"Quiet" cartridges - 24hourcampfire

My latest acquisition has me thinking about this. The 338 Ultra is definitely a boomer compared to the .30-06. For the sake of my neighbors (and an excuse for another rifle), I'm considering a "quieter" cartridge. 22's are obvious, but I'm looking for something that I could hunt deer with, as well as reach out and touch any coyote foolish enough to cross my pasture (out to 350-400 yards).
 
 I know that quiet is very much a relative term, but what sort of cartridges would you recommend? The closest neighbors are a good 1/4 mile away and shooting is legal. While I'm still going to shoot the Ultra, I'd like to find something less obnoxious to shoot more often. I've been eyeballing a 260 Rem, but have NO experience shooting it. From limited experience and hearsay, I know that some of the "smaller" stuff can have quite a crack. Thoughts?
 
 How about the rifle itself? Heavy contour vs. light, barrel length, etc. might make a difference to the shooter, but how about bystanders?
 
 Thanks!

#3 contour, 26" .25-284. No coyotes or deer have complained at all clear out to 535 yards. Oh, did I mention prairie dogs and rock chucks fly...I mean, think quite highly of it as well? You gotta at LEAST go .243 bore to have fun on the bigger stuff (grin). Second choice would be a .243 Ackley. Either one pitches 70-75 grain Vmax bullets at 3600 fps+. The #3 contour gives you plenty of barrel stiffness and weight out front, but is FAR from cumbersome in the woods. You know where you can shoot one....a LOT [Linked Image]

. Flinch

Muley Stalker, several years ago there was a development by the Army, I believe, for a cartridge called the 300 Whisper. It was to be used by snipers. Perhaps that wildcat would work for you. I recall that it was 30 caliber using extremely heavy bullets to keep the velocity down and also the noise. Perhaps somebody can add more details, if of interest to you. While not designed as being flat shooting, the point was that if you knew the range you could either hold-over or change your scope setting.

Flinchy covered it quite well. One point is,the longer the barrel...the quieter it will be for the shooter. A #3 contour 26" bbl sounds about right. I understand the 243 is very popular down under as a Kangeroo round. [Linked Image]

Since I always wear hearing protection when I shoot from the house, I'm more interested in what the other guy hears. Rolly, the whisper sounds interesting. I don't mind lobbing them in. It'd be good practice -- put an elevation turret on something like a 6x42 and practice ranging the target, adjusting the turret and smacking the target

. I'll have to look at that...

Cheaha, you brought up a very good point. Dang! I have to wait and see if I'm going to be living down under before I make any more rifle decisions. IF (the big if) I can take a bolt action down there with me, I'll likely take the 06 and leave the Ultra here so I don't need to bring a rifle home to hunt. Other rifles will go on hold until I return.

24in barrel 250 savage would work just fine. 87gr bullets at over 3000fps using less than 40gr of powder. Very quiet. Very potent.

Muley,
 
 I'd simply design a rifle that will comfortably handle what you ask of it,in but a single poke. I can't fathom your neighbors being to pissed about a WELL placed shot,now and again? Point being,you may as well make that one shot count. Many superb cartridges,that fall within the window you mention. Mine would be a 25-284.
 
 For higher volumes of sedate fire,I like the 22K-Hornet,but it isn't a 400yd cartridge. The 223 is a Good 'Un no matter what the hell you are doin' with it. It is a "must have",in my opinion. The 260 is another Good 'Un and those high BC projectiles just might be your cup of tea. It isn't "quiet",but she's a loooong ways from being obnoxious.
 
 Contour makes no difference,regarding "loudness",though length certainly does to both Operator and bystander. Beings you keep talking 260-ish,build yourself a 24-26" barreled one,that's twisted to do what you'd like to accomplish. Soft shootin',extreme accuracy potential,superb projectile availability and a known quantity in multiple disciplines(as well as superb brass/die availability). 95gr V-Max's for when you are cranky at the Coyotes(up close especially),then perhaps some of the heavier/higher BC stuff,for really long range fun.
 
 HTG stocked,24.5" long barrel('cause I love to do that sorta weirdish length stuff,to The Pimp),in a contour that replicates the Varmint Special,good bases/rings and a Leupie wearing turrets. Enough weight to make shootin' it a bunch of fun,but not soooo heavy as to have it one-dimensional.
 
 How hard can it be?(grin).............But I'd still build another 25-284!.................ha ha ha hee he

For 350-400 yards you are going to need some power and there will be noise.
 
