I drew for a NM muzzle deer hunt for next year and don't have much of a clue where to start in choosing a muzzleloader. I want a rifle that would comply with Colorado's muzzle rules (iron sights, no sabots) so I want a rate of twist and barrel length that will work with traditional bullets. Any basic rules of thumb to start with would be helpful. I also need a setup that will work with moderate loads because of a history of retina tears that make heavy recoil a bad idea. I'm willing to accept the range limitations that result from conical bullets and a moderate charge.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

cva accura v2, 250-300gr thor bullet with 100gr bh209. It will do it all and then some.

If I was starting from scratch, I'd get a break-action in-line. Simple, lighter and shorter/better handling than any of the rifles with an "Action" that just takes up space.

Go with a .50 caliber rifle, it's become the standard and there's a much better selection of bullets in .50 than other calibers. .50 is also the minimum for elk in CO.

They are just about all 28 twist these days, which is good for conicals. BH209 is great stuff too. I use 80 grains behind a 350 grain bullet in mine and it's plenty for elk and not too much recoil.

Traditional bullets? How about a traditional (not Traditions) rifle to go with it? Since you're limited to iron sights, they're not as big of handicap as you might think. A .54 T/C New Englander or Renegade with a patched round ball or Maxi Ball over 80-90 grains real black powder, Alliant Black MZ or Pyrodex would do the job nicely.

Most of the newer rifles come D&T for scope mounts. You can mount one for NM and then take it of for CO.

Ditto what Smokepole said. Get a break open action,50 cal.

Not sure about the legality where you'll be hunting, but the Hornady FPB comes in 50 cal 350 and 300 grainers. Shoot well in 1-48" twist if you should decide to go "old school". My old T/C groups them better with 777 than with Goex FF, but either is good enough. Use CCI #11M caps with the 777 and pick that nipple!

Which ever way you go, get started early and get plenty of practice loading and firing so you can work out the kinks before you go hunting. Make sure your setup allows you to fire at least 2 or 3 shots without having to wipe out the barrel. Most shooters use a special rod at the range, but in the field you'll be using the ramrod on the gun, so practice loading with it as well.

If NM permits, get a rifle that will accept a receiver sight or tang sight. Much more accurate than open sights.

NM allows scopes. Only colorado needs open sights/conicals/loose powder.

Seeing how hes hunting CO as well,open sights and the ability to shoot conicals are the first 2 most important things, along with how the rifle fits your build.

bigblock455 has it for u

Got to agree with him on this one, CVA = good, priced right, and should work for you in .50 cal.

Before you jump right into it. Start with some Pyrodex or 777 and save your self some money before you go to theBH209. Around here 209 is $36 for 10 oz. and the other is $22-$23 per pound.

Get use to loading and shooting,cleaning etc, before going to the expensive stuff. Same with the bullets. Some rifles it is harder to load the Thor bullets.

For the 1st 20-30+ rounds, at paper,I would get the cheapest bullets you can find.

Then after you have it mastered, figure out what you want to hunt with and start developing the loads for that.

I hear what you're saying SS, but I'm not sure I agree 100%.

Yes, it's expensive but if he plans to hunt this fall and his main objective is to find a good hunting load then the cost of his powder and bullets will be a small fraction of the cost of the hunt.

If he's gonna do a lot of shooting at the range, then it's a different equation. But from the sounds of it with the recoil issue, I'm guessing he won't be spending a ton of time shooting.

Personally, I'd start with the same bullets and powder I wanted to hunt with, and make sure I found a load that shot well in my particular rifle and (for the OP) that I could handle the recoil of.

Once that was done, if I wanted to practice at the range I'd go for some cheaper components.

in the long run, buying cleaning patches, using water to clean, rust aids, adds more to the cost for pyrodex or t7. BH209 you just buy a $5 bore brush/breech brush set, a can of birchwood casey 2 in 1 bore scrubber which has cleaner and rust protection in it, and thats it. Caring for a muzzleloader that shoots bp-t7-pyrodex involves more care.

I'm going to add this ...

Once somebody selects a ML there's enough knowledge here regarding loads that shoot well, in that model ML, that experimenting to find a good load is greatly reduced or may not be needed.

When I bought my TC Omega I researched loads, settled on one, and shot great from the git go. After sighting it in it was ready to hunt.

That didn't stop me from experimenting though.

cleaning patches= one old tee shirt.
Water= free.
Got to use oil or rust preventative after cleaning no matter what powder.

bh209 can sit on the shelf for years, t7 and pyrodex loose their power over a year, not to mention they can clump up. If you're shooting a modern inline of today, bh209 is taking over as the work horse. Not to mention, swabbing between shots is a thing of the past.

