Has anyone ever used this type of muzzleloader? The main questions I have are how it shoots, ranges, and accuracy.

buy one you wont regret

I load mine on the low end around 1900 fps. Still out to 250 yards with a 290 grain barnes hold dead center on a whitetail and you have a dead deer. Every load I have tried shoots amazing. Ragged holes for groups.No recoil easy cleanup well worth the money.

What he said.

What kind of powder is best and how many grains

We all know you can't put a lot of faith in Toby, but there might be a little truth in this. Maybe not. Who knows for sure?

http://www.namlhunt.com/muzzleloaderlies.html

Are you shooting the Barnes MZ or the TMZ 290

What is your opinion concerning this muzzleloader

Does anyone really think in this day and age of sue for anything that savage would market this gun if there were problems? I will not share all my feelings on Toby Bridges. Will say this though he was at one time a huge fan of the savage. He was very well known for pushing the safety envelop of the gun. He tested and recommended all kinds of crazy loads including duplex and even triplex loads. If anyone was gonna blow up a gun it was going to be him. None the supposed problems came to light until after his relationship with savage ended. It would seem he has an ax to grind. I could type a lot bunch more.

I agree with you, but is the gun still being made?

Is any smokeless ML being made?

Just asking. I don't follow it too much, because it's not legal here.

I am shooting the TMZ in a MMP high pressure sabot. Load it over 44 grains of 5744.

The savage was discontinued. But due to demand they have continued making them. Originally they had a big disclaimer when they brought them back that there would only be one or two more runs. Now they are standard item no disclaimer. Other option for smokeless is the Bad Bull Muzzleloader. Very expensive but a great gun as well.

Something to think about. I could load it with BP for ML season, and use smokeless for rifle season.

I think. I'll have to check on using smokeless powder. Generally, you use anything in rifle seasons here.

Savage is still making them.

Or I can put one together for you. Or Bad Bull, SMI, Swinglock, even Hart I think.

In my opinion, smokeless is as good as it gets when it comes to muzzle loading. Minimal cleaning required. No smoke. Great accuracy and terminal performance. I understand some people do muzzle loading for the smoke and cleaning, and I totally understand that, but it's not for me!

Here's a post I put together for another thread last night:



I recently put this one together for a customer. It weighs 7# 13oz as shown in a McMillan HTG stock. This is definitely on the lighter end for the bolt action variety. Some of the 45/70 conversions that guys do are lighter.


It shot ok too:
Shots 4 & 7 were when I got the barrel too warm. At smokeless pressures, sabots become very sensitive to barrel heat.

Shot 1 @ t=0hrs
Shot 6 @ t=12 hrs
Shot 8 @ t=24 hrs
to give you an idea of cold bore consistency.



Here's one my brother took at 175 yards. Prone off of his back pack. I had spooked it out of a draw too him. He mouth bleated it to a stop in the middle of a corn field. No time to range, but he new it was less than 200 yards, so he put it right on the button. Perfect shot and the 195 grain expander never fails!

I'll get in touch later. I'm going to go ahead and still hunt the timber this year like i've been doing all my life.

Next year I want to try some long range big game hunting before I get too old to try something new. The only hunting i've done long range is coyotes with CF guns. I want to hunt big game long range with a ML.

I couldn't use smokeless in ML season, but i'm fine with using it in rifle season with a ML. that actually puts me at a disadvantage to the CF guns. I like that.

Why didn't I think of this before? Do they really recoil less? At 70 years old. I'm getting sensitive to recoil.

Yes, they do recoil less, they shoot great, the laminated stock models are a tad heavy. I'm pushing 70 also, and I have no problem shooting mine. I have one for sale on the fire in the classifieds if your looking. Always had a backup, now I only need one.

Wow,that looks just like a Remington 700. Don't you have to have a rod?

