Hi: I live in bear country Griz &Blackie so i always carry my 870 12ga loaded with Brenneke slugs when fishing,camping etc. I have only shot one bear[shot lots with rifles]and he was already wounded but it put his lights out almost instantly[300lb bear]Now my question is has anyone on here hunted big bears or had to shoot one in self deffence with a 12 ga slug? I would like to read the results. Thank You for any info. Dan

This is second hand from me but I have met two guys that had to shoot brown bears with Brenneke slugs in the 12 guage. Both said the same thing that they had pass throughs and the bears died right there. One of the guys also shot one close up with 00 buck it was also DRT with a head shot.

I haven't had much luck keeping even ordinary Hornady bullets in the few grizzlies I've killed with rifles. However, a couple summers ago, this critter



came around at midnight (pictured) on the 3/4 of July. Five shots around its toenails, when it came too close to the cabin, finally convinced him to leave. A couple hours later it was back clickety-clacking on the cabin's porch. A couple more shots didn't persuade it to do more than just walk back and forth a short distance away, so I finally put one of these into its shoulders:



It loped off 30-40 yards and finally laid down, where it died after a couple of length-of-the-body shots with 45 Colt carbine (they exitted).



The slug made it sick, but it surely didn't "shock" the animal at all, slow it, or knock it off its feet. Not a great display of "tremendous power" or penetration. I'd much rather have a decent rifle, especially if a decent sized bear was involved.

Never shot a bear. But having shot a couple of deer with w/ slugs, I wouldn't pick it as my first choice for a bear.

I'll be hunting water buffalo in Belize in May with slugs (no rifles allowed there). I've killed one 1000 lb plus scrub bull with a slug, and he dropped like a sack of potatoes. I've killed modest sized (400#) grizzlies with a 375H&H, and it was more than was needed, but could have been useful if longrange shooting was necessary. Shotgun slug is obviously a close range weapon, but perfectly adequate for anything large except pachyderms.
Add: I refer to a hardened lead non-saboted slug with relatively high velocity as opposed to the opposite.

Calculate the SD of a slug. It is VERY low.

So is the opinion of slugs by most folks who have actually tried using them on really big bears

The only "Slug" I would think about using on a grizzly bear or black bear, are those called the Dixie Terminator. They are the real deal in a shotgun slug. You check em out and they will make a believer out of you.

Now other than that, I want at least my .338 Win mag and 275 grain Swift A Frame bullets or my .375-Wby loaded with 300 grn bullet.

I have a little more than a half-dozen DLP kills on bears out here and never had a problem with the Brennekes. The other guys haven't either. I know that PS has way the hell more experience than any of us will ever get, but I have confidence in Brennekes getting the job done at least up close.

Now there have been a few that I've investigated that were shot with regular Foster slugs. The slugs killed them, but were flattened into lead disks. The few Fosters we had in our inventory were used up in training. Any hoodlums or bears needing shot will be shot with Brennekes.

One slug to really avoid when shooting big bears is the Barnes Expander sabot from Federal. A lot of people assume because the slug is a 1-ounce Barnes that it will penetrate deeply, but it expands so widely that penetration is very limited.

When this load was introduced several gun writers were invited to hunt black bear on Vancouver Island with them. My partner shot a boar of about 300 pounds through the shoulder (yes, the "front" shoulder as opposed to the "rear" shoulder) and the Expander barely made it into the bear's chest. The bear was still alive when we followed it up and finished it off.

I was very aware of this when shooting my bear, a 400-pound 7-footer. The slug was placed just behind the shoulder, and was found on the inside of the far shoulder, where it didn't even dent the bone. It killed the bear quickly but would be pretty useless on anything but a broadside rib shot.

A lot of slugs seem intended for modest range whitetail hunting. Not the same thing as defense against a big bear I'd think.

I've shot enough deer with slugs to know that I'd rather have a rifle when a big bear is involved.

Try the Dixie slug 870gr heat treated stopping power.

If you could just launch this baby at, say 3,300 fps, you'd make quite a mess of a bear . . .

