Looking at their website and I see nothing new and just the same old boring models for their Model 70 lineup since BACO took over. Was hoping for a stainless 375 H&H this year but guess I'll have to find a stainless classic or have one built.

Well just because the lineup remains static doesn't mean Winchester rifles have gone the way of the Dodo.....

Certainly have less market share than in the past but still great rifles. The American hunting rifle is heading toward econo models rather than quality. A trend that unfortunately is happening with many products.

Light years ahead of what ever POS comes out of Remington//

...and, and, wee little tiny sparkles of glitter inletted into the stock...oh, oh, and pink, the stock should be PINK!

Bearstalker, Go to your local SW. They have the Alaskan models on sale at clearance. If they are sold out at yours they can request and ship one over to you. Cerakote the barrelled action. Bingo.


Sincerely,
Thomas

Used to I could walk in one of my local gun stores and see a winchester model 70 or two on the shelf but nowdays all you see is Ruger Americans and a few Remington 700 SPS models........Id say Winchester sells more shotguns than rifles these days......Its a shame......Hb

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5451078981/m/7111065722

Everyone wants cheap [bleep] today.

Believe me I feel your pain but I don't think that's an entirely new phenomenon.

Be nice to see some mid weight varmint/predator rigs in 223 and 204. Blind mag or hinged floorplates, none of this removable mag stuff that seems to be too common these days.

Yep, I sure like My pre 64 Model 70's more and more.

I better go pet some of my pre-64's

There's nothing to complain about. A new model 70 is an outstanding rifle. Now look at a new Marlin 336 and compare what Remingtons done to it. They've weakened the receiver to the point where major gunsmiths refuse to rechamber them to more potent cartridges, they're not properly heat treating the carriers and action screws, they have all kinds of trouble screwing barrels in straight, and the wood and checkering are poor. Winchester has none of this going on. The model 70 is as good as ever.

Yep. The FN made Model 70s are darn good rifles.

I heard the the early Remlins were pathetic, but I have read that things have improved. Bummer is that is not the case. Luckily there are an abundance of JMs out there.

I hear very good things about the FN M70s. Damn sight better than what I am seeing with Remington. I hope Remington will get their schit together.

Truth -- we received some rifles last week that I ordered in December of 2014! These were all Super Grades and a couple were special orders.

They were ordered with our direct rep, not through distribution.

Budget rifles truly dominate the market today. Most on here aren't focused on the budget rifle market. Our average shopper will walk right past the nice stuff to the Ruger Americans and Savage Axis rifles.

We have tons of high end stuff on the shelf and turns are low.

I cannot think of a worse setup for a predator rig than a blind mag...a hinged floor plate is only slightly better. Detachable mags, especially those of AICS persuasion, are fantastic.

Stop it, Buckwheat.........


Casey

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Eu amo meu modelo novo 70 rifles! Eles são melhores do que qualquer damn pre 64 modelo 70. O MOA gatilho é melhor, o, o CNC machinging é melhor, é melhor becasue nós portugueses fu ckers torná-los. Entendi? Boa....

They missed the zombie apocalypse.

Found these in the back of the safe the other day. Prefer the older Winnies. The top 270 Super Grade I have box and papers from 1949.

Already sold. Bummer.

1. "world famous" trigger that:
(a) Safety fails on fire
(b) does not lock the bolt
(c) looks like a "Hurst" shift gear

2. flimsy, sheet metal extractor requiring cleaning else it fails

3. lovely, throat lozenge looking bolt handle, "gorilla glue friendly"

Yeah, I'll stick with Winchesters...

I think the situation is for hunting rifles the era of quality large corporation mass produced guns is over. Large business that focuses on increasing sales 5% every quarter is not going to find much satisfaction in the sporting arms market place in the future. Why? The country is awash with good used hunting arms. The number of hunters and places to hunt are diminishing. There have really been no significan improvements to hunting arms in the past 50 years at least some may even go back to the 7x57 and 30-06 . Scopes have seen some benefits from technology but rifles and shotguns not so much. So I think nice hunting guns are going to become the domain of the smaller companies and the majors are going to be one more focused on defense contracts and maybe still provide some cheaper low end mass market firearms.

Some people refuse to accept the TRUTH, regardless of the language.

I suspect that Mule Deer is 'WEARY' of trying to talk to a fence post.

S M H !


Jerry

Well, actually, they ARE world-famous - but not in a good way.

Others above are right, though.. Most buyers are looking to save a few bux in the cheaper rifles.. Problem is, they're acquiring items that offer less reliability and longevity; the trade-off...

After Browning screwed the pooch with their ignominious MOA trigger, the prices of used or LNIB M70s have been going through the roof..which I love - since I'll be selling off a few shortly..

There, you see...THOSE are rifles!

Nice! Mine are well liked by the owner, but most are more worn than those...

My Portuguese is mucho rusty, but

I love my new model 70 rifles! They are better than any damn pre 64 Model 70. The MOA trigger is best, the, CNC machining is better, is better because we Portuguese fu ckers make them. Get it? Good ....

Oh when you talk that dirty Portuguese.

R E A L L Y ?

When was the 308 W introd.?

When was the 7 RM introd.?

When was the 7-08 introd.?

When was the 260 R introd.?

et. al.

NOW, are you talking 'firearms' or cartridges or both?

Good firearms didn't cease to be manufactured in 1964 !

I have & have had rifles MUCH better than those made by...
1967......2017-50 = 1967 I'd really hate or despise being limited to rifles made BY 1967.

Jerry

You just caused a few SCD's.

You can still find plenty of model 70's on gunbroker and the new CNC machined rifles put the old stuff to shame....I do miss being able to walk in a gun store and pick a nice example off the shelf, nothing but junk in the racks of gun stores these days cause thats what sells.......Hb

Maybe Trump can sway Browning to bring Winchester back to America, and make it great again. Then on his second term, he could use one to kill an elephant, rhino, and other big stuff. Stick it in the Smithsonian and sell commemorative models for decades to come!

The "new" stuff is selling below the "old" stuff by quite a bit - and I'm not talking about the pre-64 stuff..

NH rifles seem (from what I've just checked on) to be bringing quite a premium.. Can it be because they DON'T have that pos MOA trigger???? Hmmmm?


Inquiring minds wanna know..

Redneck: please explain why you are so down on me MOA trigger.

Is it because it is an enclosed box design?

I have a couple of them and I think they are great. Granted I don't hunt in freezing mud or snow anymore.

Sincere question. Not trying to pick a fight

I understand.. And yes, it's because it's enclosed.. The NH rifles were a wonderful example of reliable simplicity and totally user-friendly.. Could they be improved? Absolutely. All BACO needed to do was refine the sear/trigger surfaces and they'd have had an incredible item.. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, in typical Browning style they just HAD to totally change it, over-complicate it and make it rife for failure.. The morons..

There's already a recall on some of them and more will follow - trust me.. Yet I do not recall a SINGLE factory recall on a NH M70 trigger - ever..

