John,

For some reason, I can still remember an old American Hunter article you wrote in the 90’s about elk cartridges.

I think you said something to the effect of “the 30-06 is probably the best everyman’s elk cartridge.”

Just wondering, with all of the advances in bullets, is that still your opinion?

The .30-06 is still a good choice, but smaller cartridges work very well with the right bullets. Have seen elk killed neatly with chest shots in cartridges from the .22-250 up.

Must admit that I get a little weary of the constant elk-cartridge debates here and elsewhere. I grew up in Montana when the majority of elk hunters used the .30-06, partly because there were so many "affordable" military-surplus 1903 Springfields were still available. Nosler Partitions were the only controlled-expansion bullet available back then, but had to be handloaded--unless you owned a Weatherby, since they started putting Partitions in the factory loads in the early 1960s.

Consequently most hunters used 180-grain .30-06 factory loads, and they worked--partly because back then Remington still made the original, heavy-sidewall Core-Lokts. Did know one guy who used 220-grain bullets, but he hunted heavy timber.

I guess maybe I should ask another way:

If you were writing that article today, would you change anything?

I'd have to haul it out of my piles of magazines and read it again--if a copy is still around. Wrote it about 4-5 computers ago, so it would be impossible to find otherwise. All I can say without doing that is there's a much wider variety of very fine elk bullets for the .30-06 today.

As I've patiently tried to explain to my brother and his circle of elk hunting devotees for at least the last 10 years when they respond "You use WHAT on elk?"

I tell them to start first at the bullet and then work backwards towards how it's delivered.

I have never shot a a elk but if I were to hunt them my Rem 700, 3006 is the gun/ caliber I would use. I see so many debates and endless time taken up on this subject. So, here's my 2 cents. 3006 would be my choice, Decision made, with that part done I would practice a lot, shooting positions I would use in the field, prone sitting, standing kneeling. find an acceptably accurate load / with an decent bullet and know my drops out to 400 yards. I would hunt hard and not worry about equipment and what the other guys are shooting. Last I would use all of that extra time addressing the many other issues in my life that are in need of thought and possibly resolution!

Didn’t Elmer once recommend nothing less than a 375 for elk?
Before modern bullets and powders
http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_09_Big_Game_Bullets.pdf

I have taken elk with .308 and .338 and both worked fine.

Your link don't work. Elmer died in 1984 long before most of today's premium wonder bullets. If he can be faulted it would from his lack of use with Nosler Partitions. His famous quote on minimums was 250 grains .338 dia at 2500 fps or more. No body offered premium bullets in loaded ammo way back then except Weatherby in Weatherby ammo . 98% of the public just bought what they could get where ammo was for sale. Criticisms based on 20/20 hindsight aren't worth repeating. ..mb

The link is working for me.
Believe me my above post was more about history then modern times.
It’s a good story by Elmer and elk. Hope you can get it to work.

Got it to work. I think I have that issue of Guns and Ammo. You need to find a copy of "Hell, I was there" it's hard to put down..mb

I read that book a long time ago. And I had both of Elmer’s Gun Notes books. I sold them, wish I wouldn’t have now.
Would like to read them again. I forgot most of what I read by now. That’s how I remember Elmer’s story on the 375. I had to google it since I didn’t have any of the books anymore.

I think the evolution of a lot of equipment I. E. 4 wheelers, electric saws all’s, tires, gps, rangefinders, clothing etc etc plus the expansion of elk herds into farmland had a little more do due with caliber selection ; as compared to bullet construction improvements.

Talking to real old timers about hunting the mountains of Idaho is really interesting.

And yet we still use cup core bullets on elk, and even more frail ones. But everyone else could do it but Elmer, or only Elmer could do it right, depends on how much you cared about his opinion.

Elmer was very aware of Nosler Partitions, and mentioned them in his writings. Am sure that, like many gun writers back then, John Nosler was happy to supply him.

Believe I have read all his books, including some rare ones, often more than once, but could be mistaken.

There are two schools of thought on why Elmer kept insisting on using heavy, .33+ caliber bullets even for "big mule deer," long after Partitions appeared. One is that by then he knew some of his popularity was due to his bigger cartridge/bullet attitude. (Have also heard a claim from a couple of Idaho residents that he actually used the .30-06 with 180-grain Partitions for a lot of his big game hunting. But neither could claim personal knowledge of this. Instead it was "I heard somebody say....")

One thing I do know for sure is that Elmer would have been a LOT better off with 180 Partitions from a .30-06 than the 300-grain Kynoch bullets he used on his first safari, in his .333 OKH (his "light" rifle). He reported on the Kynochs in his book SAFARI, published by a friend and admirer. He used both soft-noses and solids--and the thin-jacketed soft-noses sometimes wouldn't even exit a Thompson gazelle, about as large as a big coyote. Consequently he used solids for most of the safari, which don't kill nearly as well as good expanding bullets. Sometimes elk-sized plains animals went a half-mile before falling. He then reported in his book that all African plains game is "as tough as an old gum boot," a myth that still circulates today, especially among Americans planning a plains-game safari, at least partly due to Elmer.

He could have saved himself a lot of trouble (and spouted less BS) if he'd used a .30-06 with 180 Partitions. I know this from having killed quite a bit of African plains game with that combination. Why didn't he, since Partitions has been around for a decade when he went on that safari?

Stubborn, set in his old ways?

I always enjoyed reading Elmer.

In the above referenced Gun Notes, it seems that he based his post-war opinions on pre-war data. In 1982 he is citing hunts from 1917; using 1923 National Match ammo; or Western Tool and Copper Works bullets. Perhaps as JB suggested, he was capitalizing on his big bullet/cartridge reputation.

Our sport has benefited greatly from technology. Imagine today trying to discount the use of LRF, high quality optics, or modern hunting clothing based on what we used in 1960?

