I have a Green Mountain Brush rifle in .54 cal. This is my first muzzle loader so excuse my ignorance and any incorrect terminology.

I started out using Pyrodex 777 pellets with Hornady Great Plains bullets and had no issues in cold weather but my shot group sucked. This could be due to the pellets being old or maybe my rifle didn't like the bullets? The pellets came with the rifle and I have no idea how long they had been sitting around.

Then I did some reading and learned about Blackhorn 209 and thought it sounded like a great powder.

Gave it a try with Powerbelts, CCI 209 Magnum primers. The first two shots went off with no issues and showed great accuracy. The third shot pushed the bullet out the end of the barrel and that was it, no recoil at all and little to no noise. Tried a third shot with the same result.

Thought maybe it was a primer issue so I picked up a box of Fed 209 magnum primers and had the exact same result. Grabbed the 777 and had no issues.

All three range expereinces were in 10-15 degree above zero weather.

I checked my breech plug and the ignition tube is clear so that is not the problem.

After more time spent on the internet with my good friend Google I found out others have had ignition problems with Blackhorn 209 and that Knight redesigned their breech plug because of this.

I called Knight and asked them if their new breech plug would work in my rifle and they told me to call Green Mountain. Called Green Mountain and the guy didn't even know they had produced any rifles?! He had to put me on hold and go talk to someone else who said to use 777. Thanks for the help Knight and Green Mountain.

From what I can gather this rifle is basically a Knight Disc rifle that was built at Green Mountain while Knight had their doors closed. I honeslty can't see any differences between the two rifles and I know Green Mountain makes the barrels for Knight.

Any ideas on what direction to go in order to use Blackhorn 209 reliably?

I've not had that experience with my T/C Pro Hunter 50 and used it in some harsh conditions.

knights can have issues with bh209. You need the bare primer conversion IMO to be fully successful with bh209.

It sounds as though you had a primer failure not the powder. They recommend that you use shotgun primers for it not ML primers and I know on the CVA's you have to open up the flash hole.

Blackhorn 209 requires a certain degree of resistance from the projectile in order to ignite the powder charge properly. It needs an environment of pressure in order to ignite. This pressure is provided by a full-strength primer working against a bullet that fits tight in the bore.

Both the Great Plains and Powerbelt bullets may not provide this resistance and they begin to move enough when the primer fires to reduce the chamber pressure and let the "fire" go out, so to speak.

BH209 should be used in a muzzle loading rifle only with projectiles that are snug fits to the bore. I would bet your results will improve if you substitute a bullet and sabot that require a short-starter and at least moderate effort on the ramrod to fully seat the projectile.

I use BH209 in a Knight Disk rifle with a bare 209 conversion, Federal 209A or CCI 209M primers, a green Harvester Crush-Rib sabot and a .429 Hornady 300 gr XTP bullet with good results in cold weather.

That's not true if you're going to make a broad statement like that. I've shot hundreds of shots with Powerbelts and BH 209 with zero problems.

I'm not saying that isn't the problem in his gun. I was going to ask him how tight the bullet fit, but it's not true of all guns that use PB's.

No argument from me...the main point is that the bullet must be tight and provide resistance to the ignition. My Knights both work well with saboted bullets and get cranky with bore size lead bullets when using BH209.

The manufacturer of BH209 does not recommend "conical" bullets but does say they work in some guns. Based on my experience (admittedly limited to 4 different Knight rifles), the first thing I would suspect regarding the OP's problem is loose bullet fit.

I also think that there are some rifles, such as TC Omegas, that are more forgiving of this due to their breechplug design. If you have a rifle that works with Powerbelts and BH209, it is a keeper!

Its not a primer failure since it happened with two different brand primers and they both work with 777. And yes I am using shotgun primers not muzzle loading ones.

Your comment about resistance makes some sense but doesn't exlain why I get two rounds off perfectly while the rifle is still at or close to room temperature.

The powerbelts do go in a lot easier than the Great Plains bullets do. I can get the powerbelts in with no started but the Great Plains bullets take some effort to fully seat.

It sounds like the bare primer conversion is the way to go but then I have to take my gloves off to load one which is no fun in the cold. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Ditch the powerbelts and the problem will go away. Trust me, I know. Unlike others who are "experts", my experience is with the Knight 54 cal.

