I do not know one from the other. Our store has only the CVA brand. If I do not buy from them I will order. What I am looking for is a 50cal light weight easy to clean and maintain. But most of all it needs to shoot. I will use loose powder and sabolt bullets. Thanks for all the inputs please put me into a great gun. Only want to buy once.

Look no further if you want a quality, American made gun that really shoots....

http://www.knightrifles.com

Knights are excellent rifles but if you want a CVA, just get the Optima V2 in stainless. Very good value, light weight and fairly easy to clean.

Knight DISCs take a few more minutes to clean but not much IF you get the bare 209 primer conversion kit. Knights new Ultra Lite is top shelf but you will be paying top shelf price. Super light weight, awesome trigger, very high quality stock, Green Mountain barrel with bore coat and multiple ignition options.

Where are you located, Chief?
Some states have different requirements for hunting.

CVA Optima is a steal for the price they sell for. Great triggers on them as well.

Optimas are an abortion. As are ALL CVAs..........

http://cvaguncases.com/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_tragedy.htm

http://randywakeman.com/DangerousMuzzleloadersAHistory.htm

Keep loving that cheap price tag dumba$$. There's a reason why it's so cheap. It's an expensive price to pay for a POS..........

I am in the UP of Michigam so I can use a scope

Go ahead and lie to me. Tell me your Spanish made pot metal gun will do this. Go ahead. It's the internet. Everybody can shoot better than anybody else on the internet.

Laffin'............

Get a Knight, slap the best Leupold you can afford on it, and you will never be sorry. Mine wears a VX2 3-9x40 with heavy duplex.........

My research lead me to the improvement / replacement for the Omega - aka the TC triumph.

Haven't bought one yet but If I do that will be the one.

I only have one inline and it is a T/C Triumph. Shoots like a centerfire with BH209 and sabots. BH209 in my opinion is the only powder for an inline. It is an easy cleanup with Hoppes #9.

wooowoooo thats some shooting!

Your randy wakeman scare tactics are good to print out and wipe my arse with. Go get some real experience and then come back.

Ha! My left pinky toe has more shooting experience than you ever will.

Keep buying junk. I dont think Wakeman caused anything to blow up. Nor did he create the CVA guncase.com site or the lawsuits/injuries that idiots like you choose to ignore in favor of dirt cheap muzzleloaders.

Name me one muzzleloader maker with a worse rep than CVA. Or that has had so many catastrophic failures. I'm waiting.....

I know nada, as in I have zero experience with a TC Triumph, but I'm happy as can be with my TC Omega. I did a lot of research before buying it and have no regrets whatsoever.

IMHO, TC makes very good MLs and I'm sure a Triumph would be a fine rifle.

Whatever you get, don't be fooled into thinking it'll be the only one you'll buy!

The Triumph appears to be a good gun at a good price.

After years of shooting sidelocks, I decided to get an inline and went for the Knight Ultra Lite. It's pricey, but very well made, accurate, and very light and handy. I've got about a grand in it, including the Leupold VX-1 ML scope, and it's worth every penny.

Very nice choice....

Hard to beat the Knight ULite if you can afford it.....Unless you want to build a smokeless rig and dont mind the extra weight. IIRC you cant use smokeless in Michigan during ML seasons but that wont matter at the range or during other hunts. Smokeless rigs still handle subs just fine when needed or required.

Beats the heck out of burning powder thats $30+ for 10oz and still needs to be cleaned.

Just imagine your omega with a speed breech and basically you know the triumph

As to the RW Bla Bla Bla .
Considering the numbers of sales that CVA has had through the years , wouldn�t you think that RW would have pages upon pages of case numbers ?
Chances are your more likely to be driving a car made by a company that�s had far more lawsuits and actual Judicial judgments against them .

When it comes to gun manufactures , I cant think of many who have not had some issue at some time .
The better ones worked through it and are still around . Others are not .
Frankly I wouldn�t get all caught up in it all .
Stick with the parameters your asking about .
IE , 50 cal , easy to maintain , lose powder and sabots and shoots .

I have built guns all my life and can tell you that 90% of the folks out there are not capable of shooting anywhere where near what their gun is capable of . doesn�t mater if its center fire , Modern muzzleloading or Traditional muzzleloader .
For the most part how accurate a gun is , often boils down to the shooter , what they are trying to do and how much time one puts into getting to know the gun .

Loose powder and sabots : this again depends on you . What powder , what sabots . Lots of info and opinions out there on both .