If I'm wrong, I'd welcome the correction..

Ok thx. I guess time will tell

Aren't 94s being made in Belgium now?
If they moved the Model 70 production there (where Browning had many awesome quality firearms made) people would want it moved to the USA and b'..ch about foreign quality.
If they are moved back to the USA, people will b'...ch about the quality just like pre-64 vs post-64 and beating up the Japanese made guns in years past.
It ain't my granpa's Winchester blah blah blah

WEll......., it wasn't my intention but I RECALL (as remember) the early Post 64s. I actually had one in 243 Win. It shot very well. It had the -early white line spacer & black forend tip.

Reading the 'gun rags' (being PC) youada (grin) thot I had a TURD.
The mags made me FEEL I had a second rate rifle so I moved it. B A D mistake! ! !

There was NOT 1 THING WRONG with that rifle.

Jerry

Right or wrong, Winchester will sell just as many rifles with the MOA as they would have if they kept the old trigger. Where Winchester screwed up is by letting Kimber beat them-and continue to do so-with a real quality LW. A computer program could have the design worked out in 24 hours or less.

It would be interesting to know why they refuse to do so.

Even more interesting if they did...

I personally dont have a thing against a closed box design trigger so the MOA trigger, Weatherby, Tikka and Remington triggers are all fine with me, i have never had any trouble with triggers on any of my rifles and i have owned over a 100 centerfire rifles from almost every popular manufacturer.....I fail to see the romance some guy's have with the old rifle design's, I tend to prefer the newer rifles that have tighter tolerances thanks to CNC machined technology, the rifles that are made today have fit and finish that could only have been dreamed of back in "The good old days"...If your so stuck on the old model 70 open style trigger im sure you can still buy one and install it on a brand new model 70 thats made today and have the best of both worlds..........Hb

Do it right and Kimber would be on the hind teet.

As far as I know the old ones don't fit the new and none are making one that will.

94's are made in Japan. That is Savage_99's cue.

I think most people here know I'm a Kimber fan... the only way I could ever see "improving it" would be giving it a no.2 contour and an original M70 style trigger! The original M70 trigger is a "hunters trigger." However, its "closed" trigger is about as good as the genre gets.

It's unfortunate the M70 Classic went away. Quality was spotty for sure. Anyone that thinks otherwise hasn't been around enough of them. I've owned well over 20. But, it had "the" M70 trigger and was made where God intended M70's to be made, New Haven, CT!

I have a 2009 SC production M70 Extreme Weather 300 WSM. The overall machining quality is better than the NH M70's. I used an Ernie The Gunsmith Trigger Spring to get its MOA trigger to a crisp 2.5 lbs. It feels as good as any of my Kimbers. And best of all, the thing feeds and extracts better than any M70 Classic or Kimber 8400 WSM I've ever had. And it shoots better than any of them too.

BUT, while I could choke down SC production, and maybe even the MOA trigger, having "Portugal" stamped on the barrel is a deal killer for me. Nothing so marked will ever see an elk hunt in the Rocky Mountains while I'm carrying it. Illogical perhaps, but there it is.

Yes, I think Winchester is a thing of the past. But also the present and the future.

I hope they won't have to stoop to Axis or American or various other cheap rifles on the market to stay in business though.

I own two pre-64's, both customs in 358 Win and 270 Win (this a '39 piece), and two NH's in 375 H&H and 416 Rem and cannot call any better than the rest in functionality. They are all great rifles.

Bravo......

I like M70's and don't really care if it's a pre64, a classic, or a push feed. They all make nice platforms for certain projects and some are good investments.

Had to talk myself out of a 80's PF M70 in 338WM today. They wanted $500 which was probably fair, but I just don't know what I'd do with a 338?

I really like the "XTR" featherweight push feeds. IMO they feed slicker than the Classics. I like all of them though, only ones that gave me trouble was the late production classics.

I really wish winchester would re-design the featherweight stock though. I dont mind the lines, its the over the top checkering with ribbons that leaves me cold.

The FW stocks are a bit whore-ish in my opinion. Nothing a couple rattle cans can't fix though.

[quote][/quote]
Or Alaska Brad. We're on the same page. I've got two builds on M70s. One on an NH with old style trigger. The other on an FN with MOA trigger. Redneck did both and both shoot great. But the NH had ths scope mount holes off a little and needs shims. The FN made seems flawless... I put an Ernie spring in the MOA trigger and it breaks like glass. FN makes a great M70, but do we need Portugal stamped on the barrel...

That is one thing that irritates me when purchasing firearms, I do not want half of the dictionary stamped all over it, I would prefer it limited to 'serial number, makers mark, chambered cartridge, and year/date on receiver'.

HERETIC ! !


Red--Blue
Ford--Chevy

I've always like the FW stock.

Jerry

Oh, no, you can't... They're NOT interchangeable.. BACO made sure of THAT..

Me too!

30-06 SS FWT in a FWT McMillan has always had my eye..

I agree, that would be an excellent rig 16Bore.....I love the featherweight stock........Hb

how about a nice new Timney trigger? I bet its enclosed though so i guess that would be out of consideration too..........Hb

Check around - and you'll find a lot of Timney owners that are unhappy with theirs after a period of time..

Think about something for a minute.. Nearly everybody considers Mausers to be an exceptional rifle in design and function. In fact, many rifle makers have basically copied that design - and the NH Winchesters were one of 'em.

Note the design of the Mauser trigger. Is THAT enclosed?

Here's the blowup:



See how simple that is? Simple function, very few parts, easy to clean, easy to service/or fix in the field, strong & reliable.

The NH M70 was designed with the same idea in mind.. Simple, easy to adjust, user-friendly, AND reliable. Compare that to Remington which has more trigger recalls than Carter has liver pills - not to mention the lawsuits involved.. Now, if the owners of rifles with enclosed triggers were as careful, fussy and maintenance-minded as you and I (and the majority of shooters on this site) there won't be much trouble.. I can't speak for you, but when I'm done with a rifle at the end of the day I usually take it out of the stock, check/inspect/lube (if necessary) and put it back in the stock for a final wipe-down of exterior surfaces.

But 75% ++ of owners of those same firearms usually don't remove 'em from the stocks more than once/twice in their lifetimes..not to mention doing a rudimentary cleaning. Guess which system's gonna fail first?

See what I mean?

Redneck: Based upon your experience, are there any good/workable triggers rolling off the assembly line today?

Not trying to flare-up anyone, just getting ready to purchase a couple more rifles.

PM me if you'd like.

I honestly am not familiar with all of them - since I primarily work with M70s, M700s..

But one comes to mind - in fact I just worked on it - a M77 Ruger..

Is it the BEST trigger? No. But is it rather simple in design? Yes. Is it an open-design? Pretty much, yes. Is it user-friendly (cleaning/maintaining)? Yes.. Can it be improved (kits available/gunsmith work)? Yes..

