Tell me more about Blackhorn 209.

You guys really have my head spinning. The more I read,the more questions I have. I've been shooting black powder for over 45 years. Started out with the TC Hawkens plains rifle in the late 60's early 70's. Shot black powder with .490 patched round ball forever. I shot that load up into about 2002. I then backed into (long story) shooting an inline. I have a Knight Disc Extreme. I love the gun, it shoots great, and I've taken many deer with it. I've always shot 150 gr. (3 pellets)of Pyrodex with 220 gr. Barns Redhot hollow point. It has proven to be a real killer on whitetail. But now I'm reading in here about 777 and Blackhorn 209. I take it Blackhorn doesn't come in pellets!! It has me thinking on maybe trying a different route. To late for this year, but I'm thinking on maybe trying something different for next year. What can you tell me about Blackhorn 209 and the powder loads. Does it smoke when you shoot it? Does it burn clean? Can you shoot 150 gr. of it, or is that to much? I can't find any more 220 gr. Barns Redhots, and I'm looking for a replacement for that bullet as my stash of 220 gr. grows low. I like the full copper bullets by Barnes, been looking at the Shockwave 200 gr too. Has anyone shot Blackhorn with 200 gr. Shockwaves? How much powder? What kind of speed do you get? How flat does it shoot? How do you sight in with it, and where is it hitting at 100, 150, 200 yards? There are so many good choices out there that my head is spinning. Any input you can give me on new loads and powder would really be appreciated. Thanks guys. Long live the smoke pole.

My son shoots a T/C Encore PH in 50cal. We previously shot T7 in it, both pellets and loose powder. When BH 209 came on the market I bought some as soon as I could find it. Since then we have used up a few cans of it and have never felt the need to go back to T7, Pyrodex or any other black powder substitute.
We have tried from 80grs up to 120grs, all measured by volume. With the 300gr bullets we like to use we have found that 100grs is the magic spot. Haven't ran it over a chrono in a long time so won't even guess about the speed but I know it kills deer easily to 200yds.
To answer some of your questions...yes it does smoke when you shoot it, same as T7 but doesn't stink nearly as bad IMO. No, I do not think you can load 150gr by volume, I believe 120grs is the max. No pellet form available, but with speed loaders I don't see the need for pellets anyway. It burns very clean, no need to swab the barrel between shots. In fact, we never swab the barrel unless we are cleaning it thoroughly. And unlike T7, it produces no crud ring down near the chamber end of the barrel. One thing necessary for reliable ignition is to use a full strength 209 primer, not the mild ones marketed for T7 or other subs.

That Disc Extreme & B209 go together GREAT. You can optimize it even more with a $39.50 Lehigh Gen II breech plug. It's optimized for B209 & you don't use the plastic jackets any more. You normally need a strong primer with B209, I use a CCIM primer. You can step it down some with the Lehigh plug.

Loose powder burns more efficiently than pellets. I doubt you'll see many makers recommend over 120 grains of any loose powder. If you can't do it with 120 grns of B209, something else is wrong.

I use a 250 grn SST(shockwave) but other stuff would work too.

Does that Lehigh breech plug work without having to change anything with the factory bolt? What would be wrong with using the plastic jacket with a hotter primer to ignite the BH209?? Just more questions and more to think about. Thanks for all your input...

It does burn alot cleaner than anything else you can stuff in a muzzleloader. I have shot a string of 30 shots, no swabbing and no appreciable decrease in accuracy. Clean up is as simple as cleaning a shotgun, few patches with Hoppes No 9 until they come out clean, and you are done.

I did chrono it once, 100 grains with a 270 Speer, IIRC, it ran about 1880.