I carried these in a Winchester model 1300 Defender for about 2 years but never got a chance to try them out on a bear. I ended up switching to a pistol because the shotgun was too heavy for my hiking trips.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagic.html

I don't know why anyone would want to use a shotgun when the animal can easily kill you.

A rifle is just so much better.

I'd even think a lightweight rifle like the 5 1/4 lb Remington Ti probably carries better than many of the big pistols that some people pack too.

Once you've been up close and personal with a big bear with an attitude - you realize that it's not the time to begin some ballistic experiment.

I have always been underwhelmed with the penetration of slugs - on just about anything I've ever tried them on - including bears. I can't imagine many scenarios where I'd rather use a slug over a TSX or Nosler Partition - in any accepted bear caliber.That doesn't mean I don't like a few slugs in my pocket - while hunting birds - but if it's for protection - I'd rather have a rifle.

Personally - I think I'd rather shoot a bear with a 25-05 with a 115 grain TSX - over a shotgun with a slug, if I was forced to choose between the two. Every cartridge with more power than a 25-06 - would only widen that performance gap.

Have never used them and dont know there effective range but, Dixie makes a tri-ball load w/ 3- 60 caliber hardened round balls, if You can get em delivered on target they gotta leave a mark.

Intended for the fella who can't aim a medium to big bore rifle?

Spray and pray baby!

MM, 10-4, thought the OP was lookin for the best hammer he could sling from a 12 ga.

Gunner

I think people overestimate the power of a shotgun due to the big hole in the barrel, and the healthy thump to the shoulder. In real terms, power/terminal performance is on par with the more powerful revolvers. That's not a bad thing, but a reality check.

I just don't understand giving up the power and accuracy of a rifle to take a shotgun. A medium to large bore rifle with good expanding bullets will create a fist sized wound channel clear through the biggest bear.

I see.

I certainly know folks who think OO and OOO buck shot it the way to fly. Some advocate alternating slugs with buckshot. I also know a buddy who totes around a 10#, or so, Garand stoked with 220 gr RNs for the shear firepower.

A pizzed off bruno is most likely going to need several hits to deter him. And there is a difference in opinion regarding firearm/ammo selection depending on whether the gun bearer in on the offense or defense.

I'm guessing that the OP was asking for that one time he encounters a bear up close and personal. Methinks a 12 ga loaded with those Black Magic Brenneke's at 10 yards will do the damage needed to stop said bear from continuing on with his charge. That was the only reason I ever carried one and never had any intentions of shooting one much further than that. It was for protection and nothing else.

I watched Sarah Palin's Alaska --- she went to a gun range with a target of a bear mounted on a wagon type thing. And without warning the target started moving at Sarah and the Instructor told her to shoot as fast as she could before the target got to her.

It was this scenario that I saw the benefit of the shotgun loaded with OO or OOO or alternating with slugs. If the person can keep his cool with a charging bear, all the better for that person. Me, on the other hand would probably need the shotgun, hoping like hell one of the shots would hit the bear in the head to stop the charge....

Damn right Lippy,

To shoot a chargin animal one would need to keep the frame of mind and take a knee and shoot straight on w/ the animal, not stand above firing down at the animal and worry about leade, although my mind would be sayin, run like hell.

Gunner

The bear is twice as fast (or better) as that human pulling that cart with the target. What do you really want as you first shot? It will be your only one most likely. In a life and death situation all your theories go out the window and reality hits home. I carried a handgun for protection against humans for years and the day I was confronted with a situation I ran because it's hard to lie to yourself when your life depends on it. Reality was I couldn't hit chit with a handgun and had great doubt of the outcome. In a situation with no way out you don't need the stress of doubt. I won't tell anybody what works or doesn't but will tell them to test their theories before you are in a life or death situation. The results will calm you or scare the B-jesus out of you, but you will find out when it dosen't count!

Thats the point I was trying to make...practice at a moving target until you are comfortable with your weapon. As you said, a person can not out run any bear. If the situation occurrs, hopefully you would have time to get a shot or two off...thats where the 00/000 and slug might improve the odds at hitting something vital enough to stop the charge...the situation would be intense.

But if I was bear hunting, I would use a rifle that I comfortable with and I would have practiced bunch before the season started.

Probably the first time I have agreed with you Brian!