Remove from the stock and place it aside.. ONE simple pin to slide out and the trigger drops free, along with it's spring. It's now open enough to clean most areas. One pin holding the safety lever and sear in place.. Push the pin from the opposite side of the safety just enough to free the sear and now the entire area's open for cleaning and lubrication.. Easy peasy.. Putting it all back together can usually be accomplished via your fingers.. Once in a while a small punch helps to move the sear pin.

Doesn't get much simpler..

I don't think Ruger uses that trigger anymore...

I am open minded about the M70s but I'm down to a handful at the moment. I kinda like the Featherweight stock. OK it's a bit flamboyant even whorish but then a lady has to make a living too.

BTW - I didn't mention RUGER firearms. When were they introd.?

It appears that they do. From their website:



Just like the one I worked on Tuesday..

I've owned a few Ruger rifles, but for whatever reason, have never considered them worth having.

Dunno...

I hear ya.. I've only got a couple myself - but then I have a ton of NH M70s..

Some Ruger owners have a beef with the accuracy, the (somewhat) loosey-goosey actions and a stock that can be a little clunky.. Most perform OK but I do think accuracy is a bit of a crap-shoot..

However, that can easily apply to all makes at times..

For sure. I'm trying to talk myself out of a $400 PF Lightweight M70 that I don't want and don't need.


1st world problems.

I like the Ruger LC4 trigger but im like you guys, ive tried several times but just cant warm up to their centerfire rifles......I never had real good luck with accuracy ............Hb

Sorry to upset you Jerry but frankly no I don't think any of the cartridges you mentioned offer any real significant game gathering advantage over any of a dozen other midsize cartridges that date over 50 years such as the 270, 30-06 6.5x55 or the 7mm Shultz and Larson 300 H&H nor do I think that there has been any really significant improvements in rifle designs that significantly improve over rifles designed 50 years ago and I own several ruger and howa based rifles. They are good rifles but not significantly better than the guns available in the 60's . By the way the ruger 77 was introduced 49 years ago and the 308 and 7 mag cartridges.are both over 50 years old. Sure that are some really nice rifles out there but I guess it comes down to what one considers significant. Like I said the biggest improvements impo have been in optics and possibly the synthetic stocks. Even the partition bullet is over 50 years old. Rifles styles are different than in the past with more lightweight styles as say your model 70 FWT vs a 1965 model 70 with a full monte carlo stock and heavier contour barrel but the actual rifle design is basically unchanged from 50 years ago.

I'd take ONE Ruger over 10 Winchesters.

B eye

Honestly was/am not upset/angry. I feel there are 'more' rifles of quality available than there were 50+ yrs ago.

I also see real advantages in some cartridges SINCE many of those available 50+ yrs ago.

I think it would be a shame IF we were 'limited' to the rifles & cartridges available 50 + yrs ago.

Some people like cottage cheese...
Some people like Sour Kraut,,,,

I'm glad we ALL don't like the SAME things.

Jerry

PS -

It took me over a YEAR to get that 'old' 6.5x55 that I bought from you, UP to modern standards.



Jerry

This, unfortunately. The day of high-quality American hunting rifles is long past, since all of those previous ones still exist. There is only so many people that need a hunting rifle, and the supply outweighs the demand. Quality hunting rifles moving into the future will be a boutique or custom business.

A hunting rifle is about the only thing you can buy that's not obsolete after 50 years. Or even 100 for that matter.

$2,000 on something with that kind of life span isn't really a bad deal, except for the seller.

No significant improvements in factory rifles over the last 50 years? Sure the basic concept of a bolt action hunting rifle has not changed nor should it but What about the rifles these days that are made with computer controlled CNC machines with tolerances that could have only been dreamed back in the "Good old days"? Not to mention the new synthetic stock materials that have made modern day high end rifles almost impervious to weather and hard use?....I say the the high end rifles coming off the lines today are light years ahead of rifles built half a century ago.........I do agree that the market for quality rifles has shrunk considerably and will only get smaller..........Hb

V. Hb

YEP !

Edit to add : this thread originally was focused on the Win 70 and morphed into "American Made " rifles.

Jerry

Then why don't the young people of today want a quality rifle?

Bob may be right in that the majority today's hunters, for the most part, don't hunt all that hard physically, but do their hunting mainly out of stands. Yet it seems as if many of the hard core hunters that post here are willing to buy quality.


Back in the day, good rifles were not cheap. A Model 70 based on current dollars cost at least as much as today and maybe more.

Have small groups from Bic rifles taken the place of the desire for a good rifle that has proven itself over time? As if a 0.25in smaller group is going to save a hunt.

Have places like the fire, with its many nitpicking threads on this caliber vs another birthed a new generation that is willing to be satisfied with a throwaway rifle? It works for now, I'll want something else tomorrow. So what if it is only worth $50. 20years down the road?

I don't see it as a disposable income issue. At least not all that much from what I see here. Many go thru them like buying and trying different brands of boots.

Interesting change in values from back in the day.

Good is good, I'm personally not all that concerned with where it is made.

Addition: And who does make a great American rifle today? Many say Remingtons suck. Winchester the same with the trigger. Kimber roulette. Rugars are crude, heavy and should have left the safety on the tang. And those beetches don't always originate with the younger crowd. Maybe the back in the day boys are the reason.

Not just young people...and it is very simple, a lack of knowledge and an unwillingness to save and scrounge for a protracted period of time.

AKA..."I WANT IT NOW...WAHHH!"

It's just a different time Harry.

I'll use Ruger as an example. They're no longer privately owned. The executives answer to a board of directors. Profit is King in the eyes of a shareholder. Even though few manufacturers will state it, quality isn't their top priority. Reducing costs and increasing margins are their ultimate goals.

The American Rifle is affordable and almost disposable. That's the new normal with the younger generation. Vehicles, furniture and even some new homes are no longer made to last a lifetime. There is no pride of ownership. They expect to buy another one in the near future.

When I was in Wyoming with Ruger this past summer, we were accompanied by several engineers. We all talked product and design. Lots of ideas were put on the table. One of the things I immediately noticed -- the engineers were young. I felt like an old man and I'm only 45!

The new budget rifles are as accurate, maybe more so, than the "nicer" rifles that have been around for a while. They may not last as long, but it's all about instant gratification.

I still like nice rifles and you still like nice rifles, but I assure you we're the minority. And as bad as I hate to say it, we're not their target market.

According to an NRA website an original Hawkin cost between $18 to $30. Put that in the perspective of today's dollars and you will see that "back in the day" the serious hunters were willing to pony up for quality.

I'm sure you have it right.

Yep, Smoker is right........Hb

Ruger didn't know what they had when they dropped the RSM Express rifles. They should have kept producing them.

Savage didn't know what they had when they dropped their model 99. Should have made them limited and give them really good wood.

Winchester still makes a rifle. However, I went through three Alaskans and only one had a 3.5lb trigger pull. One had a 4.5 lb trigger pull and the third had 6.5 lb trigger pull. That probably won't do. The Ruger American Rifles are accurate but put them through hell and I don't know if they would take it.