Quote

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS No. �WPI - R12
Material � Blackhorn Solid Propellant Revision Date: 11/15/2007 Page 1 of 6
ANSI-Z400.1 � 2005 revision format.
Section 1 � PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Name: nitrate ester / oxidizer - base propellant, explosive
Trade Names and Synonyms: Blackhorn 209 Solid Propellant
Distributed By: WESTERN POWDERS, INC.
P.O. Box 158
Miles City, Montana 59301
Telephone: (406)234-0422
Toll Free: (800)497-1007
Transportation Emergencies � Chemtrec � 1-800-424-9300
Section 2 - HAZARD IDENTIFICATION
Emergency Overview � Danger! Extremely Flammable � Explosive.
Accidental Fire or Explosion is Likely to Cause Severe Injury or Death.
Avoid Exposure to all Sources of Heat or Flame, Electrical Sparks, Static Electricity, and Impact Shock.
OSHA Regulatory Status - This product may be considered to be a hazardous chemical under OSHA Hazard
Communication Standard 29 CFR 1910.1200.
Applicable OSHA Classifications: Explosive, Toxic, Skin and Eye Irritant
Potential Health Effects � Eye contact may cause irritation. Acute contact may cause skin irritation. Acute
exposure may cause irritation to nose, mouth, throat and lungs. Ingestion may cause irritation to
gastrointestinal tract. Nausea, vomiting and abdominal pain may also occur.
Neither this product nor any of its ingredients are listed as carcinogens by OSHA, NIOSH-NTP and IARC
Potential Environmental Effects: Ecological studies on this product unknown. Some components are known to be
harmful to aquatic organisms.-
Section 3 - COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Section 4 - FIRST AID MEASURES
EYES: Immediately flush with large amounts of water for at least 15 minutes, occasionally lifting the upper and lower
eyelids. If eye irritation develops, call a physician.
SKIN : Immediately wash with soap and water for at least 15 minutes. Call a physician if needed. If clothing comes in
contact with the product, the clothing should be removed immediately and should be laundered before re-use.
COMPONENT CAS # wt. %
Nitrate ester Not disclosed 30 - 90
Stabilizer, Proprietary Not disclosed 1 - 5
Oxidizer, Mineral Not disclosed 0 - 25
Oxidizer, Organic Not disclosed 0 - 25
Carbonaceous Substance Proprietary 0 - 10
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS No. �WPI - R12
Material � Blackhorn Solid Propellant Revision Date: 11/15/2007 Page 2 of 6
Section 4 - Continued
INGESTION: . Call a physician at once. DO NOT give anything by mouth if the person is unconscious or if having
convulsions.
INHALATION:
 If person experiences nausea, headache or dizziness, person should stop work immediately and move to fresh air
until these symptoms disappear. If breathing is difficult, administer oxygen, keep person warm and at rest.
Call physician.
 In event that an individual inhales enough vapor to lose consciousness, person should be moved to fresh air at
once and a physician should be called immediately. If breathing has stopped, artificial respiration should be
given immediately.
 In all cases, ensure adequate ventilation and provide respiratory protection before the person returns to work.
Section 5 - FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
DANGER!! Extremely Flammable � Explosives
Accidental Explosion May Cause Severe Injury or Death
Evacuate the area immediately in case of emergency.
FLASH POINT: Not Determined
FLAMMABLE LIMITS: Not Determined
AUTOIGNITION TEMPERATURE: 160�C � 170�C (320� F - 338�F) � nitrate ester
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA:
Apply large volumes of water as quickly as possible from automatic sprinklers or with fire hose from a
distant, protected location. FIGHT EXPLOSIVE FIRES ONLY FROM WELL PROTECTED,
DISTANT (FROM POINT OF FIRE) LOCATION. Since product is self-oxidizing, smothering agents
such as dry chemical, carbon dioxide, or foam are ineffective.
PERSONAL PROTECTION FOR FIREFIGHTING
Self contained breathing apparatus (SCBA) and protective clothing, to include impervious boots, gloves,
hard hat, and chemically impermeable suit. Eye and face protection. Wash all clothing prior to reuse.
UNUSUAL FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS:
Product is self oxidizing. Products are propellant explosives and are extremely flammable and readily
ignited. Protect from fire, sparks, impact and high temperatures.
DO NOT move or approach containers which have been damaged due to exposure to heat. Keep
unnecessary people away, isolate hazard area. Use only trained and qualified clean up personnel wearing
appropriate protective clothing to clean up heat damaged product.
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: None expected, if stored and handled as in Section 7.
HAZARDOUS PRODUCTS OF COMBUSTION. Combustion products vary depending on fire conditions and other
