http://www.knightrifles.com

I'm in the market for a new muzzleloader, and I don't like plastic TC stuff. I can't stand break open's either. I really like my old disc extreme, it's just getting some age on it.

Anybody bought one of Knights new rifles since they got back in the game?

Bought a ultralite last year, combined with No Excuses bullets and Tripple 7 powder it very accurate. Without scope I can keep a two inch group @100 yards. Very well built, B&C stock, adjustable trigger, easy to clean. Only complaint I had was the rear sight mounted on the barrel, short radius. Replaced with a NECG peep that mounts on the rear bridge of the action.

I also bought an Ultra-Lite, and it's a really nice rifle. My sons have whacked 3 deer so far with it, including a real whopper, with 300gr. Hornady XTPs (not the Mag version) in Harvester Crush-Rib sabots over 80gr. by volume of BH209 and standard Winchester .209s. Plenty of power for deer in the woods without a lot of recoil. Get the Western model if you need or want iron sights. Sportsmans Guide has a good price and lets you pay in 4 payments. It may, however, take you a while to get it as they are built to order and ship directly from Knight.

The less expensive Knights probably shoot just as well, but are heavier.

If you get one and scope it, buy the Talleys, not the Knight mounts.

Really impressed with my Ultra-Lite, would highly recommend.

I handled a youth model this week that I would have bought had I got there a bit sooner. It was marked for close out at Academy and priced at $125. A friend of mine who works the gun counter saw the markdown and bought it. I know a young lady in need of a compact muzzleloader- oh well. The Knights are great shooters and with 209 ignition they are really reliable and much easier to clean up than my old Wolverine.

Yeah I've got an older wolverine and a disc extreme. I love them both. To me, there is no comparison between the quality of a knight and the other couple brands that seem to get all the attention. I think I'll buy one just to support the company.

The new Knights are still a quality rifle.

I'm a big fan and will hunt with a Knight Disc Extreme here in a couple of weeks.

You could always look around for new old stock if you're not comfortable with the new models.

No, I think I am. From what I can tell, it's the same design with just a little bit of change to the breech area maybe? Really just wanted to make sure the quality was still there.

Tagged. Also interested in a new in-line.

I have about 5 or 6 Knight muzzle-loaders, mostly older stock Elites and Extremes, one newer Mountaineer. It's the only brand I'd hunt with, sold my last non-Knight a few years ago.

I've been hunting with a 45 cal Elite the last few years. One thing that's nice with the older Elites and Extremes is just about all the breech plugs, and bolt components are interchangeable. The new ones are still excellent quality, the best triggers too.

Bought a Ultra Light Off Here About Month Ago. It Has Became My Favorite M.L..Nice Trigger,With Good Stock, And Flat Out Shoots. Mine With 80Grs Of 209 Blackhorn And 250Grs Barnes will Cut Holes At 100Yds.

Let me know if you want to sell or trade it...

Only complaint I've heard with the new Knights is the breech plug needs to be replaces about ever 250 shots or so...

I have 2 Knights and won't use any other brand. I just tuned a Knight trigger down to about 20 ozs. for a fiend. Have another new Knight trigger here to play with.

If I ever buy another ML, it will be an Ultra Light....

Anyone know the brand and twist rate on the barrel?

dont like break actions? why the heck not? Beats 5" of extra length and weight for something that just holds a bolt that doesnt even move backward.

Don't know where you get your figures, the Knight is 2.75" longer and 3/4 pound lighter than a comparable CVA Optima.

Optima has a 26" barrel vs knights 24" barrel on the UL.

Now if you want to talk light, Traditions pursuit ultraght at 5.15lbs.

My hawken weighs close to 9 but hey, its got a purdy long 32" barrel on it but shes oh so sweet and will handle heavier loads a lot better than today's light weight muzzleloader that just gives the shooter a nice flinch.

Yes that was taken into account. Do the math. Knight UL 41.75" OAL with a 24" BBL & 6 lbs. optima 41" OAL with a 26" BBL & 6.65lbs.

pursuit UL is still lighter than either rifle you are comparing though.

