http://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2016...n-died-on-rafting-trip-in-arctic-refuge/

Hard to believe these idiot guides and a perfect example of why I am so opposed to rookie rafters doing float hunts. Bad gear, rookie rafters, not enough experienced guides for the circumstances, high water, emotional idiots in charge with bad stuff going down... and they were paying good money for the trip...


When Alaska adventure turns deadly: Guides recount how 2 women died on rafting trip in Arctic refuge
Author: Tegan Hanlon Updated: 3 days ago Published 3 days ago
Last week, two women in their 60s were paddling in a long, blue, inflatable canoe on a remote Alaska river when they fell into the quick current and floated away.

Cheryl Minnehan and Karen Todd did not survive.

Their 12-day guided trip through the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge ended on day eight. Their two guides and the six other paying guests left on a helicopter a day later — June 16, a Thursday —the same day the women's bodies were found downriver.

No one knows exactly what happened. No one saw them fall into the cold water. No one was able to rescue them, even though they tried, said Dan Oberlatz, the 47-year-old guide who owns Alaska Alpine Adventures, the company that ran the 12-day trip.

It all happened so fast.


Traveling to remote Alaska

The trip started June 8.

Oberlatz and another guide, Nick Allen, met their eight guests in Fairbanks. One of the guests was Oberlatz's mother and three were her friends, including 69-year-old Cheryl Minnehan and 67-year-old Karen Todd, both retired.

"This was my second trip I had done with these gals," Oberlatz said in an interview Thursday in Anchorage. "They were fun and funny and absolutely loved to travel."

Alaska Alpine Adventures owner Dan Oberlatz, left, and lead guide Nick Allen were guiding a trip on the Kongakut River last week when two women capsized their 16-foot SOAR inflatable canoe and died. The fatalities were the first for Alaska Alpine Adventures since the company was founded in 1998, said Oberlatz, who noted the victims were family friends. (Erik Hill / Alaska Dispatch News) Alaska Alpine Adventures owner Dan Oberlatz, left, and lead guide Nick Allen were guiding a trip on the Kongakut River last week when two women capsized their 16-foot SOAR inflatable canoe and died. The fatalities were the first for Alaska Alpine Adventures since the company was founded in 1998, said Oberlatz, who noted the victims were family friends. (Erik Hill / Alaska Dispatch News)
He described Todd, of Sparks, Nevada, as a strong, witty and thoughtful woman whose last trip was to Antarctica. Minnehan, of Elk Grove, California, was both kind and tough. "Just a sweetheart, but tough as nails," he said.

The group of 10 had orientation, dinner and then spent the night in the Interior city before flying to the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge on Alaska's North Slope. The refuge spans an area estimated at about the size of South Carolina and, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, gets about 1,000 visitors a year.

Together, Oberlatz's group planned to paddle about 75 miles of the Kongakut River, stopping to camp and hike within the refuge. On Alaska Alpine Adventures' website, the company described the pace of the $5,495-per-person trip as "fairly leisurely."

Before it began, each person signed paperwork acknowledging the trip's risks — the greatest one being death.


Unbridled wilderness

The group got into the water for the first time on June 10, close to an airstrip and a few miles from Drain Creek. It's a popular spot for rafters to launch into the Kongakut River, Oberlatz said.

They had four 16-foot inflatable canoes, which the Anchorage-based adventure company refers to as "rafts." Each held two people. In the first one was guide Allen and a guest.

"People have run the Grand Canyon in these canoes," said Oberlatz, who traveled in the back in a wider oar raft that carried supplies and another guest. He said the inflatable canoes are easy to maneuver, comparable to paddling a two-person kayak.

Inflatable canoes like this one are the boats that Alaska Alpine Adventures uses on their Kongakut River trip. The personal flotation devices are also the same. This photo was made on the Matanuska River. (Photo courtesy Alaska Alpine Adventures) Inflatable canoes like this one are the boats that Alaska Alpine Adventures uses on their Kongakut River trip. The personal flotation devices are also the same. This photo was made on the Matanuska River. (Photo courtesy Alaska Alpine Adventures)
To use one and join the 12-day trip, Oberlatz said, people don't need rafting or canoeing experience. The company provides them with gear and instruction. Before the group paddled into the river on June 10, they had a 90-minute orientation.

"Part of the orientation is, What happens if you go swimming? It's the full run-down," Oberlatz said. And at the end, he said, the guides tell the group, "If you feel uncomfortable, you do not need to get in the boat."

On June 10, everyone got in. They paddled down the river that snakes through tundra, as well as willows and alders. The next day, they went hiking and saw caribou, Dall sheep and a grizzly bear. It was the untouched, unbridled Alaska wilderness, as advertised.