405wcf

I am still in favor of Elmer. He was one outstanding shot. He contributed greatly to the shooting world. He has his opinions and stuck too them. He did most of his hunting on his own. He didn't have his hunts paid for by a magazine. I admired him greatly. Not to say I agree with all that he said. But he was an outstanding gun man. I doubt we ever see his like again.

I agree--up to a certain point--which is why I've owned all his books (have spent up to $300 on some older ones) and reread them a lot. But he did have some of his hunts paid for.,if not by magazines by outfitters who wanted him to publicize their operations--along with Guns & Ammo. His two African safaris were subsidized considerably, as were some other North American hunts later in his career. But he worked his ass off to get to that point, as have most gun/hunting writers.

He also experimented more with rifles (and shotguns and handguns) more than most hunting/gun writers of the day. He was the first I read who use a multiple-reticle scope both as an approximate rangefinder and long-range aiming point on big game.

"The 30/06 is never a bad choice"------Who said that? He's still correct. Bob

That's exactly what I (attempt) to tell them too........

Not to muddy the water, but here's one from way back. Keep reading--he gets around to elk and the 30-06 eventually:



I miss Allen Day.


Okie John

I've been elk hunting for 21 years and have been fortunate enough to kill my fair share of elk. With everything from a bow to 300 win mag. My last five elk with a rifle until this years bull were killed with a Kimber Montana 308 with a 165 accubond which has never required a follow up shot. This year I used a 30-06 in a Kimber Ascent with a 165 Accubond to take my bull. I would have used the Montana but my 12 year old son carried it and used it to take his first elk.
I think with the advancements in bullets over the years it has made a 308 a formable rival to the 30-06 with a little over 100 fps between the two. I've taken a few mule deer with a 30-06 as well and under 500 yards they are hard to beat, easy to load for and easy to find ammo for (in most years) at stores if you were ever in a pinch. But the same thing could be said for the 308 win I guess. If you told me to pick one between the two it would be hard for me to do. As for the magnum calibers I know the are elk medicine for sure but I find them to carry too heavy for me since I tend to put a lot of mile in during elk season. I always remembered that ounces makes pounds and over 10-12 miles a day makes tons.

I've got one of great uncle Elmer's 30-06's.

I've killed elk with a 257Wby/100TSX, 270Win/140TSX and 150 ABLR, and 300WinMag w/200 Partitions and 200TSX's.

I've seen elk killed while I was sitting right next to the shooter with 338Win/210 Partitions and 210 TTSX, 7Rem Mag/160 Partitions, and 280AI 150TTSX.

I'll pay the weight and recoil penalty and continue to carry my 300Win for elk.

I always thought thought was my saying. I don't remember ever reading it anywhere, but at age 60 I'm smart enough not to trust my memory, and John certainly could have penned it (and probably did)! As they say when it comes to ideas, "amateurs borrow, professional's steal."

I do know for a fact, "cartridges are more alike than different" is my original. And on that thought, I've taken elk with the 270 Win, 7-08, 308, 30-06, 300 WSM, and 338 WM, and seen elk taken with many more.They all kill well, but the bigger stuff is no longer fun to me. I've hung my hat on the 6.5 CM, 270, and 308 for any and all future elk hunting (or any hunting).

How cool is that?

I’m sure it’s still a perfectly adequate pest rifle…

How is the 6.5 CM holding up compared to your old standby 308?


Okie John

John, it will likely never displace it. I just really love the now 70 year old 308!

What happened to the 7mm-08?

I've played with 3 different 7-08's, and just can't love the cartridge - all have gone down the road. I'm limiting whatever I own to what I can get abundant, quality factory ammo for. The 6.5 CM, 308, and 270 all meet that requirement.

Have written about some of this before in various places, but the Montana hunter I knew who may have killed more elk than any of my other friends used the .30-06--one which would be considered pitiful today. It was a South American military Mauser in .30-06 (can't remember which country now, but it might have been Argentina), which he purchased while in high school for something like $25, back when such "war surplus" rifles were abundant and cheap. The stock had been cut down ("sporterized") and he never used anything except the military open sights.

However, he did handload--and was probably the only handloader I ever knew who actually saved money. He had a simple single-stage press, and bought whatever 180-grain bullets were cheapest at the local sporting goods store--except for Winchester Silvertips, which he hated. Of course they were all cup-and-core, and he used the "middle load" of IMR 4320 in the Speer manual, which probably got 2600 fps or a little more. He never owned a chronograph (or scope), but no matter the brand the bullets landed a little above the Mauser's front sight at 100 yards, and penetrated fine.

He was an excellent game shot. I not only hunted elk with him, but deer. We both lived in a small town in northeastern Montana, and in the prairie country surrounding it the typical technique of the day was to "push" brushy coulees to jump deer, sometimes tossing rocks into the thicker brush, and primarily shot them on the run. In that country most were whitetails, with a few muleys in the rougher country. I cannot remember him missing a running deer (though he had to, some time or other), and witnessed him dropping them out to 150-200 yards. He killed a lot of deer, because he was married to one of the enrolled tribal members of the Fort Peck Reservation (as was I at the time), and so legally had the same hunting rights. We both had large "extended" families, so helped feed them as well.

He hunted elk at the opposite end of Montana, in the steep mountains along the Idaho Panhandle, near a small town where one of his sisters lived, camping in the same drainage every year. He started hunting back when if one of the party got into a herd, they'd fill as many tags as possible. Quite a few were big bulls, but he also killed a lot of cows--often when somebody else had a permit. When I hunted with him, during the first week of the season either sex was legal, so that's when he and his family went hunting, usually before any snow had fallen. I also cannot remember him not killing an elk during that week.

By then he was in his 40's, and had been hunting elk there since his teens. I would guess his elk total was over 100, along with several hundred deer, but he never kept track.

Is it in as new condition?