Depending on the area of the country you live...the Model 70 has been a thing of the past long before BACO took over. Which may have something to do with BACO taking over...

Care to explain?

"Addition: And who does make a great American rifle today?"
quote from battue:

I would answer with the Montana Rifle Co. 1999 X2. I have two of them and the only thing I can find to "complain" about is the weight. The weight is really not a factor to me, but others seem to think they are too heavy.

Plus they have many features similar to the Winchester 70 and don't weigh anymore than most pre 64s.

We've got a generation that will spend a day waiting in line for a phone, I don't think they'll ever be convinced that something should be almost a permanent fixture. Everything is temporary and the only thing exciting is the next thing.

Maybe it all started in 1965 at Winchester and had been spiraling down ever since. I've only handled a few pre '64 70's and never felt such a smooth bolt. I'd argue it's custom by today's standards and the lack of CNC and hand fitted parts is what made them what they are.

Bingo....


No mention of Dakota M76?

I think guns like the ruger american were put in for people that didn't want to spend a lot of money on a gun. Don't get me wrong I have 3 Americans they are nice but in my eyes they are not a model 70. But the Americans will shoot good groups and that is really how they are selling these rifles

I have a MRC that is as smooth as any Pre 64 and a solid rifle. A little heavy, but I've carried it all day without giving up. Did cut a couple inches off the barrel that improved balance greatly. Another 2 Kimber Montanas that are slick. One has a little heavier barrel than it came with and balance would be hard to improve on. All three shoot good.

However, will agree the pre-64 70's are a standard for smooth and solid.

BobNH- I've never even seen one in the flesh...

You're mistaken bacon. CNC is used by manufacturers to ensure no human hands are used in production. Look at 1911s for example. The hand fitting of parts is what separates the men from the boys. Hand fit parts can be every bit as tight or tighter than CNC. Look at a 100 year old Smith revolver or 1894. Mated parts are so tight lines are almost invisible. That level of craftsmanship is hard to find even with a custom gun today.

Some of the finest shotguns made today are primarily CNC and then hand fitted. The old ones made entirely by hand are still fine, but the new best beats the old.

A parallel situation, I believe exists with furniture. In the past, couples would make do for a while with cast-offs augmented with cheap stuff until they could save (!) for their real furniture, which was expected to last for their lifetime.

For ordinary (non-loony) shooters, it was largely the same scenario. Now, a lot of folks are using "Ikea" rifles.

I've gone the Ikea route on furniture, but still like nice rifles. The new Winchesters seem to be excellent. I don't GAF where they assemble the multi-nationally sourced parts as long as the final product is good. My Finnish Sako .30/06 has a Belgian FN action, Euopean walnut from somewhere or other, and a Finnish Sako barrel. My Japanese Browning "Winchester" single-shots are beautifully made and shoot as good as they look. I want stuff that works well and, if possible, looks good doing it. Right now, that requirement is being met by the stuff I mentioned, along with a few new-ish Ruger Hawkeyes, a Vanguard, and another FN put together by somebody, most likely before I was born. I still might buy a Bic rifle on a whim to play with, but it'll likely depart the same way when I'm done.

Times change and it's nothing new.

How most people hunt is changing. Most of the new guys are afraid of learning how to work a pump or they will miss an opportunity in the learning process.

Like days gone by maybe the TV "stars" and magazine adds subject them to a subliminal peer pressure not realized. Can't deny that "back in the day" O'Conner, Jobson, Trueblood, Woolner, Tapply, Spiller, etc, etc, influenced a couple generations of us.

History repeats and TC Encores and such are the new rage.

Then again, many don't shy from spending big dollars on scopes???? The scope has become the quality status symbol for many. Interesting stuff.

And snuff has replaced the pipe.

16: The stocks are very nice. The metal is a little more refined than a pre 64 but otherwise, mechanically there is little difference. They have a Mauser-type breach.

I think they don't get mentioned because they are carriage trade items and pricey for the average guy.

Battue

Hunting has crossed to a skateboard, Supercross, flat brim, $500 techno Ralph Lauren camo outfit and the antler backpack stuffed selfie in front of a vast horizon to end up on Instagram bullschit look at me I'm joe long range mentality. Phuqq Kuiu nation.

Bob

Didn't see any sort of stainless, but they are nice looking deals. Way outta my wheelhouse though.

That's just what I was thinking.

Skateboarding, Supercross and such are instant fun and not much of a hassle to just go do it. Hunting takes patience in the long run. Posted land for many kids here in the East is a hassle and kids today don't need hassle when it comes to finding ways to have fun and I get it.

I'm probably going snowboarding on Sunday. I'll forgo the flat brim cap. I'm not good at it, but like a pump will eventually make do. It will be fun, if nothing breaks.

Yeah that's the problem....they are a carriage trade item....


I think they do make a SS version.

The most primitave activity known to man, besides phuqqing, has been made complicated for no reason other than marketing.

We were a big Dakota dealer at one time (75+ in stock). As a customer, I noticed the same rifles on the shelf for years. After I came into the business, I really started tracking turns -- about 1 every 120 days. We had a tremendous amount of capital invested in the line. They were in prime retail space and it was costing us money to keep them. I decided to liquidate the inventory. We sold a few on Gunbroker and then I worked a deal out with another shop to buy what was left.

More to the point -- the guys that did buy them weren't youngsters! No doubt financial stability and attention to quality played a huge role in that, but the younger crowd just wasn't really interested in wood/walnut.

Funny story -- when Harry (Battue) visited a few years back, he barely left the Dakota and Cooper racks. I honestly can't believe he didn't take one home! He talked about those rifles for the next couple of days.

Sorry Harry. Couldn't resist in sharing it!

I think the young'uns are more worried about 5# ultralights and shaving their balls.

I was tempted, but one thing good about age is some temptations you learn to fight. Beautiful rifles, and one nice wood stocked rifle has always been thought about. Scratches wouldn't bother me, but have more than enough good rifles that suit me fine.

Now, the right shotgun may have been too much. 😳

Addition: 5 are Model 70's, 3 of which are pre 64. The best shooter is a Classic .308W with a Bartlen barrel. A good Smith that knows his stuff is the shortcut to a great rifle.

Young people TODAY are more concerned with EXPERIENCES than they are with STUFF.

All you 'old guys' with vaults full of stuff have shown the young 'who gives a [bleep] about stuff'

I applaud them for that, because they are right.

How may 20 year olds are you around on a daily basis?

Work with at least 20, three to four days a week.

Young guy that took my snowboarding is a hoot. The switch is young guiding the old.

They're more interested in the number of "likes" they get for the experience, than the experience itself. It's a world of selfies and look at me.

But a picture really is worth 1000 words because the communication skills are absolutely pathetic.

We have created a world of 'narcissism' !! PITTY

LISTEN to real people on TV - news broadcasters, etc. proper English.....hahaha Pathetic!

