I start this discussion with intent to put the subject up for commentary and input by all, as an vehicle for education and sharing of information. Let me state categorically, I am not an expert on this subject. I stepped into the world of picket and slug rifles quite accidentally about 4-5 years ago and the biggest point learned to date is that I don't know the half of it. It is, in today's world, a small niche in the shooting world, albeit a very interesting niche.

The history of BP competition shooting is rife with respected names in the history of shooting sports in the US. Billinghurst, Mann, Warner, Perry, Pope to name a very few. What I want to discuss is that period in between the early days of social shooting with roundball guns and the advent of smokeless propellant and jacketed bullets, not because I have an agenda to push, but because it is a topic that can be discussed to the end of time otherwise.

Chunk guns are neat. Schuetzen rifles are perhaps the finest art crafted in the shooting world. They are for another thread and I'd urge anyone disposed to those disciplines to start discussion on them at their leisure. Mostly I'd like to keep this focused, in very general terms, to the era of the National Rifle Club, that being generally the post Civil War time frame until about 1900. I know for a fact that some of you here will know more about this than me and I welcome corrections and additions equally.

PICKET RIFLES

Somewhere around the first half of the 19th Century the use of percussion caps became common, as did the act of converting flint lock arms to cap locks. As far as I can determine the use of conical bullets for competition began somewhere in the 1840s. The advantage of conical bullet forms over round balls is well known, but many do not know what a picket bullet is. They take three forms: Sugarloaf, Flat base and Lewis style. They are illustrated below.

Sugarloaf style:



Flat base picket (one each end) and Lewis belted picket (center):



There are several points of interest here. The picket rifles were transitional in nature, providing improvement to downrange ballistic performance as well and a new slope on the learning curve. The early sugarloaf bullets were mostly cloth patched and as is attendant to all such bullets had little bearing surface. On one part it was difficult to seat the sugarloaf picket bullets squarely and they are well known to suffer from flyers. The flat base designs did better but still suffered from errant flight on occasion. The advantage of the design was found in the short length, usually less than two calibers, which did not require a fast twist to stabilize them. In my limited experience with picket rifles twist rates can vary wildly, running from the teens to 48".

Furthermore, the picket bullet was, in my opinion, a fertile catalyst for experimentation. Cloth patches gave way to paper and as indicated in the photos above, great variation in form. While rifles intended for round balls trended to deeper groove depth, this was not always advantageous to shooting picket bullets. Thus the belted or double belted Lewis design and other contrivances flourished as well. In short, the rifles were able to shoot both round ball and picket forms, providing a lot of latitude in application.

One should not confuse the nature of the bullet as defining the gun. As mentioned earlier, picket bullets are short, and as a result, fairly light for caliber. The pictured bullets on the notepad however range from .45 to .56 caliber and about 300-550 grains. The guns used for pure match competition were sometimes massive, and other times used in different applications, such as competition and shooting afield. Rules change over time and frankly I do not know what requirement the NRC had for picket class rifles, if any, but in today's competition circles the rule is "less than two calibers length." That means a round ball gun can qualify for a picket match, but that a more common slug rifle will not.

Examples of such hardware is found below with brief explanation where possible.

P.A. Reinhard 1876 .38 caliber bore, 33" twist, 7 grooves, .018" groove depth, 9# w/lollipop sight and hooded wire and bead front sight. Muzzle is turned for bullet starter tools for the gun are lost. Barrel is cast steel, bore is good with a minor pit in the chamber ahead of the breech plug.






A transitional D Hilliard .50 caliber, 16#, 16X scope, 16" twist. Bullet weighs 360 grains. The twist rate allows for heavier bullets if one has sufficient determination to deal with recoil.

In the first picture there is found a false muzzle on the barrel, 2 hammer dies, bullet mould and bullet, foot rest, strip cutter and bullet starter w/monkey fist. Most if not all of these accoutrements were common to competition rifles from this era.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN4273.jpg[/img]

Closer view with FM removed from barrel.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN4282.jpg[/img]

FM installed. The monkey fist is the brass disc with the hole in the middle. It is used to assist in patch strip alignment and/or controlling the strips during windy conditions. The patch strips are placed on the FM and the fist is laid atop. The bullet is then placed in the hole and lightly finger seated. With the fist removed the bullet starter is put in place to seat the bullet about 5-6" into the barrel. In many cases the old guns had choked barrels, meaning the bore was lapped to provide for a reduction in bore diameter at the muzzle of a very few thousandths of an inch (.001-.002"). Depending on bullet/patch/bore dimensions, some will swab the first 6" or so of bore with oil prior to seating a bullet to avoid tearing strip patches.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN4278.jpg[/img]

Hammer dies are used to swage a cast bullet into final form for shooting. The name implies it and in fact a heavy hammer is used to drive the cast bullet into the swage die by striking the ram...squarely. These dies usually have an ejector pin, in this case concealed by the base of the die on the left.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN4287.jpg[/img]

The mould:



I will be back later today with more on this. Feel free to comment at will.

what size are those bullets in?

In rough terms, the moulded bullet is about .47-.48 at the base and just over two calibers length. After a run thru the hammer die it's .498 x .885" as I recall. Gets shorter and fatter is the short version.

