Interested to see if anyone here is using or has used a push feed action to hunt brown bears.I know a few who do and a few who refuse to. Ive got a 700 in 375 H&H with a sako extractor that i feel comfortable with. Anyone else?

I've killed a couple grizz with a model 7 in .308 so I think your you'll be ok.

I shot a grizz years ago with my pf M70 270. Push feeds kill dangerous critters too!

I push the arrow onto my string. Does that count?

My Weatherby MKV is a push feed and worked fine on brown and black bears in AK for me.

lol....


Hey, did you get your RSVP into big Mike?

One can find if you look long and hard of 700 extractor failures. One does not have to look as hard to find claw extractor rifles with feed issues. A 375 or better yet a 300 H&H feed nicly so pushed, I guess better feeding of cartridges is preferred to the theory of bad push feed extractors failing. It could be a concern, I have fresh 700 extractors in my .416s and do change before needed on any used 700 that comes my way. Never had the M-16 extractor fitted, but seems to work Ok unless you go crazy with hot handloads. I have a .340 WBY V that is box stock and as it is the first shot that determines most outcomes, push feeds get the job done, too.

Shot before I had a puter and blissfully unaware PF's were a problem.....

700 L/A 358 STA:

yessir

Nice bear. Love that coloration on him. What bullet?

A friend guides in AK... used nothing but push feed 338 win mag Rem 700 since I can remember... at least since about 2003 anyway... and has had to use it more than once on clients animals...

Thanks....

250 Partition broke the off shoulder, found just under the hide....

love that color on that bear. What did it square?

Thanks.....9'3"....took 'em 200 miles north of Dillingham...almost a griz...

aalf,

You still have that 358 STA? I've always been intrigued by that cartridge and always wanted one. Hard to justify after I got the 358 Norma 6-7 years ago. I never hunted with the Partitions in mine, just the A-Frames.

No, I ended up selling it. At one time, I had barrels in the 358, 7 STW, 375 H&H, and then had that barrel re-chambered to H&H Improved. Also, after the bear hunt, I bought a 700 in 416 RM with the idea I needed something bigger.

In a downsizing effort all these went done the road, and 2-3 years ago I built a 375 Ruger on another s/s 700 to cover my bases.

Then, a couple months ago,in another downsize, I sold the 375. My "big" gun now is a 338-06 Ackley, again on a 700 stainless. I'm keepin' that one dammit....

I don't have any controlled round feed(crf) rifles. I can see the need for crf rifles if you are a guide and carry a rifle 6 to 8 months a year, but for the fella who carries a rifle 2 or 3 weeks a year I don't feel its needed. Keep your rifle clean, properly oiled(not too much), practice feeding rounds, and learn how to operate your rifle without having to think. Practice, practice, practice, and if its a kicker, wear a sissy pad, and limit yourself to 15 to 20 rounds a session, no need to get a flinch.

Since I've shot all of my bears with a PF rifle, save one with a Whitworth CRF in .375 Holland, I'll say you're A-OK.

FWIW, the US military considers push-feed to be perfect for hunting the Taliban and other baddies.

I shot both my interior grizz and my Brown Bear with push feeds. Nula in .300 win and the Brown with a 700 .375.....incidently also with a Sako extracter.

Phew, lucky I survived.


LC

I have shot a few critters in my day and still counting. I have worked the action of a Remington 700 for a bit more than that and I have never had a mishap..

Just my 2 cents.

All is good.

I push a single 375H&H into my Encore before I shoot. In all fairness, I had backup on my bear hunt this year but didn't need it.

As there are a lot more PF rifles than CRF rifles now being made - and have been for quite a few years - I would venture to guess that a lot more bears are killed with PF rifles than CRF rifles.
After all, under all but the worst conditions they work every bit as well.

A long time ago, in the 1960's and 1970's, the most used outfit by non-resident brown bear hunters was the Mark V Wby in 300 using 180 Nosler screw machined bullets.

