How many of you sell 'close range' bolt rifles if they do not shoot 1" or less at 100y with hand loaded ammo?

I recently sold rifles that I never used for longer range shooting but was just not satisfied with how shot groups. I know shooting groups is not everything but it is kind of satisfying picking up any one of your rifles and shooting a decent group with it.

Pieter

Like a shotgun choke, what's most important is not the markings, full, mod, etc., but how it actually performs on a pattern board. Having a hunting rifle that will bench sub-moa groups is nice, but what is more important is how that rifle fits, handles, and shoots from field positions. Sometimes the table turns, and that bench gun proves finicky from varied field positions, whereas that 1.5moa gun is not finicky and is easy to shoot well from most any position.

So, start thinking of your rifles benched under ideal conditions like a choke marking. Before you proclaim that sub-moa gun a keeper, and that 1.5moa gun a goner, run those guns through some realistic drills, close range to far, shooting field positions, and then make a judgement.

I sell a rifle if I don't have confidence in it. Whether it is the mechanical accuracy based on the hardware or the software interface of how it fits my body, if I cannot get it to perform in the field for me it hits the road.

I had a very accurate model 7 that was fantastic in concept, pacnor barrel, wildcat stock, great groups from a bench and I missed "easy shots" on deer three years in a row. I am convinced it was jinxed as a wedding gift from my now ex-wife. It went down the road and replaced by a tikka. At one point I had 72 straight pigs so the tikka clearly has mojo that the model 7 did not have....

I gave up chasing tiny groups many years ago and began chasing consistency. I'd rather have a 2" gun that fits me and I shoot well in all situations than one that does great off the bench but is not well suited for all positions.

I'm a hunter, not a sniper. I hold my shots at unwounded big game to 300 yards or less. Even when I lived in wide open sage brush country I had far more shots under 200 yards than I had over that distance.

Yes, I love to see my rifles shoot tiny groups and I work toward the smallest groups possible during load development but If a rifle only shoots 1.5-2", but it's dependably consistent at it and comfortable to shoot in field positions and scenarios, it's a keeper.

I'll even forgive 3 inch groups from some of my older guns as long as they will produce that group consistently. Of course I'll limit my shooting to the ranges those rifles are most suited.

I like one that will shoot at least a 1" group. Give you confidence. I really like the L-61 Sako's. Everyone I have had would really shoot. Especially the older ones with Bofor's marked barrels.

I like tiny groups. A 2" gun that I couldn't get to do any better would go down the road. It just doesn't inspire confidence like a more accurate gun. I would however treat a very accurate gun the same way if I couldn't shoot it from field positions. I practice both ways.

I've never had a consistently accurate gun that I couldn't shoot in the field. I have owned guns that would sometimes shoot great groups and an occasional bad shot.That was before I knew much about tweeking my guns for consistency.I got rid of those inconsistent guns too.

I've been known to hunt with a rifle that prints 2". I draw the line there, but it'll do. Even a iron sighted lever should do 2".

An example is a bolt gun I hunted for a couple years, killed maybe eight deer with it. It wasn't until after running out of loads realized what I had done. I had just picked a load, checked it quick on the home range, saw it was inside 2" and loaded up a couple boxes. It was supposed to be a backup for a last minute trip out of town. Wound up hunting it and liking it. Matter of fact I loaned it to someone and they killed one with that loose grouping load, too. Never bothered to work up a tight grouper until I ran out.

That's for a 300 yard hunting rifle. Longer range target play guns are another story.

I shoot good groups with all of my rifles. I've sold many an accurate rifle as well....