They don't KNOW ...... Ridiculous!

edit: on top of that 40% of Young Adults STILL live at home w/mommie & daddy....

Jerry

Some really do need to be around some of the younger crew. They are not all like you make them out to be.

You would be surprised at the ones that voted for Trump in the group I work with. Prior to the election, we had some interesting conversations. Some were undecided and some were sure they were going to vote for him. Some didn't, but there were enough that saw thru the BS on their own that gives hope.

I'm fortunate to have the work I do and can do it part time. I'm also fortunate to work with a much younger generation.

I've taken groups of them shooting sporting clays. Most will probably never hunt, but they saw a part of something most didn't know existed and came away asking to do it again.

I work with more than a few that are paying out $800 to $1100 a month on student loans. That have apartment roommates or are married and working at getting by. Some putting in 60hour weeks to do so.

Funny how that works out most of time. Non shooters getting to go shooting will get plenty of them hooked

THOSE are NOT living w/mommie & daddy. correct ?

Most of the better hunters up here buy quality and have very good taste in rifles. There is a greater demand for Kimber Ascents and Winchester Extreme Sporters than Remington 783s. The stores order tons of the cheap rifles to make money on all of the accessories that go with them but up here its harder to find a good rifle than an accurate rifle that looks like a Chinese manufactured farming implement.

A young hunter has to have a rifle malfunction once out in the field facing a grizzly bear or losing a big moose to figure out that," Yes Virginia. You get what you pay for."

Yes there are people who have safes of good serviceable safe queens up here that might not get dirty. But a rifle like a good woman should not be measured by her appearance but her performance out in the field.

It's been driving me nuts.

Awesome. For some reason I thought the LC6 trigger was enclosed. Now if they didn't weigh what they do...

Just checked and 18 out of 58 in our department are in their 20's. I don't know all of their living arrangements, but the majority are not living at home. Almost all are paying on student loans. One girl is paying out $1400 a month and finally had to go back home. She had too and her parents welcomed her back.

But correct, most of them are not living at home.

Some of them this is not their primary employment and is a second job to make ends. Another thing is they appreciate the job or jobs they have. They need it to get by. Their work ethic is also better than many of the older crew who have been at it for years. Plus they pick up a lot quicker and are more flexible to change.

Sure. I live in GA. Few here care about control round feed. Many don't care to know, and those that do, do not consider it a deal breaker. Of the three largest gun stores within a 150 mile radius of me NONE stock the Winchester Model 70...they all say the same thing...they just sit in the racks...they don't move. There are two high volume gun stores that I frequent. One does stock new Model 70s, but, sells them at ridiculously low prices to move them. The other rarely has new model 70s, but occasionally has used ones on the rack.
I've asked all of these stores why they do not have a bigger selection of model 70s. They all have the same answer...they just can't move them.

I think its less about moving them than the add-ons that get added when somebody buys a Ruger American Rifle in 308, 243 and 223. The store makes the money on mounts, rings, slings, scope. Its the combo meal at McDonalds vs. eating lobster at Red Lobster.

For the sake of stoking the 'fire, perhaps the $300 rifle $300 scope IS the smarter move. Does fancy wood and better finish accomplish anything but more warm and fuzzy?

$300 RAR in 6.5 Creed, $300 SWFA, Hornady factory 143's. I'd bet 99.9 times out of 100 it goes boom and will hit where it's aimed.


Deep thoughts on a snowy January day.......

The problem with that is that while you know how to take that $300 RAR in 6.5 Creed and find a decent scope for the money and put the package together the majority of new hunters are more likely to slap a simmons or a barska scope on it without proper knowledge to mount the scope and they set it canted without tightening it up and you get crippled game or a hunter who doesn't hunt for very long. They will find something else to do. Or worse yet the young hunter puts himself or herself in a position to get hurt.

32 years ago when I was in high school I borrowed a 7Rem mag savage 340 that had a plastic button on the bolt. I shot a 40 inch meat moose on a hillside and the plastic retaining button popped off in the brush while packing down a quarter. A large brown bear decided to show interest in the meat and butchering process and stayed in the brush 50-75 yards holding out for me to fold and give him the kill. I ended up staying the night on the moose with a coleman lantern and my terrible singing voice as a defense. That kind of incident will change you view of rifles with plastic parts.

You buy a high quality rifle and you know that you need to put a high quality scope on it and include mounts and rings that are setup properly.

Thank you battue.

I like ALL of your response, just didn't want to quote all of it. Honestly, I respect THEM. $1400.00/mo. oh my!!

..."edit: on top of that 40% of Young Adults STILL live at home w/mommie & daddy....",,,,

That comment IS a national statistic from THIS week. Also an 'older' stat is... "there are MORE grand parents raising grandchildren than ever before"...

All this 'instant gratification' aka feel good NOW, shows the lack of responsibility in the 'majority' of millennials.
THOSE are the 'adults' of tomorrow>>> our nations future.

Makes one feel good huh?--frown--cry.

Jerry

If you can't move the rifle, there is no need for the mounts, rings, slings, and scope

I doubt Winchester rifles are a thing of the past . Around here they seem to fill space and sell at about the same rate as Kimbers.

That gave me a chuckle...I'll even add that the hoodie has replaced the plaid wool vest, as did piercings to the monocle.

Not so fast there S H..

TODAY..I liquidated an investment that I began in 2007.

The stock market is higher today than anytime in the past 10 yr. if not ever. The crash in 08-09 cost me more $$ than the JUMP recently has recouped.

Now had I bought quality firearms..instead of market investing (gambling), I could have had at least 'some' profit on my investment.

I 'might' have 1 rifle that I can not sell for more $$ than I paid for it. ALL the rest of my firearms CAN be sold for MORE than I paid.

Some 'STUFF' accrues value. These CHEAP DISPOSABLE POCrap will not increase in value. They are disposable !!

Some 'STUFF' increases in value. (paraphrased repeat)

Jerry

Very true and well said. Many youth today come from broken homes as both parents worked and stressed to make McMansion payments, then it became too much. The youth learned from their parents mistakes. I think this is called evolution. Dont get me wrong, there is plenty of knuckleheads to go around, but many of the millennials make better educated decisions that I did as a youth.

Its the same way around here. I doubt there is a shop in the entire UP of MI that carry model 70's on a regular basis. Locals would rather buy cheap crap and those that don't drive down to Green Bay, or Lower MI to buy higher quality. Most of the local hunters buying cheap crap shot the gun once a year and only deer hunt over bait. I'm sure a Savage Axis or the like suits them well.
Sure see alot of Browning stickers on trucks though, lol. No accounting for bad taste.

Since this thread has moved around, I'll add another. Came home from a workout and someone plowed my driveway. No note, nothing. I may know who it is, but all I did was give him access across my yard this past summer to work on a water main connection.

Thanks GB, that clears it up. I read it in the dark am and my comprehension isn't the best at that hour!