Very interesting. Thanks for the time to start this. Very good read.

Dan, thank you for posting all that info. I can't say I've studied those old rifles but have immensely enjoyed the considerable reading I have done. Ned Roberts book is the first that comes to mind. It seems Cline may have covered them a bit.

I don't have a burning desire for any particular rifle....well, that isn't completely honest. I guess the fire never really goes out. However, of late my interest in rifles of that style has been considerably piqued. I would like to have one to work with at longer ranges, those outside 400 yards and up to 800. Perhaps a 40 or 45. I'll be watching this thread. Thanks again for starting it.

Vic

Vic, it may interest you to know that once the slug rifles were established that matches out to 80 rods were not uncommon, that being 440 yards. 100 rod matches too. It may have been in the Roberts book "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle" where I read of this, and as indicated by Sharps, that is a helluva good read on the subject we are speaking to.

With that said I shall continue....

I have barely touched on the topic of picket rifles but there is a bit more to say. Since they were a bridging step between round ball rifles and slug rifles, much of what you see on the Hilliard .50 above is found on slug rifles. The tools are generally similar as are the fixtures. As a point of observation the only thing I don't see often, is two piece bullet used for a picket rifle. The previous photo of the bullets on the yellow tablet...one on the left is a two piece, but is also the only example I've seen. Can pretty much guarantee you'll never see a slug rifle that uses a cloth patch. Both picket rifles and slug rifles do and use about the same equipment otherwise, even if parameters are a bit different.

Another thing that becomes apparent quickly is the lack of barriers to novel innovation. I've seen flint lock heavy target rifles and cap locks with the most modern aperture sights on Earth.

Credit to Plastikosmd for this one:
http://wyomingschuetzen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1256



Large caliber RB rifle shooting at 200 yards. Although not visible in the photo, the gun carried an Olympic quality diopter sight with provision for colored filters. The smoke you're seeing here comes from 200 grains of BP. I believe the gun is a .58 caliber but am not certain of that.



One of the standard pieces of equipment for any of these guns is a foot rest. They can take many different forms, but all serve the purpose of providing a stable front rest which supports the weight and prevents canting. Sometimes the weight can be imposing. As much as 75 pounds or more. Here's a couple or three foot rests. They are attached either by screw to the bottom of the barrel, or by clamping action.

A P A Reinhard style brass foot rest of brass, intended to attach by screw to the barrel.



A .50 caliber of modern production by Richard Hicks on a Mosslander barrel,also attached by screw



This is a clamp on approach, though not a slug rifle or positioned where they are typically found on such guns. It also illustrates that some will to to great lengths with technology, materials and design.



More later....

Thank you very much, Dan. Enlightenment is the word that comes to mind. I know I'll be digging my copy of Robert's out tonight.

I often wondered how those cross patches were held in place while starting the bullet. Now I know. Are cross patches used dry, or are they lightly lubed?

You mentioned in the one instance where the top 5-6" of the bore is swabbed to accommodate the paper patches. Should I infer that swabbing the entire bore between shots isn't practiced, or is that up to the individual gun/shooter?

gnoahhh, patches are used both ways depending on what works and who is doing the working. The swabbing of the bore with oil is not universally done either. Two cases in point: The Mosslander above received an oil swab prior to seating the bullet, but the two guns I'm running do not. I guess it mostly has to do with the dimensions of the bore/bullet, whether or not the cross strips are oiled (some do and some don't) and how finicky you are. It should be said that the gentleman I referred to with the Mosslander was a two time National Champ with slug rifles and I am not. In fact, I'm way down the ladder in that department. Way, way down.

As far as swabbing the bore between shots in a conventional sense, I've not met anyone that doesn't do that in some fashion, but there are many applied methods for that. Variations of wet/damp/dry patches, how far down and how many, etc. One of the fellows that assisted me in getting started said once that having a slug rifle is like having 25 wives. True. But then, I really enjoy the venue so I'm not complaining. Each of these beasts represents the best effort of the builder and their thoughts about what will make it a championship quality rifle. They are each unique in many ways.

Anyway, during the post Civil War era the lessons learned from that conflict infused throughout the sport shooting community. I'm not saying heavy rifles and long for caliber conicals originated at that point for they certainly did not. I am saying however that in America the development of the technology took its own path. Shooting was a national pastime in the US then, much as pro sports are today. Big crowds, lots of celebrity and all that goes with it and for that we can thank the National Rifle Club based then in New York.

This is a period that brought a lot of talent, inquisitive investigation and technical evolution to the shooting world. Warner, Lowe, Mann, Billinghurst, Perry are commonly referenced in such discussions but they were not the only folks in the fray by any means. To really get a grasp on the scope of the activity takes a lot of research, and if one is really inclined to pursue this the best place to start is either the clubs affiliated with Friendship, Ohio (NMLRA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Muzzle_Loading_Rifle_Association ) or the Wyoming Schuetzen Union web site members. http://wyomingschuetzen.com/forum/index.php There are others, but I'll let each pursue their own avenues.

