Hi guys, I am rebarrelling my 280rem and am considering with I ackley it or stay the same. I have no issues with the Remington version and no experience with the Ackley version. It seems like there is a lot of cool-aide with the improved version, but I'm not sure just how much is actually real or otherwise.

What are your thoughts, one way or the other? It will wear a 26 inch tube either way and if ever you were going to make a change, now is the time to do it right.

Lets have it.

I’ve had both, IMO the improved version isn’t worth the trouble. If the standard 280 isn’t fast enough just go straight to the 7mm Rem mag. When I had the AI version there were no factory cases so fire forming was the rule. Much easier today but the performance isn’t any different.

Only worthwhile point for me would be case stretch.
Wouldn't shoot a 280 all that much, can trim cases if needed.



#1 reason to?

Talking about it.

I've had both, presently have a .280 AI. I have the AI version because that's what Kimber chambered and that's the rifle I wanted five years ago when I bought it. If they chambered the standard version, that's what I'd have. Having said that, there is no trouble of any kind with feeding and shooting the AI.

All of my accumulated .280 Rem brass fire-forms easily. No trouble at all and no need to buy AI brass if you have a supply of good .280 Rem brass or ammunition already on hand.

The extended case life and reduced trimming and sizing work is not BS. I shoot the rifle regularly at the range and it's the lowest maintenance brass I load.

I can load to standard velocity if I want to conserve a little powder at the range, or I can go ahead and take advantage of the added capacity and load to max. The deer don't know any different and neither does the target board at the range.

I don't advocate either way because I like both cartridges and the extra FPS wouldn't sway me, but the brass life and reduced maintenance alone are reason for me to like the AI. I'd buy it again if I had it to do over again.

I hadn't really considered the brass life aspects between the two. Less stretch is definitely a benefit.

How did you go about fireforming your cases, never had to do that in over 30 years of reloading.

I see it is deep in the winter or summer as is the case for the OP. In other news, people are still trying to cou t how many fairies will stand on the head of a pin.

This is what I would do as well

I think my AI-ing days are behind me now.

I have enjoyed my 280 AI for almost 30 years. I handload all my ammo so it really makes no difference if I load standard 280 or 280 AI. I do get about 100 fps more from the AI but I have never tried to push my loads to 7mm Mag levels as some do.
Bottom line, there is really not that much difference. Get the one you like.

Mine as well. I still have a 243AI and a 280AI, but when they are gone, I don't see me doing them again.

I did the same thing.....lol. My thought process was like yours. It's not worth the trouble, stick with a 280. Of course you can still shoot a 280 factory in a 280ai but still... it's not much difference. My current 280ai turned out a little heavier than I wanted and it sits in the safe more times than not.

Take a standard 280 cartridge ,place it in the chamber of an 280AI and pull the trigger. BTW that may be one advantage of the AI, you can shoot standard 280 and 280AI ammo if the need ever arises. I have 7x57AI and accuracy is excellent with either round.

Take a standard 280 cartridge ,place it in the chamber of an 280AI and pull the trigger. BTW that may be one advantage of the AI, you can shoot standard 280 and 280AI ammo if the need ever arises. I have 7x57AI and accuracy is excellent with either round.

Which one is easiest to get brass/ammo for? That might make the difference for me.

This is the biggest reason I went with the 280AI. It's what I REALLY like about the .223AI. The extra fps doesn't matter much to me in either of them but the reduced trimming (especially with the .223 version with volume shooting) is something I really appreciate.

Just curious as to why. I have a .280 and .30-06 AI. I chronographed 180 Hornady factory loads at 2690 fps out of my AI chamber. I shoot those and load the fire formed brass, which then doesn't stretch much. That eliminates most case trimming, which I personally don't enjoy.

I don't see much velocity advantage outside of loading to increased pressure in the AI rounds, but the lack of case stretching is nice.

The AI is the easiest to get brass / ammo for in .280 / .280 AI, because there is factory brass and factory ammo for both cartridges and either will work in most .280 AIs. I have both.

I have a 280 ai. Like it fine. I only neck size brass and have had no issues.

If doing over, I’d likely just go 270 and be done with it.

I have and have had multiples of both. If I were starting all over again in the realm of the 280 and could choose only one I would go only 280 AI. Why? Brass life/lack of trimming is the major decision making point between the two for me. Additionally, take out all of the hyperbole asserted by 280 AI fans and look at the ballistic truths, it really is enough better than the 280 and it really is close (but no cigar) enough to the 7 mag to "justify" it. Look at it for what it is and not for what it is not. In reference to my first point making the decision from a starting over standpoint, it is much easier today to find 280 AI brass and ammo than it is to find 280 brass and ammo.