I am friends with an older gentleman , that lived in prime elk habitat for 60 plus years. He has probably killed as many elk as any human ever. He killed most of them with a 243 and factory loaded 100 gr. bullets. Recently he moved up to a 6.5 Creedmore because of his diminished eye sight and figured he needed more power........ He also guided for 40 plus years and figured most carry more than needed. He lived in Grizzly country and respected the bears , but still did not power up to cover that situation either.

This is the first year in many I haven't heard of someone or several someone's getting wacked by grizzlies. I am ok powering up.

i think a few Archery hunters in Western Wyoming got charged,injured , but I did not hear of any deaths .

https://rmef.org/elk-network/hunters-kill-grizzly-bear-in-self-defense-encounter/

John,
One of my dad’s hunting partners has a similar story to yours. He was a farm boy who inherited his dad’s M721 topped with a 4x rimfire scope. He handloaded with his fathers old equipment and used whatever primers, powder, brass, and bullets—as long as they were 180 grains—he could find. He would hunt with that mixture of loads, and over the years killed more elk than any other guy in the group.

Back then party hunting was common, and if one or two of the party were lucky enough to draw an uncommon cow tag, the standing policy among the entire group was to "shoot the first cow you see!".

In the 60's and early 70's there was a fraction of the elk in Colorado as there are today, and for a party of four to all fill their elk tags didn't happen very often.

Guess what three cartridges I hunted with this year?..😁

Yup - on hunts on grizzly country it's wise to have a rifle that does well as a stopping rifle. .30-06 with very heavy bullets in an option, but really not a good one.

In fact, that sums up the .30-06 generally. It's an option, but really not a good one.

I've only killed one elk in my life 7mm Rem mag 165gr. extended range. This was outside of Meeker Co. in 1994 . Mule deer same hunt 30-06 PMC Eldorado 165gr. "X" bullet.
A black bear in AK with a .325 WSM 200 gr. Accubond. And a moose in Canada Same 325 WSM with a Speer 200 gr. Hot-Cor.

Said that to say this. No wonderboomer in the world will make up for bad marksmanship.
Hunting with what you can shoot proficiently, be it a .223 or a. 458 trumps poor marksmanship all day everyday.

Shoot what you want but shoot it good. See signature line.

"great minds" etc...

That’s a nice hook to hang a hat on! Load-wise what are you favoring for your 270 these days?

LB, please tell us how many grizzlies you've encountered while elk hunting. Also might want to list how many grizzlies you've seen killed, and list the various cartridges.

Uh, Mr Mule Deer, you'll have better luck high jumping 8ft in the next Summer Olympics than getting a straight answer out of that loser. You probably knew that though.......

John, I've had one friend killed by a grizzly guiding elk, and two mauled (one guiding elk, one fishing). I don't give a flying [bleep] what you think because you've exposed how massively ignorant you are too many times to count, but anyone who hunts elk in grizzly country without a stopping rifle ready to hand is as big of a moron as you are.

So...you yourself are devoid of the experience you are trying to "share" with us, and at the same time, rude as hell.

Yep. Came through perfectly clear with your last post. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Bob,

I wasn't asking about other people's experience, but yours. You keep mentioning your vast experience hunting elk in Colorado, which hasn't had any grizzly/hunter confrontations since the late 1970s.

Yes, people get killed by grizzlies when guiding elk, and get mauled both when hunting and fishing. I would be willing to bet that I know more who've been mauled/attacked than you do, because I've lived and hunted in grizzly country here in Montana for all except for the few years I lived in other states.

Have run into grizzlies not only when hunting elk in Montana, but when hunting caribou, moose and black bears--along with fishing in various places.. Those encounters occurred not only in Montana, but Alaska, and Alberta, British Columbia and the Northwest and Nunavut Territories in Canada.

In fact was taking apart a bull moose in northern British Columbia with my guide when a grizzly tried to come in on the kill. Luckily the horses let us know, quite loudly, beforehand. We finished the job with one of us holding a rifle, and the other working with his rifle next to his hands. On that trip alone saw 9 grizzlies, including one we had to spook off by shooting at its feet.

Also know more than one brown bear (not grizzly) guide who's killed charging bears with the .30-06.

Would also like to know, since you obviously think you do, exactly what are "stopping" cartridges on grizzlies?

Have you ever seen a grizzly in the wild? Meaning not in a national park or zoo.

I'll answer your question if you answer mine: Are you really as much of a dumbfuck as you seem, or is it some sort of act? Colorado is adjacent to Wyoming, where my friend was killed and where I hunt most years depending on tags. Now, here's why I want you to answer my question. Because most people with an IQ above room temperature know where the bears are in the US but you, a "hunting writer" in the loosest sense, are acting ignorant. So do you just play a dumbfuck on TV, or is that how you really are?

My advice is correct: use a stopping rifle in grizzly country.

I don’t know a thing about bears, but do you mean to tell us you carry something substantially more powerful than a 30/06 when you’re fishing in bear country? What would that be? 338WM? 375?
Don’t we have a very accomplished Alaskan bear guide on this forum that killed a grizz/brownie with a 9mm because that’s what he had?

good grief......

I’ve since gravitated to the 338 win mag after a bad experience with a 162 gr bullet from a 7mm rem mag not tracking straight after hitting the near should on a quartered toward me elk. I have no idea if the 338 is better at tracking straighter but my logic tells me it will be better at less than ideal angles. I think physics is on my side here ?

Regardless, I haven’t had it fail me in 15 yrs of taking animals with that cartridge. It shoots fairly flat and recoil is easily mastered with some practice. It’s my go to for everything bigger than a whitetail.

I suspect LB and MD are actually the same person. Perhaps some kind of internal strife playing out on these very pages? Tragic, yet entertaining at the same time. Well, OK, maybe not.

Haha! I could totally understand how MD would need a sock puppet. I would if I was him. That’s a thread of its own right there!

