Long story short the farm I had promission to hunt coyotes on was sold to a developer. State land only now for me. Which means I can only use a 22LR or smaller rim fire only. I am thinking about picking up a Ruger 77/17 to use. My shots will be at most 200 yards. Looks like a 20gr pill would get the job done. Have any of you used a set-up like this and your thoughts on it?

Quick question, why are you relegated to rimfire only on state land?

Wouldnt a 22 Mag be better?

My 17HMR was recalled and I am having them rebarreled to 22 Mag. It was a better option than taking the 50% of value offer than Remington put out there.

The gunsmith has had my 2 rifles for over 8 months waiting on barrels from Remington. He got 30 barrels a few months ago, but he has two pallets of guns to redo.

Shotgun...

Popcorn time.

Not yet...wait......

OK, I'll be patient. I know it is going to happen. I'll run down to the store and get some beer too

On public land down here were limited to rimfire or shotgun during small game. That's when its definitely scatter gun time....

22mag is not an opition. CT law says no rifles larger the .22lr rimfire. Why well because it is CT of course. Shotgun isn't good on the pelts. Not to mention sorta long shot for a shotgun at 200yards.

That's an easily loopholed rule, larger in bullet diameter or case capacity?

No it is pretty clear "rifles or handguns using larger or heavier than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle cartridges are prohibited on state-owned land" "Note that it is legal to use .17 caliber rimfire firearms in all situations where it is legal to use .22 caliber rimfire long rifle firearms."

Coppied from CT hunting regulations:

"Rifles and Handguns- Rifles or handguns using ammunition larger than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle cartridges are prohibited on state-owned land. Rifles or handguns of any caliber are prohibited on State-leased and Permit-Required Hunting Areas (see Permit-Required and State-Leased Hunting Area sections for exceptions). The use of rifles or handguns to hunt turkeys, waterfowl, or any other federally regulated migratory game bird (except crows) is prohibited. The use of handguns to hunt deer is prohibited. Hunting on private land with ammunition larger than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle during the private land shotgun/rifle deer season is prohibited unless the user has a valid private land deer season permit and landowner consent form. The use of rifles to hunt deer is subject to additional restrictions (see Private Land Shotgun/Rifle Season). The use of ammunition larger than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle to hunt raccoon or opossum at night is prohibited. A person using a handgun for hunting must possess any required state/town permits to carry. Note that it is legal to use .17 caliber rimfire firearms in all situations where it is legal to use .22 caliber rimfire long rifle firearms."

BSA that would be correct. I just didn't feel like typing out all that from the regs book.

Dang...I may have to seek personal enlightenment on this controversial subject...maybe tomorrow morning??? I just got my one & only HMR about a month and a half ago...(no...not blow job) & it looks as though I'm just gonna have to take one for the team...Only shot targets, rocks, clays so far...but I can tell you straight up that I damn sure wouldn't wanna take one of those little Vmax's to the chest...even at two hundred yards...


ETA: I know a sample of one or two isn't gonna add up to much experience, so I guess I'll stick with it all year...

Well...that explains it...looking at your handle I thought you were in MT....if thats the case in CT definitely go with the 17 HMR....

Just copy and paste my friend. It's too bad you are limited like that in your state. I feel for you. I guess you really don't have too much of an option other than going with a 22 lr h.p (one I've had luck with was the yellow jacket, way back in the day when all I had was a 30-06, 22lr, and a 12 gauge shotgun). Now that things have changed I'd much rather use a 22 magnum over just about anything else (when your saving the pelts). Especially if you get them within 150 yards or so. The 17 HMR works but you have to be more sellective with the bullets: Meaning use the heavier ones.

The CZ 455 that I got in .17 HMR is very accurate with the 20 gr hp.

I got it for CT state land also but I have not hunted with it.

If you live near Western CT you could drive just over the line into NY. They have lots of good farms there and allow Sunday hunting as well.

Man, looks to me like up there one would have to carry the hunting regs to a lawyer before trying to interpret on ones own....