I have an X-wife that I would trade for 72 pigs ;-)

I had an early A-Bolt in .338 that routinely posted honest 3/8" groups. I parted with it because it wasn't CRF

I wouldn't send a 3" .30-30 down the road if it carried and felt good walking the woods

All depends on the intended purpose, and lethal range expectations

Nothing wrong with being "obsessed" with accuracy, just make sure you even it out with a little precision.... I notice a lot of guys post pictures of groups that aren't even close to the bulls eye. Accuracy does no good, if your not putting the bullet where it needs to go:




The "hunting" rifle I used this year, for deer and elk, is damn old, but still a good shooter. This is the target I used to check POI for the load I used to take both my buck and bull this year:

338Rules,



Fascinating. The only rifles I can remember ever having trouble feeding were controlled round feeders. I wouldn't have one.

Gary, we were lucky enough to own a commercial game farm and have friends that needed help with culling a lot of animals throughout the years, thus getting plenty of time using rifles in just about every type hunting you can think of. I agree that the rifle has to work for what it is used for (I have sold uncomfortable accurate rifles). But regardless of what it is used for, it is nice to see that it prints small groups.

Pieter

My primary want from a hunting rifle is that it hit and take the game I shoot at with it!

That means it must stay sighted in!

Most all of my game is taken with that first shot from a cold barrel.

Here is how a new to me favorite proved itself at 200 yds from a cold barrel.

It's not the 'group' concern on a game hunting rifle. It's hitting the game!



Of course my match rifles must shoot groups. However we get sighter shots at matches.

Heck I used to shoot deer with a pencil barreled mini 14. If I put enough lead out there, one or two were bound to connect. That's when I was 14 years old. No I don't have that rifle anymore. It never shot the same pace twice.

Somebody once said " Only accurate rifles are interesting". That is the bottom line always.

somebody once said 'shooting itty bitty groups is only necessary if itty bitty groups are the object of the exercise."

For me, I tend to draw the line at 1.5" at 100 yards with hunting bullets. I don't have much use for a hunting rifle that shoots target or frangible bullets well and hunting bullets into 1.5" or more. My bullets of choice are Nosler Partition or Horn Interlock but greatly prefer the Nosler. I've sold several rifles that wouldn't keep them inside 1.5".

I also agree with the field shoot-ability of rifles. I've also sold rifles that were accurate from the bench but didn't fit me well in field positions. I've had rifles I can shoot quite well from offhand and others not so much. Surprisingly, my Kimber MTs I can shoot well from field positions, especially given how light they are.

I agree with this. I'm not the best bench rest shooter but do manage to put bullets on game where they need to go - even in some tough situations. I've done the 5 sec decision and 2" window at 100 yards deal several times in recent memory. Your not gonna do that with a gun that isn't consistent or doesn't fit you, regardless of how pretty the bench groups are.

MOA minimum with factory, 1/2 MOA or better with handloads. Cloverleafs are confidence builders.

I want a rifle that will put 3 shots consistently into roughly 1", but less is always better. There are simply too many options today that will do that to waste time with rifles that won't. The exception would be an older rifle with family history. I wouldn't be interested in buying something that didn't have that level of accuracy.

I don't really care how it does with 5 or more shots and I don't obsess about getting those 1/2" groups, although they are nice to brag about when it happens.

From field positions a 1/2 MOA rifle doesn't significantly improve the odds of hitting vitals at longer ranges over a 1 MOA rifle. I figure if the rifle is capable of 3 shots inside an inch at 100; then any animal I miss inside of 400 yards is my fault, not the rifle.

Even at very close range I want a flat shooting accurate rifle. Here in GA most shots are around 50 yards, but 400+ yard opportunities are there. And the 35-75 yard shots are often in thick brush where you have to thread the bullet through small openings.

A 30-30 or 44 mag rifle that shoots 2-3 MOA at 100 yards is fine for shooting deer size game inside 100 yards. IF THEY ARE STANDING IN THE OPEN IN GOOD LIGHT. Which just never happens. The 50 yard shot is almost always right at dark and in a position where you have a baseball size opening to put the bullet through. Accuracy and flat trajectory still matter inside 100 yards. At 75 yards a 44 mags trajectory is still arched enough to hit unseen brush above the line of sight.