Knight UL is 6lbs. CVA Wolf is 6 1/4lbs. Wolf cost $175, and shoots MOA. Knight shoots MOA, but cost how much? Bang for the buck?

Knight kills game dead.

Wolf kills game dead.

And my Pursuit XLT is really accurate too. It shoots as well as my old Knight Wolverine, TC Omega, and H&R Sidekick and is so easy to carry. I call it my "Geezer gun" since I do not enjoy carrying a heavy gun through the woods at my age.

Lame.

Comparing a Knight Ultra Lite to a CVA Wolf is VERY lame......

Yeah, they are not even in the same ball park. Minor league vs pro ball comes to mind. It doesn't mean they wont shoot but how well will it hold up in the long haul?

The Wolf in SS is a good entry level rifle for those that just want to extend the season for the lowest price. If you watch for sales though you can find the Optima V2 in SS for just a little bit more.

The Knight UL is for those that want a rifle that will last a lifetime and proudly made in the USA.

That last sentence says it all IMO......

never had a lick of trouble out of my Wolf. Super nice trigger, light weight and accurate as sin. Easy to clean would be an under estimate.

Thin light weight barrels often heat up fast and start acting like a slinky.

Nobody buys a Knight for a lifetime. They just keep it until a newer model comes out. It's not like you're going to pass it down like a collectors gun.

Of course the Wolf isn't in the same price class as the UL Knight, but it is in the same performance class. That's all that matters to a lot of hunters.

He is obviously someone that thinks excess maintenance is a part of owning a muzzleloader. Turnoff number 1 on the knight is they still have not figured out the priming system. It can never touch a Quick release on a CVA in its wildest dreams. American made great but they have gone out of business multiple times.

+1

Barhunters right.. Its an inline, no inline will ever be bought and kept for life simply because each year, theres something new and better. Like the car market today, or better.... Projectiles.

Regardless, when I have that once in a lifetime game sitting in my sights, the last thing I want to worry about is a cheap POS gun hoping will hit the mark.....Just sayin.

You worry too much.

Keep telling yourself that. This Knight rifle has been killing $hit since before you were born.

Tonights buck.....

I bought the Knight after checking one out at an LGS. The metalwork is equal to or better than most centerfires; no MIM, no cast. The stock is a nice Kevlar model, not Tupperware, and the lines are simple and classic. If you don't notice the size of the hole in the barrel, it resembles a high-end synthetic-stocked rimfire.

I'm going to pick up an extra breech plug or two, maybe a cap ignition, and then I'll be good to go for life.

If I buy another ML, it'll be a good traditional gun, or a handgun.

What brand are you referring to as a POS?

The current bolt-action Knights seats and extracts the primer just like a little cartridge. Cycling the bolt also cocks the striker. With a properly fitting primer, it seals very well and the breech stays clean. It's a little early to say, but my impression is that the number of shots that can be fired between cleanings, using BH209, will be determined by how much plastic gets left in the bore from the sabots. With full caliber conicals, I think I may be able to shoot as much as I want between cleanings.

The Ultra-Lite weighs 6 lbs bare. Full up, with scope and sling, I think it's still under 7. Everyone that's handled it has commented on how light, handy, and well balanced it is.

The 1-28" .50 has become the .30/06 of MLs. They're available in about any configuration, even traditional. Properly loaded, it'll do anything you need.

Kinda funny how MK85s, Elites and Super DISCs are still highly desirable and sell fast. Old inline CVAs......not so much. Many are probably tomato stakes now. That is a good place for extruded barrels.

Ive got DISC based rifles i bought over 10 years ago. Very few rifles would be an upgrade from an Elite or Super DISC. The Knight UL would be one of those few. Its too bad they dont offer one in a fast twist 45cal

Guns like the CVAs fill a need, as do the really inexpensive guns. Ballisticaly, they're all the same. I tend to buy stuff that I think is nice, interesting, and well made, but other folks just want to hunt. Not much sense in someone like that dropping a grand on something they will only use a few days a year.

I've long liked the idea of a fast .45, but a .50 makes more sense for me as I can shoot .40, .452, and .458s in sabots and also full caliber .50s. The .45s thAt appeal the most to me are the Whitworths and Pedersoli .45 target and Mortimer rifles. The .45 percussion Sharps are also interesting, but not legal here for ML season. Maybe someday...