SLUG RIFLES

The most common thing I run into with discussion on this subject is a puzzled expression followed by "What's a picket rifle?", or "You mean a Remington shotgun with a rifled barrel?" Most folks are completely ignorant of this phase of our heritage. I was too a few years back.

Not sure there is an official definition of "slug rifle" or "slug gun" as they are commonly called, but here's mine: Muzzle loading Hindenburg launchers. They come in many calibers but the predominant bore is .45-.50 and they tend to shoot bullets in 3 caliber or longer lengths or thereabouts. Couple of examples below:

A .50 caliber two piece of 800 grains. The pure lead base is actually slightly larger in diameter than the alloy nose.


A lineup of various bullets including, L-R, .22 LR, .422" 300 grain paper patch, a .45 2 piece picket bullet, 2 x .50 caliber pickets (Lewis belted style) and a .56 caliber picket, the .50 caliber above and a .56 caliber 900 grain bullet used for light duty in a Perry rifle. All are swagged bullets.



I'll be back in a bit to continue with this and put up some photos of the slug rifle in all it's glorious diversity. In the short term you might want to peruse this site. Each of the photos in this link open a portfolio of photos so click on what tweaks your curiosity. There are a few picket rifles and other accoutrements worth a look as well.

http://www.pbase.com/halp/root&page=1

lets not forget Dan that there were also other rifles and bullets that predated some of the rules which in allot of cases excluded them
the Swiss and German Sutzer/ model 1851 field stutzer , also know as the Schmit/Rubin was one such rifle .
The Stutzer started out as a military rifle that was adapted for competition do to it high level of accuracy .
I own an original German stutzer that some !@#$@ dicked up the stock on . One day ill restock it proper and try her out
its bullet is also unique in that it uses a cloth patched bullet and it
The bore is 10mm or 40 cal





later verssion were converted to cartradge

Captchee, I know little about the European activities to tell the truth. Next to nothing. Well, they did/do a lot of interesting stuff across the pond and make some remarkable arms and as indicated earlier, we had no lock on competition technically or in spirit.

A montage of slug rifles follows:

HV Perry rifle with Reinhard picket rifle



The Perry rifle is .56 caliber, 18 grooves and weighs around 47# if memory serves.







The rifle belches at Homeland, Fl a couple of years ago:



The Polecat Porter Trophy. Mr. Porter was a notoriously effective shooter of slug rifles and called Polecat for a number of reasons....term of endearment it was, but it may have taken awhile for that to evolve as I hear it.



The Mosslander rifle on the line in 2009. Note the cast on the buttstock. The owner was left handed.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3202.jpg[/img]

Another view:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3175.jpg[/img]

Tools: A starter and False Muzzle

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/7.jpg[/img]

Fascinating. I was unaware that there is still so much activity in the shooting of said rifles. That one rifle is built on a gorgeous Ballard action. Dan, I hope you haven't lit a fire in me that I can't put out...hehehe.

I too have experienced those who attempt to qualify what you mean when you say "slug gun" and are not speaking in the context of modern firearms. The ignorance of our muzzleloading heritage abounds. It's as if they believe conical bullets, telescopic optics and shooting beyond 60 yards with a muzzleloader occurred with the advent of the Knight rifle in the 1980's or perhaps with the TC Maxi-ball....then bragging about it. Nothing quite like re-inventing the wheel. At the Creedmore match in 1876 the Irish were using Rigby muzzleloading rifles out to 1000 yards and except for a shot fired on the wrong target by them would have beat the U.S. team who were using breech loaders.

Good read....keep it up!

Vic

A Seth Millard rifle on machine rest. Calilber .55, no other info available.



Another collection of loading tools:



A Billinghurst rifle. The simplicity of the trigger/hammer/spring design is something I've always admired about underhammer guns.




Cased and one would need deep pockets to take this home. This rifle was represented to me as a slug rifle and perhaps it is, but I rather suspect it to be a picket rifle due to its svelte contour and the patch cutter in the case which would produce round patches rather than strips. In addition the mould and hammer die do not appear to be especially large. Thinking picket but could be wrong about that.



Reinhard tools:


[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Reinhardtools1.jpg[/img]

Slug rifle top, maker unknown. Polecat Porter Trophy to right, located at The Wyoming Armory, Cody, WY.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/IMG_0760.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/IMG_0763.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/IMG_0761.jpg[/img]

Vic, I'm going to deviate slightly off track for your benefit and serve up some Ballard-porn.

A ramble follows that has no outline, hope I don't get lost.

A sincere note of thanks to Steve Garbe, Keith and John of the Wyoming Armory for their help and diligence in anointing an ignorant heathen to the sport. If Steve's name does not resonate, think "SPG Lubes" and the light will come on.
http://www.wyomingarmory.com/

Thanks extended to the Heavens for the tutelage of the Late Richard Hicks, who was one of the finest gentleman I've ever known, and also one of the most knowledgeable and competent shooters I've met. Rich was the one that extended his hand and helped me get oriented to this world. He also tolerated an endless parade of silly questions.