"Everybody is excited to be in the Arctic," Oberlatz said. "And now, of course, we're jelling as a team."

They spent another day paddling. Then they prepared for the rapids.


The rapids

The group went hiking on June 13. And then it rained.

People retreated into their tents. The river rose. A tributary creek they camped near went from crystal-clear water that one could easily cross on foot to a "full-on raging torrent," Oberlatz said.

By the following morning, on June 14, the rain had stopped but the group didn't move. They sat. They waited. They needed the water level to go back down, because their next challenge was maneuvering through about two miles of whitewater — through an area referred to as "the gorge" or "the canyon," the most technical part of the trip.

After a day of waiting, Oberlatz said, he and Allen determined the river looked manageable. It was probably up about 6 inches from when they arrived, before the rain.

"We thought, 'OK, this is a good day to go,' " he said. It was June 15, which would become the trip's final day.

It was the first day that Minnehan and Todd shared an inflatable canoe. Minnehan had previously traveled in the raft with Oberlatz but the women decided to switch spots, Oberlatz said.

They had a safety briefing and around 12:30 p.m., they got into the river.

The first raft left carrying Allen, the other guide and a guest.

Then, two guests left on one raft.

Minnehan and Todd left in raft three.

Two guests paddled away in the fourth raft.

Last were Oberlatz and a guest.

Oberlatz said he watched as the groups ahead of him glided through the first set of rapids, about a mile downriver.

Then came the second set of rapids that followed a left-hand turn in the river.

He couldn't see them.

Neither could Allen, a 34-year-old lead guide.


The fall

Allen had gotten out of his raft farther down the river, after traveling for about 15 minutes. He had found a calm eddy on the left-hand side and directed the guests in so they could regroup.

First came one raft. Together, the four people prepared for a possible rescue. It's protocol, Allen said.

Oberlatz said rapids they had just gone through were about Class III.

American Whitewater describes Class III rapids as intermediate in difficulty, containing "moderate, irregular waves which may be difficult to avoid and which can swamp an open canoe." Strong eddies and powerful currents can be encountered, but injuries while swimming are rare. People can usually rescue themselves if they fall into the water, but group assistance may be required, according to the national membership organization that represents whitewater enthusiasts, river conservationists and local paddling clubs.

Next, Allen saw Minnehan and Todd.

The women weren't in their raft.

They floated downriver wearing their bright orange life jackets as well as dry pants and splash tops, designed to protect them from the chill of the cold water. The water temperature was between 45 and 50 degrees that day and the river was moving between 7 and 8 mph, Oberlatz said.

Allen and a guest had one chance to reach the women with throw bags. They tossed out the rope.

Oberlatz said Todd swam aggressively toward it but Minnehan was too far away. Neither could grab hold of the lifeline.

"They just kept floating away," Oberlatz said. "You get one shot with a throw bag."


A rescue attempt

Allen stayed with the guests as Oberlatz paddled downriver.

He scanned for the two bright orange life jackets but he could see only one. He passed the women's overturned raft, and said he saw nothing. He chased the one life jacket as it floated farther and farther away.

"I don't know which person I was chasing because they were too far downstream at this point," Oberlatz said.

The river made a 90-degree turn to the right.

"I'm powering forward," Oberlatz said. "I'm pushing my oars."

Then a 90-degree turn to the left forced the water to pile up into a cliff. There he saw one of the women trapped in a fast-moving hydraulic.

"She was pinned up against the cliff," he said. "She would be carried under and back up and under and back up, and I started sobbing. At the same time I'm like, 'I have to keep my sh– together. I have to make good decisions.' "

This was one of his mother's friends. This was a friend of the woman still in his raft. She was sobbing too, he said.

Oberlatz said he pulled the raft to the side of the river so he could try to get a better view and figure out the best way to rescue the woman. But just as he did that, she came out of the circulating water, face down and motionless. Carried by the current, the body continued down the river.

"So now I'm just freaking out," Oberlatz said. He repeated to himself, "Dan, you have to make good decisions. You have to make good decisions."


'Don't put anyone else in the river'

Now, Oberlatz had to determine what to do next.

He had started Alaska Alpine Adventures with a friend in 1998 and at one point lived year-round in Alaska's Lake Clark National Park. Now, the company is based out of a South Anchorage office and employs 19 people, a majority of them guides who must be at least trained as wilderness first responders and go through annual company training that, in part, takes place on the Matanuska River. Those who guide rafting trips must also go through swiftwater rescue training, he said.