It's a shame the "finer points" of a rifle build are being lost on the Ruger American and Tikka Generation.

Guess when you grow up in a plastic throw-away generation that's your orientation for better or worse.

Come on battue, go buy that man a Model 70!

That's very diplomatic.

In this part of the country there's probably 30-40 within a 75 mile radius that someone could buy....used and new. That's a guess .

Across the course match shooters here snap them up for their hunting. They know the good stuff from the junk.

Most guys around here don't even know what a Kimber is... True chit too..

Jerry, I agree. Have more good rifles than I need. But, just may buy a few more. With the current trend and the opinion of those in the know, they may hold their own down the line. Plus they don't eat much.

Same here, but a pre-64 will often get a look.

Bob, I can tell yo from experience, New England is different than the rest of the country as a rule... in about every area possible. Just sayin

Mr. Walker this is an honest ?

Are those "Browning" stickers or the Browning 'Buck Mark'
DEER HEAD ?


The reason I asked is that not too long ago I asked a friend who runs a Gun/Fishing shop...

Who is selling all the Brownings? He said what do you mean? I responded about the Browning Deer Head stickers.

He said, It's not the Browning guns, People like the Deer Head!

Just wondering if it's the same there.

Jerry

Most guys around here think you're talking about 1911's when you mention Kimber.

[quote=battue
But, just may buy a few more. With the current trend and the opinion of those in the know, they may hold their own down the line. Plus they don't eat much.[/quote]



Yes I understand. I have rifles/guns that I don't shoot often, some I haven't shot in a few yrs.

However, the only time ANY gun eats anything.... is when I shoot it. Otherwise they are on 'starvation'--not costing me anything.

OTOH - they hold their value IF not increase in worth.

Jerry

I'm a 60+ Canuck, and would rather build with a NH Classic, or even a Portugese (gasp) BACO, than chase parts for a pre-war transitional.
The Pre 64's are how old now?

Winchester XPR, that's the competition for the RAR etc. today;
Tikka is the standard that they compare to.

Yet that is Sako's cheaper line.

338: pre wars maybe....but I don't have to chase a single part to build on a post war pre 64 M70.

Thy don't need anything.

When Im cruising the show tables or used racks at lgs in my general area, I seldom see anything that doesn't need something. Or it is priced through the moon. If they have a pre 64, they know what they've got, and won't part with it cheaply.

Still One can hope

Good tip though about Post Wars needing less.

See more old BRNOs, than Pre 64s that get me interested, for the money and the market.

I would love a BRNO.....

They are easier to find your side of the border.

Here's a custom on a pre 64. It has been slicked up WAY beyond smooth but needed no parts far as I know. Function is perfect.

I'll agree with BobinNH that pre 64s usually only need ammo. No project necessary. Those were built by humans who cared, not robots and CNC.

My take on Winchesters is that they screwed the pooch when they left New Haven and opened up the new plant. When they started making their rifles again the price tags were quite a bit North of $700 for a stainless anything and their 94's were north of $800. When a guy could walk into a gun shop and Rem 700's, Rugers and M70's all sat side by side on the rack at or under $600 it was a matter of which one felt best or had the the best features (CRF, etc). Remington kept their price point of $550 or so for a stainless SPS, Ruger hovered around $600 and then there was the shiny Winchester without stainless and stickered at $758. I don't know anyone that's bought a new Winchester in the last 5-6 years.

On the flip side, sadly I think all 3 manufacturers are hell bent on making and selling as many of their low end almost all plastic cheap rifles anymore these days, pretty sad really.

What I couldn't do to those fludeleeeze's, you don't want to know.

Sharp rifle.

Sweet ! That's what we're talkin about. WOW Just Eye Popping


Where did that old school craftsmanship go though ?

I think Winchester is making a comeback, but looking at their catalog,
I can't help but wonder about their caliber choices, and twist rates.

They are mired in the past ( like Remington) with 14" .22-250s,
or 10" .243, .280, and of course .25-'06, and the venerable .270 JOC

^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^

Bob's rifle there is full on custom. The metal came from Winchester when they did things right. I'm not saying the pre 64's were the best (although, they were). Some of the New Haven rifles were very nice as well. For example, they went for about 17 years (with their head up their azz) without having a fwt rifle on the market. Back in 1981, they brought the fwt back and those XTR's were beautiful rifles:



Then in '92 when they brought the CRF back with the classics, things were looking pretty good for them. Now, we have the MOA and Portuguese manufacture to look forward to. Pass me an old rifle please...

Me, I'd be happy to find a used one with a WinLite stock, to swap over to my '92 Fwt Classic .280 Rem
10"

The wood on it is quite nice, but nothing like Bob's custom. Still drooling
Thanks Bob - don't bore me with details, whatever chambering & components went into the build are irrelevant.

It is Truly Magnificent !

No doubt Winchester is deader than bent nail. I have had to rescue three serious hunters from their Model 70's in the recent past. Poor guys didn't know how bad those CT rifles really were. It's tough work but I'm dedicated to helping the misinformed.

I have had two winlite fwts (06 and 270), and both were very good shooters. I always keep an eye out for another one at a decent price.

I have a Winlite in 7mm rem mag. It's about as good as a factory rifle gets IMO. The machining is better than any of the Model 70 classics and many pre 64's.

Let's talk, We're both on the North side of 49.

PM sent

I have seen both.
Not sure how many are buying browning guns. If they are they are driving distance to purchase.

Mr Walker

Thank you

Jerry

Hey that rifle looks familiar..

Funny thread.

When thinking of new rifles, a Winchester never crosses my mind. They offer nothing that appeals to me.

As for the younger generation, they are doing just fine. They've figured out that they'd rather spend their resources on actual hunts, tags, good clothing/gear, and gym memberships. Expensive rifles must be kept in very good condition to retain value, and the appeal of doing hunts that keep rifles in very good condition don't have appeal to many.

I think their attempt at a millennial rifle was a dud. Even with the Kuiu camo pattern..

Coyote Light would interest me if they would offer it in some more appropriate varmint cartridges.

Same with smaller cartridges in the FW and Sporter 70s.

I love how folks like to describe a generation as one homogeneous mass. As if they all share the same characteristics.

Unless you're talking about museum quality, investment grade guns, ie colts, Winchesters, British double guns, classic sxs's rifles aren't a great investment. You might get lucky with modern firearms like the colt snake guns but for the most part you buy off the shelf guns of "higher" quality and adjust for inflation, they're worth the same or less in 30 years.

What did a coke cost or a gallon of gas when you bought them compared to now when you're selling them.

I'd say collectors prices hit a peak when the last generation to really be involved with and appreciate firearms(baby boomers) hit the point in life they could afford to spend big $$ on them.

I wouldn't use firearms as an investment vehicle any longer unless I could afford something old, rare and mint condition.

Funny post.

You don't really expect anyone to believe that the price difference between a $800 M70 and a $300 Savage POS will keep anyone from going on a hunt do you?