combustibles present in the fire. The predominant products will be carbon dioxide, and nitrogen oxides.
Under some conditions, methane, carbon monoxide, irritating aldehydes and carboxylic acids, and
hydrogen cyanide may be formed.
Section 6 - ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES
SPILL PROCEDURES:
Clean up spills immediately using soft bristle brush and conductive rubber or plastic shovel. Use caution,
material is sensitive to initiation from sources such as heat, flame, friction or sparks.
AIR RELEASE: Not applicable
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS No. �WPI - R12
Material � Blackhorn Solid Propellant Revision Date: 11/15/2007 Page 3 of 6
Section 6 - Continued
WATER RELEASE:
 This material is heavier than water. Create an overflow dam with filtration capabilities to retain material.
 Divert water flow or stop if possible. Gather wet material using non-sparking or plastic utensils.
 Keep material damp until ready for disposal.
LAND SPILL:
 Clean up of spill materials may be accomplished using non-sparking or plastic utensils. Wear nonflammable
or flame retardant clothing at all times. Wet all spill materials prior to initiating clean up
procedure.
 Material may best be destroyed by controlled open burning in small quantities (maximum about 1 pound)
in piles not over 1 inch deep. Use an ignition train of slow-burning, combustible materials to permit
retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited. Stay upwind, do not breathe products of combustion.
Burn only with permission of all regulatory agencies.
WASTE DISPOSAL:
 If this product becomes a waste, it meets the criteria of a hazardous waste, as defined under 40 CFR 261
and would have the following EPA hazardous waste number: D003
 If this product becomes a waste, it will be a hazardous waste which is subject to the Land Disposal
Restrictions under 40 CFR 268 and must be managed accordingly.
 Waste material may best be safely destroyed by controlled open burning in small quantities (maximum
about 1 pound) in piles not over 1 inch deep. Use an ignition train of slow-burning, combustible
materials to permit retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited. Stay upwind, do not breathe
products of combustion. Burn only with permission of all appropriate local regulatory authorities.
CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO PREVENT ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION FROM THE USE OF THIS
MATERIAL. THE USER HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPOSE OF UNUSED MATERIAL, RESIDUES
AND CONTAINERS IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL RELEVANT LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS AND
REGULATIONS REGARDING TREATMENT, STORAGE AND DISPOSAL FOR HAZARDOUS AND
NONHAZARDOUS WASTES.
Section 7 - HANDLING AND STORAGE
HANDLING AND STORAGE PRECAUTIONS:
 For handling and storage requirements see 29 CFR 1920.109. Also see <<Properties and Storage of
Smokeless Powder>> published by the SPORTING ARMS AND AMMUNITION MANUFACTURES�
INSTITUTE; INC. (SAAMI), PO Box 838, Brandford, CT 06405.
 This product may react with acids, oxidizing agents, alkalizes or amines (organic and inorganic) and
should not be stored near such materials.
 Avoid exposure to sunlight or artificial ultraviolet light.
 Recommended storage conditions -: 21�C (70�F) 50% relative humidity.
 Keep away from heat, sparks and open flame.
 Store in a cool, dry place.
 Do not store smokeless powder in the same area with solvents, flammable gases or highly combustible
materials.
 Must be stored in original DOT approved containers or shipping container.
 Do not smoke in areas where powder is stored or used. (50 ft. minimum distance required).
 Do not keep old or salvaged powders. Check old powders for deterioration regularly. Destroy
deteriorated powders immediately.
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS No. �WPI - R12
Material � Blackhorn Solid Propellant Revision Date: 11/15/2007 Page 4 of 6
Section 7 � continued
 Empty containers may contain residues of powder, and should be treated as hazardous waste.
ENGINEERING CONTROLS:
Adequate ventilation should be provided to keep dust concentrations below acceptable exposure limits.
Discharges from the ventilation system should comply with applicable air pollution control regulations.
PROTECTIVE MEASURES DURING REPAIR AND MAINTENACE:
Eliminate ignition sources and prevent build-up of static electric charges. Thoroughly clean up all
powder grains and dust residues in the maintenance and repair areas before starting work.
Section 8 - EXPOSURE CONTROL / PERSONAL PROTECTION
ESTABLISHED EXPOSURE LIMITS
PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT
 Safety glasses or goggles with side shields.
 Impervious gloves.
 Appropriate respiratory protection required when exposure to airborne contamination is likely to
exceed acceptable limits for nuisance dust. Respirators should be selected and used in accordance