Forget the moving the target, put a bear silouette up at 10 paces and shoot a load of 00 at it. If your pattern opens up, then you're hoping one of those pellets lands in a fatal spot, remember you only have 15 of them. Also if you look at the terminal power of a single 00 pellet, it's not a hole lot more than a 32 pistol, which I would never in a million years consider suitable against a bear.

So, if you can't trust your life to one 00 pellet, and I sure wouldn't, that means you need a pattern tight enough for the pellets to land in a single mass, which means aiming is just as critical as for a single projectile.

So you're back to slugs, which means you're trying to make a bird gun into a powerful handgun, more or less.

I think alot of rifle hunters underestimate the Brenneke shotgun slugs by quite a bit. I've shot them lengthwise through big whitetails several times with the slug entering the brisket and exiting the a$$. The same shot with my .30-06 and 180 gr core-lokts resulted in the bullet stopping somewhere in the guts.

I think whitetail hunters underestimate the difference between the physiology a deer and a large bear.

If we look at real experience there are a few folks who claim the shotgun slugs worked for them and a majority who say they were either marginal or failures. The results of heavy rifles is virtually 100% positive. When your life is on the line - which one would you choose?

No but I can sure tell when a slug outpenetrates a 180 core-lokt from a .30-06.

*sigh* right, right.
New handle, same troll.

Well not too friendly here are we ? That's OK, I read enough here before I registered to know there are plenty of A$$holes around. Bot no, you are wrong. I've never posted on this site before today.

A fair amount of experience with slugs on whitetails, none whatsoever with them (or anything for that matter)on bears, I offer my thoughts based on that. As John said, the Barnes/Federal is designed for expansion, not penetration. Works like a charm on whitetails, but I would not want to choose it for large, tough, mean critters. As has been pointed out (even from experience, I believe) the Brenneke would hold its shape and penetrate better than most others. When the first BRI sabots came out, I believe that they were declared too hard for deer, passing through without expanding. That might make them (if they can be found) one of the better choices. (When Winchester took over the design, I believe that they softened them for better expansion.) Like I said, just offering up some thoughts for consideration, not claiming any expertise.

Well, I've taken a deer or two with about every slug on the market, including the Brenneke. And I've put most of them through water jugs. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying you're pretty much FOS.:) And a troll-I've read all of your posts.

"Thats the point I was trying to make...practice at a moving target until you are comfortable with your weapon. As you said, a person can not out run any bear. If the situation occurrs, hopefully you would have time to get a shot or two off...thats where the 00/000 and slug might improve the odds at hitting something vital enough to stop the charge...the situation would be intense."



After some testing, I wouldn't trust buckshot to penetrate a bears skull for a quick kill, nor a shotgun with a foster slug due to accuracy. Training with my large bore rifles (375 H&H, 416 Ruger) has proven to me how with practice, kill shots are very accurate and practical at short ranges with rifles. I punched two holes in a 3/8 inch steel plate at a 45 degree angle from 30 yrds with a 416, 400 grain at 2150fps out the barrel. The shotgun slugs (Foster) and buckshot bounced. The 1x3 Weaver scopes are accurate at quick shots as you can leave both eyes open on 1X. The accuracy of my shotgun improved greatly also with the addition of a scope but the penetration issue still bothers me though I have no experience with Dixie slugs and others. For me there is no question with my rifles penetration still just my shooting.

Uhh, yeah, well I've got 35 years experience killin' deer with slugs myself and have taken well over 100 with them. Try the 1 3/8 oz. Brenneke Golds on a few and get back to me OK jerkwater ?

I have to agree that many folks probably overestimate the Brenneke shotgun slugs by quite a bit; I'm sure that must have been what you meant. And yes, I too have run good 223 bullets lengthwise through caribou a time or two.

Same page; completely different book.

No, that wasn't what I meant at all. I've killed my fair share of deer with a .223 myself {as well as .22 LR, .22 MAG,5mm Rem. mag., .22 Hornet,.222,.22-250,.243, 7mm R Mag, .30-06, .308, .30-30, .357 mag,.35 Rem. .44 mag. .50 cal. muzzleloader. and broadheads} and NOTHING you can shoot out of a .223 is remotely comparable to a 1 3/8 oz. Brenneke slug. Listen, don't try to bullschitt me and I'll give the same in return. I never said slugs were better for bear defense than a heavy rifle, Just that I believe their capabilities are underestimated by those unfamiliar.