There was a time when the Wby MkV was semi-popular but it's price was always high - my memory is that the pre-64 M-70 was a lot more popular by a wide margin. The Rem M-700 eventually became almost as popular by the 1980's

I would worry more about getting the bullet in the right place the first time than worrying about anything else...

And I would venture a guess that those rifles get a thorough work out in some of the worst conditions imaginable.

All true but missing the point as bears are shot at close range, rather than sniped at long range, and usually done with bolt actions. The "push feed" rifles being used by our military for similar CQB use are typically able to operate on full auto.

Still, a well tuned PF bolt action being operated by a competent user will work just fine for brown/grizzly hunting

I think that, right there, is the crux of it all. I would also assume the "competent user" would have tried and tested the rifle enough to know whether it was sound in every respect of function and reliability. (I've been fooled by new rifles 'identical' to older proven models I own.)

I'm a rare survivor of PF rifles.

truthfully I have been lucky, not crazy about how Rem attaches their bolt handles (though mine have stayed on) but I've never had a hitch feeding quite a few rounds through both a 7 mag and a .338 in PF mode.

and that from a guy that used to haul that rifle through some pretty extreme weather about 100 miles give or take, north of Dillingham for 4-6 weeks at a time.

but I got too old and left it to the whippersnappers like Shoemaker.

btw Phil how'd you guys fair on weather this year? Talked to Henry Tiffany the other day and he got hosed by weather this year, both during sheep and moose season. don't know if he had any hunts in Cold Bay this year, forgot to ask him.

Very good point Phil and the comment was not directed at any other post. Whether PF or CRF, its the operator that can make things go bad in a hurray also.

Question, I've never had an ejector/extractor fail on either type of action or for that matter on a lever gun or pump. I've heard stories of broken extractors. How common is this? Phil, looking at your 458, it looks like its been here, there and everywhere, has this occurred or do you have a regular maintenece schedule to replace?

I use Rem 700s and, while the 'adhesive' method of construction isn't superior to most others, silver brazing can be very sound when it is done correctly. (That is the method I prefer for sight attachment to barrels in fact.) "When it is done correctly" is why I wouldn't take a rifle such as a 700 on any important or expensive hunt unless I knew the rifle well and trusted it. But I do use Model Sevens, even keep one around as a sometimes bear rifle, but I have shot them enough, both hot and soft, and know they don't come apart under either condition. But I'm one of those silly old boys who won't load ammo hot or tight for big game hunting. In fact, I'm quite okay with leaving an MOA on the table in order to have the assurance that my ammo will slide right in, empties will drop right out, and my rifle won't squirt anything anywhere other than out the spout.



It's always the extractor, isn't it? That seems kind of funny when you put it into context. Some guides frown on the use of handloads. I don't find that so very surprising considering the fact that many folks seem to work with hunting ammo which is minimally sized, or has bullets seated kissing, or very nearly so, the rifling. (Ever see what happens when a case-full of powder ends up in the action? ... It ain't funny!) Then there's the ammo that is just barely short enough for the magazine, the ammo which hangs up...oh, only rarely. (You know when it will!) What about the magazine spring. Ever think about what will happen to the rifle if it breaks? Ever been on a hunt where everything is good until the wheels start coming off the cart and it turns into gits and shiggles? Did you count the cartridges you stuffed in the mag during reload, or did you just shove them in. Did I ask if you've ever broke a magazine spring? Yeah, it's about as funny as ice water all the way up to say, your belly button. Have you ever "slapped and slammed" ammo down range as fast and as hard as you can aim and go? No? Do you suppose you might do something similar when old canus lupus bolts on you after near miss? Are you certain your rifle feeds perfectly under those conditions? (That's a really lousy time to have a stove-pipe jam you know. )

Alright, I've told enough tales on somebody, but perhaps there is a point. I'm less concerned about what parts may get worn out at the range from time to time; more concerned with what can happen in the field and what I can prevent.

I have only seen a few serious issues with extractors that failed and one was with a post 64 Win M-70 that had loads of dirt under the extractor and the other three were M-700 Rem's that pulled off the rim and left the fired case in the chamber.