with OSHA Subpart I (29 CFR 1910.134) and manufacturer�s recommendations.
 Flame-retardant cotton coveralls and conductive safety shoes.
ENGINEERING CONTROLS
Adequate ventilation should be provided to keep dust concentrations below acceptable exposure limits.
Discharge from the ventilation system should comply with applicable air pollution control regulations.
Use a local mechanical ventilation system if needed, preferably with explosion proof construction, and
with a suitable dust filter installed at inlet to suction piping to the system to prevent accumulation of
explosive dust in ventilation piping and blower.
Section 9 - PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
COMPONENT OSHA (PEL) ACGIH (TLV)
Nitrate ester None established None established
Stabilizer, Proprietary None established
Oxidizer, Mineral None established
Oxidizer, Organic None established
Carbonaceous Substance None established
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS No. �WPI - R12
Material � Blackhorn Solid Propellant Revision Date: 11/15/2007 Page 5 of 6
Section 10 - STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
INSTABILITY: Unstable with heat, unstable with static charges, and unstable with impact. Not
usual hazards when stored and used properly.
INCOMPATIBILITY: Incompatible with acids, bases, oxidants, amines.
DECOMPOSITION: Hazardous gases produced are carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, oxides of
nitrogen.
HAZARDOUS POLYMERIZATION: Will not occur.
FIRE AND EXPLOSION DATA: Ignition temperature: 160� - 170� C (320� - 338� F)
Decomposition begins at approximately 50oC (122oF)
OTHER CONDITIONS TO AVOID Direct sunlight.
Section 11 - TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
ROUTES OF ABSORPTION: Inhalation Skin Ingestion Eye Contact
No component of this solid mixture is listed as a carcinogen in IARC, NIOSH-NTP, or OSHA Lists.
TOXICITY DATA:
Nitrate ester: Rat, Oral LD50 : >5000 mg/kg
Section 12 - ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
AQUATIC TOXICITY - Some components of this product are known to be toxic to aquatic organisms:
Appearance Granular Solid Mixture, silvery gray to black
Freezing Point Not Applicable
Boiling Point Not Applicable
Decomposition Temperature Decomposition becomes measurable above 50� C (122�F)
Specific Gravity 1.1 � 1.6
Bulk Density 0.5 � 1.1 (g/cc)
pH 25 Deg. C Not Applicable
Solubility in Water Negligible
Volatiles, Percent By Volume <2
Vapor Pressure 25 Deg. C <1mm Hg
Evaporation Rate Negligible
Vapor Density Not Applicable
Molecular Weight Not Applicable - mixture
Odor None
Coefficient of Oil/Water Distribution No Data
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS No. �WPI - R12
Material � Blackhorn Solid Propellant Revision Date: 11/15/2007 Page 6 of 6
Section 13 - DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS
WASTE DISPOSAL:
 If this product becomes a waste, it meets the criteria of a hazardous waste as defined under 40 CFR 261
and would have the following EPA hazardous waste number: D003
 If this product becomes a waste, it will be a hazardous waste which is subject to the Land Disposal
Restrictions under 40 CFR 268 and must be managed accordingly.
Section 13 - Continued
 Material may best be safely destroyed by controlled open burning in small quantities (maximum about 1
pound) in piles not over 1 inch deep. Use an ignition train of slow-burning, combustible materials to
permit retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited. Stay upwind, do not breathe products of
combustion. Burn only with permission of all local regulatory authorities.
Section 14 - TRANSPORT INFORMATION
This material is regulated as a DOT Hazardous Material
US DOT Classification: Land � Propellant, Solid, 1.3C, UN 0499,
Land - Propellant, Solid for Small Arms (100 pounds or less), NA 3178, 4.1
Section 15 - REGULATORY INFORMATION
Toxic Substance Control Act (TSCA) : all components of this product are listed in the TSCA Inventory.
SARA Title III, Sections 311/312 : Hazard Categories per 40 CFR 370.21 :
Acute (health) - Yes
Chronic (health) � No
Reactive (physical) - Yes
Sudden Release (physical) � Yes
CERCLA Sections 102a/103 � Hazardous Substances � RQ: Not applicable
SARA Title III, Section 313 covered components: Not applicable
Section 16 - OTHER INFORMATION
Prepared 11/15/2007 by Western Powders, Inc.
The information contained herein is believed to be accurate and represents the best information currently available
to Western Powders, Inc. . No warranty or guarantee, express or implied, with regard to the safety or suitability of
these products, or the results obtained from their use, is offered by Western Powders, Inc.. Buyer and user assume
any and all risk, responsibility and liability for any injury (including death), loss or damage arising from usage of
these products.