In a day and age when these luminaries spend $150 a month on a cell phone, the idea that a $800 dollar rifle (one time expenditure) is too expensive, is laughable.

Or that "smart" guys" are scraping the bottom of the equipment barrel with a cheap rifle and likely topping it with a blister pack scope,is an expression of sage wisdom. Hilarious.

Who exactly cares about keeping a hunting rifle brand new and how is that a factor?

I see these miracle millennials at the range with their cheap rifles,and they are neither great shots, astute riflemen,and tend to be rookies who don't know what they are doing.

If the cost spread between a M70 and an RAR is keeping you from hunting you need a more lucrative job....but don't expect me to believe you're some kind of sage/wise genius. That's ridiculous.

This class envy stuff cracks me up but otherwise intelligent people fall for it all the time.

"Luminaries" "sage" your verbiage is just as out of touch as your understanding of the modern world and the younger generation operating within it.

A man chewed my ass one time for driving a Mitsubishi truck because Mitsubishi manufactured the aircraft used in the attack on Pearl harbor..... Was that you?

Bob,
as per usual you're on track. As the parent of 3 millennials I have a little insight. My kids have all grown up hunting and know that any red meat we have, has been killed by one of us, for as long as the kids can remember.
Even growing up in a very rural part of the country where the outdoors are a major part of life I'm saddened by how few kids are hunting and fishing.
The missing component for many of them is a caring parent to get them started. I did my part my setting my kids up with pre 64 M70's, good optics, boots and gear and we spend quality time in the outdoors together as much as possible.
We owe it to our kids to make it happen, the world will be a better place for it, and just maybe we can turn the tide of a throw-away state of mind....and perhaps they will put the phone down long enough to see the natural world around them.
Now, back to winchesters!

Need a dictionary?

I'm waiting to be impressed by the "modern world" and the "younger generation". They impress me as a bunch of dopes....are you one of them?

Go rotate on something. You haven't said a thing that makes any sense.

Buying cheap junk makes you somehow "smart"....brilliant. LMAO.

If you want,I'll loan you a grand and you can go buy three rifles....... I know $300-400 bucks is a deal breaker.

Didn't say "impressed" with them, I said "understand" them. It's an entirely different social and economic structure they operate with in. Good or bad, like it or not. Alot more get into hunting later than we did. Alot of them never hunted with grandad and his old wood and blued rifle that held mystique like I did. Most never walked the aisles at a gun show marveling at all the rifles you'd only seen in G&A, and F&S.

No different than 50 years ago. Some people bought quality rifles and a [bleep] pile of people hunted with old Enfield .303 surplus guns and glenfield 30-30"s with Marlin scopes.

Cheap guns have always been around for the average Joe that hunted but wasn't necessarily a "hunter"

Generally yes. Greatest Generation, Baby Boomers, Generation X, Millennials.

Study their life events and it's pretty interesting. Put them all in the same work setting and it's even better.

Know the hot buttons and it's gold.....

Oh, and I've never owned a "cheap gun"
My cabinet is full of custom 700's, a couple Steyrs, a couple Winchester's, a couple browning high grades, a couple nice over/understand, Colt revolvers, Kimber automatics, colt AR's etc......
But I'd have no shame parking an accurate Ruger American I'm there.....

There were more than a few years where $100 meant the difference in going on a trip or not, much less $500.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation


The Lost Generation, also known as the Generation of 1914 in Europe,[24] is a term originating with Gertrude Stein to describe those who fought in World War I. The members of the lost generation were typically born between 1883 and 1900.

The G.I. Generation, also known as the "Greatest Generation'", is the generation that includes the veterans who fought in World War II. They were born from around 1901 to 1924, coming of age during the Great Depression. Journalist Tom Brokaw dubbed this the Greatest Generation in a book of the same name.[25]

The Silent Generation, also known as the Lucky Few, were born from approximately 1925 to 1945.[26] It includes some who fought in World War II, most of those who fought the Korean War and many during the Vietnam War.

The Baby Boomers are the generation that was born following World War II, generally from 1946 to 1964,[27][28][29] a time that was marked by an increase in birth rates.[30] The term "baby boomer" is sometimes used in a cultural context. Therefore, it is impossible to achieve broad consensus on a defined start and end date.[31] The baby boom has been described variously as a "shockwave"[32] and as "the pig in the python".[33] This generation is also referred to as the Me Generation, and the latter portion of the Baby Boomer generation as Generation Jones.

Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation following the baby boomers. Demographers and researchers typically use starting birth years ranging from the early to mid-1960s and ending birth years ranging from the late 1970s to early 1980s. The term has also been used in different times and places for a number of different subcultures or countercultures since the 1950s.

Millennials, also known as the Millennial Generation[34] or Generation Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X. Demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s[35] as starting birth years and ending birth years ranging from the mid-1990s to early 2000s. As of April 2016, the Millennial generation surpassed the Boomer generation in size in the USA, with 76 million Boomers and 77 million Millennials.[36]

Generation Z, also known as the "Founders"[37] or Post-Millennials [36] the iGeneration, or Homeland Generation, is the cohort of people born after the Millennials. Demographers and researchers typically use starting birth years ranging from the mid-1990s to early 2000s, while there is little consensus yet regarding ending birth years.

Exactly. Generations aren't typically defined by individuals. They are usually defined by events.

Trying to say " all kids today" is no more relevant now than it was 20, 40, or 80 years ago.

That's because you are old and grumpy.

It's impossible to talk about any group without using generalizations. Variations within those generalizations are what we refer to as individuals. As was said, no generation is monolithic, yet there are definite characteristics that can be identified.

Aside, I prefer "GI Generation" to "Greatest Generation." Never liked that term... "Greatest" compared to what?

Summed up, we were all [bleep] and didn't know schit according to our elders.

Ha!

We'll never really know, of course, but it'd be interesting to see how our current crop of geezers would turn out if they grew up under the same conditions as the GenXers and GenYers did. I know that many of my age group fell prey to their appetite for booze, drugs, tobacco, and sex, as well as not being able to put down their forks. My parents' generation felt the same dismay for mine that we feel for the ones coming up now, yet somehow enough made it through to keep the world spinning. I imagine that when the sifting process is over, this bunch will turn out okay as well, in about the same proportion as ours did anyway.

The current "look at me" phase will likely be replaced with a reactionary turn the other way towards extreme privacy and living simply, but well. For those who are shooters, that might just include some nice, well-made firearms, new or old, as their tastes mature.

Yeah, that's interesting. Easy to say I guess when referring to some of the WWII vets as being great. Maybe greatest amount of sacrifice?

Who knows, but the world keeps turning.

It does indeed keep turning.

I'd argue that the Generation of the Revolution or Civil War made infinitely greater sacrifices as a whole than the GI Generation as a whole. But parsing sacrifice is pretty easy on a keyboard...

Lets see:

Average cell phone: $400.

Average laptop: $500-700.

Average home computer: $1000-$1500.

Throw in usage fees.



