Just curious on others choices, other than AR's -

Thinking some of the short bolts with 20" bbls or less in 308 or perhaps a common 243, might be effective, especially with a DBM and low powered optic, or good irons.

Ruger scout comes to mind, but curious about others.

It sure seems like a long gun has a big upper hand when one has a choice or opportunity.

Pros/Cons vs the common AR? I know a few come to mind, but curious on others thoughts.

This looks like a good one for you.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11462608/Re:_FS:_Howa_Lightning_LTWT_.2#Post11462608

That's part of what my howa, mini is for. I like the idea

A feller that is willing to practice whipping the bolt fast (and correctly, fom the shoulder) could make things pretty interesting for his opponents.

Brian Pearce has for a good while advocated levergun carbines for such work, especially for those who live or travel where handguns or semi rifles are restricted. There are accessory rails and such for those interested in that kind of thing.

As much as I absolutely love a short barreled .308 bolt action for a general purpose/all around rifle (hunting), when it comes to social work, they are not a good answer.

This has been tested, re-tested, and tested some more by various units.

A short semi auto like a 16" SR-25 E2 is just simply too practical. 20 round box mags, fast rates of fire, 1 MOA accuracy, collapsible/adjustable stock, optics friendly, etc, etc.

There is simply no match between a bolt action and a semi auto in real world conditions. That is coming from a guy who has carried both, and is a bolt gun fan. The semi auto has a very clear advantage.

Kelly thanks - that is a handy 243, had one in 7/08 in the past.

MJ, that new 6.5 Grendel would be a low recoil ie fast recovery option, and should be about as effective as the Mini 308 Rusky round....and reach out when needed. I had thought of those for other purposes in the past, very close to a BR.

Re: Levers, I kick myself selling my old Marlin 357, light bark and bite but spit 158s a 2050, not sure what a lighter 110-140 would have done.

Mackay, I am listening, so the "performance" is apparently easily tips to the Semi platform. In that case, for closer range work, would one be best to use a 223 16" ?

How do the 223 and 308 compare with common ammo, on various barriers? Anyone? Thanks. I am speaking to say under 200 yds.

While on long guns, what shotguns do you guys like? Thinking an 870 in 20 or 12G, with a 21-26" - or similar semi.

I agree with Mackay's post but it doesn't mean a bolt action is bad to have along.

If/when the SHTF, I have an AR in .223/5.56 and another in .300BLK. For most social survival situations I would probably prefer the .223/5.56 as ammo would be more common. For suppressed activities the .300BLK would be my choice. An Aero .308 lower and upper pair sit in my safe waiting to be built. It, too, will have its place.

As will my Ruger Scout in .308 with its 16.1” barrel. It is lightweight, handy, accurate and more considerably more powerful than a .223/5.56. With the ghost ring sights I can easily hit clay pigeons at 200 yards, no batteries or scope required. A forward mounted scope (leaving the ghost ring in place) makes hitting 600 yard targets pretty easy. The .308 AR could do all that except for the weight and handiness.

If the purpose is to defend myself and family against others armed with semi-auto handguns or rifles, I’d want a semi-auto as well, rifle AND handgun - but chances are I’d be screwed anyway. In my semi-rural situation a more likely situation is the need for putting meat on the table, which might mean rather long hikes. For that I’d prefer the lightweight and handier .308 Scout backed up by a high-cap semi-auto handgun.

I would use what I have already.
Ruger Hawkeye RSI S.S. 30-06
with a Leupold FX-II 3x20 with Heavy Duplex
replaced factory brass bead front sight
with NECG 3/32 IVORY BEAD for OLD EYES!
AMRA

The old yellow boy by original Henry was about as good as it gets for what you're wanting. Maybe a center fire upgrade would be nice though.

Suggestion - live where you don't need to worry about social issues.

In a survival situation, give me an accurate .22 rimfire rifle. I can carry about three times the number of rounds in a backpack as I can .223's of the same weight. Don't even mention .308's or .30-06's in that regard. And since 99.9% of my shooting will be to put edible game in my stomach, the .22 shines over any centerfire factory/arsenal/hot handloaded cartridge, even allowing for plinking a whitetail in the head. The other .1%? If evading/hiding doesn't cut it, then a shot to the face and run like hell. If there's multiple adversaries, and they're armed, the chances of surviving the encounter go down and it wouldn't matter much what I was carrying at that point.