Yes, and you can also use it to wash windows, and wash your car with.

Here we go another slap match between BH209 and the regular black powders.

I've tried quite a few powders so far and nothing I've used came close to BH209 in all areas. But hey, as long as I'm shooting 3 shot MOA at 100 yards in both my guns and with the ease of cleaning I'd pay 50 bucks all day long and not risk that one shot that counts. I have more invested with my tag, gas, to losing overtime, and all the other crap that comes with hunting to skimp on a few bucks when it counts.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.....:P

exactly, spent $500-900 on a rifle and then use a cheap bullet or powder. Doesnt make sense. Just like the guy that spends $65,000 on a new truck and whiles around a $60 oil change.

Please reread my post. I advised to use cheaper components until the guy had a feel for what he was doing. No one said a damn word about gas, cost of tags, losing overtime, shots that counts and on and on and on.

Every time someone suggest that there might be other avenues than 209,you guys act like someone is pulling on superman's cape

A fellow can easily burn up a pound of powder in the initial stages of leaning ML. Also, it gives guy a chance to figure out all the ins and outs of cleaning, what happens when you don't etc.I typically burn a pound of black powder in practice every year before ML season and use cheap maxi-balls I cast myself doing so.

Not everyone is so rich that they have more money than they know what to do with and some are just too lazy to run a patch down the barrel between shots at the range.

With my rifle I can shoot a 2nd shot when needed hunting with out a swab. I have yet to find that I that need three shots to kill something. If someone does, they need to take up center fire hunting with maybe a semi auto rifle

And I don't drive a $65,000 truck. I change oil myself and my truck is a 1998.

For Christ sakes, you guys ways are not the only way.

just giving the fellow the best advice I can offer to him. I still shoot sidelocks with PRB. If cost is an issue, get a sidelock with real black powder and patched ball.

I never said my way was the only way. That's what a forum like this is for. A guy asks for advice, different people give him different advice, and then he has a range of opinions and can make up his own mind.

Smoke. Not directed at you by any means. You gave a polite, reasonable reply

Or you could compromise and use BH 209 with cheap bullets until you get the hang of it. I think BH 209 is worth the extra cost because I can go out and shoot a session at the range in less time and enjoy it more when I don't have to swab 4 times between each shot (spit patch both sides followed by dry patch both sides). However, no sense in buying expensive bullets until you learn the ropes on how to shoot. Once you are comfortable with the process, buy several better bullets and try and find a hunting load.

Thanks to all of you for the advice. I had never heard of any of these products so this is a huge head start. If I try Thor bullets, what's the procedure for choosing which diameter I need?

email for a sizing kit, start with the smallest .500" diameter, load it to see how the pressure is, put it to the side, get the .501" and try it as well, if its super tight, stop and push out the muzzle end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDmFUckyCUI

I only gave him advise from what I've learned, my experiences, and not being prepared when I should have been. There are a lot of factors out there and I'm sure the OP will learn as he goes with plenty of great information from everyone including yourself. Never said there wasn't any other way.

In no way did I put salt under your saddle or insult ones finances, so don't assume everyone is convoluted.

FH � I haven�t ML hunted in several years, but when I did I used a TC Hawken with maxi-balls. Now that I am older�the old TC is too heavy for me to pack around in the mountains��so I picked up a TC Omega from a friend and plan on using it this fall. Suggestions on loads for it to start with from your experience? Thanks.

A 348 grain Powerbelt ahead of 80-90 grains BH209 works well in my TC in-lines.

Thanks Smokepole. I'll get out and give it a try this weekend if this dang winds slows down!

Range report and questions:

I followed advice here and got a CVA Accura V2, and ordered the modified breach plug that CVA recommends for use with BH209. Using Remington 209 primers (all that was available locally), I have had a few failures to fire with 209, and a couple of instances when it fired but late/weak. I swapped out the plug for the stock one and tried pyrodex 50/50 pellets instead, which worked fine, though dirtier of course. Questions: Does BH want a different primer, and if so which brand? Also, if I use powdered Pyrodex or 777, which plug should I use? The "BH209" plug has a roughly 3/4" deep cone shaped recess in it, whereas the standard plug has a flat face. The CVA website claims that the BH209 plug should be used with any granulated powder, but given the ignition issues I encountered I wondered what others' experience have been.

