Plan to dust off the muzzleloader. I have not shot it since my muzzleloader hunt in CO in 2007. I had to by law shoot loose powder on that hunt.

What are most using today loose 777 or Black Horn or are you using the pellets? I noticed they have regular Pyrodex and 777 pellets now.

I will be hunting deer and hogs here in the Carolinas with it.

I shoot BP, round balls and sidelocks, but shootin is shootin. I would save some money and use whatever sub you desire in loose form. Just gives you the opportunity to use only as much powder as needed to do the job and not spew unburned powder out the muzzle. I think you'll find something less than 100 gr will be plenty for deer and hogs, regardless of what projectile you use.

CROY, if Your rifle is an inline, I have found no better than 777 loose powder.
If its a sidelock, I have found no better than FFFG Swiss real black.

Gunner

It is an inline, a Knight Bighorn I bought back in 2001.

10-4, 150 gns loose 777, a barnes 290 gn say-bo, and a 3-9 Nikon Omega scope, and a little practice/tweakin' and You will be GTG out to 200 yds.
My T/C Omega is extremely accurate and very powerful to this range, the only deer I have hit with this combo that went anywhere to speak of was a double lung hit small 5 point, at the shot he turned 90 degrees and headed downhill, I heard the crash in the leaves, walked down following a blood trail.."no chit" looked like You poured it out of two 20 ounce pop bottles in each hand.
That bullet is a wicked cutter, good luck with Your set-up.

Gunner

Anything but pellets...

I have a 21" barrel length so 150 grs may be too much. I was planning to try 80 grs; 90 & 100 grs w/the same bullet and adjust accordingly.

Thanks

Then try what ever you want but to me pellets are not as good as loose powder Ithink you will be right with your load can go as high as 120 grains but the 80 to 100 about right with what ever gun ar action I got them all

I am with most above pellets are easy but hurt in accuracy department but I have got to say that new blackhorn 209 is very nice stuff. No swabbing between 20-30 shots my encore will print 2 1/2 inch groups at 100 and if I swab, the group is a cloverleaf using 240 grain all lead bullet by pr bullet.

Has any one chronographed laods of Black Horn vs. 777 to see which offers more velocity?

I wold use loose 777. I think 120 is supposed to be max on the loose 777? Or did that change? It sounds like you are not interested in going that high anyway. I would not reccomend BH 209 in a plunger style knight. I love bh209 in my knight disc extreme with that conversion kit for the bolt and TC triumph. I have had bh209 throw more stuff back in my face with the plunger type knights not sure what it was that was hitting me but it hit me in the cheek below my eye. I was wearing saftey glasses but dont when hunting so I couldnt be comfortable letting my boys or me for that matter shoot it for hunting.

C Roy,
You do not need 150 grain loads or premium bullets for your NC deer (or any others). People who have shot many, many deer (read actual experience) will tell you that 90 to 110gr loads, combined with a basic 240-300gr (XTP, Gold Dot, etc.) bullet will do just fine.

Anyone else have issues with Black Horn in Knight's plunger style rifles?

I just made the switch to bh209 and 300gr.shockwave for my traditions pursuit. Started with 90gr which grouped about an 1 1/2" at 100yds then tried 100gr. and stopped there with a .829"group,will be trying it at 200yds soon.

C ROY,

BH lights like a champ in my USA Knight with the Disc Extreme conversion(red jackets). It's faster than 777 and much easier to clean. 777 is a PITA to clean.

Try the 250grn SW/SST or the 250TMZ. I'd start at 100, then try 110 and light it with CCI209M or Fed 209As.

Good Luck

loder

C Roy, Like I said I am not sure what it was that hit me but it happened 2-3 times with my sons MK 85 with 209 conversion and am pretty sure before the lehigh sp/ conversion had it happen with the knight disk extreme. Maybe it has someting to do with the stronger magnum 209's that are needed for BH 209. The stronger primers may be blowing back, kicking out stuff or something.

c roy, BH209 is not recommended in plunger style rifles. Some have tried it and ended up pulling primers out of their foreheads due to the pressure it makes. Don't try it, its not worth risking an eye over. There are plenty of affordable muzzle loaders on the market that will shoot BH209 and safely.

I have a couple cannisters of 777. I think I will shoot those up first before moving on to something else. If I can not find a load to shoot with 777, it is probably not the powder but the rifle.

Or "the nut behind the butt" .