Richard hailed from Ohio and was a frequent presence at Friendship. He was also deeply involved in restoring old slug rifles, building new but period faithful rifles, boring and rifling barrels with and without gain twist and all the other little things the average fella even think to ask about. Rich built scopes for these guns as well. He described the process in detail in a past article in "Black Powder Cartridge News". The scope on the referenced Perry rifle was created by Rich as were several others seen in this thread. There was something wrong with the Universe if a gun came into his possession or care that was not ready to run. He made it right and that was just his character.

My shooting career began with shotguns and quail. It was a long time before I came to own a rifle, but after that occurred and I got past the Army I began to fiddle, including reloading. Do not think I have no interest in smokeless powder guns for I do. I am however, well past the point where I find the activity truly fascinating. A case in point: I purchased an old 700 ADL from a friend who was disgusted with it. Chambered in .22-250, it had been his ranch gun and after several years the safety function went south and he experienced several unexpected discharges.

Well, I sent it out to Dennis Earhart for a rebarrel and repair, had it chambered in .250 Savage and the first two groups I fired went sub 1/2" and right at 1/4" with Ballistic Tips and Partitions in that order, at 100 yards. It is a superlative tool and serves a purpose, but it is not interesting. Even after reshaping the stock...it bores me. Didn't even make me work to find a load....

It's fair to say that rewards generally do not come so easily with muzzle loading target guns.

The one thing I've come to realize about this endeavor is that other than match rules on any given day, there are no rules. When you pick up one of these creations, if you are lucky, there will be notes detailing the past machinations of various owners. It will have all the tools too, and all you have to do is make some bullets, load some powder and shoot. Wrong. You won't be using the same paper, lube, powder and a lot of other variables will be introduced, so you have a foundation, but you get to explore the fine tuning. Little things make a big difference on paper at 40 rods. Mostly the guns are capable, whether they be old or new, but it's the operator and operation of the system where the details lurk.

Dogma dies every day a match plays out. I adopted the "one firm" strike or push on the seating tool theory early one, in part because I could do that with the guns I have and on another because the experts said that was how you do it. At Cody last month I lost to a fella seating his picket bullets by pounding on the seating plunger with a piece of pine lumber. All things considered I was not displeased by my string of 30 odd inches for 20 shots. He, the madman with the 2x4, shot a string about half the size of my own.

As indicated earlier, you do what is required to make these guns shoot, not what you are told. One is not working in the dark in figuring this out however. Every shot you fire will give clues if you are sufficiently curious about what transpires. For these reasons I do not find this pastime boring.

A case study:

Journeyed out to Cody in May for the 2011 NRC match hosted by the fine folks of the Armory and many others. They ran 5 or six matches, two of which I intended to shoot. One was the Polecat Porter/Richard Hicks Memorial Match and the other was a picket match, both 20 shots. The Memorial Match was at 200 yards under time rules. The Picket Match was set at 100 yards, no time rules. We shot German Ring Targets.

For those not familiar, they look like this after being mutilated a bit:



The 25 ring is 1.5" in diameter and each lesser ring is 3/4" wider, or 1.5" in diameter larger. The bull is 6" across. The penciled math on the right is scoring for string measure, the total representing the distance from center (POA) to center of hole, compiled in aggregate.

I suppose the average person would not be wildly impressed with the target. I'm not, save for a small detail or three. I'd had but one chance to shoot the gun prior to arriving at Cody and had no credible load established. Too, the aft scope base had a permanent set that precluded tension when the elevation was lowered for 100 yard shooting. So, with all the cunning I could muster I lashed the scope down with a leather thong and SWAG'd the load at 60 grains of Swiss 1-1/2 FG. In addition, the Hilliard rifle had displayed a nasty habit of fouling sufficiently after 2-3 shots that getting it to fire was problematic. Nothing big to deal with, right?

We sat down to shoot in a breeze of about 10-15 MPH, variable in direction, and my primary objective at that point was mostly to not embarrass myself beyond redemption. As it turned out, others had some issues too, and at the end of the match I came out ahead of most but not all. What I know is that I didn't shoot as well as the gun is capable of, not by a mile. My life still has purpose...

Previous to the picket match we did the PP/RH Memorial Match and I shot that one with a new slugger delivered to my possession 2 days prior to the match. Forget the fine points I told myself, DO NOT EMBARRASS YOURSELF!



The first five shots fired with the new gun...at 200 yards...20 mph wind...in front of infamous personalities waiting to pounce on me for malfeasance and mediocrity. No pressure there at all. After loading and shooting the first shot, a gent by the name of Kenny Wasserberger, who gazed thru a spotting scope worthy of interstellar astronomy, dryly said, "25 ring". I was pretty sure the audience was skeptical. Hell, I was skeptical.

In following order it went 24, 18, 24, 19, which is a testimony to the effects of wind. I should have had them autograph the target and proclaimed "This is too easy!" and stopped right there.