Easy to maintain : what�s your definition of that ?
Case in point . Folks will tell you here that im a traditionalist .Not sure how much I would agree with that but , lets run with it . I shoot a lot . By a lot I mean 20-30lbs of BP a year. Mostly from the same gun which I have had now for 23 years . Its easy to clean , and past having to replace a couple main springs in the lock and a new vent liner once every year or so , its very easy to maintain . In fact so much so that I often read what modern inline folks go through and question the whole sanity of it.

50cal : Now that�s simple as the market is full of them .

So in the end your going to have to define more about what your looking for .
Take stock in those who own a given brand or model and are willing to tell you what they like and dislike about it .

You're right about the ease of use. Other than needing an occasional barrel wipe, a good side-lock is pretty simple and easy to shoot and maintain. I got my Knight because my eyes are starting to go and I really need a scope in the woods. The Knight will use BP just fine, and can even use #11 or musket caps if I get a conversion unit. I purchased an REAL mold for just that reason.

BH209 is a little pricey, about 50 cents a pop for 100gr. equivalent loads, but it works very well and real BP can be hard to find for some folks.

Don't know about the CVAs and don't care. I have yet to see one that appeals to me.

nothing wrong with that . very reason i dont own an inline .
also dont need a scope or see a need for one as long as i can see clear enough to place a shot in Bow range.
all my centerfires rifles have scopes.
if it comes down to it , which every day my body tells me im not 21 anymore . So im sure i will enjoy the hunt , setting under a tree with my 65X55 or more likly just being content to let things past the 10 yard mark , just keep walking on by LOL.

but again to each their own. seems like a very good reason not to own one , 2 thumbs up

One issue that I don't see discussed is rifle fit and especially with a scope mounted. I got to briefly handle a few different MLs on my recent hunting trip and one that I didn't like at all, in regards to stock fit, was a CVA Optima V2. It's a nice rifle but my buddy had a high single piece scope mount that just didn't work for me. I couldn't just throw the rifle up and get a good sight picture without moving my head around and holding my cheek off the stock to get behind the scope. It was very awkward.

Maybe lower mounts would have been better but he said there a problem with the hammer clearing the scope and that's why he used high mounts.

With my Omega I get a decent stock fit/cheek weld provided I use lowest mounts possible. With iron sights it lines up great.

Stock fit is something worth considering when selecting a rifle.

CVA stocks look like they were designed by Helen Keller.........

you seem like an off spring to helen heller

You seem like someone who is paid to promote $hit products and has been banned by multiple forums under multiple screen names for doing so without a sponsorship.

Deny that one..........

I wish I was paid!

2 forums i've asked to be removed from. They wont delete you when you have a large # of posts due to that taking away from the rank position. I do the same thing on my forum as well.

Dude, really? Do I have to go dig up $hit to prove you are lying? Again? We have already BTDT. Then after I proved you a liar, you said you "no longer worked for CVA".

You ASKED to be removed. LMAO. That's rich. You do realize when you punch up your screen name(s) they say "BANNED" right? And that the shameless plugging of foreign made POS muzzleloaders that got you BANNED still all remains for those to see, right?

Your story son, tell it however you want. You may fool some, but not me.

I'm going bowhunting. Enjoy your day Princess.......

thats true, huntingnet, I pmed Calhunter and ask that he remove all my names. Same as on a couple traditions forums as well. When things slow down and just become to same ol crap, its just no longer worth the effort to support the forum.

I see you like to resort to name calling? Thats ok cupcake, I can do the same thing with a smile on my face LOL.

After this post, you are really going to call me out for calling you "Princess"? Pretty fuuked up perspective IMO.

At least I haven't resorted to lying. Something you do on a regular basis.

IIRC, you were BANNED more than once on Hunting.net. Under more than one name. Lie some more.

I gotta run. Maybe you can tell the good folks here another lie about why Michigan Sportsman also banned you

Who cares? Why dont you guys do this over a PM or something

Yeah, fellas, get a room so the rest of us don't have to sift through all the who-struck-john.

Thanks much.

That's another reason I got the Ultra-Lite. It fits and feels like a nice CF, sorta like a .50 cal Montana.

Some guns with irons have stock combs so high that the irons arent usable. It pays to try one in person before you buy, even if you eventually buy online.

no worries guy, 2muchgun acts like this on predatormasters, just someone that needs slapped around for acting like a fool and never has anything positive to add.

Gotta stand up for yourself when someone makes claims against you and such. This is nothing new for me

I gave my input on which muzzy to look into.