As for this past fall, it was the wettest I have seen on the peninsula in 33 years. you can ask Biebs and I am sure he will verify that as well.

Hate like hades I missed that!

kinda one of the nice things about you Phil, from what I know and hear, a guy don't need much verification if you say something, you can pretty well count on it. Good quality imo, tis why I enjoy Tiffany as well, he's a straight shooter, figuratively and literally.
Te, is the guy that turned me onto Barney's packs. He runs a good outfit, provides a great service to his clients, well you don't need to hear it, you live it.

always makes me cringe when I hear of outfitters that skirt the law or client needs, when I know there are guys like you and him and John Petersen, that bust hump to make it all happen legit.

didn't have much rain in the Interior during moose season, but we did have some wind.


got caught one afternoon/evening holding on for dear life 50 feet up a 90 ft. spruce tree while aspens were crashing all around me


dang near as cheap as going to the fair, believe we only spent $400 in gas to get there, but oh man what a ride!

I shot my kodiak bear with a weatherby mark V 375 H&H. I didnt loose any sleep over my choice of gun.

Great post Klik...lots of common sense stuff thre that is infrequently mentioned.It gets lost in the din of things like kissing lands and improved cases loaded to the bursting point.Folks seem to forget that the FIRST mission of rifle and ammo in hunting scenarios is to function flawlessly,first and foremost. The Brits understood this all too well.....Americans, OTOH worship at the alter of squeezing the last fps from the smallest possible case with the potential for less than perfect function.

Gently cycling rounds one at a time over sandbags doesn't bear the foggiest resemblance to running them hard from the shoulder if needed.I have seen the old "slip over the rim" extractor snafu but fortunately on a mule deer headed away.

A "kit" accompanies my M70's when I go on a trip for trigger repairs; I have needed it once in 30-odd years to fix someone else's rifle. He was astonished I even had it!

And a spare extractor was made for my M70 375....I have been remiss regarding a follower spring but at your suggestion will tend to that as well.

Thanks for bringing some common sense stuff to the thread.

I've shot three brown bears with PF rifles and not been let down yet--of course I shoot my rifles a bit and know they function accordingly. I've no hesitancy using any rifle that functions properly (regardless of design) and no patience for any rifle that doesn't.......

Regarding the construction method of attaching bolt handles on Remington 700s, let me add this for your consideration.

Just before Thanksgiving, I purchased a new Remington Model 700 XCR II rifle in .30-06. This is the model with the black TriNite finish. On Thanksgiving morning, that rifle went to the range.

After putting the rifle on the sand bags on the shooting bench, the shooter went to push the bolt forward on a completely empty rifle. The box of ammo was still unopened.

There followed a strange metallic clink, and I looked on in disbelief as the bolt handle was now lying on the shooting bench. It fell off before the bolt was even fully forward, and way before the bolt was being turned down.

Obviously the rifle did not get fired.

That rifle is now back at Remington, and I am waiting with great interest to see what they choose to do.

As an aside, the rifling in the barrel did not start uniformly where the barrel meets the receiver. It started on one side where it should, but it only started farther down the barrel on the other side.

Since the rifle could not be shot, I do not know what effect this would have had on accuracy.

Anything can happen in a manufacturing process. But this certainly raises some questions in my mind about the quality control of the current Remington Model 700.

I am and always have been a fan of the Remington 700. From war zones to hunting every corner of the planet the 700 has been there done that. I have had yet to have a failure in any sense if the word , I do admit that I have sako style extractors installed in the majority of them, as i have witnessed extraction ejection failures on friends rifles .Although I have seen a 700 bolt pounded open with a rubber mallet after firing a "overloaded" round without the bolt coming apart , have even witnessed them kicked open with a boot heel due to the same problem. I have never been obsessed over controlled feed actions because I have found that feed issues with bolt actions are usually attributed to ammo/ magazine issues / spring and or follower. I like the simplicity of the 700. However, it does pain me to say that current production 700's have suffered some quality production issues , too bad that Remington has allowed this to happen. The simple and proven design isnt the problem its got to have something to do with chasing a dollar.