Collapsible 3 piece rod that is carried in a sheath. Go to smokelessmz.com and click on the ramrod video. Pretty slick set up with the rod. Also any Rem 700 short action stock can be used on the 700ML. If you go with BDL stock you will just need bottom metal. The BDL stock makes a nice little storage compartment to hold sabot/bullet.

Where can I get a price for a 50cal complete gun and information pertaining to its performance?

A friend of mine makes up smokeless muzzleloaders by taking Remington muzzleloaders and rebarreling with McGowan barrels and aftermarket stocks. His cost is $1200 to $1400. Last time I talked to him he was finishing up a dozen. He also uses a three piece collapsible ramrod.

This is one of my Savage 10ML-II's, this one likes 44gr 5744 behind a 325gr FTX and a MMP Orange sabot.
I taken one deer at 247yds with the rifle laying over my pack as a rest and 2 of them a 200yds from a treestand offhand.
These things will shoot if you can.




Shot at 100 yds with above load


My Ram Rod



Here's a new one of mine that's haveing a stock fitted to it right now.
Savage 10ML-II action w/ Fluted 25" 45cal 1:22 Pac-Nor barrel

I didn't know that savage made a 45 cal or did you have it special made?

Seems like the majority of smokeless gun nuts rebarrel to .45 cal.

That's one of the aftermarket barrels I was telling you about.

Bill does great work! The ramrod he supplies actually comes from me. He's my best customer.

How can I get one of the 45 barrels to put on a savage

http://smokelessmz.com/savage.html

Will this barrel fit the remington 700 ml or will it have to be a different barrel

You need a different barrel.

Here's a cost breakdown on the 700ML conversion. This is for a Pac-Nor barrel. Knock off about $120 if you go with a McGowen barrel instead.

http://smokelessmz.com/700ml.html

It's a proven fact that Toby blew the gun up on purpose because he was mad at Savage. It was rebarreled and is still shooting today. The Savage is the best muzzleloader still in production.

Bill doesn't hang out here, so I didn't expect you to know him. Did he build yours? The last time I was over at his place he had some beauties. And he had some really nice targets that he had shot too.

Bill has the barrels threaded to fit the Remington action and has the interior of the barrel threaded for a Savage breech plug.

I missed this post the first time through. Small world isn't it with my neighbor being a customer of a Campfire member. I thought that collapsible ramrod looked like what Bill was using.

savage ml. 42 gr 4759 followed by parker 275 hydro

If i'm not mistaken. The gun is based on the Savage 10. Does it have the same balance?

This is indeed a fact. Also, back to the original question, these are flat out the best ML on the market. I have 2, both will shoot sub inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The sabot is a major factor, I use MMP, a Hornady 300 grain XTP, 65 grains of Reloader 7 and it's a combination that is giving me around 2250 fps and deadly. For those that say they aren't legal, what isn't legal? If you can't shoot smokeless powder then shoot what is legal and use the same rifle.

I wouldn't consider buying the gun if I was going to shoot BP in it. I see no advantage then. I can easily shoot MOA with a CVA BP gun at half the price, and a much lighter gun.

We can't use smokeless here in ML season, but i'm going to get one and shoot it in rifle season. Just because I like muzzleloaders, and I don't like taking the easy way.

I'm looking for a 250yd muzzleloader for rifle season. I'll use a caplock, real BP, and a PRB for ML season.

Here's a new one of mine that's haveing a stock fitted to it right now.
Savage 10ML-II action w/ Fluted 25" 45cal 1:22 Pac-Nor barrel



Soory about that, I moved the picture into another folder in photobucket and lost in my post.
This was put together by HillBill and he is building a Remington for me right now.
All parts came from Luke!

The advantage is you can shoot either in it, it has a fantastic trigger and you have a proof tested barrel. You may have a CVA that shoots MOA but I sure never have and I've never had a Knight that did either. If I shoot Blackhorn or whatever that stuff is in it I do lose a little velocity and a little less accuracy but it's still better than any other ML I've owned.