Honestly, fishing is tricky. I don't fish that side of Wyoming (or Alaska) that often, and in the past I've used a .44 revolver with 300gr punch bullets when I did. Mark getting killed did cause me to re-think a bit though and I've been more cautious the last couple years. That's one of the reasons I built a light .375 WSM last year. Hard to use with a fishing pole in your hand though - as I said I'm a lot more cautious now.

John's a good person, not apt to fling arrows or "act".

You're doing a grand job of doing both. GFY and may your odds of needing a stopping rifle in grizzly country equal your ability to be an azz to someone who has nothing to do with your need to compensate...

Apparently I am real DF, because I can't see where you answered any of my questions. You just keep side-stepping, as some people already suggested you would.

A "good person" would give people interested in engaging in a dangerous activity the correct advice: use a stopping rifle when hunting in grizzly country. A "good person" might ponder a bit why so many people have suffered life changing injuries, or in the case being discussed actually died, for want of that advice,

I take this seriously because I know what consequences of not doing so are. I encourage others to do the same.

You still don't get it,. and yes of course you're a massive dumbfuck. That's just the way you are, and it's OK - many people are born that way, and by and large they get on fine in life not really realizing how incompetent they are. But in this case you're giving horrible advice, and that's where your dumbfuckery has to run in to some resistance.

The correct advice is simple: when hunting in grizzly country, use a stopping rifle.

What do you consider a "stopping" cartridges for grizzlies? And on what basis?

The dangerous-game guides I know, both in North America and Africa, generally define it as a cartridge that will at least temporarily halt a charging animal long enough, even if the shot's not perfectly placed, to allow the shooter to put in another shot before the animal recovers from the previous shot.

I'd say .375 or bigger and 4000 ft-lbs and premium softs (A-Frame, TBBC family, Northfork). 0.300 sectional density. That's specifically for bear - AFAIK there are no elk in Africa.

It's a continuum of course. Can you use a .30-06? It's way better than what Mark had (his client had the Glock 10mm apparently) but worse that the above. It'll do better if you use premium 200+gr bullets. But if you get to pick, the .30-06 is not the best thing to pick.

And you know this how? As I asked before (and you never answered) have you ever seen a grizzly shot with any cartridge? Have you ever encountered a wild grizzly? Have you ever used a .375 on big game?

Ahh, the dumbfuck tries again. You still haven't answered if this is just and act, or you're really this stupid.

Oh, I'm very stupid. Am waiting for you to educate me with your vast experience.

We’ve seen enough of Llama Boob’s posts on other threads to know his dumfookery knows no bounds and is to be ignored not mocked.

That was some high quality entertainment.

Think someone is off their meds still. Stopping rifle? Aisle 6 behind starting pistols.

You use whatever you like. I gave the correct advice. If you want to use a .222 with varmint bullets that's between you and whoever enforces the hunting laws.

But bear danger while hunting is very very real, and using too little gun is stupid.

Still waiting, and waiting, and waiting.......Lol

JB, sorry about the “noise”, but do keep on sharing your knowledge and experience around the campfire, we appreciate it.

I second gbear's post

Always glad to read any opinion JB has to offer. On the other hand Llama Bob offers nothing of value....mb

The "Ignore User" button is a beautiful thing.

lol!

You really should stop posting. You deserve the ignore option more than anyone here.

Now that’s funny!!!

Someone should inform 458win that the 30/06 is not adequate to stop a bear…

I remember that guy - he was the one explaining what bullets he thought were effective for shooting client's bears in the ass. You should get him in here - here's just the clown this thread needs

I am going on my first Elk hunt this fall since I began hunting almost 50 years ago.

After reading the thread in the Elk hunting forum about the .300 WM and now this thread, I am a little skeered of toting my 49 year old Rem .30-06 with 168 TTSX's. Hope I make it back to share the story.

I strongly encourage anyone so sensitive that they need the ignore feature to protect their feelings to use it. it will wrap your feelings in a warm protective cocoon that no facts will penetrate

The reality is that this isn't that hard. Use a stopping rifle when hunting in grizzly country. Even in black bear country give bear protection some thought. John is right that there are no grizzlies in Colorado any more, but we had a couple hundred black bears have to be put down this year after maulings and break-ins. Several I know of involved hunting kills. Black bears are MUCH less likely to kill you, but being mauled by a bear is still something worth preventing.

After seeing your outburst last night I think we know who the sensitive person on this thread is.

What data is your opinion based on?



What is “correct advice”? By definition, advice is subjective.

Danger while driving your car is very real, too. Not wearing a racing helmet, fire suit, and five-point harness when you drive two blocks to the grocery store is stupid.

On the other hand, maybe mitigating risks involves trade-offs and compromises that people can reasonably make in various ways. Lots of people shoot better with a sub-.375 caliber rifle, so hunting elk with a large gun that they don’t shoot well, just in case of the very rare event of having to stop a charging grizzly, makes little sense.



Fixed.

You’ve presented no facts about firearms for hunting in grizzly country, but have spewed a lot of baseless opinion.

Between Phil Shoemaker, who’s probably been in on the killing of more grizzly sub-species animals than anyone on the planet, and LB, it’s extremely obvious whose opinion is based on a lot of empirical data, and whose is based on emotion and faulty logic, and it’s not even close.

Thank you, Jordan.

The tide was almost over the top of my chest waders. Obviously this is the gun writer sub forum; to me those baseless rude comments pointed at JB specifically don’t belong here at all. Wish the mods would twist the dial a bit - some of us actually come here for real-world knowledge that we likely can’t get elsewhere. Cheers to JB responding as he did.

LOL, comedy gold right there, you just can't make this stuff up.

LLama Bobby explaining "proper shooting technique in the use of stopping guns".