I don't believe plastic sabot fouling is an issue in MLs. I've never ran into it. Typically I shoot about 20 loads in a range session and haven't any difficulties with 777 or BH209. When I used to shoot 777 I'd swab between rounds with a water wet patch to eliminate powder fouling but no solvents to remove plastic fouling. With BH209 I've shot 17 loads (no sawbbing) and the last groups of day were the most accurate.

You can shoots hundreds of rounds through a shotgun and not run into issues with plastic fouling. Granted, a shotgun is a smoothbore vs rifled but still. The only time I've ever ran into issues with plastic fouling was in the chamber of an A-5 that had thousands of shells fired through it. It started "jamming" and thoroughly cleaning the chamber with steel wool cured it.

Cleaning the bore of ML after a range session with a solvent that dissolves plastic fouling (like Birchwood Casey Bore Srcubber) should prevent any issues.

And in a fast twist 45 i can shoot similar weight conicals with a much higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient. I can also shoot any 45cal a 50cal can shoot but without a sabot. The only thing i can not shoot in a 45cal is a 50cal bullet and the vast majority of those have a terrible BC.

When i want to shoot a 50cal bullet i load them up in a 54x50 sabot. The Rem700ML in 54cal with a hunter bolt kit is a beast. Resizing 50cals for sabotless have far less options than the 45cals.

Extruded barrels? Please explain

hahahahaha!! extruded barrels, now hes on the wakeman bandwagon!!

Any credit you had just went down the wakeman toilet tunnel.

let the little ones grow up dude!

My current choice for a .50 cal conical is the Hornady FPB, which has a BC of .285, which ain't bad.

Actually, BC isn't an issue for me as I still regard MLs as short-range propositions. I know that they can reach out there a bit, but it's not what I'm looking to do.

I'm not being critical of .45s at all. If the gun I wanted had been available in .45, it would have been considered, but again for my use, the .50 was a better choice.

The plastic does seem to build up to make loading a little more difficult, factory UBC treatment and all. Only time will tell if the FPB guilding metal jacket will foul at all.

The people I know that use saboted shotgun slugs tell me that plastic build-up is a problem for them, with accuracy falling off after relatively few rounds. It's really only a factor at the range unless you get in a running gunfight with your deer.

The CVA barrels from that time period were extruded steel. New CVA barrels are not. Kinda funny they didnt even offer a good 416 SS or chromoly until when??????? Roughly 2008 was it when Bergara got involved?

How long has Knight been using quality 416 and 4140 barrels? How about nearly 30 years. Lothar, Wiseman, McMillan and GM just to name a few.


I dont see anyone running out today saying,"Gee i want a extruded barrel instead of a good 416, 4140 or 416R barrel"....I wonder why?

When I used to shoot 777 I got my best accuracy between rounds 3 and 13. After that accuracy would start to fall off. No problems with BH209 up to 17 rounds though (the most I've shot). I do notice slightly increased loading effort until about round 5 then it stays the same.

I can't say for sure if the loading effort is increased by plastic or powder fouling. If it was plastic then it should get harder to load with each shot but it doesn't seem to do that.

One thing worth noting is I'm shooting a TC Omega with very shallow rifling, a polished bore, and UBC.

I'm not disagreeing with you Pappy it's just I don't think I'm running into plastic fouling issues with my ML and the load/sabot that I've been using.

A different rifle (or shotgun), non-polished bore, no UBC, different sabot/projectile, and I'm sure the results would vary.

I'm still an inline newbie, so all I THINK I know is based on the maybe 40 rounds I've put through my rifle so far. If I ever get it back from my sons, I'll be able to continue my education.

They tell me it really puts 'em down, which is all I need to know for now.

When bragging of kills, it is best to compare the same species to same. Otherwise, any potential validity is lost.

I guess if I posted an elk now, that would count as bigger?

LMAO.

Show me your biggest whitetail kill with a pic of your muzzleloader. Then I will show you mine. And you will get laughed at.

Of course, yours probably involves a paycheck and a fence.........