Before June 15, no one had died on one of the company's trip.

On June 15, Oberlatz was out of his raft on the bank of the Kongakut River and had just watched a guest's body wash downriver. A bluff between him and Allen severed their radio connection, he said. He ran about 100 yards to the top and told Allen, "Don't put anyone else in the river."

He said he ran back to the raft, got on the satellite phone and called the Anchorage office.

They needed help.


Eight rescued

Oberlatz ran downriver with his binoculars, looking for the other orange life jacket. He saw nothing.

"We don't know whether anyone could have survived but our hopes are diminishing and we're waiting on a rescue," he said. He went back to the group.

The eight people remaining eventually gathered together, hiking toward each other over land. They set up a large tarp. They spent the night there. They waited for someone — anyone — to come.

"We started grieving under that tarp," Oberlatz said.


Rescue mission trouble

Away from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, a rescue mission was underway and it was not without hiccups.

The North Slope Borough received a report of the capsized raft on the Kongakut River, about 75 miles south of Kaktovik and more than 350 miles east of Barrow, shortly before 2 p.m. on June 15, said John Boyle, a borough spokesman.

Around 2:30 p.m., the borough requested additional help from the Alaska Rescue Coordination Center on Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson in Anchorage, said Alaska National Guard spokeswoman Lt. Col. Candis Olmstead.

The center requested support from the Alaska Air National Guard. But the alert crew at Eielson Air Force Base in Fairbanks was nearing the end of a 14-hour shift; under aviation regulations, Olmstead said, they could not fly again until 5 a.m. the next day.

A crew from Anchorage was sent to Eielson and left from there in a helicopter. But a crew member on that flight had a medical emergency and they had to turn back to Fairbanks, Olmstead said.

Oberlatz, Allen and the six guests were eventually picked up by a North Slope Borough helicopter at about 4 a.m. on June 16. They left behind almost everything they had. They were flown to Deadhorse and later Fairbanks, splitting up to head home, Oberlatz said.

Minnehan's and Todd's bodies were recovered around 9:45 a.m. that morning by the Eielson-based Guard crew, who had left once they could fly. The crew found the women about 2 miles apart and several miles downriver from the rapids.

On Thursday, Oberlatz said he continues to waver between sobbing and "full-on panic attacks." Oberlatz said he wants to do right by the families. He said the company plans to review the incident and see if they could have done anything better.

As the owner of an adventure company, he said, he must toe the line between risk and accommodating people who want to see untouched Alaska, who want to "experience it in the most honest and real of ways."

"That's my passion. It's why we started our business," he said. "It's what keeps me coming back."

Reporter Chris Klint contributed to this story.

Anything better?

How about having boats stable enough for rookies in whitewater?

How about ensuring at least one guide per boat... meaning a bigger boat to hold four.

How about maintaining contact all the way through the run?

How about having a clue what six extra inches does to whitewater?

Life in Alaska comes with risks. Stop being so judgmental until you have been in the same situation. If these guys have been doing these type of trips for almost 20 years I will bet they made solid decisions for their group.

I feel for the loss of the paddlers. The SOAR 16 foot Canoe is very stable and handles whitewater well. I own 2 of these and have been in these situations a few times and its easy to second guess from the comfort of your home!

Horseshit! If you read the article and want to defend the guides you have your head farther up your azz than I ever dreamed even you were capable of.

Stringing out 4 boats so far in whitewater that you cannot see them go down suggests either the water was way too big for rookies to run or the group was spread out way too much. And standing on shore with a toss line that could at best save one person and being too anchored to give chase?????

You are a frigging moron as a rafter if you find that proper. They used gear suitable for reasonably skilled rafters, not rookies! For crying out loud, what would you do if a swimmer passed you and you could not catch her for miles????

Oh yeah, care to compare sea time, rafting time, whitewater canoe racing time, or damn near anything else to do with boats like USCG licenses and such? Betting you have sent more than a few folks down a river that should never have been there...

I believe in personal accountability and making sure everyone I am responsible for knows exactly what is expected of them. Hard to send a couple female senior citizens down a rapids in one narrow canoe and have no chance to haul them out of water and consider yourself to have done the right thing.

They deserve to pay dearly...

No you need to stop being a dick....$hit happens


By the way...did I question anything about your ability? Easy to second guess.

I have more time on the water than you can begin to imagine... the fact you rent gear to the unsuspecting is telling in your responses. I would bet good money your real rafting experience is far stronger to renting gear than running it.

Second guessing without experience is one thing... being there is entirely different and having been through a large number of whitewater emergencies tells me they screwed up big time and you do not have a clue where...