 But for shorter shots a 30/30 bullet with a flat nose out of a reduced load in the 30/06 (that you seem to already own) will work for deer.
 
 Here is another 30/06 load that is mild and effective I would guess to at least 200 yards and that's the 125 Sierra with 46 grains of 3031. Thats a mild load and accurate.
 
 Other things can be done. One is just to try to do it with one shot. I think when anyone hears multiple shots they "zero in" on it and identify where it came from.
 
 Another is to build a non attached s-i-l-e-n-c-e-r. I think Ken Waters worked on something to take to the range and put in front of a gun and shoot thru it.
 
 Also you can shoot from inside of the house or shed thru an open window. Be sure that everyone else is out of the house for this one. If I had a spot like you describe I might even build a shooting house or a room for that purpose.

Now that you mention it,I believe it was Rick Jamison that had a "muffler" of sorts. If I recall correctly,it was fabbed out of 55gallon drums with baffles to moderate sound. May be an option,to allow you to shoot whatever you wish,'til you were silly?................

Lots of good ideas. I'm not out for "stealth" mode, but simply something a couple notches quieter than the 06 (whatever that means). I didn't have anyone complain about my shooting until I fired up the Ultra. I'm also not worried about the shots at game. Don't really care how loud they are because they don't come around often.
 
 load development is what is pissing them off.
 
 To clarify, shots to 400 yards at coyote, but 200 would be more than adequate for deer.
 
 I won't build another rifle that isn't accurate. For a small caliber shooter, my goal is nothing less than "scary accurate."
 
 OK Stick, you @#$%#@###@!!!!! You have me agonizing for one of those heavy barrel creatures now. Probably gonna have to wear a McMillan A2 stock too

. Yet another rifle I figured I'd never need. Damn!
 
 Now my problem is sorting through the 3, yes 3 additional rifles that I'm going to have to build and prioritizing. We got the Ultra happening, next has to be the light/medium weight 257WSM. The heavy barreled .264 caliber TBD and a .223AI. Problem is that I'm sure hanging around here that I'll come up with another "have to have" rifle before I even get the next one off the ground..... [Linked Image]

Mrs. Muley is gonna LOVE me!

Hey - I like this thread - .223 takes it. For most of the Horse farms I hunt (G'hogs) thats the loudest they will let me use and from the horses reaction they just take notice but don't usually react much. A .243 report sends the young colts flying!!!! They hardly react on a .222, but it doesn't reach out as far as I would like. For the suggestions of heavier bullets and lobbing them in & with neighbors at 1/4 mile, still watch out for ricochets ). Use ballistic tips and keep them moving fast enough to disinigrate. Still watch out for the neighbors, noise travels far. (personal experience).

Hell,I'm a knuckledragger,in I like to cut to the chase. I'd just call the neighbor and say,"there is gonna be some shootin' goin' on". Perhaps a little "warning" would smoothe things over? If it fell on deaf ears,then oh well,I tried to be civil.
 
 I always gave my buddies the same advice,when they were stewin' on a new rifle(after catching the Custom Rifle Bug). Build a nice 223/223AI first. It is the one you'll shoot the most,it costs the least to feed and it will get the ball rollin'. From there,the sky is the limit. None of them,wanted that two cents back(grin).
 
 No reason to go haywire on Gi-hugic barrel contours. It is easy to be swept away,with grandiose visions(been there). In the real world,I gotta have a bunch of pretty damn good reasons,to go beyond the 700 Varmint Special contour. That is really quite a lot of meat,unless you are going to extreme barrel lengths and are fighting rigidity,in larger bore sizes(my opinion,of course).
 
 For the purpose I like them for(prone,shooting sticks/sitting,or from the bench) the A2 is as good as it gets for me. The A1 is more flexible,in my opinion and is likely a better "all arounder". But there is NOTHIN' like being dogged-in with an A2 and KNOWING what is going to happen,waaay before you touch the trigger.
 
 I'll say it again...she's sinister.................

Red Baron, fortunately only a handful of neighbors total and while there are quite a few within ear shot, there is only one within sight. My horses have adapted nicely to my shooting. It hardly stops their feeding anymore. Deer too for that matter. I've had to shoo them away from my targets before. Even after I shoot, they sometimes will only move 20 or 30 yards away from the 100 yard target.
 