So these guns are no longer sold and you are claiming the new ones have extruded barrels? Sounds like Randy Wakeman had a real agenda with the old CVA company.

If anybody here really cares, read what White Laboratories has to say concerning CVA. They are THE most widely respected ballistics/tesing lab in America. Period. They don't lie, just state facts. No opinions.

CVA is the worst POS you can buy. And the company owned by the worst POS people you can buy from. They don't care about quality or safety, only dollars...

It'll put 'em down.

Wrong as usual.

CVA brought Winchester Muzzleloading into the market in 2003 i believe. I should remember that as my ex girl friend bought me a Winchester X150.

i've never hunted high fence 2muchgun, just public land and some private when we get lucky.

I see reading comprehension is not your strongest quality. Please quote me where is said new CVAs use extruded.

You cant can you. Didnt think so.

you asked when they started using SS barrels, you got my answer.

Quote

I dont see anyone running out today saying,"Gee i want a extruded barrel instead of a good 416, 4140 or 416R barrel"....I wonder why?
[/quote]




[quote]I see reading comprehension is not your strongest quality. Please quote me where is said new CVAs use extruded.

You cant can you. Didnt think so.

Did you read the above quote? You were trying to slam CVA correct? Cut it with the insults not needed, if you can't discuss something intelligently don't discuss it.

Once again here is CVA Boy disrupting yet another thread plugging his cheap assed foreign made POS muzzleloaders. NOTHING NEW.

How is it that some here see this so clearly, yet others are completely oblivious to the writing on the wall?

Some need to get a clue......

Green Mountain Barrels are still making them. They are using 1-28" twist rate. Also they started testing with Dyna Tek coatings in August 2008, they started actually coating all barrels inside and out in 2011 according to Blue Book.


"In my opinion" I dislike the way Traditions feel with their Tupperware stocks, even dislike my CVA Elk Hunter Pro with a chromoly button pulled Bergara barrel. Not to say it doesn't hit the mark at the range but the thing rattles in my hands with a stiff charge. My Knight handles the same charges like a solid piece of 416 SS stress relieved steal should. So in my opinion if I'm heading out into the wilderness on a hunt that is costing me out the wazoo then I'm taking the gun I know can get-r-done.

Oh look. Here he is plugging YET AGAIN.

Anybody else see a pattern here?

Just because he plugs CVA doesn't mean what he's saying is wrong.

Nothing at all wrong with new CVA's. I've had more problems with Knight's and TC's.

Let me ask you again

Where did i say NEW CVAs used extruded steel barrels?

Try reading my posts again. I even stated NEW ones ARE NOT.

The old barrels were extruded steel and better off used as a tomato stake. Some old Douglas ML barrels were junk too.

Sure i slammed CVA for selling junk for YEARS and making cheap copies. The Kodiak was a cheap copy of the T/C Omega. CVA made millions selling junk for years and ripping off other peoples idea and patents.

Now they make a far better product with the profits they made from the years before. Its too bad they sent out thousands of Accura MRs with a finish that pealed and chipped in the box before finally going to nitride.

My point is, CVA is relatively new to the high quality end of the spectrum when compared to Knight or Green Mountain barrels. Buying some equipment from Shilen and getting his endorsement will not make them a tier 1 company in just a few years.

They have a long way to go and to catch up in terms of quality control. The new Knight has some issues too and some of their older models that where made to compete with imports were plain junk. Those models are long gone. Most of the tried and true models that made Knight famous are still going strong.

Ive got Knights that are over 12 years old and shoot as good or better than new. I dont think anyone really wants a old CVA from a similar time that has an extruded barrel vs their NEW rifles...Maybe that is whey they quit making them...huh

I called CVA once about powder recommendations. They allow 3 pellets but not 3FG. The tech could not tell me why. He did tell me using ANY 3FG would void the warranty. Well anyone with half a brain can figure out 3 T7 pellets makes more pressure than 100gr of 3FG T7.

My talks with a tech at Knight named Sam were far less evasive. He knew his products well. They have no such powder restriction and neither does Hodgdon. Ive found techs at Green Mountain to also be very helpful. I cant even get Bergara to answer a simple email regarding a European model question. Those Euro Apex laminate stocks look nice but they are not offered here.