The OP had a Remington Model 700 in .375 H&H with a Sako extractor. Well maintained, there really is nothing wrong with this.

Despite my current problems with a M700, I have others that are completely reliable. A M700 in .270 Win not only feeds well, but it will also feed loaded cartridges reliably when upside down, and it will do the same with empty brass cases. Push feed works.

But as my problems show, there is more to it than just push feed versus CRF. The M70s that I favor when hunting in dangerous game country are built differently than the M700s that I tend to use in tamer country. I like them both.

But when the rifle just absolutely has to work, M70s have certain features that make them more attractive to me than my M700.

I have little experience hunting in Alaska, and none hunting bears. But when I hunted in SE Alaska for Sitka blacktails with only my wife as my hunting partner, I carried my M70. She carried a push feed Ruger! They both worked!

If a gun has shown that it is reliable through a lengthy period of shooting and carrying it in real world hunting environments, then it is probably OK for hunting browns and grizzlies too.

If the rifle gives you confidence when in your hands, then it is probably a good rifle to take. There is no gun that I would rather have in my hands than my M70. YMMV.

Here are some photos to illustrate the bolt handle failure from my recent M700 XCR II. Things happen, but I would still trust a well used push feed M700.

Sad to see.Come on Remington get it together! Hooper ordinance does a knob reinforce worth looking into....not that we should have to!

Maybe Remington will send my M700 back with three screws added, just to be sure!

They should!

Yours certainly looks improperly prepared/installed prior to brazing...lots of gap it looks like, and that silver 'solder' is supposed to be able to pull right in by capillary action when the heat is right if the fit is good.

FWIW, ten or so years ago, I paid to send my M700 stainless Mountain rifle, at Rem's instructions, to the warranty service center in Fairbanks. They looked at it and decided it needed to be review by the factory. I paid for that trip also. After the factory returned it at their cost to the warranty center, I again had to pay ransom to have it delivered back to me. I'm glad I have had better warranty dealings with Ruger, RCBS, Hornady, Weaver, Leupold, and Burris. Otherwise, I'm not sure that I would have realized how crappy Remington's is. Well, at least they're consistent. I had the same "excellent" service from them 34 years ago as well. I'm glad gunsmiths generally like to work on them.

All that aside, when you get a good one, they're good rifles, whether it's a M700, Model Seven, M78, or whatever. I've shot and used plenty of good Remingtons. I'm just not much proud of the company and think they could quite readily improve, and probably save money doing it.

Really???? Klik, you have had warranty issues with all those brands you listed? Seriously? That's hard to believe.

Never had a feed problem in any of my dozen 700's.. I have a couple of Guide buddies that claim to have seen 3 failures in Remingtons in maybe 100 rounds "Shot" in the field.. BS! Operator error is more likely.

My guide rifle is a 700 .375H&H push feed... Has never failed once.. EVER!, since it was born as a .300 Win mag in 1972. It was my Dads' before it was mine. Multi-thousands of rounds later...

Was thinking about taking my "non" push fed .416 Rigby to Unimak this Spring... What do you guys think? Lol

Also FWIW, Remington readily agreed to pay the freight to get my rifle back to them. I didn't even have to ask. The customer rep said he had heard of bolt handles coming off, but never one like this. I guess that might have made a difference as he apologized very much for the problem.

Do any of you have any ideas about how the rifling only starts at the proper place on one side of the barrel and not the other? Looking with a borescope, I am not sure how much difference there is, but on one side the rifling is not at all visible until I move the borescope another fraction of an inch down the barrel.

What could make this happen?

Let's just say that the brands I listed have all given me great warranty service, mostly when I asked them to send me the bill when I felt fully responsible. How can you fault a company, the Weaver example, when you drop a rifle from a snowmachine going 30-40 mph and both ends get bent to where the scope is off by two feet at 50 feet? I asked for a functional repair, not cosmetic perfection, and the bill. They sent a brand new scope with an N/C invoice. That has been typical of the other brands as well.