This the situation you are referring to? https://www.americanhunter.org/content/wyoming-hunting-guide-killed-in-grizzly-attack/

If so, sorry for the loss but anyone coming onto an elk carcass that has sat for 24 hours in grizz country had better have their heads screwed on straight.
Only one firearm and sitting in a pack "a few yards away"(not in a holster on the hip?).."Chubon told authorities he was able to throw his gun to Uptain before fleeing the scene to call for help. " ...a messed up situation.

A .375 H&H wouldn't have mattered because the two lacked mindset and gun handling skills.

.... and yet here you are lecturing on "stopping guns".

I’m bored so I will play a little. First stupid remark, my “sensitivity “.

Very thick skinned. You are a wart on the as s h ole of progress compared to the real men I interact and have interacted with. You haven’t posted anything productive on this thread. Now I see you are a black bear expert to. Stop and let those that have done it pass on good advice when you really have nothing to add.

Oh and I didn’t ignore you I said you deserve to be ignored. I know confusing right? Perhaps to many shots to the head from your “stopping rifle” or whatever you call it. Maybe some reading comprehension classes will help. Oh and black bears? Another topic you think you know? Shhhhhh let the men talk. Thanks

Mike, you really have a way with words, are you a gunwriter?

Hmm 458 carried a 30-06 for years as his back up rifle loaded with 200 gr partitions and then went to 220 partitions in the 30-06 these penetrate really well. I have no idea how many wounded g or brn bears choose to charge vs runaway. But if 458 shot any in the butt it was because that is the shot he had on a client wounded bear leaving the scene as fast as possible
With their reputation as the best penetrators out there I am sure he ended a lot of bad situations waiting to happen. You don't ever read bear hunt stories that aren't 1shot dead right there or it was charging dramas. The fact he now uses a 458 suggests to me he has client's who don't shoot as well as they could. ..mb

I believe Phil has used Old Ugly (his famous 458) for many years.

Hey, as long as Phil is willing to tell us all about the service he provides of shooting his client's bears in the ass, he is MORE than welcome here. The guy is a hoot

One thing about ol’ Llama Robert, he takes no prisoners…..

I will even stipulate that he is the world expert on shooting someone else's bear in the ass. If he claims the .30-06 is optimal for that, I will offer no argument whatsoever

Jesus Christ walks into a bar..

Llama Boob spins in his barstool and says, “WTF are you doing here you stupid phuqing dichhead?!”

Yeah, you suck because you can't swim, that's why you only walk on water

Let's amend that - anyone hunting in grizz country needs their heads screwed on straight. The bears know what a dinner bell sounds like. Mark had too little gun (I think we can agree that a 10mm Glock is light for stopping a charging grizzly bear), wasn't cautious enough, and trusted his client too much. And while he was a friend, he died because he made a series of poor decisions. One of those was the gun.

If you knew for a fact that you would end up in that situation, you'd want all the gun you could get - likely something in the .458 to .577 range. Since no one knows what the future holds and you have to carry the thing and likely want some reach as well as a stopper, something like a light .375 is a reasonable compromise.

Yep, he got those holes in his hands and feet because he used a 30-06 and it just penciled through ..

Did you bring your phuqing stopping rifle? A 30/06?! You stupid MF.

If he tried it, he may throw his 308 in the weeds..

Didn't do a thing to stop the Romans I guess...my bad...

That’s because they didn’t have Nosler Partitions back in Jesus’ day.

"If you knew for a fact that you would end up in that situation, you'd want all the gun you could get - likely something in the .458 to .577 range. Since no one knows what the future holds and you have to carry the thing and likely want some reach as well as a stopper, something like a light .375 is a reasonable compromise."

Now lb is up to the .577 bore. lol

This.

I congratulate LB on amending his assertion that anybody hunting elk in grizzly country should carry a "stopping rifle," which Bob defines as some sort of .375. He amended that to anybody hunting in grizzly country, which is the logical extension of his first remark.

However, he still hasn't answered my question about whether he's ever used a .375 on big game. Since we're all here to learn, that might be useful information.

I have some field experience with both the .375 H&H and Ruger in both North America and Africa, totally over 70 big game animals, ranging in size from around 100 pounds to 1500. Around 80% of those animals were taken by me, and the others by companions I was standing next to. One thing that surprises folks who've never used a .375 H&H or Ruper is they they don't automatically crumple animals, even with fatal shots. In fact, have seen a 100-pound African springbok travel 100 yards after taking a .375 bullet right behind both shoulders, which left an exit hole about the size of a softball. Before the ram fell it never even showed any indication of being hit. The range was about 100 yards.

Have also seen plenty of much bigger game do the same thing. In fact, am trying to recollect an animal that wasn't hit in the central nervous system by a .375 dropping at the shot. It may have happened, but not very often. Have seen 500-pound gemsbok shot through the shoulders with .375 bullets that still managed to go quite a ways before falling.

Might also mention that I've taken around 20% of my big game animals in grizzly country, including Alaska, those portions of Idaho and Montana that have grizzlies (which these days basically means the western half of Montana), the Canadian provinces Alberta and British Columbia, and Northwest and Nunavut Territories. The animals included those we might expect in grizzly country, but also more whitetails than any others, because a lot of prime whitetail country in western Montana is also prime grizzly country.

Other animals include over half my caribou, along with mule deer, elk, black bears, moose, musk ox, bighorn sheep and yes, one grizzly bear. Haven't see grizzlies on all those hunts, but have often seen fresh sign, and on several have seen anything from one to over a dozen bears. Have also had close encounters with several, including the British Columbia bear described earlier that tried to horn in on a bull moose I'd just killed, and a sow and cub very interested in a couple of caribou my hunting partner and I had just killed in the Northwest Territories.