I stand more of a risk from expiring without my heart meds, or contracting a fever/disease or sustaining a life threatening injury in an extended survival situation than anything else probably- I won't worry too much about how well I'm armed.

(That's not to say there isn't a dandy AR-15 .223 and a sh*tload of ammo resting peacefully in my closet... -for non-survival serious social encounters. )

If an AR-15 and its obvious tactical value is out of question, I would be intrigued more by a pump rifle than a bolt. I started out as a kid shooting jack rabbits with a pump Remington .22lr, and learned that they can be quite quick and more than acceptably accurate. One downside is that they are not really short, due to the length of the receiver.

Another carbine choice that's not a bolt action or AR is the SKS. The antis will get around to it sooner or later but for now, as far as I know, it doesn't meet most of their check marks. It's not black, and in original form has a non detachable magazine limited to 10 shots. It's still comparatively inexpensive and for it's purpose it's accurate, enough, tough and ammo is plentiful and cheap.

I've been taking mine to the range lately. Granted there's a whole lot better pistol shots out there than me but IME the SKS is much more effective than a handgun at delivering fast, accurate, powerful shots past 25 yards and is faster for followup shots than a bolt action carbine. I can usually put a bullet somewhere on a human silhouette target with it most of the time using factory open sights and cheap ammo out to 200 yards.

Who was it who said "Use a pistol to fight your way to a shotgun, and use a shotgun to fight your way to any old rifle"?

Yup, heading for the hills ain't all it's cracked up to be, especially for old folks and families.

I inadvertantly made a good move regarding surviving a collapse when I moved up here to the country. We're far enough from the city to be fairly safe from looters and rioters, but have enough folks around for mutual support and security.

If things start to go South, I'm gonna take the plug outa my A5 and hunker down.

Terms like "social work" and "survival situation" aren't very precise. I'd hate to use them to define the most useful tools for the job.

Good stuff guys.

Mesabi, The terms can be mutually exclusive, or not, depending

So, like when you have to do survival work in a social situation?

Seems like anti-social work would be a better description

I don't see where a bolt gun has the upper hand, in fact I can't think of anything it does better. A good military style auto loader is just as accurate as a bolt gun, and having 20 or 30 rounds in a detachable magazine is a huge advantage, not to mention quick follow up shots.

Now if we're talking survival situations, IMHO the #1 key to survival is not bringing attention to yourself. This means avoiding armed conflict as much as possible, and not bringing attention to yourself when you need to make a shot. Whether that be defending yourself and family or downing game. And for that, there is much to be said for a suppressed 22rf, 9mm, 300bo or a 45 caliber shooting a 300 gr or heavier bullet subsonic. Also much to be said for bows and crossbows.

From a purely technical standpoint, using something other than a black rifle for that kind of thing only makes sense if using a black rifle is illegal.

But there's a lot more to it, starting with skill. A good shooter who stays calm under stress is a far tougher opponent than a skittish chump with a tricked out M-4. Unfortunately, most people who own black rifles spend more time hanging useless [bleep] off of them than they do on actually learning to use them well under stress.

Then there's the PR side of it. Having a lever, pump, or bolt gun makes you look like Elmer Fudd instead of a militiaman, so you win most of those battles before they start.

Fortunately, the people who are afraid of guns never think about skill, so it's still OK to train.


Okie John

One really needs to define "social"...

Are we talking "social" breakdown, outback survival situation or a 1/1 conflict, like a robbery or carjacking?

I agree with Mackay that there is nothing like a semi-auto when it comes to self-defense, but when he talks about "units" I would imagine he is talking about LE, military or contractors. For individuals facing several antagonists at greater than pistol range a bolt gun can be viable.

When I travel I take a scout type rifle with me only because there are a few places I regularly go, like NY, Mass. and Conn., that possession of a black-rifle is problematic. A scout type rifle looks more like a target or hunting rifle so it draws less attention.

Calibers...to me there are only three... .223, .308 and 7.62x39... Unless one has some 62 grain SS109 type penetrator ammo good luck even getting trough a windshield with enough bullet left to get the job done. There is a NH State F&G officer who took a .223/55 grain round right square in the windshield that then hit his badge and broke up... There are way too many .223 failures for me to be comfortable.