The coating they used was pretty bad. However, they tried to make it good. You can trade in your chipped gun for a new Nitride gun now.

Yep and if they offered an Accura MR in 45cal, i would probably give it a try even although im not a big fan of break actions. One thing ive seen though on the CVA 45s is the bore varies way too much for my tastes. If they were mostly between .450 and .452 i would not really care.

Ive seen a Accura 45 with a .452+ and heard of more than one Apex 45 that was around .454. Savage had the same issue but there are far more sabot choices for 50cals. Lots of Savages also had pretty rough bores. Thats why i got a new barrel for mine. Its exactly as advertised and smooth as glass the entire length.

They may be honed but i see no evidence a new CVA Bergara barrel is air gauged or even stress relieved. The tech i spoke with could not tell me the answer either. He could only tell me the ones with Bergara on the barrel go through an additional honing process.

GM barrels are air gauged and stress relieved. They have been for a very long time. Ive found a few over sized but at least they were the same or super close the entire length. Its pretty hard to completely get around that with button rifling. Cut rifling can be far more precise and only a few GM ML barrels were cut rifled.

I'd like a .45 too, but in my case I could only use it on deer. It's illegal for elk in my state.

I'll never say anything bad about GM. They make a fine barrel, and it's one of the things I like about Knights. I've only had one GM barrel, and it was a drop in for a Renegade. It really shot good.

Make it easy, go with the biggest caliber and you wont have anything to complain about

GMs biggest mistake was discontinuing IBS, Sharpshooter and LRH barrels. They were a damn good barrel for the money. The LRH or Sharpshooter barrels were cut rifling too just like the BPCR barrels.

A few of the Knights used a GM cut rifle barrel such as the 45cal 1-18 DISC Target model. Some early 52cals may also been cut rifling and very early Master Hunters. One of the odd ball MKs in 45cal may also have been cut.

I prefer Douglas for my inlines but they are not the best. Ive just had great luck with them for a button rifle barrel. Very uniform and not overly picky about loads.

No such thing as the best IMO. Something always comes along to be a little better and its then the BEST even though its just a tad bit better.

Well not to throw a wrench into it but when I got my KP1 GM 50 cal barrel brand new from Knight it was still packed with metal and thickened oil residue. Took me a while to clean it up but she came clean. It does have just a slight tight spot at the base but the rest of the barrel is sized the same. I would dare to assume that it was a cut rifling barrel for this to happen. Left a message with krwarranty about it today.

I thought most larger barrels from GM were mainly cut rifling?

thats why i am so anal when it comes to new guns. I preach so much about CLEANING them out properly. I know a ton of guys that just swab the bore and think its good to go. They dont bother to think about the shavings inside the action, breech plug theads and the nasty oils they use to keep rust away while its in storage.

I really dont know much about the KP1 other than a new version is supposed to be released.

Im fairly sure the vast majority of Knight barrels were button rifled. Cut rifling is usually more expensive and sometimes reserved for odd or custom twist rates. Each caliber and twist requires its own button to be made.

For example, if i wanted a 1-24 twist 45 from Pacnor they would charge me for the button too. Thats like an extra $200. If i order one from Brux its the same price because its single point cut and there is no custom button to buy.

You can choose your twist
http://bruxbarrels.com/downloads/orderform.pdf

You can choose from the twists they offer 450x458 8 groove 10" 14" 15" 18" 20" 22" 26"
http://pac-nor.com/barrels/

Well here's a kicker. Talked to Knight and they said they have never had an issue like what I explained. Kind of a moronic response considering they are only selling bits and parts of stock they weren't supposed to be selling according to the paten. They gave me the number to the previous owner/correspondent in regard to my particular issue with the barrel, well what does that matter if he isn't the owner or the company that sold it to me?????....Talk about passing the buck right there. And to boot they don't have another replacement!

So then I talked to Branch Meanley, said he'll fix my trigger of my KP1 after I send it to him courtesy of krwarranty, it's the original side decock style and it's not setting some primers off. But as for my KP1 50 cal barrel he said that is a Knight issue, Knight are the ones that sold me the barrel. Also said something about there actually being different receivers and I know for a fact Knight didn't check into that when I purchased the barrel new.


