I want to know more about them. Who offers them? I'm interested in knowing.

Most smokeless muzzleloaders are custom/semi custom since Savage discontinued their 10ML. You'd find out more by visiting a forum dedicated to smokeless muzzleloading. There are several members there that build and covert rifles to smokeless.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/board/23/savage-smokeless-muzzleloading

Doug's is a good site. Hank's is another. The two are at odds because of agenda but both have good info. I make custom long range bullets for these guns. Shoot me a PM with your questions and I'll point you to the builder, or two, I think is right for you.

If you are at all handy, it is very possible to build one
yourself off several different actions. It really isn't rocket
science. I've built three very accurate SML's, and had never
done much more than bedding a stock prior to that. If you
join Doug's, read a lot, ask a lot of questions (no such thing
as a dumb question there), you could be up and running by
next year.

You can also convert a 45/70 break action like a CVA Apex H&R or Encore to a 45 smokeless if your budget is tight.

So how much should a guy expect to have dumped into one of these muzzleloaders?

The NEF/CVA conversions are the cheapest but I'm not sure on coast as I don't own one, I built my 700ML for about $1300, and my Pierce action gun cost around $2600.

Apex can be found for about $500. Check with Carlos at Ed's gun shop in Vass NC for a good price on the Apex.

Plug and conversion labor start at around $150. Large rifle mag primer conversion and plug was around $275 with 25 primer modules.

Im not up on Encore frame pricing but the Bergara 45/70 barrel for Encores is around $200-220 H&Rs have become nearly impossible to find.

Soooooo .... is a fella gaining a lot more accuracy and able to shoot much longer distances by going the smokeless route compared to simply using a top-shelf black powder like say a T/C ProHunter FX or something similar???

I'm just curious about the comparison between smokeless and black powder more or less

I dont know of a smoker that will shoot a 200gr SST at 2600fps+. The best i ever managed with BH209 was around 2500fps. It shot like crap and it had more recoil.

There are lots of good shooting smokers but not many will come close to the fps of a smokeless build.

Luke at Arrowhead Sporting Goods LLC helped me build mine. I'm still waiting to get the metal painted. The components are a Remington 700 ML, Pac-Nor barrel, McMillan stock, Timney trigger, Accupoint TR22 w/ Kenton dial. It shoots sub half inch groups at 2600 fps using 58 grains of H4198 pushing a 200 grain SST. Recoil is mild.

What kind of ramrod are you going to use?

Luke sells a really nice 3 piece w/ spin jag. It folds into a sheath I carry in my possibles pack. Very slick!

I can attest to the info at Dougsmessageboard after I discovered that site I built a smokeless on a Savage ML action and have killed deer at over 250 yards.

I get great precision, shoot 2400fps to 3000fps depending on load I'm using, they shoot like centerfires, and I don't clean them:

Pierce gun and my hand swage bullet at 100yds


My 700ML at 100yds and 300yds



NULA at 100yds and 300yds (I probably shouldn't have sold it)

These guns are incredible. The range, accuracy and versatility.

I shoot a CVA Apex 45-70 conversion, its very accurate. It's so nice not having to worry about cleaning it like you would a regular muzzleloader!

Now that I got this Brux barrel sorted out and feeling good about it I decided to drop test the BOMBs again. After verifying the Bushnell LRHS on a tall target test last week I swapped it over to the SML for torture testing. Friday was 72°F and breezy, great day for shooting.

I had 4 of the Bad Bull version of the 275 Parker BE so I used them to get the new optic zeroed. First round was a half mil low and half mil left. I made a correction and shot the next three (far left). I loaded up and shot three of the 316gn BOMB to establish POI (middle), then shot a 300gn BOMB to establish off-set if any (right):


The 316gn bullet was .5 MOA low and the 300gn bullet was 1.5 low. At 302yds I shot 3 of each, measued drop, subtracted off-set, and calculated come-ups in MOA. I was on track for two, sub-half minute groups but missed a wind call (I get a lot of swirl on the last 1/3 of the range):


316gn bullets were cruising at 2622fps and 300gn bullets at 2685fps. It was really sunny and breezy today and I got some bigger ES numbers than I usually get so I am going to try this again later in the week toward dark and stretch it out to 500yds if nobody in on the range. I still need to shoot them further but I'm running a G1 BC in the .4s and was off by .1MoA on drop at 300yds

Today was overcast so I hit the range again to re-chrono those loads since I got garbage readings the other day:

FF bullets were shooting 2687fps with an SD of 16fps
SF bullets were shooting 2655fps with an SD of 9fps

The SF bullets shoot slower but have lower deviations (the ES for the SF bullet was the same as the SD for the FF bullet) but I would assume that has largely to do with my sizing and seating consistency. The SF also shoot a little bigger groups (.625 MoA compared to .3-4 MoA for FF) but who really cares.

Did anyone get me a LabRadar for X-mas?

Nice shooting!

If anyone knows of a nice .45cal smokeless that is up for sale, please pm me and let me know ... I'd love to venture into this with a rig all setup and ready to go. Or if you know of some contacts of where I can have one thrown together, I'd appreciate it.

This dealer has a dozen or so Savage 10Ml-IIs left NIB and sold several stainless this fall/winter also. Still cheaper than a custom smokepole. Buy it and fire it!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=532599325

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=529095375

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=529073749

Savage99F358

No way I'd pay that much for a Savage MLII, especially from a gouger.

I looked back 90 days on Gunbroker and looks like quite a few buyers didn't mind the price at all.

Savage99F358

Not really. You could build one on a Savage center fire action for that kinda cash or less if you dont mind waiting for a new ultra light arms.

Over $1900 for a blued factory MLII is plain stupid when a NULA is $1800.

Really, where are you seeing this kind of price for a NULA??

http://www.newultralight.com/

I paid a 1000 for mine used. Stainless/camo stock. included 200.00 worth of powder, sabot's, bullets, extra breech plug/vent liners. Had about 40 rounds through it.

i just bolted a Boyds stock on it. That was 200.00.

There was a blue one in the ky armslist for 500.00 just 2 weeks ago. Almost bought it myself for a second.

Most of the used stainless are going for about 1000.00 to 1200.00.

RB, for the price range you are wanting to be in, you'd be looking more toward a break open type gun. Plenty accurate but cant shoot the stiffer powder charges like you can with a bolt gun. Range is more limited.

Call NULA. Talk to Melvin. The site was updated and the M209 is not listed but he still sells them. Before the site updated they were the same price as the model 20 rimfire single shot.

I paid $1500 for my NULA 2 years ago

I would like to know why there would be any difference between a bolt or a break action as far pressure.

My thoughts would be the only rear thrust would be on the bolt or action face on a break action would be primer, nothing else can move to create rear thrust. Not like a centerfire cartridge that the cartridge has rear thrust and can move, because it is containing rear pressure against the bolt lugs or action face and hinge pin on a break action.

I believe barrel thickness and shank length in the chamber area is the biggest factor. Custom barrels handle higher pressure.

My concern with break actions is barrel shank length, diameter, and the presence of scope base holes drilled into that area. The idea of thrust is not as big a concern to me because the vent liner/bushing works as a pressure snubber and the PFC can be opened to reduce thrust.