Heck, a stainless antennae mount I had on my skiff broke years ago. I called Shakespeare or wrote them and explained what happened and how, (a strong skiff can really beat the poop out of stuff in the coastal environment.) I just needed a replacement part which I figured they might replace or bill me for. I was okay with it either way. They sent a whole new unit, the heavy duty version which was considerably more expensive than the standard unit I bought in the first place.

My M700 "bolt handle falling off" experience, not the first I've seen, but own own personal experience, happened when I was heading out the door, had just loaded the magazine, and dropped the bolt on an empty chamber with the trigger pulled. I know that there is an element of snap-down when you do that, but never enough to stress a properly brazed connection. When they do it properly, it's fine. A fellow should not have to pay for their mistakes; because of where I live, by following their instructions for warranty service, I paid three times. Kind of hard to be impressed by that kind of service.

Just small bears over there, anyhow. You get a permit?

Permits come 20 to a box...haha

Got this one with a push feed, Rem 700 XCR II in 375 Weatherby ...

nice bear . guess he will never know a push feed did him in!

Can somebody explain to me the concern over a push feed instead of a controlled feed? What is the prevailing wisdom of concern, that push feeds do what?

It's mainly a mental exercise, both work fine when they are kept clean and your ammo is in good shape. If my pre-64s turned into push-feeds in 12 days it wouldn't make a rats ass difference to me and I guide & hunt brown bears every year.

It probably makes no difference, although I have heard stories of people under stress jamming a push-feed rifle. The last time I heard of such a case was about eight years ago, and this is what I remember: a client shot and injured a bear, and the guide had to track it. He was carrying a .416 (push-feed), and the bear charged him. During the struggle he jammed his rifle. If I well remember he managed to kill the bear, but the bear chewed him some.

Maybe somebody here will remember who this guide was (?)

I don't remember his name, but his friends call him Lucky.

That sums it up for me. I started this thread because the PF vs CRF thing is one of those "gun talk" topics that I have heard all my life. And figured a Brown/Griz hunt would be about the best test of peoples opinion. Ford Dodge Chevy. Like I said in the op I would not hesitate to take a pf on a bear hunt or to Africa , my 700's feed sideways , upside down and so do my crf's. Been cool to hear everyone's input.

A few years ago Craig Boddington said that the only jam he had ever had was with a CRF rifle, and it was so bad that it took a while to "fix."
I've never found my push feeds to cause a problem, then again I take care of my weapons and my handloads are never pushing the envelope.

Barkoff the mechanics go like this:

In a properly designed CRF, the cartridge is matched to the length of the magazine box,feed rails are set up for that cartridge,extraction is handled by a large,non rotating claw extractor.But there are subtle nuances to the system that work in sync with one anither, In a proper CRF system(Mauser 98) everything is there for a purpose and works in sync with everything else.

Feeding is accomplished as the bolt moves forward and the bolt face picks up the rim of the case and strips it forward.At the instant the cartridge pops up from the rails it slides under the claw extractor,which grabs or "controls it" on the balance of its trip into the chamber,the firing of the cartridge,and its trip out of the chamber as the bolt is turned up and drawn to the rear.These extractors generally grab a large chunk of the rimof the case,making it harder to "pull though" a soft brass rim.In a mauser 98 design,thereis a machined reces around the bolt behind the bolt head into which fits another claw on the extractor which supports the extractor's grip on the case, so that the harder you yank on the bolt, the tighter the grip on the case...helpful with a stuck or dirty case,and prevents the extractor from jumping the rim of the case and leaving a fired case into the chamber.

Extraction is accomplished by two functions in a proper design;the first is as you lift the bolt handle and the camming action draws the cartridge slightly to the rear,freeing its grips on the chamber walls(in a properly designed cartridge that is tapered.An improved case with parallel sides(AI)does not do this as well as a tapered case.)Again, helpful in extracing a dirty or stuck case. As the bolt is moved forcefully to the rear,the extractor holds the case until it encounters the standing ejector which slides into a slot in the bolt face(perfectly "timed") and kicks the fired case out the loading port.