It's pretty common. Say what you will about CVA guns. The Bergara barrel is accurate.

I don't think their accuracy is in question....it's the other things.

Example?

This was the initial question and the one I was answering. I don't think he was asking about CVA's. Nobody is arguing with you about yours. I stated my experience and that was in response to the initial posting. Again, some CVA's may or may not shoot as well or better than yours or a Savage or a centerfire or anything else. If you like yours, great, I'll stick with my Savage's as I like them. No, they don't have the trigger, the proof barrel, the stock options ....that the Savage has but we aren't discussing that. I have the OPTION to shoot either and I like that option. If it's legal, smokeless hands down beats the other options ALL the time not to mention it's much cleaner.

I've already said I have interest in the gun. I just wasn't too impressed with your groups, and said i'd be getting a Savage for other reasons than accuracy, because if I wanted just accuracy the CVA does fine. What I posted wasn't even my gun. Many results like it can be shown like it for CVA's. They're very accurate, but can't shoot smokeless, and that's where my interest is right now.

You're not impressed by sub inch groups out of a muzzleloader? Well good for you. Guess I'm way too limited then in my experience and knowledge and obviously mine won't work for hunting big game. Guess that also applies to nearly 3/4 of all rifles out there, cause there are a lot of centerfires that barely do an inch or a lot that won't do that well that work just fine for hunting every year. Good for you, half inch groups are great out of most rifles let alone muzzleloaders. Guess just like centerfire, since each shot is a reload, I could work up more accurate loads but to me, sub inch is just fine in my limited abilities. I'll be happy with mine and the fact that I can get a lot higher velocities if I so desire.

http://cvaguncases.com/Case___Information_Page.html

Warning the pictures are gross and should not be viewed by those with a weak stomach.

http://cvaguncases.com/Photographs_Page.html

Sorry, I misread your post. You said sub inch 3 shot groups. I read it as 3 inch groups. That wouldn't have been impressive.

Old news. Do you know how many times TC has been sued? First thing that has to proved is, if it wasn't user error, or the gun. Muzzleloaders are always going to be open for users making mistakes.

As to the CVAs there was a recall on them. Barrels were shipped from Begara without being proofed is what I have heard. Further proof that there is no problem with the savage. If there was we would see the same type of action taken as CVA did.

The recalled CVA's were before they started to use Bergara barrrels. I only see one Bergara barrel on that list, and it could be someone jumping on the bandwagon.

Not old news...current models....Most CVAs don't have Begara barrels and they aren't proofed.

INCORRECT.

The recalled guns were made in 1995 and 1996. 96-97% of them have been recovered.

Bergara barrels came out in the early-mid 2000's. They are of high quality steel and many gunsmiths are converting them to shoot smokeless powders " Centerfire 45-70 barrels" and have nothing but good things to say about the quality of steel while they are reworking them.

Knight, TC, and other muzzleloading companies do NOT proof test barrels either, its common practice to only test a small # from a number of runs. Germany and some other euro countries do have a policy that ALL muzzleloaders and firearms that come into the country must be sent to the proofing house and fired with 30% more powder than the rifle is listed for as a max load. Plenty of cva and traditions shooters in germany. Had a friend there who was big time into shooting cva's until he sadly passed away while on duty.

Swamp,

All the CVA inlines now have Bergara barrels. They only stamp Bergara on the Accura and Apex, because those have the final polishing. All of them are made by Berara. The same company owns CVA and Bergara. Why would they use anything else?

It's cheaper to use non-Bergara barrels on the bottom of the bucket models (most of them.) Only the top end models get the "good" barrels. For me it doesn't make any difference. I don't want anything made in Spain ever...period. Their Corporate misdeeds, such as marking guns with phony proof marks well into 2006 and cloning American made products which they sold at a loss to run American companies out of business are just some of the reasons I'd never buy a spanish made muzzleloader.

a true bergara barrel has about 3 different polishing stages, thats all. It does make for a beautiful bore however.