So bottom line, Knight is still having customer service issues and they still are unaware of the products they are selling. Now maybe they still have some techs that can give some solid info, but the new higher ups.....well good luck. For me, well I'm stuck using sabots and Knight doesn't care because they disowned the KP1.

Sam at Knight is a good guy, but a PITA to deal with. He is unorganized, forgetful, and hard to get a hold of. I think he regularly has too much on his plate......

Your "particular issue with the barrel", being that it was dirty or the tight spot? How are you stuck with using sabots? Maybe I'm missing something you posted elsewhere?

As long as its snug where the projectiles seats, I'd stick with it. It could end up being worse with a replacement.

Since the new ownership, some more recent reports of Knights CS have been appalling. Sam in Iowa was great before. Not sure if he moved down to the new headquarters or what. I think there are two Sams at Knight now. One is not a smith as far as i know.

I would call Gordy Edwards and nicely voice your opinion to him. He can get things done when other efforts have failed.

I was very happy with the service I got when I ordered my rifle, especially considering that I ordered it through the Sportsman's Guide for about $150 under list price. The CS lady tracked my order and made sure I got just what I wanted.

They do, apparently, move folks around a bit during the slow season to save money.

The only gripe I have is that their website is a pain to use.

I'd gripe about their shipping charges too. They wanted to charge me $15 to ship one nipple, and $18 for two nipples. The $15 was bad enough, but does anybody think it cost more to ship two nipples over just one?

Shipping charges are completely outrageous! However the last thing I bought from them about 2 months ago only charged me like $6 so they might have come up with a solution.....I say "might".

My particular issue with the barrel is it was packed with crap, never cleaned on the inside by GM or by Knight. I have an idea, lets send out a filthy $220 barrel???? The second issue is the tight spot at the base of the barrel where it seats. Yea it's only about .001 or .002 tighter but think about it this way, if I load a conical bullet at 5 degrees and it warms to 50 the bullet will most likely fall out of the barrel, let alone come off the charge = not good. When talking to Branch he told me the barrel is not repairable, Knight should refund or replace, Knight won't however they are the one that sold it to me.

Knight is playing the blame game over customer service on this, and other orders I've placed during the last 2 years have been a joke. Once we traded 3 times for them to get it right. Now the rifles are good quality, but the CS is like fecal material from a menstruating hog.

Could it be worse, well yea, but it still is an issue....

I hate a loose spot where the bullet seats. CVA and a TC I had has that problem too. Drives me nuts!

I've owned 3 Accuras (two MR's), 2 Optima's, and two Wolf's. Surprisingly the barrels in the two wolf's were perfectly straight. Go figure.

Kinda like when you buy a VegeWhatzit on tv and they promise free blades for life; just pay shipping and handling that are more than the VegeWhatzit cost in the first place.

Like

I don't like break actions because they feel like cheap peices of crap to me. If you like them, I'm happy for you. The next time I get ready to decide if I like something or not, I'll make sure I seek y'all's approval first.

does a break action shotgun seem cheap to you as well?

The ones with a single barrel do...mostly. My favorite old Winchester 101 20 gauge though i loved to death. It was actually a Ted Willaims shotgun.

no, not really.

but rifles do. but i appreciate your concern. i've had 3 different encore's and looked at the CVA's. they just don't appeal to me.

I used to do trap shooting for a living, and used a Perazzi single barrel break open shotgun. There was nothing cheap about that gun in price, or workmanship.

http://www.perazzi.com/site/en/competizione/Trap%20americano%20monocanna

Impeccable tastes

Nothing wrong with break actions at all. It's just that a lot of the break action MLs are really oogly, for no reason other than their designers have bad taste. Encores are oogly largely because the action was designed to function as a pistol. They could come up with an adapter similar to the EABCO system (still ugly but permits the use of a decent looking stock), but probably won't because oogly or not, they sell.

Take a look at the Luxus rifles or the Blasers. Wonderful break actions and not only not oogly, but some of the best looking rifles to be found.

I'll stick with my KP1.

I hope they get off their butts and get the KPX in production. Nothing turns off potential customers like vaporware.