Bill V

OK check that off the list then. The fit of the bullet like the guys above mentioned has merit but I see you didn't reply to that . How was the fit , could you be loosing pressure ?

I take it you are using sabots of one kind or another Bill? If so have you had any issues loading them in cold weather? I am worried about them being a bit difficult once the temps drop but that may not be an issue. I have a few that came with the rifle so I might as well go give them a try.

Ignition is easier at room temperature and more difficult when the rifle is cold. If you are on the ragged edge of ignition to begin with, the temp change will make the difference.

if you are going to do a bare primer conversion, the Lehigh unit is a good choice. And the 2 'hottest" 209 primers are considered to be the Federal 209A and CCI 209M. I would be sure to use one or the other.

......

I have a box of the Fed and a box of the CCi's so I am set in that department.

Any idea on where to get the lehigh breech plug?

The powerbelts are loose enough in the bore that I could be losing pressure and that might explain why I am getting failure to fires after the rifles adjust to the ambient air temp.

Apparently the Lehigh conversion kits are off the market, but the one from Knight should work just fine:

http://www.knightrifles.com/209-conversion-breech-plug-M900044/

The main difference is that the Lehigh had a replaceable vent liner.

NOTE: This assumes that your Green Mountain rifle will accept the Knight parts...

Just heard that it will accept the Knight parts and I found a guy on modernmuzzleloader that is selling some of the Lehigh breech plugs so I sent him a message. Sure hope this cures my problem.

There are not a large number of .54 caliber bullets and sabots out there, but for deer hunting the Harvester 54/.452 Crush Rib should work nicely with a .452 bullet of 250-300 grs, and for big, mean stuff in Alaska you could try this:

http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=18

I envy you your playground.

powerbelts are certainly not the problem, ive fired them with bh209 a solid 9,000 times over the past 2 years, a great deal of those shots on stock cva breech plugs.

some of the knights breech plugs are iffy, some work fine, others are a lot more sensitive.

Knight sells the bare primer conversion and i'd call knight and if you have any trouble, ask to speak with someone else.

On a side note and one thats most important when shooting BH209.

Have you cleaned the flash channel with an 1/8" drill bit to remove the carbon? Heavily fouled flash channels cuts down the amount of hot gasses able to get to the powder.

I had not cleaned it out like that till last night. I will give it another try this weekend and see if that has any impact on it. There was a bit of carbon in there but not as bad as I expected it to be.

Those are the bullets and sabots I initially wanted to shoot out of this rifle but it is next to impossible to find anyone willing to ship them to Alaska via USPS. Everyone wants to ship them via UPS over night or next day air which would be great if I needed them that fast and was willing to pay more in shipping than I was for the bullets. Really annoying but it is all part of living up here.

And you can use a torch cleaner bit to clean the flash hole.

Hey bronco, PM me if you'd like to discuss getting some of those bullets via USPS.

Good idea I didn't think about using one!

Not my Knights. I've used discs and BH209 with great success...I don't believe I ever had an issue, they always fire for me.

Not a lot of expierence here with BH209,but I have a CVA and switched to BH209 for my Colorado elk hunt. I shot the TC Maxi ball and ordered the new breech plug to use with BH209. I have not had any problems with ignition or accuracy out to 100 yards. My maxi balls load tight and I need a starter to load them.

I noticed a couple things on the last posts. One was the bullet was coming out of the barrel after a couple shots, but did not go far. That sounds like the primer and powder are igniting but no back pressure like has been said. Are you pouring powder out of the barrel after the shot? If not then it is burning, just no pressure. Not sure how much a barrel will expand or contract being loaded inside then being taken outside in the cold for a while, but if that's an issue then the bullet being used is close to being to small to begin with. It was also mentioned that if the bullet is hard to load then you must take your gloves off. They should be tight to load each time, even the first time. Another issue is the powder not burning correctly when it has poor ignition will leave a lot of debris or fouling in the barrel making it unreasonably hard to load. It would need to be cleaned each shot if the powder is not burning correctly. BH209 can be shot a lot without cleaning on proper ignitions.
I am going with the loose bullet theory most have mentioned. Load a tight bullet and make certin the ignition system is clear and not fouled from prior poor powder burns.

