Hadn't been to visit since the year they did all the cow shooting.

Just got back. I"m no expert, but I can say this, a field that was supposed to have 30 moose or whatever in it in 2007 prior to the hunt, had none in 2007 and none now in 2009.

And in 2007 everywhere I went within about 60 miles of DJ, we'd see at least 2-3 if not more mature moose. This trip now in 2009, had many less tracks, much less sign, many less cows, even in my friends yard we only saw a cow one time.

Again I'm no expert but it looks like the cow moose killing sure hurt the population a LOT in the areas I'd seen em before.

As an adjunct we were out quite a lot looking in all kinds of weather too.

Anyone care to add their thoughts?

Jeff

I've hunted the DJ area since 1993 and have seen more moose dow that way than I care to count. I have had several friends dow there the last few weeks hunting caribou and sheep and one sent me some nice pics of some bulls that he saw. I don't doubt that the cows have been thinned down some but they are there. I am headed there tomorrow for a sheep/grizz hunt and will see for myself how the cow moose population is doing on the ride in. If I don't see at least 20-30 moose on the ride in I will be surprised.

The purpose of a cow hunt is to reduce or stabilze the herd numbers. That appears to be happening.

The management goal for South GMU 20D was 3 moose/sq/mile....a lofty goal in any moose habitat for sure......the herd steadily climbed at a rate of about 15%/year until it reached nearly
6 moose sq/mile.....the willows in the large burn areas are becoming over-mature and over-browsed causing the twinning rate to plummet.

There has been a lot of discussion and anxiety in the Delta area over these moose but there is now enough data to identify trends and a couple more years of data will help considerably.

Of greater concern to me is the recent loss of willow browse caused by leafrollers and aphids etc...have you seen all the brown willows along the highways?......this is affecting the favorite feed of moose at a critical time ....those succulent leaves are needed in late summer....

I"d wondered what caused the brown...

I do know I was EXTREMELY surprised in the same number of days basically, 10, out and about every day, some days a fair ways back in to the end of trails and just sitting and watching, to see probably what I'd guess to be at least 70% less moose. Very dissappointing to one, not that I needed to see them.

Guess time will tell what happens in the coming years whether it was a stupid disaster or not.

Did see a number of what I"m fairly sure were wolf kills on the trails too.

Here at home, and thats totally different, usually when game is overpopulated it dies off instead of being harvested if it is really overpopulated, takes too many years to decide to cut numbers politically.

One can only hope the decisions were sound.

I'd bet that a few fires around would sure help things too, as it always does, as long as they don't endanger lives/property.

Oh yeah, not that I count riding in on ATV trails as looking for moose, but we did see one young fork bull both going in and out in the same place, IE not intelligent... yet the round trip was 53.0 miles exactly start to stop and thats the ONLY moose we saw in some GREAT country.

I was in that area from the 8th-12th of August. Probably saw upwards for 40 or 50 moose in just the small area I was in. 7 of which were for sure different bulls.

Mr. alaska lanche,
I live in Sawmill Creek and would sure like to know where in the Delta Junction area you saw ".....40 or 50 moose...." in a 5 day period.
Best Wishes

Thanks man it makes more sense now and I think I can get closer to what I 'm looking for.

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went from Valdez and back around the same time, only saw 4-5 moose, but that was mostly highway driving. Did cruise down the Denali to McLaren, didn't see jack squat there. Course it was really foggy and rainy so that didn't help viz.

Same amount of moose you'd seen in say 2006 or so in the same area?

Wasn't there in 2006. But compared to 2007 there are possibly a few less as to be expected as that was the hope F&G was trying to attain with the cow hunts. Help prevent an over population of moose which leads to over grazing. However, based on what I saw this year the herd certainly isn't hurting. Moose populations 3 years in a row 07,08,09 all still seem higher than the many other areas in the state.

interesting aspect, I'm sure of course as you get off the roads a fair way things are the same, all the cow slaughter was roadside ambush from what I've heard talked about. That just thins out the easy to get to ones, not the ones back in so its not really a level thinning out so to speak until the population reshifts itself if that happens.

Interesting the more I think about it though, if the browse is dying this summer as dry as its been, wouldn't you see more moose hunting harder/longer for food rather than less?

I do know from talking to other folks that some idiot made a paper article about moose in the DJ area some years ago and where it used to be common to find larger/older bulls they've been considerably thinned down. Tends to happen when one blabs to everyone under the sun about easy large animals on public land. Some tell me its never been the same since. I can understand that. One would think limiting tags would be a good idea as needed, but then that says that the powers that be actually think that population was unhealthy and so was the recent one. And there need to be even less.