Everything you ever wanted to know

Josh

Yes, with the Lehigh BP you still use the factory bolt with the 'Extreme'. The only thing you have to buy is the BP, which comes with a stainless primer holder.

Besides the great B209 ignition, your bolt & over all blowback is MUCH cleaner. With the usual bolt dis-assembly & cleanup you will see it almost to the point where just an oil rag wipe down & your done. The seal around the primer is very good. I am also a guy who didn't have a problem with the plastic primer discs. After using the Lehigh plug I'm in the process of getting rid of most of my discs. I have a lot of the orange left, for the most part my red are gone.

You have to get used to dealing with a bare primer, & maybe cold fingers. It's not that big a deal. I even put down 3 deer in 3 shots a few weeks ago hunting a field edge.

I does burn clean IF you use a hot enough primer and enough of a charge. I can't shoot less then 90grs with a CCI or Federal Magnum primer without mucking up the breech plug or fouling up the barrel bad enough to where I can't get a 3rd shot off.

When BH209 first came out, I had problems with getting a projectile down the tube, hang fires, and miss fires. Spoke with Western about the problems, they're answer was to switch to a magnum primer. I did and the hang fires and miss fires went away but the barrel was so fouled I couldn't get a 3rd projectile down the tube without swabbing the barrel. They showed me an article by a tester who had shot multiple rounds without swabbing the barrel. The difference was I was shooting 50grs and he was shooting 120grs.

When I moved up to 120grs with a magnum primer I was able to shoot 15 rounds without swabbing the barrel (I ran out of projectiles).

White Hots are very clean and don't require a magnum primer. I can shoot 50gr pellets all day long without a problem. I use a 50gr pellet behind a 295gr PB for Javilina. I will say WH are not as accurate as BH209 but the difference is minimal. You might lose a 250 yard shooting competition but at a 150 yards you'll be able to hit that Elk in the boiler room.

I'm waiting for Black Dot to hit the market and give it a whirl. Also, regarding BH209, I shoots cleaner than 777 and Pyrodex but you still need to clean the barrel at the end of the day after shooting it.

Enjoy

HaYen

Ok, you got me. I've bit the bullet and started to put things into motion. I want to thank everyone for all their input about BH209, primers, loads, bullets, etc. Today I ordered the Lehigh breech plug, and will start the wheels rolling towards a new powder (BH209) and new bullets. I'm looking at either the 200 gr. Shockwave, or some Noslers. I'll see what I can get to shoot in my Knight Disc Extreme. Can I assume that 120 gr. of Blackhorn should be considered max for my gun. Just wondering where to start with the load. Want to find the sweet spot for my gun and that powder. It is 9 degrees out here in Ohio right now, snowing and blowing. Late gun season starts Sat and then we have muzzle loader season starting Jan. 8. Pretty cold right now to hit the bench and work up loads for this year. The load I have now of 150 gr. of Pyrodex with my 220 gr. Barnes Redhot hp. has proved deadly on whitetail before, and I'm sure it will get the job done next time a deer steps in front of me, but I'm eager to try my new powder/bullet/primer setup for next year. Thanks again fellows for all your help and info. Happy Holidays to all of you and your family.

I read that the factory that was making make Black Dot, blew up. Last I saw was not to expect it anytime in the future, if at all. Seems they really got hit hard by OSHA, didnt look too good for them.

Of course shot placement is about 85% of the deal. Yes, I'd not go above 120 grains loose in your Knight. Did you get a powder measure yet? That T/C clear one with the funnel type end is nice. They are usually about $17 or so. Just load up a few speedloaders & away you go.

I got 1950 fps with 120 grains B209 & a 250 grn SST. Those numbers were a little slower than advertised but do the job well. I'm about positive that 120 grns of B209 will be a fair amount faster than 150 grains of Pyrodex pellets. Be sure you have some strong primers to light that B209. You could do fine with 110 grains of powder too.

Congrats on the Lehigh plug. You will like it, if not I or someone else will buy it off you.

B209 likes a little pressure to burn. With that in mind I'd look to a snug fitting 250-300 grain sabot. The SSTs(shockwaves) are popular. Other ideas are Barnes, or Hornady .452 pistol bullets held in a Havester or other sabot. Of course the mix & match possibilities are endless. Just check a few til you get the right fit in your bore.

If you don't get your new plug for a while just setup with the red primer discs. It can be a little more difficult to fiddle with the gun when temps are near zero.

Originally Posted by hunter01

Can I assume that 120 gr. of Blackhorn should be considered max for my gun.

Yes.

I have yet to shoot an animal with the 200grain Shockwaves but they're very accurate atop 110gr. of BH209.

Hunter01...........

I have to tell u...DONT go away from the Barnes. Its a proven killer for u (and me too). I JUST switched from 3 pellets of 777 this yr and am now a believer and in BH209. Shoots much cleaners...and WAY more consistent. I shoot a TC .50 Prohunter. My brother shoots a TC Truimph. His gun is a lil more finicky iwht it, but mine loves it. AND, i shoot 120gr of it and dont notice much kick which i credit the flex stock and design of the PH. I shoot the 245g Barnes spitfire @ about 2050 fps. A lil slower then 150gr of 777 pushes them, but consistently more accureate.
Hope u get a load to work for you!

Good shooting!!

forgot to tell u....my skinny 14 yr old just shot a 9pt with it at 88 yds last weekend...he NEVER felt the recoid (of course its at a nice buck to help not think of it). Double lung...80 yds later there he laid. Nice easy trail to follow.