The other thing that dan hasn�t mentioned yet , that probably should be , is that at one well up into the 1930�s the use of the � stock rifles was frowned upon at many of the events . From what I have read , so much so that there was a conflict that was very much like that between what we have concerning modern and traditional groups today . So much so that it was actually documented in an American Rifleman article from 1937. I have a copy of that article and if there was a way to post a PDF for you all to read I would post it .
So if someone know how I might go about that I ll do it .
While I don�t know for sure but im thinking this is also one of the reasons why we have different categories of long distance shooting .
It should also be noted that the acceptance of telescopic sights was not widely accepted even in national competitions tell rather late . Those that we do see being used are often either low power 1 or 2X or are tube sights not true scopes .
So when we read and see pictures of these original rifles and their resulting target , like in Roberts writings, we need to remember that for the most part , the results we see were from open target type sights . IE peeps, shadows and such . This makes the results even more remarkable . Especially considering the longer 500-1000 yard ranges found at the nationals and world competitions

Another thing , not to interrupt dans very high quality subject mater .
But there was a question concerning modern vs. original barrels .
Their appears to have been a completely different mindset as to what made a good long distance barrel . I have read many articles that suggested that a softer barrel was much bore desirable then a hard barrel . Hacker marten wrote about this and went so far as to state that a good long distance barrel should be drawn so soft that the flats of the barrel could be shaped with nothing more then a scraper . In his case he specifically mentioned using a knife blade do draw the flats to the barrel .
Thus the requirement for a heavier barrel that was more stable in it sight picture and more consistent in it harmonics .

We should also note that these rifle were so highly accurate that the cartridge evolution was un able to replicate the accuracy tell very late in the event history . When those types of rifles finally did start wining events , them magin was so close that it often came down to the shooter not the gun and often times it was shooter error that made the difference

Well, what manner of magic did I pull this off with?



New build on an Allen Boxlock action, Krieger barrel (w/choke) of 33" + FM, 16" twist, .400" bore and .408 groove. It uses a reverse taper grease groove bullet from a Dave Moss mould that casts 370 grains of pure lead. MVA scope and the rig weighs 19 pounds.

There's much to be done before this rifle really starts to run and among the menu items is developing a load and alloy for the bullet. It may be the answer is in front of me, but then again, maybe not. I shot it with "load #1" as indicated in the target below. This is 60 grains of Swiss 1-1/2FG, .060 Walters wad, ~3# of compression followed by seating the bullet. The load sequence after firing was a damp patch swab (both sides) and dry patch (both sides).

Yep, it's GG shooter. It in not a new idea but it does seem to work. The thing you must remember in the difference between PP loads and GG, is that properly utilized paper patch precludes leading. Most slug rifles are shooting at velocities in the range of 1100 fps for a reason, and due to that I can get away with pure lead GG. It does not mean that's the most effective load, only that it works. Other than two piece bullets previously discussed, paper patch bullets are almost always pure lead. A final note on paper patches and false muzzles.

The orientation of alignment for a FM is not random. Generally a false muzzle is created by cutting off a few inches of barrel, reattaching it and then rifling the whole rig. After that the rifling alignment is as perfect as it gets. The FM is then slightly reamed to create a larger bore diameter at the front which tapers to the barrel/FM union and this acts to gently swage the bullet and/or paper patch to final dimension as it is loaded. The orientation of the slots for the paper strips is such that the seams of the strips will align in the grooves, not across lands. This is done with both two and three strip FM's, one of each being previously depicted in this thread.

If you happen across a gun that has lost tools and the FM, which is fairly common, it does not mean the gun is worthless. It just means you get to learn a little about thoughtful machine work when you build or have built a replacement. It's difficult, but not impossible. Other lost tools are more easily replaced, but at the end of the day you are paving new ground in context of the original builder's effort.



In addition to the load development I will have to contrive a foot rest of the clamp on variety. The "zero" I worked with was found in very fresh wind conditions and was at best an approximation. At 200 yards my next 10 shots during the match looked like this:



Danged wind.....another wife to deal with.

That will pretty much wrap up the dialog 'cept for a couple of things I'd like to caution all about.

1. When you take one of these creations to the range all manner of folk are going to flock around bubbling with questions, especially after you drill the X-ring a few times. STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING! If you allow distractions during the load process you will short seat a bullet and possibly ring the barrel.

2. Look at your target(s) with and inquisitive eye. They tell far more than the average shooter realizes

3. Be consistent with what you do in all endeavors but do not be dogmatic. These rifles will shoot, but it's up to you to find out the recipe and that may be a large part of the endeavor, and the fun. Shooting at the match is the least troublesome of the whole package and the rest is a lot of fun.

4. Remember #1...

whats with all this old junk?

Reference #1 above: That happens with anything out of the oridinary and the advice given to "STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING" is darn good advice.

When all the new junk is recycled into car body parts for battery powered cars that "old junk" will still be winning matches and have considerable value. Wonder what an Optima CVA will be worth in 120 years.

i was speaking historically dan . not for today .
Part of just understanding the evolution of the change in the sport
most of what i have seen today are indeed 1/2 stock rifles even though alot of the chunk gun type shooting is still done with full stocks though not exclusively .
Im sure you will get to it but it may also help to mention the sizes of the targets , how a string is read on those targets . Might give folks a better understanding

Ha, we posted about 1 minute apart. Appreciate your thoughts, particularly the part about barrel alloy. Feel free to expand on that if you like. I have a lot of background things going and will be a wee bit scarce for the balance of the day and all of this evening.