I know it wasn't nearly as nice seeing very few moose on a camping trip.

But then again, catching 15-16 inch grayling sorta made up for that.

The moose near the roads will certainly be taken advantage of in a hunt like this and it shows in the reduction of road kills.....but the two registration hunts in McCumber Creek area drew 500+ tag requests for what I think was 50 tags...the closing time was issued before the season opened. Hunters are willing to go back a ways to get meat for the freezer. And that is what this cow hunt is all about, harvesting surplus to fill freezers of Alaskans.

This drop in the twinning rate is an indication of browse degradation....it's serious when that twinning rate drops....this area was less than 20% in 2008 and has fallen sharply again for 2009.....in areas of prime browse, the twinning rate can exceed 50%....it doesn't take much math to realize that a 50% twinning rate will produce a pile of moose quickly.

Good info. have not been present to see twins ever. And with cows only having calves every other year that twinning would be a help I'd think. At least the way I understand it.

If every thing goes right, cow moose should have calves every year with 80-90% of cows having calves in the spring......six months later there is usually less than 30 calves per hundred cows.

Thankfully, we have some good trappers and bear hunters here in Delta and they keep those large predators thinned and calf survival boosts the yearling harvest for the next fall.

Mr. VernAK,
Now if I understand you correctly, you are saying you are counting on the ability of "....some good trappers and bear hunters...", combined with the calf twinning rate to replace the animals that should never have been slaughtered in the first place?
Best Wishes

Actually I believe VernAK is stating that the twinning rate is down due to overbrowsing from too many moose. So if some moose were not elminated from the population the twinning rate would continue to decrease due to lack of nutriion because of overbrowsing. Thus the population would at some point crash if this trend was allowed to continue. Atleast that is the theory behind the cow hunts. Just because the moose are no longer crowding the roads making for easier hunts for everyone doesn't mean they are no longer there. Still LOTS of moose in that area.

Good hunting.

Thanks for the clarification Lanche!

Windwalker,
We have a decent calf survival rate and herd growth in this area because the major predators are kept in check by trappers/hunters. I don't have time to research the numbers but South 20D usually has 30 calves per 100 cows in the November survey while some areas have much lower survival rates....some approaching zero where bears are very plentiful. A survival of 30/100 isn't a lot of calves when you consider that 80%-90% of the cows had delivered calves [plus 20% of those had twins] the previous spring but it is a better survival than most areas.


The declining twinning rate is an indication of habitat deteroration. I think ADF&G is doing a habitat survey this year in this area. But a preliminary survey indicates that willows in some of the old burn areas are becoming over mature.

I too was very skeptical but continued growth of the herd and collection of better data has identifed some trends that have made me look at the herd dynamics much closer and change a few of my ideas.

I just hope F&G can continue to gather data on the local herd so we can keep ahead of population trends.

It is my opinion that cows not producing calves are better utilized on an Alaskan dinner table.

Your local AC holds an election about year end....please attend.

vern delta ; there is a lake west of delta that was a classified army post in the early 50s we called it blair lake. i flew bush out of ladd a.f.b. and supplied them.i would fly to delta take a right to blair.my question is.is that its real name?? icannot remember.they had a tame bear they fed, it wound up killing one of the soldiers. that area was full of moose then

vern i was friendly with the couple that owned the bar there do you recall them?

Yes, Blair Lake is part of the military range....I don't think there will be any hunting there this year because of military exercises....

Bar owners at Blair Lake?.....you must mean Delta can you give me a name of bar or people?

Mr. VernAK,
If I understand you correctly, you authorized the slaughter of the resident cow Moose population before a study was done?

Before the killing began, there were enough Moose to meet the requirements of our resident Wolf and Bear populations; not to mention feeding the many local residents and visitors who shared the available hunting area.
Now we have to count on the killing of even more Wolf and Bears because there are no longer enough Moose to feed them?

F&G claims there are not enough Moose in the area and authorized the killing of Grizzly Bears without requiring a permit (fee/tag) for residents, in recent years. So which is it, too many Moose or not enough?

In the past, F&G claimed any over population of Moose in Delta Junction would migrate to other less densely populated areas. Obviously not all of Alaska is overrun with Moose. Are you saying they lied all those years in the past?
Your assistance in clarifying this matter is most appreciated.
Best Wishes

vern; sorry i didnt mean at blair lake. there was a bar down around delta. there was also a place outside of fairbanks called the squadron club. it was the fuselarge of a B-24 is that still there?and the log cabin. i really loved that place (alaska) i wish i never left. maybe ill return one day.

Windwalker, if you've got something to say, why don't you say it, instead of asking all these criptic questions?