There's a pretty good write up regarding a .10 MOA shooter vs a 1 MOA shooter on a 20" plate at 750. Gains were minimal.

Lower standards = easy street.

Rman - They can be a Vexation !

Seriously though, CRF remains a feature that needs to be designed around the cartridge, plus some budget for tuning.

I was spoiled early with a 7x57 Brno.

In todays mass-produced economy, push-feeders make sense.

If a CRF is built like a POS it won't work as designed just like anything else.

Pictures like this look good for show and tell, but really don't make or break a hunting rifle. Pictures of dead animals are more appropriate for a hunting gun and striving for a group like this is like getting a post doctorate degree for a career that needs no degree at all.

More game has been killed with 1 1/2inch guns than group shooters.

Because there are more 1 1/2" guns.

Pieter

I can't recall a feed issue with any of my CRF Rugers, CZs, Kimber or Winchester.

Problably more 1.5-3 inch shooters.

If I have a sub-MOA rifle and you are shooting a 2MOA and when the opportunity presents you know how to quickly get it done while I think and fiddle, you will win almost every time.

I agree with HitnRun... bsahunter is just taking a jab at minor stuff. The targets/groups that he is condeming could be sight-in pics and in no way degrade the accuracy of the rifle
just because the group is not in the bullseye.


Larry

In my experience taking game animals is a lot more about confidence in your equipment than folks talk about. For me that starts at the range, A rifle that consistently shoots where I aim it is the foundation. This is sorted out by shooting lots of groups. 1 MOA is my preference for bolt actions and 1.5 for levers. After consistent groups are established I shoot from field positions, this is where your money is made. Time spent shooting from real world conditions is what builds the confidence that when it's time to pull the trigger in the field you will hit your mark.

Oh and BSA will sell an accurate rifle in a heart beat trust me. 😉

First shot out of a cold barrel hitting where you aim is most important.

Today: Kimber re-barreled to .300Savage. What it has done since I had it barreled. Shot group 1 then shot another rifle. Shot group 2 and thought why go past 2 shots, they would fall into group 1. Went to 200. It's what it does. Seldom better, seldom worse. No need to shoot more groups.

When it comes to BG, you are shooting at basketballs and not 1in squares. Lot of room for error, even from field positions.

You pretty much phuqqin nailed it. Replace "group size" with "caliber" and it's the same deal. If a fella doesn't "feel" like a 270 is going to do what he wants, out comes the 300WM or whatever.

Same schit, different day. Put water on the 'fire, because that's every damn thread here.

The only people I know that believe more voodoo than rifle hunters are bass fisherman. Holy crap.....

battue, nice shooting.. You bolt .300 Sav. made me build one on a 700... Had a couple 99's, but I am a bolt action fan mostly.. Anyway, as far as accuracy, I had three boxes of 150 gr. Power Points I got for $5.. at a garage sale.. Two boxes of 150 Rem CL, and two boxes of WW 150 gr. Silvertips.. The old ones.. Never tried for much more than sighting in.. All seemed to shoot less than 2" at 100, so I have used that ammo. This fall with the Silvertips, shot a mule deer doe about 200-250 yards.. Near as I could tell, hit right where I aimed.. I do like accurate rifles, I may develop some handloads for this little rifle.. But right now I have more factory ammo than I will probably shoot at big game.. It may be a could season til it is up for rotation... Plan to give it to one of my step grandchildren.. It will kill plenty of deer in their country..

I remember one successful deer hunter on the east coast that got a new rear sight on his model 94 .32 spl. Sighting in consisted of shooting at a gallon oil can at maybe 40 yards.. Two shots and he was ready.. Killed several bucks after that but finally put a scope on it due to eye sight...

Playing with rifles is a blast, I love it.. But we do obsess over accuracy more than we should for the average whitetail deer hunt..

Steelhead turned me onto the .300Savage. Some say it is the original fat cartridge. That 130TTSX should be going somewhere around 2900 plus a little. Recoil in the 84 Montana is a sweet spot for me in a light rifle.