I have found that 777 does not degrade as badly as Pyrodex,but it does degrade. I keep mine in the jug, in a Zip Lock bag and in 30 cal ammo sealed can.
Still,it seems to not shoot as well the next year. Now I throw out anything from last year and buy a fresh jug.Saves chasing ghosts.

thats funny saddlesore, got an old bud that does that to, he makes some nice fireworks for new years night with his old powder

Gunner

I tried the BH-209 in a Knight MK-85 with full plastic jacket conversion kit-lots of blowback. My MK-85 has the short barrel and shoots very well with 80 grains of T7 loose and 250 Barnes Expanders. With the T7, I do have to swab after ever shot-crud ring. I also shoot a Disk Extreme with NFPJ coversion. Best load is 110 grains, by volumn, of BH209 behind a .458 Remington bullet.

I shot 20 rounds through my encore with no cleaning using the blackhore 209. Get you a bottle its great stuff.

90grs of 209 in a traditions pursuit II with big chunks of lead from precision rifle has been magic for me for the past few years. i'll never go bavk to pyrodex or 777 and thats from a 20 year pyrodex user

i have that bighorn i use 90 gr. of t7 and a 300 gr. hornady xtp shoots great deer never go more than 10 yards

When you guys refer to "plunger type" inlines do you mean generically all the straight tubed receiver types with the cocking mechanism in line behind the primer? If so does that mean BH209 should be used only in closed breech guns like NEF, Encore, etc?

shootem, thats exactly what we mean.

Bolt action knights are ok, break actions like the encore are on.

Plunger style guns like the mk85, cva buckhorn, cva staghorn. These should never fire BH209.

I have been shooting BH 209 in my MK-85 going on 4 years. No misfires, no gas blow-back. I have an original BH 209 booklet that shows the kind of breach plug that should and should not be used. The Knight 209 Breach plug (converted from the original cap plug)indicates that it can be used because the primer is fully enclosed. I will see if I can scan the pictures of the plugs.

There is no mention of the action type, just the breech plug type.

bh209 is not recommended in a plunger style muzzle loader due to the safety factor that the plunger bolt can blow back, allowing the primer to be launched back into the shooters face. Its already happened to others who've tried it in an mk85 style muzzle loader.

you basically shoot at your own risk and if something happens, you were warned LOL.

bigblock455, I do appreciate the heads up! Can you direct me to where that is stated by Western Powder? I want to read more about it, because I have never heard that before. Thanks.

call western powders # and ask to speak with Don Luhr. He will explain things to you clearly.

Will do, thanks. I did not see anything on the web page.

Spoke to a known authority on muzzle loaders (email then phone). He basically called bull $chit. My experince backs that, so I am caaling BS too. Unknown to me I have been using a stiff load too- a bit over 120 gr. for last 3 years. NEVER any issues. Will forward that email to Western poders next.

There is no basis for this wrongful comment. Triple Se7en makes the same or greater pressure as Blackhorn 209 in loose powder form, sometimes markedly greater pressure with pellets. If this comment had any basis in reality, those with pull-cock actions would have been pulling 209 primers out of their foreheads for the last nine years courtesy of Triple Se7en.

None of this is any excuse not to wear eye protection when shooting any firearm. 209 primers don't go anywhere, the reason the once-common three-way breechplugs came with 209 de-primers so you could get them out.

Blackhorn 209 is harder to ignite than organic BP or Pyrodex, and as a result is safer to handle, use, and store. The only reason not to use it in a pull-cock or open action is ignition-- for positive ignition, you'll likely need to open the flash hole.

As for who uses Blackhorn 209 in an MK-85, I can tell you that Tony Knight does. He hasn't been afflicted by any 209 primer launching, and I don't know of anyone who has regardless of black powder substitute.

Thanks for chiming in Randy. Appreciate your help.
-John

sorry to say boys but there are a good number of well known posters on other forums that have tried this and they would back me up and tell you its your eye ball, you can always grow another one if you lose it.

You do it at your own risk, i will never recommend that you shoot it in a plunger style rifle. NEVER.

Posters repeat what they hear. If you can cite Tony Knight telling me it's a no go, or a ballistics engineer from Western saying same, I will pay attention. In the mean time, I am going by 4 years worth of experience. Do you have an MK-85? Have you used BH 209 in it? I have. No more comments from me. Hope you have a great ML hunting season.

hey bud you can get cocky all you want, im just giving you a friendly warning is all. Its your eye, your life, not mine, so do what you will. Be safe

My vote would be to make sure the ML is in good working order and able to use BlackHorn 209. I've been using NOTHING but BH209 since I first tried it out of my Encore. EVERYTHING they advertise about it, I've found to be true. The pink sticky dot is a 3/4 inch...not 1 inch. The bullseye its in is a 1 inch circle. Group measured rite at 3/4 inch at 100 yards...and it will do it everytime I'm up for it.

yep results like that Deg are pretty much normal! Good shootin, i really love the 260gr PT Gold, they fly pretty darn flat and shoot like a rocket.