I can't imagine sending elderly inexperienced people down remote class III rapids in an inflatable canoe. At best it's irresponsible, at worst criminally negligent.

It's not too tough to figure out where things went wrong on google earth. Those two turns would take some pulling to get around. I'm no river expert, but I do own a pro pioneer (the Soar 16's fatter twin) and did sleep at a holiday inn last night. I've also paddled on a 14' otter bailer with a frame, and a 13' bucket boat with frame. I know enough to say that:

1. Oar saddles (such as those on a S16 or PP) don't allow you to pull nearly as hard as a frame (but saddles are way better than paddles - I have plenty of experience in the PP running heavily loaded and alone on small-ish busy rocky fast water with a paddle, and typical result is several close calls with breaking the paddle...).

2. The SOAR boats are remarkably stable, but infinitely less so than a round boat of similar or larger size. Big haystacks aren't much fun in a PP, having been on some during some upper Chitina misadventures...Stability gets better with a load, which gets the floor fully submerged and puts waterline up the side tubes for a wider footprint.

3. Weak people with no experience have no business running busy, fast water, particularly in a raft with no frame. If you aren't a good water reader, you better be able to pull hard to find the late line through and orient the boat and get yourself out of trouble. Problem is, only experience on the oars allows you to both read water and skillfully pull hard. The two big turns mentioned in the story would be trouble for a poorly-manned round boat, let alone a PP or S16.

4. There's no good way to build experience besides running a raft. I'd pulled on lots of oars in a rowboat, but my first significant time on a river had me in a PP on the upper Chitina. Not optimal, and not the way to do things in hindsight. Would not have been fun if I was brand new to running oars.

Absolutely agree with every point you make!

The only thing I think you left out, which is huge IME&O, is the heavy rain and running while the river was still quite high.

Yup!

Don't see much lateral stability in a craft like that even if they were running empty. Side ways and hit a bump in current, and it's going over or folding. Letting clients (even experienced ones) get out of sight is a no no. Their insurance company will pay big time.

Mostly I do hard boats, but about 20% of my time has been with rafts of 14 ft or larger and always with a frame. For many years I led scouts on 90+ mile trips up through class 4's. I've decided I'm happy with all of my stuff and don't do that anymore.

it's all good, till it isn't.


I know folks have chastised Art for his warnings about folks running rivers here with little to no experience floating and paddling. Some have even come back to post pix of their successful ventures. And it's all good, until it isn't.

We run catarafts or double enders. Pard floated the Kongakut with 2 elderly gents, he manned the oars.

the point about being able to pull harder against a frame versus saddles is pertinent ime.

lots of guys hunt in jeans and live to tell about it, but flip over, lose your raft and gear and have to survive in the wet and cold with what you have in your pockets will give you and idea why "cotton kills" is a popular refrain here.

even without the rain, I'd have to question the wisdom of letting older folks with little to no experience running the Kongakut. Don't believe I'd be inclined to do so.

had the river stayed low or moderate, it might have all been good,

as it turned out, it wasn't

"Class III:

Rapids with high, irregular waves. Narrow passages that often require precise maneuvering."

Just the standard description of typical Class III water combined with the long, narrow boats and two inexperienced elderly women should be enough to let anyone realize how bad the idea was...

Especially that them gals were the guide's mother's friends.

Sorry, Mom. My bad.

Come on Sitka, you have every reason to pissed at several events that took place that day. Bottom line is the guides lost control at the top and never regained it. Try to lighten up on the guides. I have a great friend that had a fatality on her boat, after seeing what she went thru I can tell you that they have enough on there shoulders.

We have to remember where we started. Pushing rubber is fun but sleeping in a tent and putting on wet river gear on every day gets old. $55 a trip doesn't do well for the 401K side so most people I worked with were college kids just wanting to get paid to play. Most were happy to have saved enough cash to get home.

A tight run Blue Angles style would have saved the trip and 2 lives. But at the same time, I know for a fact that when you have custies on the stick and fast water it's impossible to keep it tight. Their hesitation spread things out quick.

You oar frame guys can have that crap. I can get by on a good class 1 -2 fishing trip but those things scare the hell out of me in whitewater. It's a art form like tele skiing

In my best John McEnroe.............

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!

This is precisely why I have only done one float trip in all the time I've been up here.
We don't raft anything where I'm from and every time I've been in a raft I've felt completely out of control and helpless. Not that a person who knows what they're doing isn't in control, but I don't know what I'm doing. Water is cold and drowny and I don't care to be in it.

