posting just to show what a 6.5x55 can do (100 gr, not 120 gr.)

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9785470/1

Like they say, don't try this at home.

For sure, the old Swede isn't an 80K psi gun. But with a modern action, it's more than a 40K psi gun, for sure. Somewhere between 40K and 80K you'd think there may be a sweet spot...

DF

That's true, and that seems to be the case here.

Nominal case capacities

So that gives the Swede about 7.5% capacity advantage over the 260 Rem. Using JB's 4-to-1 Rule (any increase in case capacity results about 1/4 that much extra velocity) would yield the 6.5x55 an additional 1.9% velocity over the .260 Rem (when loaded to the .260 Rem pressure levels).

Hodgdon lists 120g Speer SP w/ 43.0g IMR 4350 for 2,885 fps (@58,000 psi). That would suggest you could safely get to ~2,940 fps at the same pressure level in the Swede. Although it would take more powder in the Swede to get to that velocity level due to it's larger case capacity.

Looks like jwall is already in that ballpark with Denton's loads.

MM -

Yep, I am there with IMR 4350 and tight primer pockets.
IMR 4831 was less than 2850.

My next steps will be grouping and hopefully be where I wanna be. I expect to get some H 4350 also.

Thnx
Jerry

DF -

I want to stay with a longer bullet than the 100gr. I understand the trade off w/100 at higher speed OR 120 w/ higher BC.

Thnx
Jerry

AZAR -

I think I am there too. It hasn't been easy cyphering this out, what with pressure limits for old rifles and conflicting data even comparing 260 loads.

After hanging around the 'fire' I have become somewhat apprehensive.

It's almost like being BACK in Hagel's day.

Jerry

Me, too.

That's why this gun will be shooting the 139 Scenar over a good load of MRP. It's the best grouping of the loads I've tried.

The 100 gr. load was just a test, didn't start out as a "pressure test"...

DF

Jwall, yes, my loads are chronographed at 2950. I'm at 10+ reloads on lapua brass and pockets tight.

I used to shoot 120s in mine too. Got better groups and a better b.c. with 123 scenars though. Mine was a dog with 140s.

H4350 is where it's at. Why bother with IMR?

If I was to acquire a 6.5 swede, I might look hard at Big Game in it...

Because I have it. H 4350 & IMR 4350 are NOT that much different. H is temp stable.

I believe you about YOUR velocity. In my rifle & my components it took more powder to get to 2950.

Jerry

Surprised, my gun has a really long throat.

Maybe something to the bore, bll. length, &/or components.

Be glad, it's more economical.

Jerry

I saw some other QL data that showed 49 grains of H4350 as at both 60 and 62,000 psi. It seemed to come down to the tenth of a grain of case capacity on the QL data so this would be affected by seating depth as well as case type.

Hoping I can get there with R26 for the 140s and MRP for the 120-129 grain pills. Suspect I can get close without "sploding" anything. One of the MRP loads was over 3,000 fps for the 120 BT from the Norma data.

I've seen the claim that MRP and RL-22 were near the same, or the same. MRP and 139 Scenars shoot one hole groups in my FN/Shilen 6.5x55. That combo beat out every other load I've tried.

Point being, don't limit MRP to 120's; it's slower than 4350 and one would think it would be as good if not better with heavier bullets.

DF

Re: H and I - all the data I've seen from reputable shoots showed H getting around 75 fps more than I - in a 260, and I would extrapolate that to say, if you have a velocity goal, invest in some Hodgdon. I did IMR is good stuff, accurate, but I now use H -

JUST for comparison -- I haven't posted the vel yet with IMR 4350

**49** IMR 4350 120 NBT = 2969 fps, yes the primer pockets are still tight. I can live with this! !

Yet compare IMR 4831 --- 50 gs = 2825

Seems odd to me there is such a diff w/ 4350 and THEN IMR 4831 is very close.

I'll be grouping IMR 4350 pretty soon.

I think I know where I can go pick up H 4350 locally.

Jerry

Given the case capacity and ROT, you should focus on accuracy now, as your speeds are very good for this bullet IMHO.

Enjoy flattening deer with a round that is to Europe, what the JOC is to America; And with a very respectable trajectory I might add

Very thoughtful, using "the JOC" in code to spare Ingwe the mental trauma/stress of seeing that unspeakable caliber mentioned...

DF

Well I guess the 7PM Ingwe Express might also qualify for the Euro title...

You read my mind ? <grin>


Jerry