One of the problems I have in doing something like this thread is trying to stay focused on the subject. There is so much crossover into different disciplines and a whale of a lot of debate over rules since you brought it up. I'll paste the current NRC rules below and perhaps that can open the debate/discussion?

On the way out the door, but since barrel steel was mentioned, a picture below of the Reinhard barrel. Both it and the D.Hilliard rifle barrel were made with cast steel and stamped on the barrel in the photo. Remington was a major supplier of barrels of this type during the hey day of this sport.

While this is true , we should also understand that �Cast Iron /steel � in this context , Isn�t what a lot of those here maybe thinking off .
What it means is the barrel is what we know as PIG IRON " if Iron "
The Remington foundries actually had a problem because what they were doing was making wrought iron, which would not forge weld properly . So to make a long story short , they came up with a way to center drill the barrels .
However they had big issues with quality and the barrels they were making , in so many words Sucked .
Let me say that the above statement isn�t my opinion , its documented fact and Remington knew it .

So what to do ? Well they bought their barrel blanks from England . Then center drilled them here . So Hopefully what your looking at is an English barrel that�s bored by Remington OR one of the later Remington barrels that they started making after the Bessemer process was discovered . In which case the barrel is actually closer to mild steel and the word Cast relates to the the process of making the steel , NOT as a term of casting a barrel

here is some reading on the subject
http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no3/articles/mbo43-3.shtml

Interesting link that. Thanks!

A .40 caliber gun by Ken Bresien. Posted here to illustrate a very good way to service the rifle for match shooting. This is by the way, a very successful rifle and won the 2009 NRC championship. It uses cross strip patches, but otherwise I am ignorant of the specifications. It uses sealed ignition rather than open nipple with direct hammer strike.



From the top, note the FM is tied to the loading fixture. More than one FM has taken a ride down range and it is something to be avoided.

Next, you see the bullet seater in a conveniently accessible location, two range rods likewise. One is for swabbing the bore and the other for seating the bullet. Caps, monkey fist, notes, all available on the counter.

Note also the orientation of the gun. Scope toward the shooter is the most common iteration but carries some baggage in my opinion. The load fixture does not have a deep recess and the gun is somewhat vulnerable to being dislodged and falling. This can occur by snagging articles of clothing on scope adjustment screws etc. Another but less common approach is to relieve the fixture sufficiently to allow scope orientation away from the shooter and take advantage of stock geometry to instill more security. I go both ways as circumstances require, but prefer to have the scope oriented away from me rather than front and center.

Good stuff, great pics.

dubePA, I hope you know that PA is one of the hotbeds of this sport in the US.....really.

Well, havent been here much, Dan invited me over to share my lack of knowledge. I am the lucky owner of a 2 action 4/barrel set made by RL Morris and all the tooling. I also have a pistol he made and a Bresien barrelled, ballard action 32-40 muzzleloade/breach seater. First the pics!
The percussion guns and tooling (60 RB, 45 RB and 485 Slug gun)

The 60 at the range

Latest target, still workin on it 5 or 6 shots, cant remember, open sights at 100 yrds.

The flintlock, just shot this for the first time.

2 5shot groups at 100, open sights, still got some work to do

The slug gun, mitchell 27x scope

various slugs that have been cast, 2 part slugs (hard nose/soft tail swaged together)630-700 grains, .224 for compare

The ballard action rifle, breech seater, false muzzle etc

I am currently redoing the action, changing from cast to forged action, doing some fitting

ok back to the morris stuff,
a picture of what a sealed ignition looks like, note the partial threads, these are all underhammer (3) not the flinter of course


the slug prior to swaging, male/female parts

Swage blocks and mould, cross paper cutter

customized rear sights, came with 3 types, all redfield with apeture control

The rest the barrels sit on, they are heavy 35-55 lbs depending

A few of the barrels, note the false muzzles and how the are pinned and slide on, the other end secures to the action

Percussion action/underhammer


let me know if i can answer any questions, I will then guess at an answer and wait for dan to correct me! (the web and dan have been a huge help with my new hobby)

Thanks for this, and I mean that sincerely. It is a really nice set you have there and I am particularly interested in how the slug barrel shoots. Figuring if you can shoot RBs like that you are required to do one hole groups with the slugger out to...oh...let's say 100 rods....

Yeah, I'm mean like that.

Thanks again!

I'll add my thanks also. Good shootin' too! May I ask what your alloys are for the different sections of the bullet, or has Dan or someone else mentioned that and I missed it?

Vic

Thanks for the pictorial. What purpose does the sealed ignition serve? I'm assuming it uses a standard cap, or does it utilize a rifle primer?

ya great photos , thank very much

Having received a couple of requests for direction, I shall supply what info I have regarding how to locate such arms, or have them built. I have no financial interest in any arms company, builders of components or dealers. I do recognize quality craftsmanship when I see it.