I don't have as much experience as some here, but it never ceases to amaze me when I hear of someone planning a remote trip and not familiar with terms such as "ferry angle" and "cross ferrying"

I've run several remote rivers, the problem is you're out there long enough for weather patterns to change drastically and you're a long ways from any help other than what you can provide for yourself.

took my kids on the Chena one year, bluebird night when we got started, rains came and river raised 6 ft. overnight.

big ole trees floating by and water moving fast


was glad to get them off the river.

I feel for the guides, truly do, helluva thing to lose a client on your watch.


still wouldn't put two grandmas in an inflatable canoe to run the Kongakut, the Sheenjek or the Tickhik.

Everyone of those rivers was a work out at points along the way.

The way I read it, they weren't even able to make it to the right angle bends while still in the boat...

Dry pants and splash jackets? In remote AK. With a combined air/water temp under 100 degrees? What do you want to bet that exposure is a contributing factor in at least one of their deaths? The woman that was unable to move towards the single throwbag.

It sounds like the outfitter was 20 years lucky...

Old saying here: Hell of a difference between 20 ears of experience and one year of experience 20 times...



I agree completely...

I agree completely...

I have caught schit from many for saying exactly what you just said... slightly less drowny, but the same idea. I have years of experience in whitewater canoes and quite a bit in rafts and every part of the descriptions says YGBFKM!

And you bring in another point with no answer... Coasties say the number one killer in boats is lack of local knowledge... I would be birddogging the weather and river flow numbers non-stop before that kind of trip. Finding a 6" rise in water would make me sit until things leveled out... they only waited until it came back to +6".

Saddled with schit gear for the conditions and staff I doubt seriously that a Blue Angles run was possible.

I see no reason to lighten up on the guides because there are so many freaking obvious points that scream "CLUELESS!!!!!".

At no point did I say that's where they fell in. The big cliff pileup at the second bend is where the one lady got stuck and ragdolled and drowned per the article. Up from that is a mile or two of whitewater per satellite, presumably where they wrecked.

My point was - obstacles like that require that one is able to identify the line and pull hard.

Quote: "Before [the trip] began, each person signed paperwork acknowledging the trip's risks — the greatest one being death."

You guys think that will get them off the hook?

67 and 69 Y.O. women in the same boat? As Art says: YGBFKM

If they do end up in a legal fight I bet the defendants' attorney will wish they had kept their mouths shut...

Sounds a whole lot like the clusters for Mt Everest these days.

One big problem.

The desire for as much money as one can make, damn the torpedoes... well one torpedo got through...

I'd not have an issue if was all done correctly and something happened, but done correctly likely nothing would have happened.

Carolyn and I really want to do some floats once we get up there... I don't konw that it will be safe but sure hope we can find some calmer runs just to have the experiences.

Nope, because it reads like negligence to me.

rost495:
I'd not be one to discourage you in anyway. Float trips are a true marvel as one feels like he's in his own world. There is a learning curve, however, and one for sure should begin on the gentle side. Some experienced company is a great asset, especially if they have local knowledge and used similar craft.

There are great books covering many of our lower 48 rivers listing precise details all the way down to which clump of grass one should align with. One should still be constantly aware though, as events create new rapids, trees fall, and massive boulders move. About the same as any busy freeway.

Change is a serious issue with many of the far north streams given their braided nature and extreme variation in seasonal flows. Routes can shift throughout the season and for sure between years.

To quote the famous Johnny Cochran; "if in doubt - get out and scout."

Have a good one,

I run our local river all the time, mostly in an airboat. I understand a bit about currents and such, and what reading the calm water indicates the water is doing, or is under the water etc.... Don't own a raft here though, maybe should but then we'd have to get it to AK after that....

I am hoping to get some reading in on braids and the like, to figure things out, we walk around out on the ... dang wanted to say Salcha but thats not right, on the braids in teh fall when its clearing up and learn a bit just by wondering around.

I've generally never been one to push hard, rather pull back and weigh out choices before going, as sometimes my spur of the moment choices are not the best.

Good advice. Learning comes with a curve, we sure won't do the blackwater rapids first, hopefully never, LOL

Release forms are seldom worth the paper they are printed on.

It's one thing if the guides were on the boat with them, did everything they could and things just got out of control.

But when the guides noted that the water was higher than normal, they send the two elderly ladies down by themselves and don't even have them in sight, it should be no problem for a lawyer getting a jury to find the guides negligent.

One could argue for criminal negligence.

Whoops - my bad. I interpreted your focus on the turns incorrectly.

And yeah, I continue to lightly bump into the wall at one local rapid, no matter if captaining a paddle boat or rowing. Doesn't matter how hard I/we're pulling either. One of these days I'll get it sussed.