 Stick, you got it. I'll try to keep my "fun" with the Ultra out in the middle of the mountains somewhere. Load development is a different matter. Once I have a few loads she likes, it gotta admit it won't get the same action as others (until Mr. Coyote steps out, gotta have one of those pictures like Cheaha has [Linked Image]

).
 
 The 700 varmint contour would likely be a doll. My wife would likely get into that big time too (gotta practice for those "porch muleys," you know). Next rifle though is most likely going to be a muley rifle. Something 7-7.5 lbs, scoped that will reach out and touch'em (257WSM). Heavy (12 lbs-ish) target rifle next. Have this strange desire to watch a coyote collapse at 700 to 800 yards (sinister???). .223 may come last, but I've always been rather backwards

.
 
 Of course, plans change ...

BTW, Stick that's what I've done with the neighbor. I have all summer to get a few loads going with the Ultra, so I told her to pick a time of day and a couple days of the week that would bother her the least. So far she hasn't decided yet, so I'll warn her when I'm going to shoot and leave it at that. Already told her she isn't going to stop me from shooting. Figure that's neighborly enough. We all live in the mountains for different reasons.

Missed a couple posts while I was trying to put the kids to bed. That silencer made out of 55 gal drums sounds interesting. Happen to know where i might find info on such a device?

Muely, you want quiet, for a rifle, you want accurate, you want light weight, and 300-500 yard ability look no farther than the 6MM PPC. I built one on a small Sako action it is not very loud, just a bit more than a Hornet, It has a good range and enough oumph to take a deer with with a well placed shot a long ways out, and when the perfect load is found nothing will out shoot it even with a sporter weight barrel. Take a good look at the 6MM PPC. it is really a great little round.
 
 Bullwnkl.

I seem to recall seeing it in one of his articles,can't remember which. All here,are brighter than me,so someone will certainly remember.
 
 I can't argue a Hot 25 with you. Big Medicine,much fun and flat shooting. Great combo!....................

Muley, I'm going to be really unorthodox here...
 
 How would you feel about getting a properly licensed suppressor? This could open up a whole new can of fun for you.
 
 If you feel that this would not be your cup of tea, then I'd go for a .257 TCU. Enough whoomp with 75 grainers in a standard length 22" barrel to get them song dogs at range, and there's that 100 grain X bullet that's just right for deer.
 
 There's also the 6.5 and 7 TCU, if you want to go a little heavier.
 
 I also have the article by Ken Waters on his baffle box. This was the one made out of a couple of sheets of plywood. There was no rocket science involved. The ends were about 2' square, and the box was about 6' long. The holes to shoot through were about 6-8" in diameter. I don't remember what he used as the sound absorbing agent, but I'd look at spray on foam. Put some internal baffles in it and away you go. Your .338 will now sound quieter to your neighbors than your '06
 
 Scott

Winkl, now you have me intrigued!!!!! That little 6mm PPC for some reason just excites me right out of the box. I'm drooling on the diagram of it in the nosler manual. THAT looks to me like a seriously fun round!
 
 Slap a 25.5" varmint barrel (that's for you, Stick) on a Remington action, a good BR stock, hmmmmmm...... I'm likin' it.
 
 Now capt_e, you have to educate me a little. What's the TCU. That sounds like a possibility too. As to the licensed suppressor, I would have no idea where to begin. Thoughts?
 
 The baffle box gets to the nerd in me. If for no other reason than to make one work, it'd be kinda fun to try. I'll have to poke around tomorrow and see if I can find instructions anywhere for building one. If you happen to know of a magazine or website that might have diagrams, I'd love to know.
 
 Thanks!

I'm in a similar position to you. I used to shoot alot when there were few neighbors around, but now I choose to be a little quieter.
 
 I try not to invite the boys over for a big shooting match anymore! [Linked Image]

Anyway, sometimes I'll shoot right out of the house, as long as my girlfriend isn't around. I also shoot out of my insulated shed/workshop. A pretty bare bones shed will keep the noise down- it sounds more like someone is banging a hammer from the outside.
 
 A couple of cautions though- shootign near windows can shatter them with a good muzzle blast, and it's a good idea to control other peoples acess around the shed while you are shooting. You can't really see what is about to walk into your shooting lane if there is a wall there.