Injuries happen all the time: CVA Gun Cases.

As far as "plunger" or pull-cock actions, that covers a lot of ground from Knight to White to Gonic, etc., etc. There have been all kinds of 209 adapters, both OEM and aftermarket with some very poorly thought out. You'd need a racing form to track all of them. No powder manufacturer could possibly look to accept liability for a rifle they have never seen, had no hand in manufacturing, and did not sell. If you read the warning on a bottle of T7 or Pyrodex, you'll get the idea in a hurry.

Of course you always wear eye protection, if you want to protect your eyes. I can't think of a single commercial shooting range that lets you shoot without eyes and ears. People do of course shoot all the time without eye protection and there have been injuries from bolster screws, #11 caps, musket caps, and a lot of bleeding foreheads from scopes as well.

The conversion kit sold by Knight is right here: Knight 209 Conversion Kit. It uses red full plastic jackets.

Blackhorn 209 publishes tips for getting the best ignition: BH 209 Ignition Guidelines.

No question, it does work best in sealed actions: Savage 10ML-II, T/C Omega, etc. If you are using the red full plastic jacket conversion, whether MK-85 / LK-93 / Knight Wolverine, the hammer just crushes the red jacket, confounding those who would like to re-use them. It is one beefy spring, to be sure. If someone has managed to shoot a red plastic jacket 209 out of their Knight pull-cock, do they have a name?

Regardless, of course you wear eye protection. Now if someone thinks that 209 primers go flying out of their pull-cock muzzleloader, rather than just crying "warning Will Robinson" . . . take a couple of minutes to post a YouTube video to properly inform your fellow shooters, rather than just making unsupported statements.

unsupported statements like you make all the time? First by reviewing CVA muzzleloaders and then ripping them apart when you get on Savages payroll?

Do i dare post the blown up links to the savage ML.


Hell ive had an 209 adapter explode off my gun due to the person doing the machining, changing the original design and not informing the company.

shooting bh209 in a plunger style muzzleloader is just plain dangerous.

You might consider informing Tony Knight, Del Ramsey of MMP sabots, and DOC White of your "discovery."

I got a Lehigh Gem II breech plug for my Knight Disc Extreme for using Blackhorn 209. A fellow in here advised me to get one. I have absolutly NO blow back at all with it. Not sure if they make one for your model or not, but would be worth checking into...

I just knew old Randy couldn't make it through this post without a CVA bash.

You won't hear it from Western Powders. As a matter of fact, Western Powders called me today and informed me that 1)no, they have not witnessed any issues and further that Don Luhr did a goodly amount of shooting at General Dynamics with Blackhorn 209 before it hit the market . . . with an MK-85, and no issues.

No powder company can assume liability for obsolete firearms. As for the legacy costs associated with all the Enfield style frontloaders produced over the last 25 years, there is no logic in chasing the countless variables involved.

There are very simple steps anyone can take. 1) Wear eye protection. We all should be anyway, and fragile percussion caps, much less 209 primers, can generate debris as can blackpowder and other propellants as well. Of course there is flying debris, what would you expect from organic blackpowder that leaves 50% of itself behind as solid residue?

2) 209 primers themselves do not comport to any standards. Battery cup anvil primers vary widely in strength, so use a tougher 209 not prone to flying apart such as a Federal 209A.

3) Hammer configuration from pull-cock actions vary. Many have generously large shrouds that ensconce the primer or cap . . . a good thing. Others are flap hammers with no shroud that allow for more debris.

4) Hammer springs themselves vary in strength, many age, corrode, and suffer from low-maintenance or no maintenance. A twenty year old spring rusting way in the garage cannot be expected to be nearly as strong as a proper hammer spring in good condition.

5) You can't prove a negative, yet all there are are various unsubstantiated reports. Wear protective eyewear and pay attention.

6) There are also non-factory parts, modified parts, lightened mainsprings, and aftermarket parts that have been both introduced and discontinued over the years. If you are playing with a twenty year old, rusty muzzleloader, it only makes sense to use extra caution.

Blackhorn 209 is at its best with sealed action, current production inlines used with full strength 209 shotshell primers. No question about it. Use of Blackhorn 209 in an obsolete, pull-cock frontloader requires a little more attention to detail and a muzzleloader in proper operating condition.

It is an approved blackpowder sub by T/C, BPI, Traditions, Knight, and Savage Arms. Now, if any of these folks have inlines that are unsuitable for Blackhorn 209, they have failed to warn anyone about it.