Good Luck

sent you a pm. please check.

Just to clear things up I never loaded my rifle indoors. I always load it outside.

The powerbelts in my opinion are loose fitting since I can load them one handed and do not need a starter like I do with all other bullets I have used.

The BH209 is igniting but not all at once like it should be so it is either a pressure issue or primer issue or a little of both. Going to try a different bullet this weekend and see if that makes a difference as well as try and get my hands on one of the new style breech plugs. Figure the breechplug cost about the same as two or three boxes of bullets so its a wash either way.

Let me know if you want to try some other bullets, my folks live close to a few shops that carry lots of muzzleloader supplies. I haven't had any ignition issues with my Knight Disc. Mine is a .50 and I use 777 powder and muzzleloader primers with sabots and 240gr hollow point pistol bullets.

I think you just found your problem and answered your own question.

If you have any all lead bullets, slug your bore when it is warm from a couple or few shots, or just slug it indoors with a room temperature or warmed barrel. Measure the bullet and report back.

It sounds to me that a nipple or a breech plug is likely to be a waste of time and money solving the insistent use of fixed size Powerbelts if your bore is slightly oversized. Too bad they don't make Thor's in 54 caliber as that would probably solve the issue without throwing too much money at the rifle for reaping no gains. They would send a few different diameter bullets and you'd pick the right one for your rifle.

I like the crush rib sabot/bullet combo idea best above but you are apparently trying to make your gun work with your choice of bullet / powder combo instead of the other way around. Again, I think your throwing good money at something that has a slim chance of working out.

As to your shipping dilemma, do you know anyone in the lower 48 who may be able to pick up or order some sabot and bullet combos who can also repackage into USPS bulk rate boxes to send your way? Relatives? Friends? Or is that also an shipping obstacle?

Edit:
You could try some 45 caliber .452" Hornady bullets (or any other .452" of choice) with these sabots to see if they snug up in your bore better:
http://www.mmpsabots.com/red.html
and:
http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=18

Broncoformudv;

Unfortunately, with a 54 cal your options are limited. As I mentioned in my PM, the Barnes MZs have proven best in accuracy in my Knight 54, howver the only sabot for the true 50 caliber bullets is the MMP purple and they are difficult to load as they are somewhat oversize at .546-7. As was suggested by others, use either the Harvester or MMP sabots sized to accept any of the .451-2 bullets. I suggest the Harvester as the MMPs are only rated to 90 grain charges (see the MMP website). I have tried both and the Harvester sabots held together with 110 grains of BH209. The MMP sabots completely failed with the same charge.

I am convinced, to obtain the maximum efficiency from a 54 cal, a true 50 caliber bullet in the MMP purple is the way to go. Just count on a Hoppes wet patch and two dry patches between shots. I believe this bullet, sabot and swab procedure will go "bang" in all weather conditions.

Hope this info helps.

Bill V

Sounds like a breechplug issue to me personally, I don't think the powder is getting enough primer flame to properly ignite, I bet your breechplug is fouled from the 777 to the point of constricting primer flame, plus, your flash channel and flash might be just big enough to ignite BH209 when squeaky clean, but not enough when fouled, it might need to be modified or replaced with an aftermarket replacement if available, just my $.02.

One thing I would like to add is BH209 doesn't really like a skirted projectiles like Powerbelts. They do not seal tight enough to adequately ignite the power....IMHO

I've tried them many times and the inconsistency was a dead ringer for me at least, besides even BH209's sight talks about compression and the seal needing to be good.

"A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.

Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.

We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition."

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/

With that being said I would first change out to a sabot projectile and I would get a tight fitting sabot at that. Now if the OP is loading in normal temp, then takes it out to a extreme low temp I would suggest that the light plastic skirt is getting very hard and therefore there is a possibility that the skirt is not sealing properly and/or it is not being able to keep consistent compression on the powder. Either way I not use Powerbelts with BH209.

Now I don't know what your barrel is sized at being a 54 cal, and if I were you I would take it to a good machinist and have it measured, and go from that measurement to a sabot that will seat correctly. With more fascia on the bullet/sabot pushing out to the barrel instead of just a skirted Powerbelt, well I think it will solve your issues.