Congrats on taking a deer with yours. I've been trying with this one, and have passed on a gang of Does. May not do so this year.

I have Tikkas, they all shoot.




P

If they make you happy. Most rifles out there shoot. Matter of fact everyone at the range today did.

However, a couple days ago there was one that didn't. Well it shot once, then it jammed a case and didn't. Mauser of all things.

As I've said before, I have rifles that I've killed game with that have never seen paper or a bench. I like thing hitters over group makers.

I'll be headed out today with a rifle that I've never shot a target with. A deer I took 2 years ago was with a rifle that had been shot 5 times. I shot offhand at 50-60 yards and went 5 for 5 on hedge apples, so called it good for hunting.

Here, there is more time to shoot targets that to shoot deer. 4 shots a year at deer, if I fill all of my tags. What you going to do the rest of the year? miles

Go bass fishing.

I guess I am missing something here but if a rifle has never seen paper, how do you know it hits when you fire it?

You serious?

Some people like to take hunting rifles and grind out group after group over sandbags at 100 yards; tweak 3/4" groups to half inch groups and jump for joy if it happens. The information age has convinced them that unless a rifle does this it is worthless for BG hunting.

I think it's an absurd waste of time.

Some of these guys never hunt...remarkable I know but true. They NEVER hunt. They talk about it a lot but never do it.

My approach has been (in the interest of time) to get to a one MOA (or better) load at reasonable velocity for the cartridge, and with a bullet I can "trust" for everything from antelope to bull moose,as soon as possible...also have a cheap practice bullet for range use and general shooting.

I shoot it at various times at 300-600 yards to meet or maintain the MOA or under standard.

This does not mean I don't "play" with rifles quite a bit and have done lots of it over the years....but once achieved with a rifle I never bother with any load development again for that rifle. I load a bunch of ammo and work on my shooting from field positions.

Frankly I find a lot of the fussing and playing we do with rifles and "group shooting"to be pretty damned boring. I'd rather hunt, shoot at animals, or fish or spend time with my grandchildren..

I already stated it. I lined up a few hedge apples and 60 yards and went 5 for 5 on them offhand.

If I can hit a hedge apple at 60 yards, I can hit a deer. I have another that I took out and rung a 4" steel plate a few times offhand at about the same distance, called it good.

This sheit ain't rocket science.

I didn't say I didn't shoot, but I don't need to shoot all my rifles. A bunch of the older ones hunt, but not fired much. I shot a deer last week with a rifle I haven't fired a shot with in over 4 years. It still kills.

Got it Bob. That 130TTX load was the first-maybe second-load I tried. It holds it to 300. Unless I want to mess around with NBT's or another bullet, load development for that rifle is done. One range has gongs, so it is usually a target sighter, then play.

I ran half the life out of a Nula 7mm-08 barrel on targets because it shot so well. Barrels are eaisly replaced, but I didn't learn anything new or improve much if any when it comes to hunting.

BSA, If I have a shooter that's "not" putting them on target.... I adjust the scope!!!!! . memtb

Mr. Kleinguenther once told me he could make my rifle shoot but he could not make me a shooter.
A lot of people who don't spend the time on the range never know if they own a shooter or not. Hasbeen

I always ask "how does it shoot?" As many do... but in the end my rifles are for hunting. I like accuracy but haven't ever shot for groups. I sight them in and then let them do their job with the "first shot".
Not that I ever plan on it, but if my rifles get sold someone will be getting a low round rifle.
I shoot pretty regular each year but not a weekly or monthly range guy..... wish I was sometimes. Hopefully the long range bug doesn't bite me..... I hear it's pricy.

Owning a 'shooter' doesn't make one a thing hitter with it. A point that is often missed with many.

For years I picked a bullet, powder & charge, seated the bullets to the bottom of the neck and checked if the round fit the magazine, cycled through the action, and was off the rifling (with a dummy round). Sighted in and hunted. Everything was 1.5 moa or better for three shot groups. Only three shot groups???
I'm hunting for one deer not trying to kill a herd!