Considering how piss-weak an HMR is, at 200 yards, even on prairie dogs, coyotes at 200 aren't really an option. Time for you to move to another state with logical regulations.

Now THAT makes more sense....

Too much sense for the innanet..... im glad im not from up north... theys some goofy laws up there...

MontanaCreekHunter: Unlike some of the few "turdlike" cretins who frequent this site - "I" will answer your question!
Based on FIRST HAND experience.
I actually have Hunted Coyotes with my 17 HMR's!
Answer: Yes the 17 HMR is indeed a viable Coyote killer and I have done so successfully - albeit NOT out to 200 yards distance.
If I were you I would limit yourself to 125 yards or so and only at still or very slow moving Coyotes.
Bullet placement is KEY in this regard to quicker kills.
Your 200 yard "maximum", is that because of terrain/foilage limitations?
If you are calling Coyotes then you should be able to bring them in to more certain lethality range than 200 yards.
If not I would pass on the shots near 200 yards.
Best of luck with the 17 HMR and your Coyotin forays.
Beware of "turdlike" (useless) people!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

When isnt bullet placement the key?

Never.

In la la land.... where some 'fire members dwell...

Obviosuly haven't shot any coyotes with a shotgun. Use the shotgun with 4 buck or even BB and wait for shots 50 yards and closer, and you'll do just fine and have some good pelts to sell.
Only time a shotgun is "hard on pelts" is if you shoot'em at less then 10 yards.
I agree with everyone else, 200 yards and the hmr don't belong in the same conversation.
It amazes me the dumb laws that some states put in place. Someone needs to tell the state that the hmr is a necked done 22 mag., and at least make them both legal to use.

Shot a coyote a while back with a 62gr tsx. we happened to cross pathes I shot just as he was spinnin around in high gear. Hit him just a lil behind the shoulders. Fugger made it farther than any deer I ever shot, before I got #2 in him.

HMR in that situation woulda been a long trackin job or a lost dog. Cant see huntin coyotes with it. And considering how much I prefer the HMR thats sayin alot.

Granted, inside of 100-125 yards with very lil wind. If I had a clear shot of his head it would be a different story

Never had a negative thing to say about you, Varmintguy, and I am glad to read YOU are THE stand up guy to finally answer the OP's questions.... dang cretins are destroying this website! Cheers to you!

Those Turdlike folks are taking up bandwidth, and are as irritating as heck!

And your signature line, hold into the wind, is more apropos here than any other I have seen you reply to... being the 17 is wind sensitive!

Now carry on with your feedback to these here threads, if I recall correctly you are THE Varmintguy, you surely know more than any of the Turdlike folks can claim!


LOL


You can take a joke, I say, I say, Son!


Sorry, not sure why you're busting chops, but it does seem funny to me!


All I can suggest on the 17 for a yote.... is, "head shots"

If your 77/17 shoot snything like mine does... you should be able to place shots very precisely to 125, as suggested for a practical maximum.

Well if they say nothing larger than a 22 LR...

are they talking bore diameter or cartridge size?

bore size, any 20, 19 or 17 caliber is smaller in bore size...

17 K Hornet, 17 Fireball etc...

If they haven't legislated them in positively or negatively...

any of your lawyer types want to weigh in on a fast opinion?
I'd get their input and then go down and get a clarification from the F& W guys....

If you had to use a 17 HMR, I'd reach for the 20grain FMJ bullet first for coyote... head shot a coyote out that was paying me no attention that just happened to present himself at the wrong time...probably 100 yds or so...

wasn't a big one or small one.. just average sized...

VarmintGuy thanks for the info. 200 yard would be max because of a few reasons one being that is the biggest field or clear shot I would have on the lands I hunt. I do call and usually can get them pretty close.

My handle on here has nothing to do with Montana. Montana Creek is a creek in Juneau Alaska I grew up on fishing and duck hunting.