Also my gun likes the CCI 209M primer better over the Federal 209A. Just an idea.

Also use a bare 209 breech plug.

My 50 cal Knight (Green Mountain Barrel) likes oversized .452 bullets with looser 50 cal Harvester Black Crush Rib sabots. Maybe try something similar?

Many of th solid lead conicals will vary in diameter. Some of the molds for casting your own bullets will vary and can be measured to find the best one for your barrel size. TC maxi balls in a 54cal weighs in around 405 grains I think. It is flat based and is an awesome bullet.

My thors load with thumb pressure, light seating projectiles are fine IF your ignition set up is sealed greatly.

Even maxiballs did great with bh209

Now if its a knight and the shooter is using the green gas check powerbelts yes, those are not for knight, you'd want the Platinum or the Aerolite that has a larger .507" base for the larger bore guns.

I know when I shot the green gas check powerbelts (hollow point 295 Grain) well they didn't shoot worth a crap out of my Knight, or my CVA. I tried many variations of powder but both rifles didn't like them period. Still have about 1 or 2 packs lingering around.

I know when I finish setting my CVA up for conicals (needed for the northwest) I will not be using powerbelts. I think I will go to Hornady great plains first off.


Big<---- Knight has smaller bores, not larger ones. Around .501 - .502 , So I wonder how they would fit being .507 ????

All powerbelts are .499" gas check on the copper/green powerbelts are .502 the Platinum and areolite gas check is .507"

Knights will shoot best with the platinum or aerolite due to the larger gas check.

What about the CVA Bergara barrel?

I believe mine is .504 so I would assume the Areolite would be a good choice with the 120 grains BH209 I'm using, or a step down to 110 grains?

What is the difference between a belief and a fact? Slug it. You'll KNOW

504 is a sloppy bore-whore IMO.

No wonder you're not interested in Powerbeltches.

Wobble factor...

I won't even consider them except for a point blank finish shot.

Bergara runs .500 to .501"

No wobbling, powerbelts are like any other lead conical, when the powder goes off, the powerbelt swells in the bore to seal up the gasses.

.504" IMO would be way over sized for a cva barrel and most likely an error in measurement.

Sure, the plastic skirt or belt expands to fill the bore but if the copper bullet is only .499 and the barrel is .504 it can exit leaning (canted) at an angle and this may greatly affect accuracy.

That would be a big bore for a modern ML.

Just for some info. The Platinum and Aerolite Powerbelts fit tighter than the rest of the PB's. That's my experience anyway.

I don't know about new CVAs, but my last generation Wolf 209 has a smaller bore, more like .499 or so. I just recently tried the Hornady 300 gr FPB bullet which has a diameter of .502, and it wouldn't even start down the bore, that being said, I can fit a Powerbelt .338 gr Aerotip Platinum down my bore, so, if you happen to have a bore over .499, Powerbelts might not be the way to go, IMO. Just something to take in consideration.

My Accura MR had a .502, and PB's fit nice and tight, and shot BH 209 perfect.

Oh, ok, they must've changed bore dimensions with the new generation, cool.

I'm going to go have it remeasured!

I know it's bigger then my Knight and takes the larger MMP Black HPH-12 with a .451 bullet 250 grain bonded Shockwave. It's a little tight but I still can use a cheap hollow ramrod. I load it up with 120 grains BH209 and can punch a 3 shot touching hole at 100 yards! Shooting out to about 300 yards I'm only roughly down about 8-9 inches. But I really need to confirm that up at the range.

I know the Copper 295 PB's are not tight at all, in fact I would think they would move after seating if walking around.

yeah i'd say you'll be a hell of a lot lower at 300 yards than the 8 or 9 inches.

Hydrashocker,

You need to check your calcs. Sighted in with a 150 yard zero, your drop at 300 yards would be closer to 30".

Bill V

Maybe this weekend I'll head up to the range, gotta work Sat though, but I can only calibrate my CVA right now. I�m still waiting on my new VDC scope from Nikon. 30" seems really low to me for some reason, and right now I am about 1.5" high at 100 yards. Now I�ve shot straight on at a bucket at 300 with this and found the impact and it was just at the bottom of a 3 gal bucket rim. But I need to get an actual target and measure it out, like I said it was just a red neck shot and I thought it was only 8-9 inches. This was at a new range, so I went up with a tape and actually measured it, as before it was just by eye. Everything looks great and was measured out accordingly, however it's not exactly flat, there is about an 8 degree incline upward to the 300 yard mark, 100 is flat trajectory. Don�t think an up hill shot would help myself.