Also in the NWT, once packed out a caribou through an area where a sow and two cubs had been seen earlier the same day. Half expected to encounter them, but didn't. On Kodiak Island was charged twice in one morning by sows with cubs, but both times the cubs, after some confusion, skedaddled to mommy, who decided she was only bluffing. Oh, have twice been followed by grizzlies, both younger bears that were probably curious. One of those occasions was the only time any shots were fired--by my companion at the bear's feet, to scare him off. He didn't scare--but eventually grew weary of the noise and wandered away.

The two things I did do were to remain very aware of being in grizzly country, and having my rifle in my hands when there was any possibility of a close encounter, especially when traveling through close cover, or recovering a freshly-killed big game animal even in wide-open country.

So, All chest Thumping and mutual disparagement aside, did we establish what the minimum acceptable Stopping Caliber is for an enraged charging Black Bear ?

Hypothetically, a 308 Win works for me, 7/08 might be a little light without perfect placement.
6.5 CM is lighter still.

Anyone care to extrapolate for Polar Bear ? 340 Bee has some reach
With Global Warming, they are expanding their territory Southward

I have zero experience with requiring a stopping rifle but imagine that deep reliable penetration & the ability to place the shot under pressure makes the smaller cartridges at least equally effective as the perceived need for something beyond medium bore.

My Grizzly & Bear experience: I have flyfished Alaska 3x and have seen & been around grizzlies every time. Often we have to back off a riffle or break off a fish cuz they moved in. Hunted elk & mule deer in Wyomings grizzly country many times but have never run into one. Black bears are more common but they seem to be on the run away from me unless they are hitting my trash cans at home.

Amazing how a topic on elk cartridges turns into one on bear stopping.

This is what the road to nowhere must be like.

For Koala, I think a 17hmr would do the job but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 22lr

Hagel’s words about selecting cartridges for when things go wrong, very wrong, apply here

I live in grizzly country and would pick my 06' over a .458 or .577 every day of the week because I can shoot the 06' better and am able to make quicker (and accurate) follow up shots without concern with flinch.

And as far as elk cartridges go, my stepfather shot elk for over 35 years with a .270 before switching to .300 WBY. and continuing on for another 10 years. I witnessed kills between the two and they all died the same...and the first 65 elk were killed with the .270 shooting factory Rem. Bronze points.

I killed my first elk with a 300 savage, followed with .270 and 30.06 for the rest. I may try some trick shooting and switch over to the antique 6.5x55, risking life and limb whilst hunting in big bear country just for the fun of it.

Yup. Very first animal I ever took with the H&H was a warthog at 200 yards with a 270 gr. SAF. I kinda expected it to do somersaults in the air like a PD (the PH knew better), but boy, was I surprised when that tough bugger took the hit, ran off, and crashed 50 yards later with a big 'ol exit hole in 'em. That was my beginning education in African game...

I assume you're referring to Mark Uptain. That was a bad deal, in 2018.

You do realize though that they hunted in the heart of Wyoming's grizzly country, and the outfitter he worked for and many other nearby outfitters had promoted (and still do) .270/.30-06 class rounds, with most any decently constructed bullet for their elk hunters, right?

“Stopping power”…. 😂😂
capture screen

Ironically given the nature of the dust up about “stopping rifles”, I would bet a 30/06 with a high velocity and somewhat softer bullet would have put that warthog down quick. Say a 165 SGK going 2900 fps.

Not around the campfire of fools with foul mouths and no manners...LOL!

It seems they will type things they would not say in person to another man’s face. I try not to get caught up in the word slinging, but this is over the top. We have a professional who spends his valuable time answering our dumb ass questions. That crap is rude and uncalled for.

Pastor of my dad's church in Anchor Point, when he lived there was hunting deer on Kodiak with a .243, when a bear charged. The bear ran over him as he fell backwards. Somehow he ended up on his knees with the rifle in hand. It had been slung over his shoulder. One shot dropped the bear. I don't recall where he hit it. But, on that day the .243 was a stopping rifle. I believe the story appeared in Alaska Magazine as told to Jim Reardon. IIRC.

Reading impaired, or just comprehension impaired?

+1 Hanco, and that applies not only to Mule Deer, but Phil Shoemaker too. We're lucky to have both and personally, I don't want some fool alienating either one. Life is too short for that kind of fooliishness.

You've got the wrong idea. Phil is a fount of knowledge no one else has. Why, we were discussing the behavior of Woodleigh softs, and he was able to pop in and tell us he was disappointed using one on the northernmost end of a southbound bear. Now who else is going to have that kind of specific, actionable knowledge? So of course we asked him to provide details - how exactly had the Woodleigh failed? But when specifics were asked, Phil disappeared like an ursine backside through the alders. I guess the ass of america's great bears waits for no man...

Dude. We are super sorry your buddy didn't keep himself alive. Maybe an airstrike next time?

However the odds are about the same as dying from covid and the rest of us are fine with the risks we take.

You have added zero to the conversation. So GFY and find somewhere else to hang out that meets your kingly standards, azzhole.

Keep on driving with your mask on sweetie.

Y'all think maybe Bob Brown is now a Llama?

Mule Deer,

Have you worked with the 6.5-300 Weatherby anymore? I vaguely recall an article.

Reloading information is really hard to come by. Thoughts?

He’s got a familiar ring to another 2 or 3 screen names that have/had an answer to every question.

Did the article on the 6.5-.300 for the HODGDON ANNUAL MANUAL back when the cartridge first appeared. Worked with it considerably for a couple years, but finally decided I didn't care for the recoil compared to the results. Basically found it got exactly the same ballistics as the 26 Nosler with the same powders, charges and bullets, which isn't surprising given that both cases have just about exactly the same powder capacity.

But eventually decided I didn't care for the recoil of either round, compared to the results. These days am much happier with the 6.5 PRC, which is essentially a short-action 6.5-06--which I also used for a while and liked a lot. But my custom Sisk PRC weighs a couple pounds less than the 6.5-06 Shaw rifle I used for several year.