As to the shotgun I have killed a few coyotes with and the guy I sell my pelts to doesn't like to buy them. He will but he rather me use a rifle. Seeing he gives me pretty decent prices and all I have to do is drop them off to him, I like to make him happy.

Inside 100 yards, I think either would work.

At 200 yards, just not much energy there.
17HMR 20gr XTP: 100 yard zero, 200 yard = - 9.3", 1,350fps, 80 ft-lbs.

22MAG 30gr HP: 100 yard zero, 200 yard = -16.6" drop, 65 ft-lbs
22Mag 40gr TNT HP: 100 yard zero, 200 yards = -17.8" drop, 94 ft-lbs

The 22 Mag has some serious drop that wouldn't be easy to use. W/o a range finder and alot of practice, predicting a 16.6" drop isn't fun. Not to mention any wind drift!

I think I would stick with a 17HMR due to it's flatter shooting and limit shots to 125 yards (-1" drop, 125 ft-lbs).
22 Mag @ 125 yards, -2.1" drop, 138 ft-lbs.

Just not a lot of margin for error. Are you going for head/neck shots or boiler room? Don't think boiler room shots are going to be very effective. I've seen them run quite a ways after being shot from a 223!

22 mag isn't even an option. The 200 yards doesn't need to be, That is the absolute max range I would have a clear shot on. I would say that 99% of all the shots would be 50 to 100 yards. So I am going to get a 77/17 for this season.

When I first got my 17HMR, I took it out and shot two called coyotes with it. One at 125 yards, one at 140. both ran off with no blood trail. I did recover both and they were shot in the chest from the front. It was hard to find the entrance hole and no exit. I decided that the 17 wasn't enough gun and haven't shot any more coyotes with it. If my choices were a 17 HMR or 22LR, I would hunt with the 17. Luckily, I don't have to make that choice here.

How far did they go?
How did you find them?

Wish I had the 77/17 today had one coyote @ 40 yards at one of my tree stand I was pruning up a little. Then was driving home and had another out in the field across the street from my house @ 75 yards.

And we're off....

To the OP, I'd be very, very, very careful with the Hummer on coyotes no matter what Captain Turd says...

Your state law sucks...

Good luck to you...

Yes sir many of our state laws here suck and so don't 80% of the people that live here. Of course they helped elect all the morons that have made these choices. I am stuck here a little bit longer because it is going to afford me the life style I want to live once I move.

+1 Based on my experience using the HMR on Fox I would NEVER consider using one for Yotes.

My experience with the HMR has been with two coyotes that I shot at ranges of 15-35 on broadside standing shots, they ran off.

I went back to a 22 Magnum with Winchester 40g HP, great results from then on.

So you missed the head clean?

I doubt you hit those coyotes then. In fact, I doubt your 'story' completely.

What's so hard to beleive. If you've hunted coyote long enough and seen bunches of them shot, then you'll see broadside shot/lung shot coyotes sometimes run a long ways before they roll up. Many times, they'll do the death spin, then take off running, and that's after being hit by anything from a .223 to a 22-250 to a .243. It's certainly takes no stretch of imagination to beleive a coyote being hit broadside by a .17 hmr running a long ways without leaving much if any blood trail.

I don't doubt they ran off. I wonder why at 15 to 35 yards you wouldn't head shoot em.

Have you called many coyotes? The head is the most animated part of their body, other than their legs. Coyotes are seldom not in some form of motion. They're running in, slowing to a trot, throwing the nose up for the wind, looking one way - then another, and grabbing another gear when they get "hincky." If/when they do stop, you may have 3-5 seconds before they're moving again. Throw timber and/or heavy brush in the mix and that headshot opportunity gets slim and slimmer by the second. And remember, you using are field shooting positions where things aren't as tidy as back at the benchrest on the range. Yes, I've shot plenty in the head too. Some even with a .22 Long Rifle. However, if I had to absolutely depend upon the headshot only, a whole bunch of coyotes would still be running after fawn deer right now.

The doubtfull part of some of these posts is that switching to ANY 22 magnum load will somehow result in more coyotes recovered.