At present there are 5 areas in the country where I know such shooting takes place. Pennsylvania, Oregon/Washington, Ohio, Florida and Cody, WY. I am quite certain these are not the only locations, but they are the ones I know about. A little searching by anyone interested is likely to turn up additional locations. The NMLRA is likely to be a good source of information as indicated previously. The links below should serve as information or contacts for purchase of older guns or leads to same. In some cases it is not obvious from the web site home page that a source of information or expertise is available and given specific inquiry I may be able to direct you to a particular party for specific purpose. As an example, the Rocky Mountain Cartridge owner is a gifted machinist with a passion for this type of pursuit. In fact he whipped my azz in the picket rifle match referenced previously.

http://www.wyomingarmory.com/firearms/target-competition/
http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/actions.shtml
http://unertl.alexweb.net/
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/1860TargetRifle.asp
http://wyomingschuetzen.com/forum/index.php?sid=a7a296bdd2f4f319054fd18115a35433
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/
http://www.montanavintagearms.com/

Several thoughts come to mind, questions actually, when one expresses interest in pursuit of this sport. Do you want an old gun or a new build?

In the case of old rifles, sources include every avenue ever imagined from gun stores to auction houses and everything in between. I've seen a number of both picket and slug guns on the block at gun shows here in Florida. Such rifles are frequently without tools and that can be a problem, but it drives the value down tremendously, and the price along with it. A quality Billinghurst slug rifle with all tools can gut a $10K bill. Less notorious builders can still bring a substantial ticket, but in my limited experience such guns that are in good condition may be found for less than $5,000. From what I've seen, they can still run with the big dogs.

Newer guns such as built by Ken Bresein may go for less than $4K all up. Note from one of the previous posts, one such rifle won the 2009 NRC match in Cody with a very short string score.

I would urge anyone interested in an older piece to not turn you back on a gun without tools. There are a lot of them out there and given some TLC and ingenuity they are fully capable of fine shooting. It helps if you are a machinist or know one. If not, folks at one or more of the links above can provide help or direction to someone that is capable of doing what is needed. This can include the crafting of a new false muzzle.

New builds can be easier, or more difficult, depending on what you want. One of the things to consider on this path is whether or not you wish to compete in match competition, the significant point being the rules. If you noticed, the NRC rule for certain matches requires pre 1900 technology. Not materials, the technology which may be a design such as used by MVA for their scopes (Malcom). These are details to be attended to by match shooters, not those wishing to just fiddle with something a little different.

Barrels are another consideration. I rather suspect one reason for the massive barrels of the older guns was, on one part the desire for weight as an accuracy aid. On another, it may well have been safety. Very large bullets and powder charges raise a ruckus and keeping your limbs and face connected is desirable. Today the availability of large diameter blanks is limited to a very few barrel makers. I don't mean to say they cannot be had, just that they are not a casual purchase. The barrel on the rifle built for me by Wyoming Armory is new, and I rather think about as big as you can get without a lot of hoo-haw. It is also strong enough to handle major charges of lead and powder...if you don't mind the recoil.

Actions: There are few limitations here. I've seen under hammers, sidelocks, in-lines, side hammers and now, even a flintlock. Drum and nipple apparatus is out for slug rifles due to the pressure they generate. Otherwise, do what you want. For the record, in-lines have been around for a long, long time. The designs may have evolved a great deal, but it wasn't long after the introduction of the percussion cap that the first percussion in-line came along...a few decades after the first in-line flintlock. Not much is new under the sun.

Caliber: Large bores are fun, but they are not absolutely required to be competitive. What is necessary to some degree is a reasonable ballistic coefficient. As an example, picket rifles can and have competed at 40 rods and in some cases done well. They are not however generally considered competitive with slug rifles and BC is the reason. If you can drive a .38 caliber bullet with BC comparable or close to that of a .50 caliber, you got yourself a footrace. It takes a faster twist in the .38 to do that, but don't think the match results will be determined solely on such things. Given a somewhat level playing field, it is the shooter that will win, not the gun.

And if you fancy yourself a machinist, you can build an underhammer gun from scratch, save maybe for the barrel. Wait, I knew a guy that made his own barrels too.....

Have fun!

They can be set up for either type primer. One of their advantages is a hotter ignition if one uses boxer primers, another is containment of primer spall and/or hot gases. The technology was in use in the 19th century as I understand it, though not especially common. Sealed ignition also allows for a bigger charge without generating hammer blow back.

you are welcome dan!
I call this sport the hobby with a workout. Making a trip to the range is quite an event as everything is very heavy! Plan on an hour of setup and takedown. I bought mine online. Dan's prices are accurate. I would love an 'antique' someday, but right now I am happy with my late 50/early 60's set. The machine work is unbelieveable and I have no fear of it holding together.
As far as how the slug gun shoots, I will snap some pics of the targets that came with the gun. The previous owner was working up loads in 1964 and has it marked down. It appears they were shot at 100 yards ? As the number '100' is used? looks like he was putting 6-10 rounds under an inch, he was trying multiple different slug profiles, as shown in the prior pics

Just occurred to me that I left out some discussion on patch techniques.

There are two alternatives to cross strip patches. One is the Chase Patch which is a single wrap with the seam running length on the bullet and the skirt of the patch folded gently around the base of the bullet. The other is a wrapped patch conventional to cartridges. I've never seen wrapped patches used in this type of rifle.