Two more juveniles for the ignore list

bb455
has alot of useful advice and experience to contribute on here


dont seem like to me he has some agenda of promoting cva????

from his post he seems to have a bunch of different makes and brands of ml,s

heck i was given a link by someone on here for 3rd generation shooters (name right?)that had a shytload of cva kodiak .45 pro mags for sale and am happy for that link


used to shoot a tc renegade50 for almost 17 years

went to the darkside and sold my soul to the inlines

probably upgrade to a savage smokeless in the future














the other dude, aint never seen him post on ml,s





































it is what it is.....................................

I love my CVA's, I've done a lot of testing/review for companies, most of which I buy the product my self just to see how it works. Guns, bullets, primers, you name it, If I can get a test product from the company for discount or free, so be it LOL. That is something I have never hidden from the folks that ask me directly about it.

My current rifle is a CVA Hawken .58cal that I put together as a kit and did a little modding. I don't see it as helpful advertisement for CVA since they havent made them since 2000-2001.

Testing Frog Lube right now, and yes, I still have the receipt on on paypal info

I've had a couple of Knights, 3 TC inlines, and a bunch of CVA's. I still have a CVA, and the rest are gone. I've had no problems with CVA inlines, and they're very accurate with good triggers.

My .02

Ive had 3 BPI/CVAs, 8 Knights and 3 Savages.

All 3 BPIs are gone. 3 Knights are gone. One Savage is gone and the other 2 were converted to 45. The custom build is too expensive to sell and its just too good to let go.

I made a profit on the 3 Knights and one Savage. Lost my ass on one BPI/CVA and i lost a little on one other. The last one was a junk Frontier made by BPI i pitched in the trash.

The only ones i kinda miss are 2 of the Knights but they were extras i didnt really need anymore. They both went to friends who made offers i could not refuse.

SORRY folks . Time for a Captchee rant ��

I cant speak to the modern inlines But I have owned and sold a lot of CVA rifles through the years , granted most were traditional side locks .IMO if it were not for the likes of CVA , we may very well not have much of anything .

I have owned their doubles , SxS and O&U , Rifles and shotguns . In fact I still own a CVA 20 Gage SXS which is now a SxS flintlock .
I have owned and sold their pistol line . Both traditional side lock and their revolvers . Which past being brass framed and thus suffering the same issues as all brass framed revolvers , shot reasonably well
In fact I still have one of their brass framed 1851 colts . Ironically its not the frame that went south on it . I eventually shot the barrel out .

Im not saying that what CVA imported was of high quality . To say other wise would be a miss statement . But I find it rather ironic that while there has been so much bashing of the Spanish made guns , CVA , Traditions , Jukar �. You hear little to nothing about companies here in the US that had even greater issues and did in fact have an issue with barrel failures .
Case in point Douglas . People climb all over themselves to get a true Douglas barrel . But very few today remember that Douglas had for a time issues with their barrels. Which partially do to legal and liability cost , caused them to close up shop.

Edit : I had to edit out company names

Then you have �A� who just a few years back had an issue where they placed Heli coils in their nipple seats , vs. replacing their plugs . I have heard folks say that�s ok .Company �A� says its safe . While these things maybe true , I have to ask . What exactly is it that your expecting to buy . IMO its one thing to have a repair do to eventual wear or operator error . But quite another to have that repair before the gun is even shot . Would you pay top price for new tiers for you car all of which had patches on them ?
Never mind the tier holds air just fine . But lets over look that one .

Or how about �B� who could not seem to properly fit breech plugs . Which caused the plugs to leak and the threads to corrode . So do to liability issues , they no longer offer Breeched barrels . Oh they will thread them for you but they wont put the breech in . Lets over look that one as well .

Savage , as I recall had an issue as well . Putting opinions on Toby bridges and what he may or may not have done . It still comes down to a failure do to operator error
If we look however at actual manufacturing errors , then how can we not also hold other manufactures , like Savage , Colt , Winchester , S&W and especially Remington accountable . We do realize they all have had many issues through their manufacturing history .