He was definitely a big mouth douche

Seems he could be directly related to Mike Werner same know it all attitude?

The Dolly Llama showed his azz again.....

Well I have carried a 338 WM for years. I have only dealt with a grizz in wyo. I was outside of Cody and never seen him. He was outside my tent trying to get in the bear box, he moved on. I had killed a deer a few days before and hung it outside of a campground about 1/4 mile +. I heard him woofing from that general area. In the morning I dropped of a hunting partner so he could head up the hills to hunt. My other buddy and I headed to where my deer and his was hung up. He had killed and hung his the day before, driving up to the tree he remarks why is my deer so low and where is yours?. All that was left of mine was his head and part of a chewed up hind quarter twisted up in a rope. It was laying up the hill. My buddy lost both hind quarters they were shredded and eaten on. My best guess is my buddy used part of my rope to hang his and ended up lowering mine to hang his.
Anyways I backed up the truck under his and stood guard with the 338 while he took what was left of his deer and my head onto the tailgate. I guess the stopping rifle is more about what you feel comfortable with and shoot well. Most of us don’t have the experience to make decision based on actual experience, so people like MD and Phil opinions are beneficial.
I hunted another time in Wyo with a fishing guide from Alaska.
, he told me about killing a charging grizzly at very close distance, his rifle was chambered in 416 rem. Can’t argue about the stopping power or whether he was comfortable with his choice.
Jeff

Obviously not you.

The 7mm-08 is a very balanced cartridge when you pour over ballistic charts, whereas the 308 is a very balanced cartridge.

I like the 325WSM. Power when it's needed, otherwise OK to be loaded at pussycat speeds. Bulletmaker support be damned, brass support be damned-ish (300WSM lends itself). <400 yards isn't hunting so... yeah all do well when placed properly. Some do better when things are sub-optimal.

So well said, and absolutely mirrors my experience with both rounds.

Part of me just died inside…

It's a sad commentary on the times when Real Deal respected people...willing to share their expertise and experiences...get thrashed and harassed here. -Al

Quote from Puddles post


I tell them to start first at the bullet and then work backwards towards how it's delivered.

Well put IMHO

I don’t believe that for a moment! Your 7mm-08 posts have always been inspirational. I still hunt with mine.

So true on the "harassed" part, but the only person LB is thrashing is himself.

Self immolation seems to be a thing for a few on here, and LLbobby is a perfect example.







....I still wanna use pencil boolits in a 6.5x55 swede for elk........

Nah, Bobby Brown was at least a cool Frank Zappa song. LB is just a turd in the punch bowl.

Pharm, I've always admired your dedication to the 7-08, and the good use you put it to! It "speaks" to you like the 308 does to me. Really, that's about all a guy needs to know about any cartridge. As Finn Aagaard said, "the 7-08 possibly makes the optimum use of the 308 case." And yet Finn was a 308 guy, not a 7-08 guy. I get and like the 7-08 on paper, I just prefer the un-fussiness of the 308.

See what I did there

Brad,

Just realized I am pretty much the same way. Have owned and hunted with at least three 7mm-08s, and though they (obviously) all worked great, they eventually disappeared--while using several .308s, including my favorite, acquired almost 20 years ago, a Merkel single-shot.

My last 7mm-08 "disappeared" by being rechambered to .284 Winchester--which I am certain doesn't have any real-world advantages, but was worth writing about.

Mule Deer

Enjoyed your article on the .284. I have one in the Winchester Mod. 88, but have always wanted one in a bolt action. Rechambering might be the best option for me too. I have also carried mine elk hunting but didn't get a shot yet with it. Does great on deer like so many others.

Glad you liked the article!

Like many rifle loonies, I tend to play with a bunch of different rifles and cartridges. Must admit that anymore much of it just that, playing--though partly because I get paid to "play." But tend to prefer actually finding out, instead of guessing...

I sometimes wonder if Rick doesn't "encourage" sophomoric, profane, insulting posters like Stick, LB,etc. because it increases the post count and the corresponding revenue.

I doubt it--partly because I doubt you'll see much more of LB....

Sounds ominous

If I had picked up the parent first, instead of the child, I’d likely be where you are now.

Realistically, ain’t nothing gonna know it was shot by a .308 or a 7mm-08.

Good bullet, proper velocity, good placement. The rest is hot air.

Fun to discuss, however.




P

Well, we can hope. Reading this thread, I kept thinking "Goodness, what does it TAKE to get banned on this site?"
We shouldn't need rules keeping us civil - that ought to be normal human behavior - but we have it codified as rule #1 on this forum:

1] Please be respectful of other posters at all times. The ability to refrain from personal attacks, obscenities, and flame wars is a minimum requirement for a log at the Campfire.

That said, how can Big Stick still have an account here? I put that guy on ignore long ago but still sometimes get forced to see his drivel when he gets quoted by others, and he almost always belittles and calls others really bad names in every post. I guess rule #1 doesn't mean much if you're him.

Back to the subject though...
I've never killed an elk with a 30-06 but I believe it's a fine round to do so. I have only killed three elk with a rifle - two bulls with the .35 Whelen AI and one cow with the .358 Win. All worked great. But I did kill a large NM bull bison with a 180 Partition in the 30-06, and it worked great, just like I reckon it would have on each of those elk.

Just my two cents.
Rex

Hmmm…… maybe an alpaca.

Rex,

When was the last time you saw Big Stick on this forum?

Am not talking about the Campfire, but ATGW?

I imagine that a 24hcf user may be restricted from posting in selected sub-forums. Hence, no BS and could be LB, posting in this forum. Great news!