Muley, my dads got my 6PPC due to his shoulder can't take much recoil. So now I,m up to building another one on a small Ruger I happen to have aquired today it is a 22-250. My expirence with this round has had it's moments. At first it would shoot 1 1/2 in groups at 100 yards. I had a lose scope mount. Tightened it up and shot .5 shot group with seven shots. Things have only gotten better. Load development is a lot more difficult than my 222 or 223 but it is well worth the effort ilove not just shooting real tight groups but when done shooting taking the tatget down by shooting the thumb tacks and dropping the target to the ground. Sort of impresses the guys at the range.
 
 Bullwnkl.

Bullwnkl, impresses me! The cartridge certainly has my attention now. Thanks!

If you opt the 6PPC,I have 100pcs of virgin brass and a set of Forster Competition Dies,I'll give you....................

Thanks Stick! It'll likely be a bit before i can start another project. I'm going to try and meet up with Flinch next month and spend some time behind his .25-284. You guys are a baaaaaadd influence (grin)!

Just tryin' to grease the skids and ease the pain(grin)............

MS - The TCU cartridges were introduced by Thompson Center, for their Contender. Based on the .223 case, they're necked up and blown out. Think of them as AI versions of the following wildcats - 6mm/.223, .257/.223, 6.5mm/.223 and 7mm/.223. The 7mm TCU was, and may very well still be a popular handgun silhouette round, but is also quite effective for that sport when chambered in a rifle.
 
 I'd think that a rifle in .257 TCU would be the cats meow for a small deer, varmint, squirrel, practice,fairly quiet rig. Easy to load for, enough oomph for deer within 200 yards. John Wootters had a cartridge that he really loved, called a .25 Copperhead. It was a necked up .222. The TCU would be just a bit more of a good thing at the top end, but it could still be downloaded quite easily. Wootters use this as a turkey getter and small game rifle so the ability to produce light loads was important to him.
 
 I think Big Stick needs to start building one for his littlest fishing partner right now. She'll love it when she starts hunting with him. Oh, and Pac Nor has a reamer for it...
 
 As for a suppressor, you'd need to find class III dealer in your state. If my memory hasn't failed me, you're in CO. Check out these guys:
 
 
 http://www.grizzlyfirearms.com/LegallyOwnClassIII.html
 
 If you are in a different state, well a search on Yahoo for "Colorado machine gun dealer" led me to the link above. I have also been to forums dedicated solely to Class III, and there was quite a bit of discussion on who was/wasn't a reputable dealer. again, if memory serves, there's a forum on AR15.com dedicated to Class III.
 
 I'm heading out on with my fiance on her vacation tomorrow, so I can't dig through all my old Rifle and Handloader magazines (they're in storage) for the article on the baffle box until I get back.
 
 Regards,
 Scott

Muley Stalker,
 Another consideration is the 6mm BR (Bench Rest). Excellent article on it in Jan/Feb issue of "RifleShooter" on page 46. Pretty close to the 6mmPPC in ballistics. Only problem with this caliber and the 6mmPPC is that you will have to go the "custom rifle" route which can get expensive. I don't know of any large manufacturer who chambers for these 2 calibers.

A quiet cartridge you want to shoot alot and up to an occational 400 yard varmint poke ? Gotta be a .223 or improved with 24 inch or longer barrel . Get a fast twist , if you feel you need a little more whump for that quarter mile doggie , you can use one of the heavier match bullets .
 
 The flattest possible trajectory won't be critical , on your home place you will pretty much know the range and can hold over accordingly ..........
 
 Sides , you NEED something that's perfect for those endangered Colorado prairie dogs , don't ya ?

Add a muzzel brake. This increases the noise near you and decreases the noise down range.

I've thought a 7mm BR with a 24-26" barrel would be great for accuracy, moderate noise, and downrange power.
 
 I was studying the ballistics of this round in the Sierra manual a while back. It hits harder at 300 yards than a 30-30 at 100 yards.
 
 MM

Thanks for all the great ideas guys! I have some excellent ideas to ponder. I'll check out both the BR's mentioned before I decide. Also, I'll look into setting up a bench such that I can shoot out of my garage. Might need some noise dampening inside the garage to save MY ears (steel)!
 
 ConradCA, that's a good idea, but I have vowed to NEVER have a brake on one of my rifles. Just hate the things.

I use brakes on my vehicles only, don't need them anywhere else.