It damn sure will not- at least with body hits.. You get the same percentage of runners as with a 17HMR. A 22 magnum is not a 22- 250. In terms of ft bls generated, it's literally HALF the cartidge that the little 22 Hornet is and that's not known for being a hammer on Coyotes, either.

If you want coyotes to drop right there- use something from a 223 on up with frangible slugs.

As for those who say head shots are not practical with a 17HMR- BS. When you call a coyote they are generally looking RIGHT at the source of the sound and pretty much lock on that. Especially at rimfire ranges . Their head does not move that much.

If you used the 17g Plastic pointed loads it's probably because the slugs came apart too fast on a tough target at close range. Very much like lightly constructed bullets do in magnum deer cartridges up close. I have even seen it hitting jack rabbits on the shoulders inside of 50 yards with the 17g plastic point slugs. As ranges increase and the slugs slow down, they actually expand less violently and penetrate better.

It's best to use either the 17g HP TNT bullets or the 2og game point slugs. They are a bit tougher and perform more consistently up close on bigger animals.

Since we're calling bullshit - there it is. Jim, your post strikes me as "pissy." Sure they lock on the source of the sound and are looking at or for it - while they're advancing, quartering to or quartering from, or retreating. The entire time they are working that nose, which is attached to the head btw. I don't see coyotes lay around or sit on their ass for extended periods of time within easy range while approaching a calling set-up. When speaking of brain shots... Once again, head shot means "brain shot" not just anywhere in the punkin' blowing a jaw up, poking out an eye, or piercing an ear. Brain shot, which is a fairly small target, moving, and from field shooting positions. All the while doing so in cover of some sort, brush, tall grass, standing timber, crops, ect. I never said it was impossible, in fact I've done it. What I did say was, it is complicated and will cost a lot of otherwise good opportunities.

An my point was that using a 22 mag will not improve anything in that regard..

If you want to be able to consistently put down a Coyote from any angle and "maximize" your opportunities- use a 25-06.

Just about anything smaller requires that you WILL have to pass up certain shots due to the shot angle- even on the body.

I agree with jim62 here. Have called plenty of coyotes in and have never found it that tough a shot in field conditions. Then again I am not a benchrest guy anyways. There is also some state land here were I don't call at all. No reason to there are enough of them running around at sunrise and sunset. They are pretty relaxed when in this state of mind also. But even if the coyote is moving around a bit at 15-35 yards I can wait it out for the time for me to squeez off my shot. But I have never killed a coyote with a rifle at less then 50 yards. The bow is hell on them out to 45 yards so far.

doubletap on slow internet. Sorry.

Threads like this make it quite easy to separate the Field and Streamer's and the callers who have been in and around a variety of calling situations and terrain.

" Their head does not move that much "....



I love that....

In terms of the total amount of time a coyote is standing still for ANY shot, no- their head is not moving around all that much. Usually they are locked on the source of the call. And, if they have decided to commit and come in close enough to be taken with a rimfire, that is doubly so.


Also,in most calling situations, their head is the LEAST likely body part to be obscured by the terrain..

A head shot just is not that hard to get in a situation like that- especially with something as accurate and flat shooting as most 17HMRs.

Is there a loophole where you might be able to use a muzzleloader?

MCH,

i know of several guys who thought, for one reason or another, that the .17 hmr might be nifty for shooting coyotes under certain circumstances...

i know for a fact that most of them abandoned the idea...

i live in northwest illinois, and can use any rifle that i choose on coyotes...
i still find the calling easier and better on our trips out to south dakota... for a lot of reasons.... you might consider it...

I agree it's not enough gun. I've wounded a few with the rifle because that's all I had available when I spotted them, but when I hunt coyotes, I use my .223.
It's only fair and humane..................

Centerfire is not an option for me. No way around it, I follow the laws. Yes I can use muzzle loader and shotgun. I am going to give the .17HMR with 20gr a try and keep my shots at under 75 yards. I was using a .17rem when hunting private land. It worked great for me. So I think if I keep the range down to under 100 yards it will be ok. According to Hornady's website they list the 20gr @ 100 yards to be 1776FPS with 140ft lb energy.