If I get out today I might head over to the machine shop and have both measured at a different facility.

I took the Savage and the CVA/Winchester Apex out for a test drive with BH209 today. Winchester 209 primers.
I started shooting with 777 to verify the rifle was still on.
In the Savage, BH209 farted and barely pushed the Thor out of the barrel, twice.
I aimed the barrel down, popped 2 more primers and loaded with 777 no troubles.
The Cva has a tight bore so I shot Powerbelt 348 lead, no hollow point, no copper.
777 worked fine as usual, BH209 moaned a little and after I waited for a minute I ran a screw down the bore and pulled the bullet.
Swabbed the bore and 777 worked again. I tried Winchester 777 Primers too and they also worked fine.
I'll try BH209 when the weather warms a little but today I was not impressed.
Bh209 is $30 for 10oz., 777is $26 for 16oz. and 777 just works.
I can deal with a little crud ring from 777.
Temps today were mid 30s at time of test.

Apex plug needs some work to work correctly with bh209.

Also noticed you were using w209 primers. They are a bit to cool for the old style cva breech plug.

Clean it out with the drill bit prior to loading?

Yes, the plugs were clean.
I keep the required bit in with each rifles tool kit.
Cva Breech plug

Winchester 209 primers are NOT hot enough. You need either CCI 209M or Federal 209A primers. Also make sure you seat the bullet real good.

I had my CVA plug modified and that helped tremendously!

PS. I still didn't get my range time yet, and I'm trying to find a better way to get a really good measurement on my barrels. The caliper won't reach the inside on the landings because both barrels are hollowed out for easy load. I'm going to have to figure out something like use a divider then measure that?

hornady great plains bullet, push it down the bore half way and then push it back out, measure the lands on the bullet that engraved the bore.

Your full of good ideas!!

that is what is called "Slug(ging) the bore".

Any 'all lead' full bore bullet pushed in, removed and measured lets you know the bore dimensions of your rifle. I recently used 'Buffalo' brand bullets to slug both of my 50 cal smokers. One was .500", the other was .5025"

Ok, sorry to bring this thread back from the dead but I got my Knight KP1 inner diameter measured "Slugged" as you say. Going to get my CVA done but I thought I would post up the results of the KP1.

Well I first smashed a lead maxi-hunter and pulled the breech plug out then pushed it starting from the breech. It smashed in nice and tight but after just about 2-3 inches got really easy and jut pushed right out. What I mean is the ID down by the breech is smaller then the barrel???????

So I got another and this time went down the bore. It was the same all the way down tell about 3" from the breech and sure enough it tightened up. So I pushed it backward out of the bore and measured it with a real nice caliper and lone behold it sat right at .5025", so my first measurement was correct.

If I were to have pushed it the last 3" or so out of the breech it would have been right around .502" to .5015", well I assume anyway. I look forward to do the CVA which I know it's a larger diameter.

So, how could the barrel be different ID guys?

Well you said that you "assumed" the breech area would be .502" or .5015". Did you measure that Maxi-ball that was started from the breech? Was it actually smaller?

It could be roughness, fouling or as you say, a narrower bore. I'd try cleaning the living snot out of that area and see if it gets closer to the average of the rest of the barrel.

Perhaps I should do a similar test just to see if mine are that way.

No I didn't even bother measuring the one from the breech as it fell out of the end of the bore when I tipped it up to get a better handle on the rod. I figured it would anyway by the way it felt.

Now it could be some fouling, but I can't see anything! I am going to try measuing my CVA tonight as I'm not busy and I'm interested if it is the same way. I'll also try to scrub up the breech areas just in case there might be some build up there and I'll also re-measure the KP1.

For whatever the reason, it's definatly narrower.

Last update for this thread.

I measured my CVA Elkhorn Pro .50 cal with a blued Bergara barrel and it came out at .5030 and it was the same all the way up the barrel.