You changing your mind again swampy? You just wanted a free apex to shoot earlier.

It does make a difference, because Bergara barrels don't blow up, and that's all CVA uses now. Isn't that what we were talking about? So, CVA's don't blow up. They're very accurate, and have one of the best triggers on any ML. They aren't overpriced either.

Why shouldn't they be the best selling ML there is?

Because most of what you just posted is false?

Well, i'm speaking from experience with the guns. What are you speaking from?

The same....and more than you.

More what? You bought more CVA's, or you think you have more experience in general?

Let me guess your answer.............Both.

Correct...

You know this how?

Here's one I put together this week. Older used HS stock, but she definitely shoots.

It's for sale if anyone is interested...



6 shots in <.9" at 100 yards. Lot of wind today, but for me if it's under an 1" at 100, that's about as good as I can shoot.

FWIW, Natchez Shooter's Supplies currently has Savage muzzle loading rifles in stock.

www.natchezss.com

TH, like I mentioned, you would get plenty of response about the Savage on this forum. I hope at least some of it has been helpful.

Here is my Knight KP1 with a touching sub 1" group using 120 grains of BH209, CCI 209M primer, Harvester Crush Rib Black sabot, and Hornady 250 grain SST ML series bullet, and the best!!!!! at 100 yards with 1X DOT scope.

Not pretty because I was sighting in different loads and didn't care about the target. I was using 2 sand bags in a prone position off the tool box on my truck.

My expensive cva wolf with a $40 bushnell scope at 100 yards with 250gr powerbelt aerolites, 100gr BH209 and cci 209m primers.

Nice shooting.

As mentioned accuracy isn't the problem.

Yea I measured it with a tape, and yes I have a good eye.

Now that Wolf from Bigblock is something to gawk about right there! Damn nice shootin dude! I need to put a real scope on mine and see if I can punch a group like that.

What model $40 Bushnell scope you using on it? Does it take the recoil????

i believe its the sportsman, can't see the stamping as its under the mount.

Had it on everything from a 30-06 to this 50cal muzzleloader and fired countless shots with 120gr BH209. Holds up good and tracks well.

Have a newer model bushnell and the rear lens came unglued still have to send that one back.

I've got a cheap little Wolf i'll be hunting elk with this year. You'll be more impressed at the 200yd groups.

What load are you using? Are you carrying enough energy at 200 yards?

I'll use 110gr of BH 209, and a 250gr Thor. Plenty of energy.

What's that give you for muzzle velocity?

thats aprox 1,970 FPS. Maybe a bit less since the wolf has a 24" barrel.

I will be using the wolf with 100gr BH209 and 250gr as a back up gun this year depending on how far away they are LOL.

There you go. The 200yd distance is more for mule deer, but i'll take it for elk is everything is perfect. Very rare.

I try to always get much closer. Much closer.

a little shaky at 200 yards can really send that bullet some where it shouldn't go. Gets worse too, especially at your age when you get mixed up and think your viagra is your heart medication, then you really start to shake.

LOL... I bet you really have to watch the wind drift too!

That's why I shoot close youngster. Besides, I don't want to make you look bad.

Got any pic's of the so called 200 yard shots you care to post up?

You would know it was shot at 200yds how?

I put no faith in pictures. I shoot at a range to sight in my gun. Not to brag on a forum.

All I said was you'd be impressed at the 200yd groups for such an inexpensive gun.

Go buy one and try it.

LOL

I'll trust your judgement, and no reason to distrust your statements (unless your not telling the truth......LOL), but at least give a grouping diameter/something?

Well, you said "so called". That doesn't show trust.

I can tell you better tomorrow. I'm going to try the Wolf I have now at 200yds. I was talking about a Wolf I had in the past, and others i've seen.

Maybe i'll even take a picture of the target. That will be a new experience for me.

Hopefully it won't be as windy as it has been lately.