Use the ML, then.

With a shotgun for close range stuff.

870, Dead Coyote choke, #4 buck.... welcome to 75 yard 'yote whackin'.

A good in-line 209 primed muzzleloader with a scope leaves little to be desired besides a quick second shot.

How many pellets did you get in the 75 yard circle VA?

No kidding... all of them.

isaac and 7X57Steve witnessed it.

So the next logical question is how big was the circle?

30" diameter, IIRC. No bigger than 36" diameter, I know that.

At 40 yards, you could cover the pattern with a 5 gallon bucket lid.

30" circles are for bird hunting and clay's games. Coyote vitals are about 6" - 8". I've adapted the turkey hunters 10" circle as a decent standard compromise size for pattern comparisons. Like everything else you have to hit them where they live or they can and will take a heck of a lot of lead/tungsten and make off for parts unknown. Count only the hits in a 10" circle at point of aim/impact and your effective range will be much better defined.

There wasn't 8" of space in that pattern that didn't have holes in it. 41 pellets, and fairly evenly spaced.

Do what you will and not to start an argument, however, I've found over the years it takes more than one or two No. Four Buck pellets to solidly anchor a coyote and keep them from hauling ass to a new zip code. In fact, I'd like to have not less than 5 - 6 hits in that 10" at point of aim/impact. When I can no longer reliably keep half a dozen 4-BK pellets clustered at point of aim - I call that max range and try not to exceed that. Smaller pellets like T's and BB's need even more hits to be effective. That's my experience anyway... take it for what it's worth to you.

Understood. Not trying to argue; not at all, in fact.

I appreciate the insight.

I shot a coyote broadside, 10 yards, center of rib cage...he ran off and was never found.

Shot another at 35 yards, broadside, he was never found.

22 mag is much better on coyotes and a 22 hornet even better, 221 fire ball better yet.

Keith you may want to read the post or get reading comprehension lessons. For the 100th time .22mag, 22hornet, ect, ect, ect is not an option!

=============================================================

Wow, shoot the messenger.

He answered your question completely in sentence 1.

Seems to me that some people have no problem while others do...
I wonder why that is???

Whyt dont you talk to the F&G guys about changing it to allow 22mag also?

I got our F&G guys to change to rules to allow pellet guns for turkeys.

Try keeping the range much less than 200 yards. 50 would probably work well.

You don't know much. And believe it...... he shoots better than you do.

Dumbshit. You asked if anyone had used the HMR and their for thoughts. He answered your question.

Maybe. But I killed a coyote at 180 last Jan with an HMR.

Shooting one in the vitals at 15 yards is a dead dog.

I have hunted coyotes since 1978, all over the West and Mexico.

Currently teach predator calling seminars.

I hit the coyotes solid and they ran off, do what you want to do, you obviously are not going to listen to the voice of experience.

Better rifle is a 22 magnum with 40g Winchester HP and a serious upgrade to the 22 Magnum is the 22 Hornet.

Always use enough gun.

You will kill with a 17 HMR, but you will loose quite a few. Forget the reasoning of shot placement, because half of the time you are shooting them on the walk, trot, or run.

The two that I shot with the 17 HMR were standing still on broadside shots, I saw the blood where they were hit, they never even slowed down....running like greyhounds.

I read your post on how the 22 magnum and 22 Hornet is not an option, if 12 ga with 3" mag #4 buckshot is not legal, then I would opt for the use of a crossbow if that is legal.

A 17g bullet will not penetrate shoulderblades, ribs, hips, or spine on a coyote until they come out with some tough bullets.