7.62x39...great round invented for one thing...killing people. Very accurate way past 400 yards and mild recoil. Excellent hard cover penetration.

.308...king of the hill... Recoil is manageable, fantastically accurate and tons of bullet choices...

I like a scout type rifle with a 2-7 Burris IER scope with the ballistic drop reticle. In .308 it is good to 600+ yards... In 7.62x39 out to 400+. Both are very fast up close also...

A pistol caliber levergun is also hard to beat. XS makes a scout mount and once used to it one can run very fast...

Bob

If you cut the link beyond the first big number, it'll light up and work with one click.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11462608

DF

For protection against people, the standard AR is going to be extremely hard to beat. In the distances you might be likely to be engaged/engage someone, their light recoil, quick handling characteristics, and large on board capacity all are advantageous to the end user.

There is very good reason why so many pros who can choose to use practically anything, choose a simple M4 type weapon platform.

If I am dealing with riots, urban/suburban areas, home defense, getting from point AtoB, and/or any other unknown/unforeseen task that involves being mobile, the generalist M4/Recce type rifle is going to be the preferred long gun.

RJM brings up a very valid point though, especially for those living in or near Socialist enclaves, where ownership of an AR is either forbidden or severely restricted, then perhaps something like the polymer stocked ruger scout rifle makes some sense. I don't know of too many places that forbid scout rifles (yet).

I am very much a .308 bolt gun fan but when the action gets fast, a bolt action is poor runner up to a semi auto.

A single .223 soft point/hollow point, whatever, will make the recipient rethink his course of action if he has the ability to do so.

As far as barriers go, there is no contest, the better .308 rounds totally dominate. Given that you are using similar projectiles, it is purely a horsepower issue. That said, it really is rarely an issue from what I have seen in reality.

Being deliberate in your actions, making your first shot your best shot, and THINKING your way through a problem is usually what takes care of business.

This.


Okie John

Very good stuff by all, first and foremost was thinking protection at closer ranges. Never meant to infer a bolt had advantages, but as some mentioned there are or may be situations where one is not allowed or frowned upon. If legal, nothing beyond that probably matters.

I thought of the penetration issue when seeing fmj 9mm fail to penetrate heavy gauge sheet metal. Not that I expected it to, but it barely made a dent.....while out plinking. It was quite thick and some sort of steel I am sure.

Very good info by all, appreciate the replies and info. The way things have been heating up, one never knows if or when they might need some insurance.......

Bob in your scout, do you run typical 168 OT? As I get older, the void of me never having owned a 308 seems to grow....I never was a bigger is better and seem to be much more interested in a 308 than the venerable older brother.

Seems like a good handgun, scattergun, M4, and 308 carbine all have merit no doubt. Always happy to hear of recommendations and feedback by owners on those they enjoy and the ammo they run thru them/carry.

Glocks are my preferred for duty/defense. Pick a caliber you wish to shoot. I use a 40 S&W and am looking hard at a 45 acp for accuracy and different recoil impulse but really like the 40 S&W. Choose solid ammunition from Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Federal HST, ect.

Shotgun-Remington 870 or Benelli would be my choices. 12 gauge is the standard but a 20 gauge would work fine also. Love the Federal Flite Control Wad with 00 Buck or any brand thats reasonably accurate with slugs. I used Remington slugs and shot out to 75 yards with a bead sight and managed to hit a man size silhouette without issue.

M4-I use Stag with anything from 55-62 grain ammunition. I also like the bonded bullets for defense use.

AK/SKS variants are another option. My buddy who is a combat vet gave up on the 5.56 and went with a AK variant after being shot at by the caliber. He was, personally way more impressed with it then the 5.56.

308 Carbine would be LMT MWSE or Armalite for that caliber.

I'm a big fan of the bolt action rifle and of the scout rifle idea. But, frankly, the scout rifle was designed as an all around rifle, equally useful by a lone man either hunting or dealing with human threats. It's at it's best when used in the wide open spaces.
Defending one's home, either inside or outside of it, or dealing with bad guys at close range, it not it's strong suit.
My choice for social work would be the Springfield Armory M1A Socom 16. It's a .308, so it can deal with barriers, etc. It can take a wide variety of sights. They are remarkably controlable and very accurate. What surprised me was how soft the recoil is and how really good the triggers are. You might try one and see for yourself. E

Good stuff folks, thanks for the input.