Windwalker,

Thanks for your input. I wish I had the authorization abilities you have bestowed upon me. An Advisory Committee is exactly that, ADVISORY! If you talk with other AC members, you will find that I am very moderate in my cow hunt decisions and in retrospect [after observing current willow degradation] that may have been wrong. I do not always agree with F&G staff and worked hard to delay cow hunts in 20D South until we could observe the results in 20As calf and antlerless hunts.

The calving and twinning rates next spring will tell the story.

Let me correct my statement regarding habitat survey....the correct term is "browse survey"...a rather detailed process that may allow F&G to better correlate browse to moose population. There are several indications that the local moose have made maximum use of their habitat and the decline may have begun.

Before [and after] the cow hunts began, the annual harvest of bull moose has been around 200....not much of a yield for a growing herd of 5,000-7,000. Certainly not managing for "Highest Sustainable Yield".

I have heard no claims by F&G that their are too few moose in South 20D.....They do agree that North 20D could sustain a higher moose population but the large predator population keeps that herd growth supressed. The predator decisions are not related to moose alone....the DCUA sheep and McComb caribou are also a large part of the equation.

I have heard no F&G staff claim that moose would migrate from high density to low density population areas. You would know that if you had attended the Moose Management Workshops held in Fairbanks and Delta, at great expense.

I got involved in the local AC because I had heard so much "coffee shop biology" that I wanted to try to educate myself a bit....there is a lot to learn and a lot of different opinions.

I'm urging you to get involved....attend meetings, seek opinions and keep your mind open.....trolling the chat rooms is not beneficial.

You seem to be interested in the wildlife in your neigborhood. Are you aware that the Chairman of the Delta Farm Bureau wants the Delta Bison Herd eradicated? That's a good place to expend your efforts.

Pod,

The old airplane bar is long gone or covered up....an ex-trooper friend is here and he says it was a wild joint.

The old bars in Delta were the Evergreen [Walt} and The Buffalo....

It's been a good place to live....a bit chilly and windy.

Vern

seems like the questions are a good enough way to get answers to me.

Its actually fairly typical at times of game dept, they make a move, sometimes not done with evidence to back it up and sometimes with political pressure and the move turns out bad.

its sure happened here at home before.

Luckily our game dept's last move actually helped the deer herd more than they ever have and I'm thankful for that.

I guess one can't ask questions anymore with the current administration running the US?

Vern,

I appreciate the info. I admit that I am not nearly as involved as I could/should be with the game management in Alaska. I thanks you for your efforts. Its easy to armchair quarterback about what needs to be done and how to go about it.

You statements seem on twinning rates seem to follow what I have seen the past 3 years hunting caribou in the area. (I hunt moose in the fall in a different GMU so I really have no dog in this fight.) I don't recall seeing a single twin set of calfs and I've seen A LOT of moose in there over these years.

Thanks agin for enlightening us.

lanche,

Thanks!

This Game Biology Science is improving.....there is a lot to learn but F&G is getting better data. But data only goes so far....who knows when Mother Nature will send 6' of snow or a new willow parasite

Previous moose population estimates were based on counts with +/- 20% confidence factor. [I wish I could give my accountant and the IRS some +/- 20% numbers.] The Geospatial Moose Surveys are now using confidence factors of +/- 10%.....a huge improvement! These are verified by other independent observers counting the radio collared moose prior to the official count and cross-checking.

ADF&G publised a brief flier 2008 Geospatial Moose Survey 20A. It gives you a better idea of the procedure.

For further information, see if you can borrow the DVD, Interior Alaska Moose Management. It's a taping of the Fairbanks and Delta Moose Management Workshops.....very informative...If you can't find one, contact me after Moose Season and I'll loan you mine.....

vern: thank you for your response. brought back good memories. paid a few 50.00 fines thanks to a misunderstanding or two in that place. my best

WW-
As I'm sure you know, sometimes it is a matter of the "kind" of moose and not necessarily the "amount" of moose. F&G needs to have a bull/cow ratio for an optimum population. The number of cows was outstripping the forage and altering the B/C ratio. That's the basis for the cow hunts.

There is a decrease in moose population, but a positive change in the ratios. It's all about management, not just numbers.


I've now given you more information than I know!

Gentlemen,
I wish to thank you for the additional information. The more we have to review, the better off we all should be; hopefully including the Moose.
Please be assured I am well aware of the need for a bull/cow ratio that will benefit herd growth in a stabilized manner. Observed it many years ago in the lower 48, regarding Deer.
All of my questions and thoughts regarding this matter are based on first hand input from the Delta Junction office of F&G (over the past 18 years) and personal observation in the field.
Best Wishes for a successful hunt, to you all.