Keith

I realize that the .17HMR isn't a preferred rifle for coyotes. I don't disagree with what you posted. My coyote rifle of choice when allowed centerfire is the .17Rem and it has worked perfect for me. But here in CT those just are not options on State land. I said this before and maybe you didn't see it. The guy that buys my coyotes doesn't like them shot with bow or shotgun, that is his preference and he pays me well and has never not bought any of my animals from me. So to keep him happy now that I don't have private land to hunt I am stuck with .22LR or 17HMR. I will be using the .20gr bullets and keeping the shots under 100yards and see how it worksout for me.

I was stating minimum calibers for sure kills.

I was aware that these are not calibers that you can shoot, kinda like advising you to not go elephant hunting with a 222 Rem.

9 pages and nobody has suggested using the 5mm Rem Mag ?????

Not that I ould consider it the best choice for 'yotes by any stretch. But given the parameters of your laws, it's be the best viable option, for sure. 30 grainers in the 2350-2440 fps. range. Oughta take a good bit of spunk out of any coyote to 200 yards with a ribcage shot. Won't DRT them, but it WILL work.

Yoder409 that is intresting. Doesn't sound like an easy find for rifle and ammo. That is from what little I just read on it. I am wondering what DEP here would say to it. I will ask tomorrow.

Well.........it is rimfire. It's .20 caliber. If the .17 Ho-Hummer is allowable, then the 5 Mag should fall into legality along the same line of reasoning (if reason plays into their laws at all).

The rifles are on GunBroker all the time. The ammo is readily available from Cabela's, Sportman's Guide, Cheaper Than Dirt, Midway, Natchez.......

Some rifle listings:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=249464750
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=249465733
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=249223676
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=249894645

Cool thanks for that info. I am going to talk to DEP tomorrow just to be clear. As the reg's book says .22lr and .17hmr. Yes this state has no reason for anything they write into law.

MontanaCreekHunter, that 5mm Remfire mag is a great upgrade from the 17 HMR, sounds like you have a winner!!! Good luck!

I talked to DEP today and no solid response. He ask if it was rim fired, I said yes. He said he didn't see were it wouldn't be legal. So I am going to CAll DEP headquarters and see what they say. Might be right Keith.

So if 22lr is allowed and 17HMR is allowed then 22mag should also be allowed. Apparently 22 caliber rounds and cases that are as large as the 17HRM are allowed. Given that 22mag is also allowed.

Here it is cut and copied from the CT DEP.

Rifles and Handguns- Rifles or handguns using ammunition larger than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle cartridges are prohibited on state-owned land. Rifles or handguns of any caliber are prohibited on State-leased and Permit-Required Hunting Areas (see Permit-Required and State-Leased Hunting Area sections for exceptions). The use of rifles or handguns to hunt turkeys, waterfowl, or any other federally regulated migratory game bird (except crows) is prohibited. Hunting on private land with ammunition larger than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle during the private land shotgun/rifle deer season is prohibited unless the user has a valid private land deer season permit and landowner consent form. The use of rifles or revolvers to hunt deer is subject to additional restrictions (see Private Land Shotgun/Rifle Season). The use of ammunition larger than .22 caliber rimfire long rifle to hunt raccoon or opossum at night is prohibited. A person using a handgun for hunting must possess any required state/town permits to carry. Note that it is legal to use .17 caliber rimfire firearms in all situations where it is legal to use .22 caliber rimfire long rifle firearms.

As you can see in the last sentance they only address two calibers the .22LR and .17HMR. So I talked to a DEP agent I know fairly well today. He didn't want to answer the question clearly so I am going to call Headquarters tomorrow.

There must be some sort of prejudice against the 22 magnum within the DNR due to it's use by Poachers..

That's about the only thing I could think of that would make them draw up such regs.

It can't be ricochet potential, because they could always mandate Hollow point slugs for the 22 mag to lessen that.

I don't think they had any reasoning behind their drawing up the Regs.

Still working on an answer.

22 Mag is the poacher's prefered caliber of choice.

Any progress ??

Not looking good right now. I have to get a 5mm round for them to compare with the .17HMR and .22LR.

I have one that went through the wash if you're interested.