P.S. Of course I just took a peek on Youtube, and apparently the right side I thought was too bony to use, isn't. Sonofagun....




Jeff,

I suggest you get your initial paddling/rowing whitewater rafting experience down in the lower 48 where it's nowhere near as remote, the water itself may be a LOT warmer (southern states) and for sure it's going to be a lot less expensive for training.

gonna be much harder down here, but I'll put it on the list. No whitewater that I"m aware of anywhere close, but maybe just running the Colorado here out the back door would be better than none at all.

When we ran the Sheenjek it was a pretty busy time at the oars

Lots of hard turns, shallow water, sweepers, bfr's etc

On that trip I had a pard on my boat a local doc

When we finally got to the lower river on an easy stretch he offered to take the oars to give me a break

Will never forget his incredulous response to how "hard" it was to keep the boat in the channel & not get hung up on the shallows

It's not rocket science, but it takes some knowledge of boating & often sheer muscle & energy to keep from winding up in a bad place in heavy water

Some knowledge of how boats move across the water, reading current & channels & setting up beforehand so you're not working against the teeth of the current is extremely helpful but even with said knowledge you often need muscle mass & energy to pull it off

Plus it never ceases to amaze me how an increase in water volume can make things harder

Rafting nor canoeing is not my thing, although I do like to canoe is placid or calm waters. Through the years I have seen in the water canoes that have been folded in half by the water when getting caught mid point by a rock or even a tree trunk.

That happened to an aluminum boat in Chitina. Something happened to the motor, and the boat ended by one of the bridge's pillars where it got caught and folded in half by the water. The occupants were lucky to swim to the shore.

Always remember it is easy to throw stones at these guys as we second guess what they should have done. Life up here is either spent reading about adventure or doing it. Preparation is key to a successful trip regardless of whether it's a remote float or a sno-go trip.

Bottom line is $hit happens even when we are 100% prepared for the worst. Any of us who think risk is preventable most likely has never been in these type of situations.

I give the guides the benefit of the doubt unless you have some inside information.

More Wag and less Bark

Only an idiot like you could fail to see the obvious failure points.

Failing to see them in hindsight means you are clueless on the water...

fixed it for you, you must have not read many of Walt's posts. if he isn't he does a dang good imitation of it.

.


The only thing I am clueless to is how an arrogant A$$ like yourself can hold yourself so high and mighty.

We you there? Do you have another info other than what was in Alaska Dispatch. Have you ever #^cked up a decision? If you answered no, no and Yes than shut up! If you answered Yes, Yes, No than enlighten up with your pearls of wisdom.

Are there mirrors in your shack of a home? If the answer is yes take 2 mins. to look into that mirror just once a day and describe your holiness for us otherwise say less. If you have nothing good to say than don't say anything at all...That was my mom back in 2nd grade. You could learn a lot from a mom.

If you are the best example your mother has, I doubt anyone could learn anything worthwhile from her...

hypocrite much Walt? '

let's see if we've got this straight


you continually show up on a conservative website, bashing the ideals of conservatism and conservative candidates, with hardly ever mentioning any of the problems with the other side of the aisle.


you do so because you know you'll get attention and reaction and you're safely ensconced behind a keyboard.

you call folks here, clowns, stupid, old men


and now you're saying yo momma always told you if you don't have anything nice to say STFU?

Basic issue Witless has is his business interest... do not badmouth rafters because it might impact his revenue...

I just wonder how many of his customers know how adamantly anti-firearms he is...

= dangerous.

#stupidwalt

You could learn a lot from a mom.

.

Thanks for asking but my mom dies of cancer 5 years ago at Christmas.

you call folks here, clowns, stupid, old men

I make fun of the political situation and normally on the GOP side but I think you would be hard pressed to find any posts where I swear at members and I don't think I have used the term "Stupid" but Old Man all of the time.

Whole point is/was don't gang up on the outfitter behind his back, don't be a dick. Call the guy up and let him know to his face and show a little respect. I don't get my feelings hurt by you clowns so if you feel better keep up the good work.

After bringing your mother up as part of an argument you lose all access to pity, especially five years after her demise.

Walt
Very special of you to come into "the room" kicking up dust and making noise knowing you will be starting arguments and then try to condemn those that counter your attacks.

The butthurt written all over your last few posts is really precious and shows that you are being repaid internally for being a dick.

But worse is suggesting anyone call the guide and tell him how he screwed up... and you confuse that with respect.

You sure do have a lot of strange definitions for fairly common words.