Originally Posted by SKane

Originally Posted by hunter01

Can I assume that 120 gr. of Blackhorn should be considered max for my gun.

Yes.

I have yet to shoot an animal with the 200grain Shockwaves but they're very accurate atop 110gr. of BH209.

When you do you will be another convert.

Doc

Originally Posted by 257wthbylover

....my skinny 14 yr old just shot a 9pt with it at 88 yds last weekend...he NEVER felt the recoil

NICE JOB!!!

First off, give congrats to the boy on getting a buck. That's always a thrill to see the kids connect on critters in the field.
It sounds like we're on the same page when talking bullets. I'm sold on Barnes. I like the all copper bullets. And I've already been doing my homework on the bullets. I like the thought of using the 245 gr. MZ or TMZ bullets. I've been studying their B.C., loads and velocitys too. The Barns 290 gr. seems to have something going for it too. A lot of punch, and just as flat. I'm used to shooting the lighter, flatter bullets in the 220 gr. range. I'll just have to study the charts, decide what I want to try, and see if I can get a load and bullet combo. to make me happy. I'm already looking forward to late winter or early spring so I can go to the range and start playing around with my new breech plug/primer/powder/bullet combinations. Come next season, I'll be ready to field test my new set-up. I've been shooting black powder for over 40 years, so I have the powder measures, ball starters, etc. I suppose I'll need to get a different ball starter and ram rod tip for starting those plastic tipped bullets. The ones I've had in the past were either for round balls or hollow points. Those won't work for the plastic tips I'm sure. Do they have special ball starters and ram rod tips for those new designed bullets? I hope so. I'll need to get set up with that, then I'll be ready to go.

I agree, stick with a Barnes.

Expensive for target shooting, yep! But guess what, you dont have to shoot them at the range all the time. Get some cheap stuff to shoot and if doesnt shoot that accurate, guess what? You're still on the range practicing your breathing and trigger squeezing.

My disc extreme likes 110 bh 209 cci mag primer and 250 barnes mz. Like 257 weatherby lover my sons sot 2 deer last weekend. My 10 year old shot a 10 point at 80 yards with the 200 shockwave. Through both shoulders exited and ran 50 yards before tipping over. That load was over 95 grains bh209. My 13 year old shot a nice 8 point with the disc extreme and 250 mz with 110 bh209. Double lung and made it about 40 yards.
Happy boys and proud papa!
Good luck with your new combo of powder and bullets. I think you will like it. Stick with barnes and 110-120 of bh209. Dean

My boy says thanks for the congrats!!!!

Yes...eyeguy and I do some hunting together and we have tested allllll sorts of bullets of the yrs with mzl loaders and from a variety of guns (knights and T/C)...... Hard to beat a barnes!!!

I'm truly surprised more folks don't recommend the Blackhorn 209/Precision Rifle Dead Center bullet combo .... The powder speaks for itself but speaking for the bullet......... B.C.'s are great, terminal performance is above most everything (IMO), and accuracy is absolutely off the charts.......

I happily shot 120 gr of BH and the DC bullet in a Knight since nearly inception, so I know about the loads terminal effects........However, the recent purchase of an Encore Endeavor from Doctor Encore, "rammed" full of the above load, schooled me on the accuracy capability of Modern In-line ML's..........

X-VERMINATOR

Ok, I received my Leigh Gen II breech plug in just two days. Cool. Now can you tell me what the 3 other little thigamajigs are that came with it. The internet said it came with the plug, a 209 primer carrier, and 2 vent liners. Not sure what the vent liners are, but I got the plug, a dohickie that is probably supposed to be the primer carrier, (which I have no idea how it is supposed to work), something that looks like a short threader screw with a head on it that looks like a rivet, then there is something that kinda looks like a brass hollow pointed bullet. Can you please tell me what all these little toys are, and how I'm supposed to use them? Sure would appreciate it. Thanks.
By the way: my Knight Disc Extreme is in the garage, cold and loaded. Tomorrow is the second (2 day) gun season in Ohio. I'll be out after them bright & early.

FYI, I put a 220 gr. Barnes Redhot through a doe's heart tonight at 4:29 P.M. Was 41 yards away, and still ran 100 yards before giving it up. Had a softball size hole out the other side. When I field dressed it, the heart was totally gone. How do they do that? Sprayed blood the whole way before it called it a day. I sat out in 21 degree blowing wind for 4 1/2 hours waiting for that deer to show up. It was worth every minute. Cleaned up the Knight rifle, and took the breech plug out, probably for the last time, since I just received my new Lehigh plug. I'm done for the year with deer. I'll get some Blackhorn 209, some Barnes 250 gr. and 290 gr. bullets and with my new breech plug, I'll see if I can find a load that shoots well for me. Can't wait.

i am another fan of the BH209/precision rifle bullet combo. i'm using 90gr of 209 and the 435gr version from precision rifle. actually tried the keith nose solid, hp and the QT spitzer and settled on the QT. it's a hammer out to about 125yds. (never shot anything past that.