Well on my 243AI it is a tight neck and I have to turn necks so I can not just shoot 243 ammo and get my brass. After the forming, the FPS is not that big of a gain. A 6mm Remington is about the same with no fire forming required.
As far as the 280AI, brass is not as big of an issue but it still will not catch a 7mm Rem mag.

I think MD tested and wrote that firing standard cartridges in AI chambers resulted in velocity loss? I could be mistaken.

I have both too, and if you're looking for brass/ammo today, the 280AI is MUCH EASIER to find brass and ammo at a reasonable price.



EXACTLY!

And don't compare owning a 280AI to owning a 7x57AI or a tight neck 243AI (or even to a 280AI built pre-SAAMI 280AI adoption) where fireforming is required. With factory 280AI brass and ammo more readily available than 280 brass/ammo, owning a 280AI is all-around easier than owning a 280, and I have both.

Maybe another good indicator is to look at the variety of factory rifles currently being chambered in 280AI versus 280. I cannot think of a single factory rifle being chambered in 280, while there are many in 280AI.

Yes, but then you end up with over pressure 7mm-08 velocities.

Re-barreling with a 26” tube, I would go with the AI. Dies to match of course.

Cats like the Sherman might be worth a closer look at this juncture as well.

I’m very happy with my standard 280 Rem in a 22” Fwt Classic M70.
I load this to .30-‘06 pressures, but could safely load to 270Win / 7mm Express levels

My AI is on a 24” 700 KS, No complaints either. Book loads max out at 65 Kpsi.

I’d like to try a Standard 280 Rem in a 23” Kimber 84L, for slicker feeding , and
Less recoil than the AI or a .30-‘06

Have to admit that obvious fact plumb evaded me when I posted that. Mainly I was thinking about how I see AI ammo and brass here and there pretty regularly, but can’t recall seeing anything for the regular one in ages: rifles, ammo, or brass.

If there's a bandwagon - I'm getting on this one. ^^^

Just for spits and grins I did a little comparison with what my custom .280 Rem. does with a 160 gr. bullet vs the 160 gr. bullet from the various manuals. My rifle is based on a 1909 Argentine Mauser with 24" barrel. Velocity with the 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam is 2880 FPS average. I probably could get a bit more but just haven't bothered. The load is sub MOA when I do my part.

From the Nosler #8 the 160 gr. bullet does 3045 FPS from a 26" barrel. From the Hornady #10 they show 2900 FPS and 24" barrel. Sierra shows 2950 FPS from their 6th edition using a 26" barrel. Speer for some reason does not show the .280AI in their #15 manual, nor is the .280 AI mentioned in the Lyman #50. In the worst case, the 280AI beats my .280 by 165 FPS based on the Nosler book and only 20 FPS based on Hornady's data.

For the record, I am using a powder no longer available, Winchester's magnum Rifle Power. Seems to agree quite well with my .280 and as I have a good supply I'll stick with it. I got basically the same results with IMR7828SSC in speed but not the accuracy.
Paul B.

Yep. It's that simple. I load a light book charge of 4064 (because I have a LOT of it) with a 139 Hornady (because I have a LOT of them) when I want to fireform a new batch from my existing stash of .280 Rem brass. Chamber and pull the trigger. Nothing complicated or detail burdened about it.

That’s logical, but not the case with my .30-06 AI. It seems to get published velocities when fire forming factory loads. Though, it has a Bartlein barrel chambered by a benchrest shooter. Haven’t chrino’d a .280 AI under those conditions.

Sold my 280 Rem and kept the ammo and brass, can use it in my 280 AI

I seem to recall JB exposing the AI yet writing that a hundred feet percent is meaningless. The latter being my experience in general.

Given todays fine powders and bullets, I can't see much advantage to the AI, except for improved case life. Remember that you need to waste a shot just fire forming.

As to the 7X57AI, I think it's a good AI conversion. I had a 7X57 ICL Tortilla that was stupid fast if loaded with light shorter bullets. The ICLs had slow twists, and they needed speed and shorter bullets, so it was a wash, IMO.