5 mm rem specs laid out in wiki. Also how it may be a bit hard to find something to shoot it with.
Mexican ammunition doesn't excite me either

They (DEEP) have the specs and want to see the cartrage.

Take them down a .17 mach 2 & see if it gets approved...

ETA: The stupid bastards are likely to not know the difference.

Sooo friggin' stupid... the whole issue of rimfire only and then adding this to it magnifies the stupidity ten fold.

Mogc is dead-on. I've killed coyotes with my truck, but the 223 is better and the 22-250 is better yet. I have killed them with a bow, but I want them dead and a missed dog is hard to call again and often the bulls-eye shot is the most certain.

For clarity in the last post I was referring directly to the stupidity of the state game agencies that mandate rimfire only and small shot sizes for a shotgun. Both are less than ideal for the hunter or the prey and have no real bearing on poaching or safety in most cases. Just doesn't make sense to handicap or cripple the hunters opportunities or the game animal that is the prey species. That last post using the word "stupid" wasn't directed to the poster stuck in this situation.

I simply agree with you in that I would hate to be relegated to head shots primarily. MCK talks about the stupidity of the dogs he wants to hunt. He is in for a shock as to how fast they will smarten up after a few are sniped and a few are called in. The hunting is likely to get very challenging real quick.

Gotcha...

I did not say anything about "stupidity of the dogs" and I have been hunting coyotes here for over 20 years. I know how to kill them and I know how to hunt them. What works out west doesn't always work here and vise versa. No coyote is stupid.

MOGC Believe me this isn't the only f-ed up hunting reg in this state. The list goes on and on. The problem is that liberals will use any and everything they can to solidify their position. Blue Laws they like they fight for, Blue Laws they don't like they fight against. None of which makes sense as most of them are not religous to begin with. Being one of the richest states in the country their are many happy and willing donators to the Liberal ticket. So we lose on pretty much every hunting and gun rights law there is.

get a good tough tracking dog,if legal

Any movement on this ??

Did anyone ever make a determination on the 5mm Rem Mag ??

Still waiting to hear

Nothing like them getting in a hurry for you, huh ??

right!

Yoder on a good note I think I have a small farm that I will be getting promission to hunt soon. Which means I can use my .17Rem there.

Good deal, there.

Updates on success stories and the .17's performance on vermin as they arise, please.

Aw, you guys don't know what you're talking about! Just look in this month's issue of Predator Xtreme magazine. There you'll find a test of an Anschutz Model 1717 in .17HMR by a guy named Stephen Carpenteri. Some quotes regarding 17 gr. V-Max: "hold about 4-inches high at 200 yards and no coyote, bobcat, or fox will walk away"; or "hit coyotes anywhere in the front half (rib cage to eyeballs) and don't worry about having to bolt in a second shot". I suppose that second quote could be true, only because the lightly-injured coyote would be so far away and running so fast you'd be wasting your time racking another round. I used to like this magazine when Ralph Lehrmeyer was editor; incidentally, he often railed against using the "sub-caliber" centerfires (including the .204) on coyotes because they were too small to mortally wound, and the runoffs would become potential stock-killers. Not sure why Lehrmeyer's no longer there, but Bob Robb's constant political diatribes are getting tiring; frankly, so is Carpenteri's bragging about his own marksmanship. Doubt if I'll renew.

RowdyYates: I think you answered your own question as to why the person you identify as Ralph Lehrmeyer is GONE - its because of the horrifically stupid mistake he made regarding the lethality of the 204 Ruger cartridge!
You just can't employ people that stupid and be successful anymore.
I indeed read the whole issue of Predator Xtreme in question (December 2,001) finishing it just yesterday.
I agree - I don't think I will be subscribing to it any time soon. I get my issues from a friend and fellow Varminter who does subscribe.
I am perhaps the worlds most enthusiastic 17 HMR user/supporter - but even I had to roll my eyes at that poorly written article and especially the portions you highlight.
Now, I don't expect perfection from any form of media that I want to be entertained by but I think I will stick with "The Varmint Hunter Magazine" for now.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy