For deer???

I have no experience with MLs at all, and wonder what is the best/simplest/safest/easy to clean and maintain/and accurate muzzleloader available???

as a 2nd question, what is the best for $500 or so???

Are ya lookin' for traditional or inline?

I'm not familiar with the inline guns, so can't speak for which have proven troublesome.
With the traditionals, stay away from the cheapest imports. The locks on them aren't well made and the barrels won't withstand Reasonably high pressures.
Care and feeding of the traditional is pretty much the same regardless of make or model. With a $500 budget you should be able to pick up a good used T/C or CVA along with plenty of the necessities to feed and care for it.

The simplest is going to be an inline with regard to cleaning and safety. Accuracy will be great with any of them. Beginning with CVA Wolf at $180 through the CVA Accura at $400, T/C Impact starting around $230 to the Omega at $300 to the Triumph around $500, and Traditions Pursuit around $250-300 to Vortek for around $400, you have lots of choices. Some have easy to remove breech plugs while others have conventional types that require a wrench.

I hate shooting pellets and have gone to BH 209 for ease of cleaning and extra power. Not all breech plugs will handle it though. It needs a flash hole diameter of .034-.035. It works well with my brother's Impact and my Omega and Traditions Pursuit XLT. We do not have to wipe the bore between shots and there is no nasty 777 crud ring to deal with. We shoot saboted bullets weighing between 250 and 300 grains with good results on deer.

If I were starting from scratch, I would probably buy the CVA Wolf and add the special breech plug for reliability with BH 209. I would shoot Hornady .452 caliber 300 grain XTP pistol bullets out of a sabot and call it all good.

actually, I'm thinking that eventually i'll do both...
My personal interest is all in the traditional, but my biggest motivator is to enable my Illinois deer hunting, and i do believe that an inline would be best for that purpose...

Our regular firearms deer season is a busy time in the woods and mostly involves hunting from a blind or stand, or organized drives... properties are jealously guarded, and the ability to shoot with precision, and put deer on the ground quickly is desirable...

Illinois has legislation in committee to allow the use of pistol caliber rifles for deer, and if that passed, i'd go straight to that option, for my local primary season deer hunting...

But we always have late season hunts, which are very low pressure hunts... i'd love to go for a walk with a Hawken, i do believe...

Here's one, a Hawken, on GB with little time left and resonably priced.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=315238308
His BN is about max what I would pay for used though, even a T/C.

i would agree about the locks .
however the barrels will hold any reasonable charge
110 grains or less . that charge will kill any big game animal in North America.
Any CVA or Traditions will do fine .

With your amount though , I would go with a Lyman GPR .
As for hunting you don�t need an inline for hunting . Any of the traditional guns will do just as well .
Unless of course your wanting to shoot sabots and copper core locks , with pellets and such .
Which if that�s the case then you will want one of the modern inline rifles

what i'm looking for, primarily, is simplicity... and the ability to mount decent optics...

this advice, below, sounds simple enough...

Check out the CVA Optima or CVA Accura V2 for inline models.

As long as it isn't made in Spain it will likely be safe to shoot. I'd get a T/C or a Knight.

John .
your going to hear this type of BS from some folks . its nothing but repeated words from those with little practical experience OR with money buying their opinions .
So that opinion falls into the �EHO� category . its like [bleep] ,everyone has one .

most certainly if your purchasing a used weapon , you want to make sure its been cared for properly and that the PO wasn�t an IDIOT and either improperly modified the weapon or chose to disregard manufactures load data .

Simply put its probably safe to bet that there have been more Spanish and Belgian made muzzle loading rifles sold and used since the early 1970�s , then just about any other maker out there .
don�t fall for the US made is better Bull either . Simply put , its not always true . Those makers have issues as well

As to a TC .
Personally. While they are a good rifle , I never much cared for them . No real reason .
But know that TC no longer exists . Its simply another name for Smith and Wesson . So if you have an opinion on S&W, well that�s what you will be buying .
Also IMO , TC rifles are for the most part going for way more then what they are worth . Unless you could find one for 2-300, I would still go for the Lyman

Now you could go with a modern rifle .say a Remington 700 . Im sure Swampman has at least a 1000 for you to chose from . But again ??????? he is saying TC or Knight .
if thats your choice , leave knight along and buy a TC . at least you will have some kind of resale value down the road

swampy is the forum douche bag

I'm going to second the Lyman recommendation - though please understand that my comments don't have near the experience backing them as Captchee's.

The Lyman GPR is available in two twist rates - a 1 in 60 or 66 that is ideal for patched round balls and then a Hunter model sporting a faster twist (forget the actual rate) that is more appropriate for sabotted pistol bullets and heavier conicals.
If you want to add a bit of a personal touch, the GPR is available in kit form - the factory rifles look nice, but they appear to be built out of the kits - you buy the kit and fit the wood to the metal for an even better rifle.

Lyman also markets a Trade Rifle that is considerably cheaper and has a 1 in 48 twist that is an acceptable compromise for prb's and sabots. I own one of these and it is very accurate with about any round ball load and certainly acceptable with a 240 grain XTP or Cheap Shot bullet.

I scratch my head when I see people comment on how much easier an in-line is to clean. I pop the key on my Trade rifle, back out the nipple, set the breech end in hot soapy water and swab the barrel with a patch. The patch and jag draw water up in the barrel and things get nice and clean. I really like a large plastic Folger's coffee can for this task.

That's the traditional side of me - you need to get yourself one of those rifles (to start) and then:

There are so many decent in-lines available today and the 209 based primer ignitions certainly provide a more carefree ignition source.

Any of the ones listed above should provide a decent hunting tool, though they lack the character of a wood traditional rifle - even the ones like my Trade rifle that are not so historically correct.

I own two, and proudly hunt with them both - one being an older T/C Black Diamond that was one of the early "magnum" style rifles that hit the market. Magnum being capable of handling the pressures of 150 grain BP equivalent charges. That means very little to me, a charge of 100 grains eq absolute max has always met my needs.
This rifle has a fast twist - maybe 1 in 28 - that handles about any sabot or conical bullet on the market - maybe, but more on that later - and is scary accurate with a prb.

My second choice is a Savage smokeless model. Again, a fast twist that handles about anything (qualified) and actually does add some cleaning advantage over my sidelock rifle. The right load and bullet combination can produce tremendous accuracy and there are advantages to the increased velocity, etc..., but I'm of the camp that thinks those things are way over rated - particularly in the electronic world.

My accuracy qualifications above - really with all ML rifles - is that when you start dinking with sabotted bullets and such prepare yourself for a possible bad experience or two. If you do not have a combination that your rifle likes you may see results that will absolutely make your head spin and you might find yourself tightening stock screws, changing scopes, or whatever.
Don't start ditching hardware if you run in to that, try a different load combination.
I don't want to make that sound too discouraging - just be aware that it is a situation that you may run in to.

I always do initial sight-in on any ML with prb's, certainly easier loading and way cheaper to shoot. Once I get things dialed in where I want it and have some confidence in my hardware I start messing with load type.

Lot's of blabber on my part here, but it is a past time that I love.

I guess that if I wanted to get in at the overall cheapest today I'd buy one of the affordable CVA's or whatever listed above.

My real preference would be to start with either the Lyman GPR or the Savage, and then as quick as financially possible I'd add the complement. Then I'd have a reasonably priced fairly traditional rifle and a great performing modern ML at a reaasonable price.

I'd do the GPR 1st!

I just don't want to see anyone get hurt. That made in Spain stuff is just dangerous.

If you live and hunt in Illinois, are you aware that they allow smokeless powder to be used in MLs designed for it? The Savage 10ML-II has proven to be a very simple and easy to care for ML that can digest smokeless powder or any of the various subs like Blackhorn 209, T7 or White Hot pellets if you just have to have the smoke and stink. When used with smokeless loads they are a very capable 200yd deer rifle that drop deer with authority. Myself and about a half dozen other locals have been using them for several years now and none of us would ever dream of using any other inline ML.

the only thing dangerous is your ignorance.

Excuse me?

Directed towards Swampman I'm thinking.

yep that was towards swampman LOL

All right then,LOL!

butches black powder boreshine

2 wet patches
passed back and forth 2 times each thru the bore
= no more 777 crud ring
then
2-3 dry patches
= ready to shoot

tru dat..................................

give it a try
it works....................

I have no idea why the vast majority of hunters are so sure the only decent combination in a black powder rifle needs to be the best in high velocity and inline design,selecting muzzle loaders that are 50 caliber exclusive of the other options.
while theres some fine rifles available in that type Ive never regretted purchasing a 58 caliber hawken kit and building a rifle, and Ive also got a 58 caliber TC big bore, both are fully able to kill deer and elk very effectively out past 150 yards or so, with a good load, and both shoot round balls very accurately (2" off a bench rest at 100 yards) or 500 grain minis in fairly decent groups 3"-3.5"
check your local gun store and pawn shops for used hawken style rifles, the better brands like BROWNING (54 cal)and some Thompson center rifles (54 and 58 cal)are usually available fairly cheap and make good hunting rifles




http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/617/1

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/615/1

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/25...n-70-twist-32-percussion-1137-steel-blue

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/58_muzzleloaders.htm

Traditional guns are fine for 50 yards and under. I hunted with them exclusively for many years. You also need to be able to live with an occasional misfire. I would stick with the T/C .....owned two of the Brownings and they weren't very accurate.

50 yards and under? Oh my! How the mountain men ever survived.

Lyman Great Plains Rifle in 54cal and percussion, great shooters. I do not care for their flintlocks though.

Swampman700 . Come in from the rain. Ive shot Deer out of a side lock 45-50-54 cal the 45 cal 70 gr with a maxi CVA Kentucky 50 CVA,TC 90 gr an round balls, Maxi, an Sabot. The 54 100 gr maxi farwst was with a side lock CVA Striker . Now these guns all had what was called then acrat shot,Replace the nipple an use this screw in in place of the nipple an use a rifle primmer . Now its called a Mag Spark which use a 209 primmer but still a hammer style . The cleaning is the same as said above an u still have to oil it an Breach plug verse the Nipple, mag spark, or accara shot. Now the 45 took a deer one shot down 10 feet 128 yards.Never in 42 years with these guns have I shot that far again

Now big block ,,, , if 50 yards is swamp mans accepted range while resting off the custom rifle mount that he put on his golf cart , that�s ok . I see nothing wrong with that .
Heck I set my limit at 100 even though I know for a fact I can hit targets at 3 times that distance , off hand

if your considering building yourself a custom or semi custom rifle from a parts assembly like those that 340mag posted links to . Know that you will need to do some reading and study well before hand . If not then you may just end up spending 2-3 X that amount when you have to have someone finish the rifle OR you screw it up .
Im not saying you cant build one . There isn�t any reason why you cant learn .

If that route is a consideration then I would look at Pecatonica river .
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/
Dick is in most cases cheaper then Track of the wolf . You get the same components, made by the same companies . The wood for the stock is also for the most part a much higher grade then what you will get from ToW for the 2X the cost . Again same stock as track sells , your just buying from one of their manufactures .

The other place I would recommend is Muzzleloader Builder supply .
Good folks with quality products .
http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/

On the top end . Of those offering assemblies, I would put Jim Chambers there . IMO Bar non the very top of the list in quality and getting what you pay for in every aspect especially if your thinking of paying for gunsmith fees like inletting and such

http://www.flintlocks.com/

The cheapest avenue I have found for such parts assemblies would be through Ray Franks at Sitting Fox http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.html
. His assemblies are not to bad quality wise . He does offer up grades on locks , triggers and such . You just have to look and ask . Ray will talk you leg off so give him a call and weigh out your options
Know that there are also a lot of other options out there as far as suppliers who can provide you with either parts or completed rifles

Now build wise , again you have a choice . Build it yourself or have someone build it for you .
The costs for completed guns range greatly just as does the quality of the finished piece .
If however you cant aford to have someone finish the rifle for you , then one of your options maybe to have the rifle built to whats called �in the white �
What that means is that when you get the rifle , its basically built to the point that a kit gun from TC , CVA ,Lyman would be . Whats left for you is the finish work . Prices for in the white guns can also very greatly . One of the reasons is that there are a lot of differing opinions on how far a �in the white � gun should be completed to .
I have seen cases where it was nothing more the parts inlet to a plank and thus the customer has to do all the shaping. But I also have seen �In the white � brought to the point where the only thing left to do was light sanding and application of a finish to the stock
So if you chose that route , make sure to ask ;what is the level of completion of the �In the white � gun your offering me ?

a quality barrel on a correctly loaded hawken in my experience can almost always hold a 4"-5" or smaller group off the bench rest at even 150 yards making it easily capable of killing game even with the patched round ball, keep in mind your 58 cal ballistics easily match or exceed a 45/70.
a properly loaded 600 grain maxi may not be a high velocity load but it punches effectively and usually exits from most angles in my experience on deer and hogs.
obviously you need to know how to correctly load,size projectiles, and lube a rifle bullet or patch and be consistent, to maximize accuracy

Coupla deer 150 yds and over with my sidelocks. 100 gr. T7 with a 240 xtp - 150yds, small, 135# buck - 172yds, same load, different rifle, big doe. I am normally within 100 yards, and usually limit to 150, because that is how far I normally practice to. The loads are certainly capable of killing deer beyond that. I figure I am basically hunting with the equivilant of a very hot load out of a 44mag.

Get a CVA there the best hunting Muzzleloaders made today.


Swampman700 is retarded..

I think Swampman700 is better at yanking everyone's chains than they realize.

He's got you fooled.

Not really. I think he gets a good laugh out of the reactions people have.

SwampMan is definetely entertaining...it's all fun! Happy Thanksgiving to Swampman, Bricktop & Mauser.

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, Stoney!