Woody, cost is relative when you are building a rifle, barrels cost the same if you spec a 7mm or a 6mm in the same barrel, as does stocks etc. Figgure a good rifle will run you $700-$1000 less optics. of course it can be done for less or a lot more depending on what you choose to work with. A Sako action will cost you a bunch more than a Ruger. A Rem XB40 more than a Sako,
 Check out CZ they might even list a 6MM PPC I know Sako did.
 The only problem with the 6MM BR is you have to form all your own brass from 7MM BR. or spend a whole lot of time and money making your own from 308 family brass.
 PPC is avalible ready to go either reformed from 7.62x39 or 220 Russian or brand new Norma.
 
 Stick if Muley don't take you up on your PPC stuff lets talk trade.
 
 Bullwnkl.

If your not afraid of used stuff check this out.
 
 http://benchrest.com/shooterscorner/the_list.html
 
 Lots of 6mmPPCs and others.

Winkle,
 
 Should Muley not be interested in that chambering,it would be my pleasure to give you that stuff. I enjoy your keen wit and that's money well spent.................

You have got to consider a 250 savage. Maybe it is not as efficient as a 243 but you get points for style and originality. Also it is a cartridge with a nice little history behind it. A nice little bolt gun with a 24 inch tube would make the little 250 come alive with 87 grainers. Deer and coyote poison!

Sorry I'm late here, but...
 
 Muley, you're killing me. "Honey, the .338 ultra I just got is too loud, I NEED another rifle." I'll have to remember that line.
 
 Stick: "...falling on deaf ears..." pun intended?
 
 Regarding noise, I have a .223 with less than 100 rounds through her. Definately not as loud as the .270, but I would not say quiet. Both have 22 inchers. But since deer are on the menu, I guess you can't get any smaller. Danged ATF folks -- a good suppressor is what you need!
 
 Perhaps the gas operated action rifles are quieter than the bolt guns? If so, you have a myriad of nasty black little options.
 
 You guys crack me up.
 
 Jeff

Well, I'm hoping I may have solved the Ultra issue. I built a shooting bench in my garage about 12 feet back from a 16" square opening. I'm hoping with the garage door down, it'll tame the noise considerably (from the outside!). Kicking around shooting through a foam tube too. Haven't had the chance to try it out yet. Hopefully, today...
 
 I appreciate all the ideas!

Wear a hat and old clothes as all the dust is going to go into orbit.
 
 Also start with a small caliber to test the idea.

Muley,
 
 I'd wear good ear plugs AND good ear muffs if I was shooting from an enclosed garage.
 
 Sure hope no salesman wanders up to the garage door... [Linked Image]

Plugs AND muffs are certainly going to happen. I'll try it first with the 06.
 
 Salesman have to be pretty determined to get up here. A mile of dirt driveway and a closed gate, behind which are two very intimidating (but friendly) dogs. They love the UPS guy, because he brings them treats, but most "visitors" refuse to get out of the car and most turn around at the gate (actually back down 300 yards to the nearest place to turn around).

Rolly has a point. The 300 Whisper is ridiculously quiet. In an age of Super-Duper-Ultra-Magnums, a subsonic round that WILL outshoot them is enticing.

In some European countries, it is illegal to hunt without a silencer on your rifle. Isn't it ironic that in this country (the land of the free) it is illegal to hunt with one of them babies on a rifle, or even to own one without paying a $200 tax to Big Brother in Washington DC?

I'm thinking anything on the BR case would be ideal. A 6mm BR should be enough punch for deer and plenty for 'yotes. I think a plus for the BR case is that it uses the standard boltface, a small problem I have with the PPC. Another option would be the 6mm International, a 22-250 necked up to 6mm. Just my thoughts as I'm considering each of these myself for a future project.

Muley, my AF buddy shoots a 6 PPC, one hole 100 yards. Bought rifle from a national match man, cost $2500. He is having another one built someplace in VA. Much time prepairing brass, weighing everything. You must love competition to have the disciplines. He shoots prairie dogs, retired, travels the country in summer, winters in FL and here with me at the lake. -- no

There is very little in the field of firearms that cannot be overcome if one simply applies dollars by the cubic foot.
 The problem with the bolt face is not a difficult one to overcome if one begins with a 222-223 sized bolt. A small machine job to open up to 6MM PPC (7.62x39) size. My little Sako is a dream to shoot and carry. white tailed size critters will fall to this rifle. Well black tails around here. And it's accuracy is something to behold.
 This style case has me thinking if the 6.5 Remington Magnum, there was a lost oppertunity. I think that round was way ahead of it's time the application was just wrong. So if we get a 6.5 WSM I'm gonna have one. The Idea of a PPC style cartridge simply intrigues me.
 
 Bullwnkl.