I was trying to give you the benefit of having already read the previous responses in this thread. I guess I erred.

Go back to the top. See my first post; it's about #3 in the line: #4689723. Get back to me if you have any questions. (The bear was not a large bear in case you miss that somehow, yes, basically broadside too.) And you missed the point I was making about the 223.

Slugs can be useful; rifles are better. "."

[quote=Klikitarik]I was trying to give you the benefit of having already read the previous responses in this thread. I guess I erred.Go back to the top. See my first post; it's about #3 in the line: #4689723. Get back to me if you have any questions. (The bear was not a large bear in case you miss that somehow, yes, basically broadside too.) And you missed the point I was making about the 223.[quote]
Well then I guess you'd better explain it to my dumbass a little better. I've never shot a grizzly as we're fresh out in my area of the lower 48. I have killed a 416 lb. blackie with a 12 gauge slug. Dropped him dead as hell with one shot through the neck at 40 yards. In my experience you can kill damn near anything with anything if you hit em right. dropped a big whitetail buck with one shot from a S&W .22 LR kit gun betwixt the eye and ear one time while checking traps. Hit somethin' right they tend to die easy. Hit 'em wrong, not so easy.

BossLady/Karen/Framus/ OldJerk, izzat you??

Sorry douchebag, you got the wrong guy.

If they had chose the DIXIE Terminator 730 grain and .730 diameter heat treated hard cast slug they all would have enjoyed 100 success

At the Linebaugh seminar the Terminator penetrated 1" less than did the 400 Partition from my 416 Rigby and the wound channel was about 3 to 4 times larger

Yeah, the Dixie Terminators are mean.

It certainly does look impressive.

That one and the 870gr will get it done in a hurry.

carried a shotgun for many years, as it's the tool I was once upon a time most comfortable, due to the amount of use and proficiency with said item.


kinda like carrying concealed, a guy chooses his compromise based upon his own needs and comfort levels.

carried and used a .44 mag in Ruger Redhawk a good bit too for awhile, momma still has a 4" 629 as her berry pickin companion.


not saying it's right for others, but I find even a combat shotgun too bulky for my tastes.

I've settled on hard cast lead bullets at around 1900 fps outa a GG in .45/70 as my chore, walk around, boat, snowmachine gun , it's where my comfort level is at currently.

it's handy, quick to action, sights fast with the ghost ring set up and anyone in my group including my crippled azz southpaw self can grab it and use it in a heartbeat.


I'd rather pack my NULA in 7mm-08 than a shotgun if I'm hiking or doing stuff. but that's just what I feel is right for me and my own comfort levels.

I've spent and spend a fair amount of time in "bear country", if I absolutely knew I was gonna get charged by a bear, I'd opt for a .500 H&H

same way if I knew I was gonna be accosted by guys with bad intent, I'd want the shotgun, but mostly gonna have to get by with a .40 or .45 till I can get to heavier artillery


when the chit really hits the fan, you want to be armed with the most capable tool possible, but most will never be in a SHTF situation either with bears or humans

so you make compromises, sure it pays to take advice from guys with real world experience (.458Win comes to mind) but in the end you gotta find what works for you, be it sleep systems, hiking boots or firearms.

458 Lott---"Forget the moving the target, put a bear silouette up at 10 paces and shoot a load of 00 at it. If your pattern opens up, then you're hoping one of those pellets lands in a fatal spot, remember you only have 15 of them. Also if you look at the terminal power of a single 00 pellet, it's not a hole lot more than a 32 pistol, which I would never in a million years consider suitable against a bear".

I, myself, never thought of 00 pellet as a 32 pistol round, which it is size. That for me puts this in a different perspective. If a shotgun was to be used for camp duty --- speciality shells such as those from Dixie Slugs would be the way to go. But now I'm thinking a compact lever action or pump action rifle would be the tool needed in this situation.