Very happy with the rifle overall. It's accurate, and the trigger is great for an off-the-shelf gun.

BH209 requires a magnum prime for reliable ignition.

Western Powder recommends either a CCI209M or a Federal 209A. WW209 standard shotshell primers (not the WW 777) are right behind CCI and Federal primers in brisance (how much spark). Standard Remington primers fall well below the three mentioned and are probably the cause of your ignition problems. Reliable ignition with BH209 without using a magnum primer is a known problem.

WW 209 primers run a tad long/big which can be a good thing or not. They can be difficult to close with a tight breech or can fill a loose breech and prevent excessive blow-by. WW209 primers are what I've found works best in my TC to prevent excessive blow-by. FWIW, WW uses their standard primer in all of their shotgun shells including magnum loads.

My TC Omega has a stock recessed breech plug which can shoot either pellets or loose. As far as recessed breech plugs and using pellets that's something I've been wondering about. It seems that maybe recessed plugs will shoot either loose or pellets but flat faced plugs will only ignite pellets ... reliably. I don't know though. It's a WAG on my part.

In case you're wondering I spent a lot of time researching shotgun shell primers on shotgun shell reloading forums. They had all the skinny on primers.

I've always used standard Winchester 209 primers, never had a problem in the Triumph.

I've had problems with remington hang firing with center fire ammo. Try the winchester W209, CCI 209 Magnum, Regular CCI, Federal 209a primers.

Also order a small bag of these. Drop one into the primer pocket and go shoot.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k611/=u1go0j

Are those Remington primers the KleanBore or STS?

The STS might work but the KleanBore are made for Triple7 and are too weak.

Win209s work good if the breach plug design is also good. Otherwise use the Fed209A or CCI209M. Ive heard other CVA owners had good luck with Fiochii 209s in that plug.

I was using KleanBore. The only other kind they had on the shelves were the Winchester 777. I will look for the regular Win209s, CCI, or Fed. Thanks for the advice.

BTW had good range results with Hornady FPB bullets.

yep both of those primers suck for BH209.

Find some cci ,federal 209a or the winchester w209.

Ditto. DO NOT use Kleenbore primers with BH209. That IS your problem.

If you cant find normal or mag USA made 209s, try the Cheddite, Fiochii or NOBELs. Ive read especially good reviews of the Fiochii 209 in the CVA plugs. I know they fit in my 2 older CVAs i had and worked well in a modded plug.

Thanks y'all, I will shop for some appropriate primers.

Even with a few newbie mistakes and wrinkles, shooting a muzzle loader is serious fun!

Not only do you need a magnum primer, you must also keep the primer channel clean. There is a lot of carbon buildup that has to be removed. I also use a rubber o-ring to make sure there is no blowback. Not only will primer blowback make it harder to ignite BH 209, but it can get into the action and gum up and rust up the works. Of course the gumming up and rusting up happen with 777 and Pyrodex too. The Accura has a shim kit available that allows you to get a snug fit with your primers.

Are you o-ringing the primer body itself? Where'd you come up with the o-rings?

you just drop an o ring into the breech plugs primer pocket,
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k611/=u2hjzr

Just be aware that with some primers like the winchester w209 or any other primer that has a over all length close to the w209, closing the action may be tough.

I was thinking on the lines of having the o-ring ride up under the rim of the primer head. Seems having it down in the pocket might leave a little gummy bear residue after a shot or two.

I am late getting back to the thread. I posted and then headed out to church and did not get on the computer when I got home. The small o-ring at the bottom of the primer channel stops any blowback into the action and does not appear to cause heavy fouling at the bottom of the pocket. My theory is hat it forces more of the flame through the flash channel, thereby keeping the primer channel cleaner. I know for sure that it helps with ignition of BH 208.

Only one of my friends has gone away from BH 209 and he did it because he got a misfire on a deer. However he had not been cleaning the carbon from the flash channel. He had a long sight in session and cleaned the barrel but not the flash channel. BTW, I use a torch cleaning tip to keep the flash hole clear.

Why do you need to clean the flash hole. Ive never seen one clog. They seem to grow in ID not shrink.

The flash channel does fill with carbon and a small drill bit turned by hand cleans it quite well. If its really full you may need to use a smaller bit first and then the correct sized bit. Its a 1/8th " for CVA BH209 plugs if i remember correctly.

Westerns BH209 plug comes with o-rings and the bit but if you set the head space correctly, i doubt you will need the o-rings. CVA sells the firing pin bushing shim kits for this purpose.