I'm glad to hear you like it too. I'm looking forward to trying to work up a good load with it. Pretty cold here in Ohio right now. Not fun freezing on the bench trying to work up loads now. Will wait til spring. Tucking my smoke pole away for the winter. Got all my deer for the year. Hope to be ready next fall with a new powder/bullet load. Will see how HB209 works for me..

That bullet you got from Lehigh is a sample of bullets they sell. I have mine around but have not tried them. The 'primer' holder is held in the bolt face & holds the primer. It won't fall out unless you take the bolt out, which is good while hunting. If you lose it your gun would be inoperable with the Lehigh plug.

The small screw looking things are replacement 'vent liners'. The one in your plug unscrews if needed. I use a 'welding tip cleaner' to clean the flash hole and do take the screw in vent liner out at times to clean. With normal shooting I don't plan to wear out the vent liner any time soon. You got your order quick, mine took a while.

I shot a doe this Fall in the heart with the Knight. It made a 50+ yrd dash downhill before expiring.

Thanks for explaining what everything is, and what it does. I don't think I'd of figured it out without your help. No directions as to what it is and how exactly to use it. Thanks again.

Can you prime the primer holder without the use of any tools?

Yes, you just set/drop/position the bare primer into the stainless primer holder. It should tip right out after firing.

It took me a little while to figure it out, but I did. I didn't realize that the primer carrier went onto the bolt. Duh. No directions. How do you take the vent plug/screw out????? And what is the brass bullet-looking thingie for???

Hunter, I just ordered a Lehigh breech plug system last PM. The picture and description of what you are to recieve doesnt mention or show a brass bullet looking thing. So I cant help you with that one. I look forward to getting it soon. Dean

Congrats on the doe and the nice shot!!! I am betting you end up liking the BH / 245 (250) combo. About 110 or 120 grs.

Congrats again!!!! My season opened TODAY! Along wtih eyeguys! We will be after them later this week....i get outta this office and start hunting the afternoon of the 22nd and have til Jan. 3rd until i have to be back to work. Cant wait.

Hello Pro-hunter/Blackhorn/Barnes 245. I would like you to meet Mr. Big Buck!

Thanks for the heads up on the lehigh breech plug system. It is great and will never go back to the red discs again. Like you said almost no blow back seals up well and 1 1/2 inch group at 150 yards today. 110 bh 209 and 250 barnes mz. Dean

I have so much loose triple seven powder, between me and my father.I really love this stuff.Real clean powder and plenty potent for me.I just don't see how much better the black horn 209 can be.Well!! when I run out of 777,I'll give it a shot!!777 has always worked fine for me.Plus I'll have to re-sight my gun in,when the time comes.

Hawk_Driver will a musket cap be enough to ignite it?. In
Oregon during blkpwdr season we can not use an inline as the cap must be exposed at all times. Also center fire caps not allowed.
So if the musket cap won't light it up I guess we can't use it so please advise. Thanks for your time .Cheers NC

I really like it since switchin over from triple seven pellets.I think the big misconception today is you have to shoot 150grs of something to get the job done...don't think that's the case at all.I've helped some friends with their finicky rifles and most of the time all have shot much better at around 90 grs equivalent and velocities between 1450 and 1550.Groups have tightened up and shot to shot vel is very close....

Originally Posted by northcountry

Hawk_Driver will a musket cap be enough to ignite it?. In
Oregon during blkpwdr season we can not use an inline as the cap must be exposed at all times. Also center fire caps not allowed.
So if the musket cap won't light it up I guess we can't use it so please advise. Thanks for your time .Cheers NC

I want to know the same thing about the Musket Cap, anyone know?

Tracy

Originally Posted by nimrodtracy

I want to know the same thing about the Musket Cap, anyone know?

Tracy

It is not a factory recommended ignition system.

Originally Posted by nimrodtracy

Originally Posted by northcountry

Hawk_Driver will a musket cap be enough to ignite it?. In
Oregon during blkpwdr season we can not use an inline as the cap must be exposed at all times. Also center fire caps not allowed.
So if the musket cap won't light it up I guess we can't use it so please advise. Thanks for your time .Cheers NC

I want to know the same thing about the Musket Cap, anyone know?