The collective Alaskan 24 Hr. Campfire community will raise money for Walt to do an exploration raft trip down the McClaren River and then down the Susitna River. He can take one of his 14 ft rafts and a frame from a put in at the McClaren River and float down the Susitna river. Water levels will be pretty right at the end of next week.

I am speaking for all of us but the time is right.

I'll spring for a roll of duct tape for his emergency kit...

Sounds reasonable. He has more experience than the two old gals, and will be in a raft rather than a canoe. So the tougher rapids are pretty much compensated for. I think he's good to go.

And well, life up there is hard. So should bad things happen, it's best not to be too critical afterwards, not knowing every minute detail and all...

Sounds like the ladies went to the end of the world looking for adventure and found it. Not sure why the guides didn't scout the rapids or run em with a guest, then hike back and get more of the others as they could.
Sad story.

Never mentioned swearing, you think that gives you a pass for

"Don't be a dick"

As far as let him know ftf??? That's rich coming from you, you've been invited by mor than a few members to meet ftf after some of your inflammatory posts & your Schlick is then to send a pm doing your Rodney King impersonation

Already said I feel for the guides & I do, but it seems pertinent to me when life is lost to examine facts as they are presented & discuss what went wrong & how to prevent similar mishaps

So is it your opinion from the facts we have the guides did nothing wrong?

You think it's ok to put two geriatric gals on an inflatable & send them down the river during high water as long as their check clears?

What a sanctimonious hypocritical pos you are Walt?


Ain't nobody here that can do anything to the guides they've done it to themselves already, all we can do is learn from their mistakes.

As I mentioned early on in this thread arts been chided on more than one occasion about the potential pitfalls of remote rafting or canoeing by those with little experience . Some folks felt like he was overblown in his description of the potential calamity.

No one was ganging up on the guides, just guys with some actual experience floating discussing what happened & why

I realize this post is a waste on you, you've been called out here over and over for your hypocrisy & inflammatory nature

But perhaps it's helpful to folks who don't know your body of work why a guy like kaboku68, one of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet would desire to send you down the river

Now run along and go rent another raft

No one was ganging up on the guides


.

Are you sure?

And yes I will run out now and rent another raft. business is good this year and I will hold a nice Riken 14 footer for your trip. Spend a little time on the river and life does not look so bad! To many of you guys get a lot of eye strain from too many hours spent staring at the wildest of Alaska through your computer screen.

See ya on the water!

Just one question with a yes:no answer...

Given the option of renting a raft to two inexperienced elderly women (67 and 69 years old to be specific) and knowing the water on the river they were rafting was a little high. And given the party they were rafting with included two very experienced guides, a total of eight others with the guides, and rafts as described in the story for the rest.

Would you rent them that particular model of inflatable canoe?

Easy question, just two or three letters will answer it.

Hmmm! Crickets...

Especially considering they are your mother's friends.

Simple answer...I don't know their situation and it was guided...

Now my answer. I get lots of requests to rent rafts for rivers like the Klutina and Tonsina & my standard answer is I have to assume that you do not the necessary experience to operate safely on those rivers so no. I often times rent to people whom I know have the experience so to them I say YES. Keep in mind I run a rental service just Like Alaska Raft & Kayak. We have a disclaimer and the renter is responsible for the safe return of the gear and themselves. See I am a true businessman who believes in personal responsibility. If I was running a guided operation it would be different but ....I believe in personal responsibility. Makes me sound a bit like a conservative, I better be careful!


So lets throw it back you way big shooter: Lets say you own "Dickish Motors" in Mountain View and a old lady wants to buy that sweet "72" Vett on your lot. Do you not sell it to her knowing it has a 454 under the hood and she might not be able to handle it on the Glenn when she heads back home in Eagle Rive or do you act like a responsible businessman who believes in personal responsibility?

Right now you are reaching for your bucket of $hi! you have under your computer and you are going to throw another childish attack my way...


You are a Campfire Oracle with 28383 posts and you live in a city of 450,000 happy folks. I guessing you haven't seen Alaska ( other than from your computer) in a long while. Put the mouse down and go have an adventure dude! If you need a raft or a SOAR come on out and I will help you put it on the river. Have some fun today! Get out of your house and go visit Alaska!

so now you want to get in a "who's spent more time in the outdoors in AK" wiener measuring contest?


with Art?


your stupidity really knows no bounds


for me personally I spend more time in a jet boat these days, and made it clear about how much floating I've done.

more than most, not as much as some and certainly not as much as I'd like


show us the hair on your chest uncle Waltie, you're the only real outdoorsman amongst us, according to you.


my lord but you're pathetic

Did not think you had the stones to answer, thanks for proving it.