It is important to note here,that in a proper CRF,the bolt cannot pick up the next cartridge until the one on the bolt face is kicked out the port(or it shouldn't and if it does, it is not a properly made CRF action).

In a PF action,the cartridge is loose once it clears the rails in feeding and does not get grabbed by the extractor until the cartridge is fully,or almost,chambered,when the extractor jumps over the rim and grabs it.

This is in part what distinguishes one system over the other....if in operating the PF, you short stroke the bolt for any reason(panic in wartime,a buff bearing down or plain old buck fever,or a cartridge reluctant to chamber)and withdraw the bolt, the cartridge is now sitting in the rails and loading port.If you pull the bolt back far enough,and then move it forward again, the bolt will pick up another cartridge and the result is two cartridges in the port and the rifle will jam.(In a properly built CRF,this should not happen provided the cartridge length is sync'd to the magazine box...if you chamber(say) a 7x57 in a 30/06 length actionso that the cartdige is not in sync with the nag box length,all bets could be off....it will likely work but you could double feed potentially with that set up).

Ejection with the PF is controlled by a plunger in the bolt face actuated by a small spring that exerts pressure on the cartridge as it is withdrawn from the chamber and kicks it out the loading port once the mouth of the case clears the receiver.

Extraction with the PF is accomplished(Rem700) with a small spring in the bolt face that jumps over the rim of the case as the bolt is turned down into battery;ditto a M70 PF where a small spring loaded extractor slides over the rim when the round is chambered.These are both small,don't grab as large a hunk of the rim as the more massive extractor of the Mauser 98 design.other designs use a different extractor,like the Sako,M16 type, etc.

Mighta left something out....my brain is fogged

Bob,

I ran the "charging Cape buffalo" station on a practical hunting course for three years. The first year it was rapid shooting at stationary targets at different distances, but the last two years we had the target "charging" from behind a bush almost directly at the shooter--who had 6-7 seconds to get off as many shots as possible. Most people got off two, but a few very quick shots could get off three, and the best shots got off three in the "vitals." I saw just as many people jam controlled-feed rifles as push-feed rifles, usually by not bringing the bolt back far enough to eject the empty (short stroking).

According to shooting lore, this isn't possible, but after looking at the jams and doing a little thinking, I concluded the CRF jams could occur for two reasons:

1) The next round down in the magazine can still slide forward with the short-stroked bolt, either due to friction from the empty case, or:

2) The very bottom of the bolt face pushes the empty forward. This is rarer, but can happen in some CRF actions if the bolt is drawn just far enough back for the bolt face to end up behind the case head, but not far enough for the case head to hit the ejector.

On the other hand, empties from push-feed cases are ejected the instant the case mouth clears the front receiver ring. Thus the bolt doesn't have to travel as far back as in a CRF action for the fired case to eject.

The biggie in operating a bolt action is not whether it's PF or CRF, but bringing the bolt all the way back until it stops. People who operate a bolt by grabbing the knob sometimes don't bring it back all the way, especially when trying to hurry.

There are several ways to run a bolt, but the way I do it is the palm method. Instead of grabbing the bolt knob, I pull it back with my fingers cupped, palm up. When the bolt stops I reverse my hand and push the bolt forward, palm still open, with my thumb. It's impossible to short-stroke a bolt when using the technique, and it's also usually faster for most people, since instead of 4 motions (lift bolt knob, pull bolt back, drop bolt knob, push bolt forward) it's basically just a back-and-forth, 2-stroke motion.

I am not the world's fastest with a bolt rifle, but I shot the charging buffalo target as fast as anybody else did, even shooters who were using lever-actions. Sometimes that speed has come in handy in the field, including when I shot my only grizzly--with a push-feed rifle.

I have many discusions with D Lazer, master Alaskan guide. He has been involved in over 300 brown/grizzly kills. The most jams have come from M70 winchesers and mausers. Remingtons and the tang safety Ruger M77's have been the most reliable. His back up rifle is a tang safety M77 30-06 loaded with 220 gr factory.