Chuck hawks was also mentioned . While I have the utmost respect for the man IMO aligning himself with RW was a miss step .But , that�s just me .
One of his issues that he talks about is the standard of proof . However there is no mention that the standard is a Government standard of proof and must be marked by law on the barrels .
We have no government enforced standard of proof here in the US .
So should we not question the government who has maintained a 150 year old proof level while at the same time questioning our own ?
Seriously �� we let our gun manufactures tell us that they hold to SAAMI standards . But no one insures they do . But ha we can trust their word right . Would that not be the same as trusting big tobacco , GM ,AIG or for that mater obama to tell us ; its all good , nothing to see here , move along , move along .
Yet that�s exactly what we do

Batch testing barrels ,,,, come on , lets apply that same reasoning to all the manufactures here in the US which do the same thing . For that mater NO testing at all .
I also seem to recall in the same article there was mention of Adesa not being willing to give information on what steel they use concerning muzzle loading barrels .

Im sorry but IMO why should they or would they . Seems to me that would be a lawsuit waiting to happen . All it would take is for someone on the internet to suggest that because they use X quality of steel on a muzzleloader and that same X steel on gun Y . that muzzleloader can withstand the same pressure..

Never mind we here in the US cant seem to agree at least when it comes to muzzleloaders , just what steel standard is acceptable for muzzle loading applications . That includes the makers themselves .
You do realize that the best quality makers like Getz , Rice ,Colerain ,Rayle, Long hammock, Sharon , Green mountain, Thompson center/S&W � just to name a few . For the most part are all different .
that�s not including those who use seamless tubing which is another can of worms all together .

So if we want to point fingers at who maybe getting paid to say what , lets hold that same standard evenly and not pick and chose

My apologies to the OP for what happened to his simple request for advice.

ya , that kinda went to the way side some time ago , didnt it pappy

Interesting discussion, most of it anyway. And I'm not criticising or taking up for anybody. Just interested in what the current situation is. Since I recently purchased a CVA I'm curious about how the new rifles are tested. Just now I forwarded this comment and question to CVA and will post their response:

Recently I've come across a bit of the internet criticism CVA has been subjected to and have read your article "The Truth" in response. However, due to a lack of regulatory standards on muzzle loaders in general I am curious about proofing your guns. Is each individual muzzle loader proof fired or even fired? If not, what precautions do you use such as random testing, etc. I appreciate your time.

Again, in the interest of current information the article I referred to is HERE

Tried a cut and paste but it reads better to just click on the link.

not even TC or GM " Knight" test every barrel LOL

Pedersoli & Co. like all Italian firearms manufacturers, is required by law, to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy.

Today the replica manufacturers have a more difficult task is they want to meet the high standards of CIP (Permanent International Commission) proofing. The CIP lays down common rules and regulations for the proof of weapons and their ammunition in order to ensure the mutual recognition of Proof Marks by its member states. Fourteen countries are CIP Member States.

Each and every blackpowder firearm must pass a pressure proof test in the official CIP proof house of Gardone to receive the modern blackpowder proof marks. The official modern proof loads for .58 caliber rifles are quite close in weight to the 19th century proof loads being 15 g (231,5 grain) of blackpowder and 39 g (601 grain) in bullet weight. But the powder used today is much hotter than the 19th century U.S. Government musket powder (the modern proofing powder is the Swiss No. 2. 3Fg powder which is finer and stronger) and the barrels are not proofed in proofing machines but in the fully assembled (but white finish stage) rifles. After firing the barrel, the breech and the stock are inspected for any kind of cracks and damages. Only the spotless rifles will receive the final proof marks and only these rifles qualify for shipping to the customers all over the World.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/riv...ifle-muskets-in-the-1860s-and-today.html

Seems atleast one company or should i say country does require proof testing of any firearm sold or made in its country.

I wonder if you can buy a CVA there? I see Traditions imports and distributes some Italian made products.

Ive always wondered when you look at the Euro Apex model, they dont list a muzzleloader barrel anywhere on the Spanish website. Why is that? http://www.bergararifles.com/es_ES/rifles/detalle-rifle.php?rifle=Apex

Didnt T/C used to advertise, at least when they made lots of cool sidelocks, that they magnufluxed every barrel?

Wonder if they still do that?

you can buy CVA and traditions muzzleloaders in europe. They actually send them to the proof house to be tested at their 15% over max load levels. I had a german member over at my forum before he passed away and he was ordering both traditions and cva rifles without a problem and they went directly to the proof house.

That "reply" by CVA is a giant load of BS.

"Way back in 1997.......". Yeah okay. My a$$. Check the dates of failures/lawsuits and decide for yourself.