The Chase Patch generally requires swabbing the bore prior to starting the bullet and requires a small fixture to facilitate proper patching. It is essentially a piece of metal stock w/ proper sized hole which allows the patch strip to be inserted in tube form, followed by the bullet. It holds it all together while the skirt is folded over the base. After that the whole package is loaded in conventional manner.

Figured I would revive the topic and post my newest 'big' slug gun. 70lbs or so in weight, 69 caliber. 1700+ grain projectile, 2 part slug.

left to right
22 55g, 357 168g, 45 250g, .485 635g slug, last 2= .69, 1700+

next to a more modern bull barrel

Another gun that I picked up. This would be an 'original' gun. It was made by Pierce who,from what I was told, worked with or studied under billinghurst. The gun dates to around the civil war. It is still shooting well. One of the prior owners was good friends with Lester Cox, a famous slug shooter/smith. He reworked the slug or designed a new slug for the gun in the 1940's. The gun took first in a camp perry 600 yard match around that time, included is a 10 shot target by Cox shot at 100 yards.

Cool rear sight, made with a token/bank coin from that era

Beautiful rifle. Yet more evidence that I was born 100 years too late.

"Them ol' timey muzzleloaders an' real black powder ain't accurate, cain't hit a thing with 'em". That's just about the biggest lie ever told.

Nice rifles plastik...I could get plumb excited about that original. Thanks for showing them.

thx!
Yep, they can shoot, I usually outshoot the centerfires at my local range (open sights-100yrds) and give many of the scoped guns a run for their money. Tho they do get a lot more chances in an hour of shooting.

Hi everyone, I have eagerly read this entire thread becuase of a gun I found in my grandfather's basement. I know it is not a "slug" gun based on your excellent write-up, but it appears to be closely related and somewhat unique. I'm not sure how to categorize it but wanted to share some photos. It was made by Nelson Lewis and appears to be a buggy rifle but with many of the accuracy-features of some of your guns here such as the false muzzle, peep site, etc.

I apologize if the inclusion of this post dillutes the purity of this thread topic, but with the wealth of knowledge on this thread I cannot resist hoping I might find some more insight into this gun such as vintage, what it might have been used for, etc. I love this history...in addition your thread has made me fantasize about shooting this gun. Is that even something to think about ever? I have a wierd feeling many people would frown on it. It would be along way out assuming I could afford to make an offer to my grandpa to buy it. Even if I can't shoot it, reading this history of this era of gunsmithing in the U.S. has been incredible and owning a piece of that history would be exciting!

Big6ft6, WOW! That is an extremely rare piece you have there. That looks to be a really nice late percussion era target pistol. That is very rare to have the entire set with removable stock, false muzzle, etc. Send a few pictures to
Sarah Rittgers care of
Muzzle Blasts, P.O. Box 67 Friendship, IN 47021
She is one of the leading experts on such things and is looking for guns just like this to feature in Muzzle Blasts magazine. Muzzle Blasts is the publication for the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association.

It would also be a sin to not shoot that once it's properly checked out!

Ben

Thanks Ben! You're making my heart race! My grandpa knew nothing of the history. It was his father's and all my grandpa can remember is that his dad called it a "turkey shoot" gun.

I'm super thirsty for any knowledge of how this type of gun was used. Who would've been the type of person to own it. The age etc.

Big, that is indeed a very nice gun. Nelson Lewis was quite well known in the circles discussed in this thread, in fact a couple of the picket bullets in the pictures I posted earlier are of his design. The only other prolific maker of buggy rifles that I am aware of was Billinghurst by the way. Your grandfather's gun is quite valuable, more so if it is in shooting condition. I'd suggest having it examined by a competent gunsmith versed in the old guns.

If you have trouble locating one in your region I would strongly urge you to consider sending it to the Wyoming Armory c/o Steve Garbe, or to Dave Casey at Rocky Mountain Cartridge for examination and a fair evaluation of its worth. Both can be contacted via the links I posted earlier.

Don't that one leave the family, no matter what...

That is certainly one to hang on to for dear life. May I suggest that you root around in the neighborhood of the basement where you found it to see if any other accoutrements for it may have strayed from the case, such as it's bullet mold, patch cutter, bullet starter, etc.

gnoahh, yes that is a good idea. After reading through this thread I realize those parts are missing or at least I didn't see them. Of course I didn't know what I was looking at, not to mention what to look for when I was up there. When I first found the box and looked in I assumed this was some type of pirate gun from the 1600s . It felt like it weighed 10 pounds so I figured it was from really early in gun evolution before they could make lighter barrels or something!! It was until I started digging around, posted on some forums and then found this thread that I realized how advanced this gun was int he evolution of muzzle loaders.

In looking at the photo, it appears the tray that has the false muzzle may lift out of the box??? So maybe some more stuff is under that tray??! There must be some reason that tray comes out. I'm prety excited to get back up to my grandpa's and look again!

My grandpa is a rather particular guy, notice one of the hook latches came off the box and it is sitting in the tray in the box after all these years.

So would this gun use cloth or paper patches? If I've read this thread correctly I assume cloth patches?

It will almost certainly use paper patch in the form of cross strips or a chase patch. The front end if the false muzzle will tell you which.

love the old pistol/rifle. I am planning on making a bench type pistol. That gave me some ideas