Not saying they can't work, nor that Brennekes aren't better than many other slugs. Simply, Brennekes, as good as they would appear to be and as hard as they feel like they must hit based on the recoil, if they can be stopped by a small bear without breaking significant quantities of bone, then I'd rather be running a rifle. In the example I cited, the bear's reaction to a through shoulders shot was to raise the poop gate and make rapid tracks. Had that been a big bear and had he decided to use his last minute of life differently, he certainly could have made things a lot more interesting for us.

Knockdown power, where bears are concerned, is largely a misnomer but for very precise shot placement and/or very powerful rifles. Consequently, I prefer to err on the side of penetration. (And yes, I prefer a M94 30-30 with 170 Core-lokts to 12 gauge buckshot. It's a penetration thing.)

Now if someone whould make an 8 bore double that could handle the hard 3 oz industrial slugs used to clean out cement trucks they should have a real bear thumper.

You mean slag busters?

Just for info (and giggles), the 8-Gauge slag blasting, 3-Ounce cylindrical slug round is at far right, next to a 10-Gauge 2 7/8" shell. It makes my shoulder ache just to look at it.

Holy Cow! Man that is some shotgun shell to say the least. I also would not want to pull the trigger on that shell, it just might break a shooters shoulder.

Good explanation of your position there bud and I appreciate it. Nothing in there I'd feel compelled to disagree with at all either.I'd probably choose a rifle myself if I thought I might need to deal with a bad tempered grizz.

I played with enough of the foster style slugs and even the Brenneke in LE to not trust them as a heavy penetrator, much rather have a simple .308 with proper ammo.

Is the Dixie available as loaded ammo? Also has anyone played with the dupleks? Lathe turned steel slugs are now on the California legal list (yes my bigs are in fricken condor zones) but I still have not seen any objective results.

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Monolit32

A Marlin 1895G or 1895 pushing a hard cast 405 or similar is the "slug" I would choose. I've shot lots of blackies of varying size with SSG specials and 00 Bucks, and while they work, shot placement has to be centred in the forehead at scary close range. Shotgun slugs would be better, but for penetration and bone crushing give me a rifle every time. A 760 Remmy carbine in '06/220 or a Whelen 35 with 250's should be better than shotgun slugs, IMHO.

Yes. The Terminater Slug at 730 grains is not their only offering in 12 guage as they also offer a 870 grain slug

Also a buckshot load consisting of 3- .600 diameter balls wieghing 314 grains each

Bet you those heavy slugs would push hard on both ends.

Don't forget, that an 870 has the same receiver port size in both 2 3/4" and 3 " chambered guns. The safest bet on clean follow-ups is to use the shorter shell size, or at the very least, shoot enough of your desired ammo as to be aware of any hitches. Any gun should work very well when worked slow, fast, or anything in between if you plan to count on it for defensive use when your adrenaline is cooking.

Gotta love 870gr heat treated chunk of lead and other metals mixed in.

Hi Brian: I have delt with pissed off bears with a rifle but what i asked is how a brenneke slug works because i was not impressed with regular slugs in stumps. I have 416 rigby,458wm 375 ruger but all are heavy and don't have a folding stock like the 870. Dan

Home Of The Terminator Slug

For what it's worth I grew up hunting whitetails in a shotgun only zone and the Brenneke is by far my favorite slug. However if I was about to walk into brown bear country I think I'd leave the 12ga at home. If you asked 20 guides what they carry in bear country I would be surprised if more than one(if any) said a shotgun.

I have zero experience with slugs on game. Here in Canada the 1 1/4 oz Federal slugs have an outstanding reputation for bear defense. I stoke them in my 12.5" 870 Clone when fishing. After reading this thread I am starting to wonder.

The slugs "outstanding reputation for bear defense" - is sort of like one of those urban myths we hear about every so often.

You know, like one about the couple who went to Mexico and bought a rat, all the while thinking it was a chihuahua - that sort of thing.

I think the logic behind the myth, goes something like this - the hole in the barrel is huge, the kick is powerful - they must really flatten game!

The urban myth sometimes starts to fall apart, if just one simple question is asked.

"So, have you killed a lot of charging bears with these slugs?"

Some "facts" - are better left untested.