Also, check the dates of mfg. on these models and compare. Here is a list of CVAs known to fail that the company has gone to court over. It would be a MUCH shorter list if we listed the CVAs that did not fail. Sad but true:

Mountain Stalker
Pro Hunter
Optima Pro
Optima
Staghorn
Buckmaster
Apollo
Wolf
Mag Hunter
Eclipse
Bobcat
Silver Trophy Hunter
Kodiak
Kodiak Magnum
Firebolt
Gray Wolf
New Frontier

It just seems really odd that the USA website has a APEX ml barrel listed and the Europe website does not.

2muchgun, it doesnt matter whats listed. One reason cva killed the traditional line was they tired of people not cleaning their guns and the nipples would rot out and blow out. I actually emailed about a cva blazer and the first thing they wanted me to do want check the nipple threads for rust/pitted threads. If there was any, they wanted me to send it in for replacement of a new gun.

You have companies like GM that has 2 recalls now from my understanding, for installing the WRONG nipples into their barrels.

I have to wonder how many of the CVA failures were owner error?

I also wonder about other companies that might have the same failures that we don't hear about?

Research it. Please do tell.

I already have.

CVA is in a league of their own....

I have, but you won't find something that's hidden from the public.

Randy has made sure everybody knows about CVA, so it's all we find.

most gun blow ups are in fact user error. When you load 300 grains of T7 and it blows up, its YOUR fault. I know more facts about some of these cases than most of you here due to some folks I know through the system. Smokeless powder, double loads or short started projectiles are the main faults in muzzle loader failures.

I agree, and it's what makes me think all companies have this problem.

Got an answer back. No great detail. Do any other mfgs test every muzzleloader? Or is random selection the standard?

"You are perfectly safe in using your rifle. Always be sure that you are using the correct powder and the correct amount of powder. I would recommend using 100 grains of WhiteHots powder and a 295 grain Powerbelt hollow point. This has been a great combination to start with for many years. each individual gun is not test fired as this would require a complete cleaning of every rifle. Randomly picked rifles are however tested. Good luck this fall. have a wonderful day."

TC nor Knight test every barrel they make. I forget who it was, either bridges or wakeman actually responded to knight barrels and said "typically" they are magnafluxed. However, the word typically isnt an in between of Yes and No in my opinion.

In the old days, proof firing IMO was the standard due to the super soft butter steel they used in those days. Its not really needed with todays quality steels gun makers use today.

The Norm is batch testing .
IE a barrel or two will get chosen randomly to go under Proof . In theory as long as the same material is being used and there is a record of tolerances staying within speck , there would be little reason for the rest of the barrels to fall from proof .
As I said before some do no testing at all . Don Getz has made open statements as to what steel they use and that while they originally did test barrels early on , they have not tested barrels for years .
Colerain no longer breeches their barrels .. So ?
Im not sure what LC rice does . Both he and Getz breech and index their barrels to insure the plugs are fitted proper .
GM can say what ever they like . Through the years I have provided many GM barrels on my rifles . I don�t recall any that I didn�t have to re fit the plug .

In Europe, the ability to provide a proof stamp is contingent on those barrels passing proof . The company doesn�t control this . The proof house does in that they randomly select the barrels . If the barrel fails the government then yanks the companies ability to use the government authorized proof stamp . Which can mean a lose of export ability , fines and possible prosecution

As to what other country proofs every gun . Ironically India requires it . Every Firearm �to include muzzleloaders � manufactured be it by a company or individual , must be sent in to be proofed by the IOB . Along with the gun , there must be complete records on the manufacture of every part .
Frankly I was very surprised at the level of Inspection their government requires , considering the quality of what�s being imported ..

In the end though we all IMO should realize that a gun with a proof stamp on it , only means that it withstood proof at time of manufacture . It does not mean its still in proof or that it will stay in proof for ever .
Same goes for testing a barrel with a heavy charge , which by the way is only part of the proofing process . But just because that barrel held that high charge once . Does not mean it will hold that charge again

In the early '80's, I got a CVA .50 Hawkens. Worst POS gun I
ever owned. God/conscience would not allow me to sell it to
someone who might have gotten themselves severely hurt.

That being said, I know of several individuals who have gotten
CVA CF rifles in .45-70 and converted them to smokeless muzzle
loaders. They don't attempt to load as stout as those of us
with our Rem 700ml conversions or Savage 10MLII's, but still
end up with over 300yd capable rifles. I'm very tempted to
believe CVA has long seen the light that it is in their best
interests to make quality firearms. The Bergara barrels they
now use had their inspiration from Shilen and have become
very accurate, dependable and safe. The article which is still
on Chuck Hawk's site comes from relatively old information and
the author is known as a "legend in his own mind".