Mule Deer:

I also enjoyed your article on the .284, even though I've never had one and likely never will. I'm still curious to learn about rifles and cartridges, even those I'll never experience. I also happened to notice that just two issues before your article was published, one of your colleagues wrote about the .22-284. In it, he disparaged the .284, claiming it would only get 3,000 fps with a 120-grain bullet, or only 2800 with a 150. I had read that article but not given it much thought when that issue arrived, but after re-reading that particular magazine while bored last week I caught the reference to the .284. My curiosity piqued, I then re-checked your results, and noticed you got 300 and 180 fps more, respectively, than your colleague's claims. Like you said above, sometimes rifle loonies just have to know rather than guess. I realize that data obtained by different people with different rifles does not, and should not, always agree, but I've always appreciated your common use of the phrase--when making a claim--that "I know this because . . ." followed by an explanation of something that you actually experienced rather than something you just heard or read about. You make a claim, and then cite evidence to support it. Evidence obtained by playing around with rifles is, after all, still evidence.

Anyway, didn't plan to own a .284 before reading the article, and don't plan to now, but it was still a very informative and enjoyable article. Kind of like enjoying a trip you didn't actually take, if that makes any sense.

Greg Perry

What a shame. I was just starting to warm up to the guy.

Sounds Promising to me.

Jerry

Another fella that enjoyed the 284 article while,like gapery59, having never owned or particularly wanted to own one. Curiously enough, I do have a box of hand loads for one in the truck right now. One of the fellow hunting camp kids forgot it in the console after second weekend deer season. Yes, we are all old enough to suffer from occasional CRS.

What’s the deal with Stick? He seems very knowledgeable but his writing skills are that of a 10 year old Bowery Boy.
I went back (just for the hell of it) and he was never like that. What happened?

The .284 is one that I've thought of building many times, but never could pick an action to build one on. Then the notion goes away for a year or two.

As far as the 7mm-08 vs .308 win go, I've had at least one 7mm-08 around since my dad brought a model seven 7mm-08 home in the early-mid '80's. The first new rifle I bought for myself was a late '80's Mnt rifle in 7mm-08. It was quite a few years before I had a. 308, and I've had some nice ones, but they always seem to go down the road.

Well now that you mention it...

I see what you mean. I didn't realize one could be banned from just a single "sub-forum" within the 24CF group. One is better than none though.
I really appreciate what you and the other writers contribute to ATGW, and am glad ATGW is strict with how folks conduct themselves.
Thanks,
Rex

I've seen several references to putting people on "ignore." So how/where on the forum is this found and used?

Click on the person's screen name. You'll see a drop-down menu. The first choice is "View Profile." Click that and scroll down just a little. It's on the right.


Okie John

Trial by Fire ?

Seems to go with the territory. I prefer a more mannerly approach,
which unfortunately for intelligent discourse is not always present.

Some cases just need a little more convincing … 🥴

True dat - cussin' and discussin' ballistic gack is 1/2 of what this forum is!

The near impossibility of getting banned (other than for EXTREME racism) is one of a few reasons I visit this site and pretty much no others in regards to social media.

Rick may or may not allow all the bickering for more clicks and thus, revenue, but that is besides the point. I like not being micromanage on my words and have the self discipline to not read what I don`t want to.

If I wanted to be on my toes and always watch what I had to say I'd register for an account at HuntTalk, or several others with a much heavier moderator.

Anyhoo...sorry for the derailment but I guess this thread is already off the tracks.

I hunt in grizzly country and recreate in grizzly country as it is all around us.

Use what ever cartridge / bullet combo is appropriate to the primary game hunted.

Defending ones self in a bear attack is much different than you may think.

When hiking/hunting one must use his/her nose, this will alert you to a cache, the folks who have been mauled and killed many times stumbled onto a cache with the bear near by black or grizzly makes no matter as a B-bear will make a mess of you.

An attack generally comes on very quick and most of the time you have no option of defense other than rolling into a ball and protect your head neck area as much as possible. And at some point your must fight in the physical sense if the attack is doing you in. Grizz play dead they will bury you , must like fermented hunter. B-bear will just f'ing kill you.

If one does have an opportunity to employ a rifle, the shot should be really close, if ya got the balls for that, as the outcome most likely be better.

As far as stopping power (a hunting situation, not a defense situation) goes that starts at caliber 33. I have detected no real difference in terminal performance on bullets between 225 grains and 270 grains in 33,35,36,and 37 caliber, running 2500-2700 ft/s at the muzzle.

The 2 friends I have who've hunted Polar Bears said that folks who live in polar bear country mostly carry Savage 340's in 222Rem.............

I’m sure one up the nose would be Dandy. ;-)

Just tuned in to read all the opinions. I've never shot a grizzly so I have no opinion on how much gun is enough to put one down if needed. I will say that every grizzly I've encountered has run off once they've identified my/ our presence. Seems they smell and hear better than see. Having more people in your party makes for more noise and more scent. I recall one big boar running across Colter's Meadow to find a fresh elk gut pile stopped and stood up on his hind legs after reaching the gut pile with his nose straight up in the air trying to figure out what he was smelling. Three of us were sitting 100 yards upwind with three horses. Once he determined that it was people he was smelling he ran back across that meadow and up and over a nearby ridge without stopping for a second. It's happened several times like this. Even once by myself at a closer distance. Identify yourself and let the bear onto your presence before they get to close. Hunting with a buddy or two is better than packing a bigger rifle.

The hunting land I had in northern WI had black bears that were used to human scent. Had one that would rub it's back on one of the shack corners.

I painted the corner boards with a fresh coat of white. Next morning there was hair and dirt on fresh paint. Bear must of rubbed one off overnight while I was sleeping, fugger.

On two occasions I had bear pay me a visit while stand hunting. They'd look at me while I swore like a sailor at them, until I figure they got offended and went their way.

Least it sounds like the griz UncleAlps ran into weren't semi-domesticated like the black bears by me. I always kept the wind at my back when gutting.

Nothing wrong with a surgical strike to do a little gene pool management!

I like that too.

It's all in the bullet.......