Tracy

BH209 will NOT ignite with a musket cap.Even standard 209's don't always work in every rifle.209M's seem to be the best,while some guns do just fine with standard 209s.

Ruger # 1 Thanks for the input,if you read my previous post you will understand why I asked. Once again thanks. Cheers
and a HAPPY NEW YEAR NC

NO prob, I reread your post.I understand not wanting to spend the $ when you're stuck with Musket caps.That kinda stinks BTW.I love trad ML's and inlines, but I've never understood some of the laws out there.You can use an inline, but not a modern primer.If a state wanted to keep it primitive, mandate open sights, sidelock ignition etc.Anyhow, enough of my rant LOL.

Ruger # 1, Of course you have the other extreme of the savage
using smokeless powder and still calling it muzzle loader!!
Where is the cut-off? Just my 2cents. Cheers NC

Originally Posted by northcountry

Ruger # 1, Of course you have the other extreme of the savage
using smokeless powder and still calling it muzzle loader!!
Where is the cut-off? Just my 2cents. Cheers NC

Well, can you load the Savage from the breech or without using a rod?

The jug says only 209 primers are recommended. I dont know if a musket cap would ignite it or not. I only use it in my inline, run regular Goex in my caplocks.

Originally Posted by northcountry

Ruger # 1, Of course you have the other extreme of the savage
using smokeless powder and still calling it muzzle loader!!
Where is the cut-off? Just my 2cents. Cheers NC

I can see your point, but for me its kinda like the crossbow thing.I personally hunt with a recurve and would have zero use for a crossbow.But they are legal in my state and many others, so I say go for it if that floats your boat.

Our ML season opens Saturday and I'll be carrying a .40 flinter I built this year.But I used a Knight to kill a pretty decent buck earlier this yeaR.

A state allowing modern inlines, but limiting the primer system is a bit dumb is all I was really getting at I guess.

Originally Posted by 257wthbylover

Hunter01...........

I have to tell u...DONT go away from the Barnes. Its a proven killer for u (and me too). I JUST switched from 3 pellets of 777 this yr and am now a believer and in BH209. Shoots much cleaners...and WAY more consistent. I shoot a TC .50 Prohunter. My brother shoots a TC Truimph. His gun is a lil more finicky iwht it, but mine loves it. AND, i shoot 120gr of it and dont notice much kick which i credit the flex stock and design of the PH. I shoot the 245g Barnes spitfire @ about 2050 fps. A lil slower then 150gr of 777 pushes them, but consistently more accureate.
Hope u get a load to work for you!

Good shooting!!

Id see NO reason to go away from barnes unless its absolute max BC you were after for distance.... my one gun just wouldn't shoot barnes well enough at 300 yards and beyond to use them there.... but other than that, barnes has always had a great track record.

Well I finally took my Knight rifle to the range today to start experimenting with my new loads. I shot the Blackhorn 209 with TMZ Barnes 290 gr. with CCI 209 magnum primers. As you advised, I got the Lehigh breech plug. Love it. It is easy to use and when I went to clean it and the bolt, I was amazed at how clean it was. I shot 3 shot groups at 50 yards with 100 gr., 110 gr., and 120 gr. Further work is needed but first results are good. The 110 gr. and 120 gr. shot better than the 100 gr. I was having trouble get good readings with my chronograph, but I did get around 1900 fps with the 110 gr. Didn't get readings with the 120 gr. I love the clean burning of the Blackhorn 209. I shot nine shots, and the 9th bullet went down the barrel just as smooth and slick as the 1st bullet went down the clean barrel. Nice. I was surprised, however, that when I put the first cleaning patch through the barrel after I got home, that it came out really black, but after the third patch, it quickly cleaned up to a clear patch.
So, overall, first impression of the powder/bullet combination, is very promising. I'm not sure if the 1900 fps from the 110 gr. is a little slower than I thought it should be. I'll have to check the charts. And it was 84 degrees out. I did also notice that the barrel got hot with the firings. Never seen, or noticed that heat when shooting other powders, etc. No biggie.
I'll continue to shoot these loads and report back. I want to see how they group at 100 yards.

I used to think PYRO-DEX and Spitfires pulled a good group til I did some searchin on the web..turns out folks were really likin the 209 with 260grain Harvester PT Golds..till they tried 209 and the 300 grain PT Golds...
Called the company, they sent me a "sample pak" of each...this pic is 4 of the 300grainers, 100grains of 209 @ 100yards. Anytime, anyday, all day long. O, and I didnt clean my Encore til about a week later..no rust or corrosion..
[Linked Image]

Wow, that is great shootin. Mine isn't shooting like that, but I'm still working on it. Nice grouping......