None of which will last as long as a good rifle, and yet all here are using one of the three and paying the usage fees.

I don't care what generation slot you fall into, all posting seem to be able to spring for a good rifle that will last. Make that more than one.

Grinn'n at minimum.

Gee, old ass Bob being an old ass prick, yet again. What are the odds.

It's fairly obvious that the prostate-less generation has ZERO sense of humor though and that's never not funny.

Bob showing one of the younger generations what a REAL rifle is...

What happened to that time when your posts were well thought out? Now they are a collection of butt-hurt ramblings.

Then again a Bud doesn't shoot a box of shells a year. Almost always shoots a Deer inside of 100yards. Hunts with a Rem 700 .243W youth rifle that was originally his Sons. I suspect one of the Bic rifles would serve him just as well.

[
[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation


The Lost Generation, also known as the Generation of 1914 in Europe,[24] is a term originating with Gertrude Stein to describe those who fought in World War I. The members of the lost generation were typically born between 1883 and 1900.

The G.I. Generation, also known as the "Greatest Generation'", is the generation that includes the veterans who fought in World War II. They were born from around 1901 to 1924, coming of age during the Great Depression. Journalist Tom Brokaw dubbed this the Greatest Generation in a book of the same name.[25]

The Silent Generation, also known as the Lucky Few, were born from approximately 1925 to 1945.[26] It includes some who fought in World War II, most of those who fought the Korean War and many during the Vietnam War.

The Baby Boomers are the generation that was born following World War II, generally from 1946 to 1964,[27][28][29] a time that was marked by an increase in birth rates.[30] The term "baby boomer" is sometimes used in a cultural context. Therefore, it is impossible to achieve broad consensus on a defined start and end date.[31] The baby boom has been described variously as a "shockwave"[32] and as "the pig in the python".[33] This generation is also referred to as the Me Generation, and the latter portion of the Baby Boomer generation as Generation Jones.

Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation following the baby boomers. Demographers and researchers typically use starting birth years ranging from the early to mid-1960s and ending birth years ranging from the late 1970s to early 1980s. The term has also been used in different times and places for a number of different subcultures or countercultures since the 1950s.

Millennials, also known as the Millennial Generation[34] or Generation Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X. Demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s[35] as starting birth years and ending birth years ranging from the mid-1990s to early 2000s. As of April 2016, the Millennial generation surpassed the Boomer generation in size in the USA, with 76 million Boomers and 77 million Millennials.[36]

Generation Z, also known as the "Founders"[37] or Post-Millennials [36] the iGeneration, or Homeland Generation, is the cohort of people born after the Millennials. Demographers and researchers typically use starting birth years ranging from the mid-1990s to early 2000s, while there is little consensus yet regarding ending birth years.
[/quote]


One interesting thing about demographics that I don't quite understand is the pig in the python analogy and the gloom and doomers regarding social security and not enough people in the workplace. In the mid 60's there were about 190 million people in the US that included all of the boomers (approx. 75 mil.) which ended in 1964 and all of the previous generations. Today we have about 330 million people but theres going to be this huge deficit of workers in the US despite substantial productivity gains since the 1960s. On the surface there is room for doubt in my mind.

One benefit of the current trend towards cheap rifles is that it helps keep the price of nice old Mausers within the reach of old fat men on fixed incomes.

Old Winchesters, on the other hand, never seem to go down, no matter what.

Look who's talking'......biggest troll on the CF. By a landslide.

Biggest do nothing as well. Go back to bed.

Before I find someone funny, I have to think he's smart. Leaves you out....

I'm curious if when you first walked onto a rifle range as a very young man you were the savviest, most knowledgable person there? Did someone help you along or even if you are completely self taught did it take you a few years to accumulate the knowledge and experience that you have today?

Looking down from the top of the mountain and pissing on those just beginning the climb does not speak well for you.

I'd love to see Bob waddle his ass down the dock up here and run his Yankee mouth to the millennial fishermen on the dock.

I have the utmost respect for the millennials I see entering the industry. The hardest working kids I've ever seen. No such thing as an 8 hour day or 40 hour work week. And yeah, they all have i phones and couldn't give a rats ass about what rifle they use to go on hunts that most here would die to go on.

A millennial in AK, on average, would be ALOT different than the average millennial in New Hampshire I'm guessing...... I got a pile of them on my framing crews and 2/3's work 60 a week and work hard. The other 1/3 we fire or they quit within a few hours to a few days. Most of mine hunt with used 700's or Weatherby vanguard's from Walmart.

Edit to add: I could give a [bleep] less what they use as long as they're out there keeping the sport alive! They can shoot one with a new iPhone rifle app for all I care.

I suspect favoured brand(s) may be somewhat a regional thing also. Big difference between Alaska (or western Montana) big game hunting and whitetails in the southeast.

I don't see the cheap rifle fad as a generational thing. Americans of all ages have always liked to buy a bunch of crap vs a few quality pieces.

As I said I don't think that hunting rifles fit the corporate model of continuous growth in sales units, I don't necessarily condemn those that buy RA's , Tikka's or Vanguards. To be frank the 700, the post 64 model 70, savage 110 et.al were considered "cheap" rifles when they came out, and there are many of those going strong 50 years later. I suspect most of the "economy" rifles of today will be too in 50 years. Looking back I had a remington 870 (stamped parts) and a 788 in 6mm remington again stamped parts and a ruger std auto 22 pistol again stamped parts instead of a proper machined hand fitted model 12 , mauser and a colt woodsman when I first got married. I would have been fine and could have hunted the past 40 seasons if I had stopped right there and kept them. I have a vanguard and I have no doubt that it will be going longer than I will. Also I don't necessarily blame the millennia's for perpetuating the "cheap " guns. I see a lot of threads on this forum talking about the posters new RAR or tikka or savage , vanguards and I see a lot of threads that make me think that older quality guns are not that popular most weigh 8-9 lbs when dressed out. Just an observation.

People can thump their chest and try to make everyone believe they are superior because of the rifle they chose, but at the end of the day, the rifle in hand wouldn't change the outcome of 99% of hunts.

Pretty much it.

You're just envious cuzz Bob pays for pussy, which of course makes him a PLAYBOY of epic proportions.....laffin

Laffin....

True you can arrive at the same destination in a Pinto...I prefer to get there in a Cadillac

One thing that hasn't been addressed is the expectation of manufacturers support. In the past I think folks expected the manufacturer would probably be there with repairs and spare parts to keep a gun up and running for years if not generations. Not so much today as it seems manufacturers are much more willing to say sorry about your luck that gun is 10-15 years old and we have introduced something new. Not so painful on a $300 rar or savage but pretty hard to take on a $2500 over under shotgun. Sure you can take it to a gunsmith but that ain't as cheap as it use to be. Hence throw away firearms.

More than a few willingly step into the trap of buying an unproven shotgun with no regard for if it or the maker will be around a few years down the road. Or if they have a U.S. based service facility. But hey, if it fits. Always humorous.