Your reading comprehension skills are a bit weak!

I think Art a bit long in the tooth. He has seen better days if that helps. I will bet back in the 60's and 70's Art tore it up. I should show more respect to our elders so I apologies Art.

Please take your meds sir...We cannot afford to loose someone with all your experience.

And still no answer...

Says the Quaalude-i-Dude.... ....and it ain’t like you just missed a couple details in your ‘texting’ recently........wow!

(Try stick with the two or three letter answer options your were given. Hint: one is “yes”, the other, “no”. )

TheKid;
Good evening to you sir, hopefully this finds you well.

I've read the thread through now and felt that you deserved a sincere tip of the hat for knowing your personal limitations and not tempting fate in order to prove something.

Like you, I find water "cold and drowny" and while I don't mind canoeing on still, small water I'm always wearing a good PFD. As I told a cousin of mine once, "I ride a rough horse better than a smooth boat any day"

Our eldest daughter is a wee bit of an adventuresome soul and one year she talked our family into going whitewater rafting on the Clearwater here in BC.

We do have a pretty regulated system up here as to who can guide, etc and there was an excellent guide in every boat who first clearly communicated what was going to happen and what we had to do when told to.

It was only a couple hours too - so no surprises with changing water levels.

All that taken into account, I'd fully agree with your assessment of feeling completely out of control.

We didn't lose anyone out of our raft, but another raft actually had a chap bounce out - he was okay but a tad shaken up when they fished him out.

Anyway my heart goes out to the families of the folks who died for sure.

If it's all the same though, I'll just hike in and out anymore....

All the best to you folks this summer sir and thanks again for the honest post.

Dwayne

Is Walt a teacher?

I don't know who made the least responsible decision, the outfitters or the septegenerian rafters. What a tragedy. Once whitewater started becoming painful....

Those who can't, teach...

They were only 67 and 69, so not quite septuagenarians.

sexagenarians

Amazing the lengths people will go to get away from you.

Not really, he's an azzhole!

You guys are way too wrapped up in this.... Lighten up.

Decisions matter... bad more than good. Or vice-versa..

Sometimes there is a fine line between a miscalculation and a bad decision. They do tend to pile up, however...

That's how I got Sneer- my 18 foot flat-bottom. It wasn't exactly flat when we welded it back up, so the right front corner has a lift to it. It still floats tho, mostly, and the recently installed cheap bilge pump with manual toggle switch, works really great (leaky rivets, mostly. I think...)

Anyway, way it happened is I decided to shore at a backwater just upstream of a railroad trestle, on a 90 degree rock-wall turn and line it through. Should have chosen the lee side, as I mis-judged the force of the current, missed the backwater, and went head on into the rock rip-rap wall. It ain't easy to strain an 18 foot boat through a 12 foot trestle support span sideways, but we managed. Pinned in the boat as it hung up/went under by the 1" thick-wall lift pipe handle, I bent it getting out. Seemed not all that difficult at the time.

The Lab retrieved the handiest? piece of flotsam gear as we floated free, and took it ashore. It was the lunch, so he ate it. Survival situation, don'tcha know?

That was his story, anyway.

Not all employed by the educational system and/or school district are capable of "teaching".

I hope you taught math. You need to not get so worked up because your grammar is bleeding. Many of us on this forum have spent a lot of time on the water. I learned to work oars as a guide under Jerry Jacques for Denali Raft Adventures and spent many, many hours guiding clients who were older and inexperienced. I would never let a paddle crew out of my sight. I quickly became the office manager (They didn't trust anybody else with the money) and would work between the owners. I advised one of the owners(Jim) not to hire a manish female with a flattop. She just wasn't up to the experience or skill level taking a load of tourists through the lower canyon of the Nenana River(class IV). I ended up having to make the calls to the family of a 58 year old woman who drowned when she got bounced out of raft on boxcar when the guide took the wrong line. Its not nice. I also had to fire the guide for a series of safety problems in her guiding that followed the accident. I have had some bad experiences with rivers and know that things can get messed up quickly. It is simply inexcusable for most of us to test fate in that fashion especially with other peoples lives.

So, is it safe to say, based on your experience you would not put two inexperienced female sexagenarians (specifically 67 and 69 years old) together in an inflatable canoe in Class III water knowing the river was running high?

I would not let the clients travel down the river without a guide in the boat. The guides should lose their concessionaire's license from ANWR and their business license from the state.

I agree there should absolutely been a guide in every boat. I will back off the penalty part as circumstances weigh heavily there. Criminal through civil potentials are real IMO.