I've killed a bunch of deer with a cheap Mossberg ATR100 in .270 with a 4.75 Weaver Grand Slam on top. It shoots factory Fusion ammo into 1.5" 5-shot groups at 100 yards all day, and 1-1.25" with my handloads.

Then again, I've killed a bunch with a single-shot 44 mag handi-rifle with a Weaver 1-3x that holds about 2" at 100 on a good day.

In the woods I hunt, 50 yards is a medium-long shot, and I don't like dragging my "nice" rifles up into trees behind me all that much.

I might re-think it when I have to shoot a deer twice.

I like accurate rifles as well as anyone an as it happens my current go to cud killer is very accurate with it's favorite bullet(NBT), but that's not the bullet I chose to use. I use a NP because it's been good to me for 30 years or more and I don't care if it's not always a moa producer. I shoot elk, deer and such with it not p.dogs. I doubt I'll ever need more precision than I get from the NP. I want dead animals not just small groups. I also want a rifle that's light enough so as not to be a burden if I have to carry it a lot as I've never killed a bull elk from the truck. I want a rifle that will put it's first shot from a cold barrel on target at 300yds or so. I want a rifle/scope combination that does not change POI every time the sun goes behind a cloud. I love to shoot but I don't shoot off a bench much because I've yet to kill one head of big game from a bench. I practice getting on target quickly and shooting quickly. Big buck deer and herd bulls seldom wait around till you are ready to shoot. When this years bull elk and his cows broke out of the aspens at 250 yards, I didn't have an moa rifle nor was a bench rest handy. I quickly got in a sitting position and stated shooting when he slowed to a walk. I've been eating elk for a couple of weeks now.

Only thing I care about is the cold bore shot.
I take full credit for all misses, not the rifle.

[quote][/quote]

OOps hit the wrong button.
No way in Hell I'll go bass fishing. Crappie maybe. miles

I have never been a hair splitter, as far as accuracy is concerned and I am not a target puncher. I have also been lucky, in that I have always been able to get moa accuracy from my rifles. I have never gotten rid of a rifle due to lack of accuracy.

I have burned two barrels on accurate rifles and replaced them with even-more-accurate Criterion barrels. I own five rifles right now and they are all 1/2-3/4 moa rifles at 200 yards with my hand-loads. I have been reloading since I was 17 and have not shot factory ammo in the field since.

I have to say that if I had a two-inch shooter, I would be messing with my loads to improve it, or it would probably go away. It is all about the confidence factor and my field confidence comes from knowing that my rifle is very accurate-whether I am or not. It just takes that error out of the equation.

I like my hunting rifle/load to be at least 1 1/2 inches or smaller at 100 yards, purely for the confidence that it gives me to take whatever shot may present itself. All of my hunting rifles will do better than 1 1/2 inch with at least a load or two, but if I could not get a rifle to at least 1.5 inches, then it would go on down the road.

I both hunt (mostly deer, ducks, geese) and target shoot when the hunting seasons are closed.

While hunting, depending on the game, I just grab the 30-06 which isn't a sub-moa rifle, and just go shoot the dog-gone thing and dress it and bring it home. Or, grab either the Nova or the old Win Ranger, and go shoot the ducks/geese and bring them home.

But, when seasons are closed, and I'm going back and forth to the range with bolt guns, I only use accurate rifles which will go sub-moa or moa when I'm fiddling with loads and groups....because it's a different reason than hunting.

So, I really see hunting/target-shooting two different things with two different answers as to "only keeping sub-moa rifles".

Our new shooting bench is set up 50 yards away from the target stand. My requirement for a rifle is a 1 inch group at 50 yards since we never shoot any further. It sure has made life a lot simpler
We own rifles that are very accurate but for short range deer hunting it is simply not needed or worth pursuing