Lefty C

JB: Pulling the bolt back all the way is the trick and "good form"

I was trying to explain the theory and mechanics of one vs the other.I know neither system is infallible...I haven't ever had a problem with a CRF or a PF but then I have made a point of practicing quite a bit years past,so they haven't given me any trouble.

I do like the feel of a controlled feed a lot better....kind of like the difference between a stick and auto transmission,where you can feel he action run through its paces





Lefty all I can say is that if that guide is seeing lots of jams with Mausers and Winchesters he must be guiding a bunch of boobs.

I hardly think it has a thing to do with the inherent superiorty of the other actions.

Bob,

You did an excellent job of describing the theory and mechanics. i was just adding some of my experience.

I might also add that I firmly believe the 98 Mauser is still the most reliable bolt-action in every basic way. The pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester (or the M70 Classic) is good but for several reasons doesn't measure up except in peripheral ways, such as the safety and trigger. But the heart of the 98 action is superior, both in extraction and gas handling.

One of the best of the newer CRF actions is the Montana 1999 action. It was designed to combine the best features of the 98 and M70, and pretty much succeeded!

Bob,


WellI don't know if they were boobs or not, but when a big brownie stans up about 20 yards away it's easy to be somewhat "boob like". At least for a while.

LC

JB: Yes in its purest form I think the 98 is the better mousetrap.There are features it has that distinguish it from the M70 and I think it is somewhat "tougher" in some regards.I like them best when they are set up like a M70, though and really like the new trigger that Alaskan outfit makes for the Mauser.


Lefty: I can understand the boob-like behaviour around brown bears.Thats when your muscle memory had better take over.

Could you explain the specific good points of the Montana action? What exactly are the best points from both worlds?

Push fed Weatherby MK V Ultralight in .300 wby, 200 gr Nosler Partition.

Dead on impact.

10 ft 1 X 28"

Very nice Brown Bear Salmonella! Very potent combo.

I worked for Dave one sheep season in 1980 and have been guiding ever since. I see him from time to time on the Alaska peninsula and although he is active I don't think the AK F&G records will show that he has anywhere near 300 bear kills. He does still use his old 30-06 but is not all that knowledgeable about rifles.

DD: Not JB but from what I know of it,and IIRC the Montana has a Mauser 98-type breach vs the M70,so would handle escaping gas somewhat better.There may be other differences I'm not aware of.

All my hunting is done with a Mauser of one form or another......when I push, they feed.

How many Bear kills does D Lazer have ?

I killed my Brn. Bear with a Weatherby Mark V Push Feed .340 250 Gr. N.P.

10'10" by 28 3/16"

I am going for Grizzly in May with a R700 .300 W.M. Push Feed.

That being said, if you have an appropriate CRF rifle, all things being equal I would use that.

Kind of off the exact topic, but I have noticed that my Sako Finnbear acts like a CRF as the feeding round snaps into the bolt face and is retained quite firmly- cannot be removed without withdrawing the bolt far enough to let the bullet clear the front ring. Kinda gives more credibility to this old action after all! I have run it as fast as I can move the bolt and cannot induce a jam. I would use it on bears for sure.

I have seen two 700s where the extractors failed. I have also seen one tang safety ruger where the extractor broke in the first box of ammo- no doubt flawed from the get-go.

I think that anyone who goes into battle, whether against soldiers or dangerous game, without wringing out their rifle in real-life like situations, deserves whatever hand they are dealt.

Phil,

I just saw your post. I don't know for sure if 300 is correct but I spent a evening at his house going through piles of alblums...40 years worth and there were a lot of dead bears.

You are correct that he certainly is no gun enthsiast but he has indicated he had more problem with winchester and Mausers? than Rugers and Remingtons.

Thanks lefty

yup that looks like a Partition all rite...all thats left is the Partition....a bucher buddy of my (since 77')with cofee cans full of bullets- hates that bullet..i wounder why......BTW...does my 1885 highwall (single shot) count as a push feed????--seems the bear/s die just fine...