If you can't manage to make a bolt action rifle work out for you in a bad situation the problem likely ain't the bolt action rifle.

A suppressor is a valuable tool. If you can own one in your state, I highly recommend you purchasing one if you haven't already.. Avoid creating sound, shadow, shine, and silhouette in any situation, social or not if forced into a situation.

A suppressed .22lr at 50 yards produces louder sound upon target impact, and a suppressed 5.56/.223 and .308 sounds similar to a .22lr HV unsuppressed.

As a homestead protection rifle, I personally wouldn't steer away from an AR or similar semi automatic carbine chambered in a center fire rifle cartridge.

With all said, I carry a .223 bolt under my trucks back seat with a few spare loaded mags and enough SP ammo to remove me from any threat. Keeps me legal traveling in most states if I need to hit the road.

YMMV.

65BR...

In the .308 Scouts I use handloaded 165 Hornady SST, 165 Hornady BTSP or 168 Sierra Match King bullets with 46 grains of Winchester 748. Gets 2750+- fps from a 20" barrel. For factory it is PRVI 168 Match or Federal 168 GM Match. I did end up with a bunch of Federal 147 grain ball and SP ammo from a friend that was moving that will sometimes get used.

You are correct in your "basic battery"...

Handgun of choice..
Pump or semi-auto shotgun of choice..
M4...
.308 bolt gun...


For self-defense you would have about all the bases covered...



As to .223 ammo...after talking with several friends who served in the sandbox I now use only one round...75 grain HPs... Bought a bunch of PRVI Match before the crunch. Extremely accurate and has enough weight to get into cars where 55-62 fail, My friends said that on shots over 200 yards the difference in putting people on the ground vs. 62s is amazing..


Bob

Not sure where or what your social work might be. I would look at the U.S. MIlitary standards and go from there. As mentioned, they still do more field testing than the average forum member has in these work assignments. Get you a 9mm pistol, a proper shotgun, and a M4' (may want to add a m203 grenade launcher) and you will be set. Next thing you will need is to be mentally prepared as you may find this is not as easy as it sounds. As for the bolt, still used for sniper work. That would move it down your list I would think.

That 203 comment is funny

Good info gang- thanks, DV, what DBM bolt are you running?

For defensive, home protection hands down a shotgun is my choice. If I were put on the offensive I would go with an AR.

I see no place in the modern world for a bolt action other than for recreational use.

g

I'm running a Howa Mini Action LWT model w/Vortex Diamonback 3-9 scope. Whitakers is selling those rifles bellow dealer/distributor (Jerrys, RSR, Davidsons, etc) cost at $329..

While I agree that an AR-15 platform is an ideal fit for original poster concerns, my concern is that future legislature is going to make this choice an unfavorable one. Compound it with the sheeple who elected these politicians to keep them "safe" who have a negative image of the AR due the media/news and PR has caused me to hold off on purchasing an AR even though the current state I live is AR friendly.

Around 1970, TXDPS bought a few sniper rifles deemed to be longer range and more accurate than the standard issue .30-30. The powers that be bought Remington 700 ADLs in .243. When I was promoted to captain in 1980, I inherited one of those needing a scope. I installed a Weaver MicroTrac 4X. After sight in, I expected that ADL to produce dime size groups @ 100, which it routinely did with 100 grain factory ammo. The agency later went to some custom built .308s, but I kept the .243. The new expensive rifles were likely better at long range, but were no more accurate than mine.

I don't think a 20" barrel would drop a lot of velocity.

Best, Jack

Have to look at my records but I believe the Federal and PRVI 168 Match ammo I have shot has run 2560+- from a 20" barrel...my handloads with the same bullet are 2730+-...

Much prefer a 20" tube over the 24-26" ones that are out on most long range .308s..especially if one is using a suppressor. I have six .308s and except for the 24" TC Encore all the bolt guns run 16.5-20". Looking for an AR10 with a 20" barrel...had a DPMS Panther 18.5" that was a great shooter but sold it to a friend...

Bob

Im going with what Mackay says. I always saw the 'social' bolt action to be something to keep the guys with semi-autos at bay with...hopefully from hundreds of yards.