My present HVA in 7X57 AI is a one-holer and gets on average 120 fps more velocity, but, again, I have to fire form and waste a shot. The other AIs I've had weren't worth the conversion, although my two 257 AIs are great shooters with close to 25-06 velocity. The Kimber MT is a super mountain hunting rifle; it's so light and accurate for a tiny gun. The Ruger 77 257 AI was done years ago to clean up a mediocre chamber and shot 50% tighter after the AI job.

The 280 is a good round. I wouldn't change things.

Ok, so the majority here are staying with their AIs, mostly for brass availability, and lack of trimming reasons…

I,d like to pose the following question for those abandoning their 280 Remingtons :

What would you replace your 22” 280 with ? And Why ?

6.5 x 55 ? 6.5 CM ? 7mm-08 ? .270 Win ? .30-‘06 ?

If possible , What platform ?

TIA

I've had several .280's and two .280AI's. .280 factory ammo sucks and has been hard to find even before the current craziness. Factory .280AI good stuff and often more available. I don't need to fire form brass because AI stuff is readily available. I would never choose the .280 over the AI version. In today's world, there is no valid reason too.

Many also report terrific accuracy with these “forming” loads

I can’t argue with that. I think most 280 aficionados are handloaders at heart.
Part of the panache I suppose. You have to load yer own to realize the full potential.

Funny though, you don’t hear that about .30-‘06 . Reloading is More for economy there . If you want more velocity, the logical thing is to trade up to a .300 mag, and accept the recoil.

I’ve always found that Federal Premium with the 150 NP in various generations of packaging, always produced good accuracy in my 280’s.

I have shot a lot of game fire forming for my 260AI, I wouldn’t consider any of those shots wasted

That WAS my thought for the duration that I owned a 7x57AI. But it was a great learning lesson for me.

The fireform loads, as others have mentioned, were VERY accurate.

Mine was in a Ruger #1 with a 26" Bbl, I suspect most of the velocity 'gain' was in the Bbl length and a tight neck more than the AImprovement.

I could have shot standard ammo all day long and probably paid for it by selling formed AI brass after the fact. Vowed I would stick to 'Standard' chamberings here after....

Recently picked up a Ruger M77 that had been rebarreled in 280AI, stopped by a local GS and found this:



Mine was chambered before SAAMI specs for the 280AI, but the ammo chambers, snugly, and should work just fine.

I’m not abandoning my Fwt M70 280 yet, but I’d like to try a Kimber 84L with ~23” bbl.

A 760 or 7600 could prove most interesting.
They are Reputed to be accurate, plus quicker than a bolt action, and lighter recoiling than a .30-‘06

I think that's the point most are missing here. The 280AI is a SAAMI round now, with quite a few (good, 65Kpsi) factory loads and brass available. And the 280AI stuff is more readily available and at lower cost than 280Rem stuff.

As far as factory rifles available, the 280Rem is (virtually?) non-existent. While many manufacturers chamber the 280AI, from Savage to Cooper, and many in between.

Avoid the angst. 7x57.

I wish my 280 was a 7x57 for no good reason.

I have a 280AI and have been using it some for a while. Very accurate and I have settled on the 160 grain Partition and a max load of I4350. It has become more of a backup rifle as it always maintains zero and can do just about anything my 30-06 can do.On the other hand if it were a 30-06 I would be just as happy with it.

While I think the .280AI is a great cartridge, I think I’ll stick to my .275 Holland & Holland Improved, also known as the 7mm Weatherby Magnum. Lol

I've probably killed as much stuff while fireforming 223AI loads as I have with formed loads. There's no reason not to hunt with fireforming loads...just load the bullet you want to hunt with at a near max charge of the powder you want to use...play with load as needed to get the accuracy you desire....and then go kill stuff. The same load, with a touch more powder if you like, is probably going to have great accuracy in your formed brass.

I have a Beretta Mato In 280 Remington and it has tight neck with increases pressure abit. Barnes Vortex 140 grain TTSX advertised velocity is 2980. My Ohler 35 records 3025 FPS the load is very accurate

I see my 280 as a 7x57 Extended & Improved w/o the Exagerated and Inconsistent military throating for 175 RoundNose


🤔

Don’t know why this one isn’t more popular.
It is everything that the 7 RemMag aspired to be, but isn’t.
Shoulder & throating issues reduce the pressure standard for the 7 Rem Mag to where the 280AI has a niche to fill.

And the AI fills it well !

I believe the 275 Holland & Holland improved would be the 7mm STW

7mm-08.

But only if you really, really know what you’re doing.





P

I would never do that.




Another 280, Remington or Ackley.

It depends on what you hunt, I suppose and your opportunity. I never had any desire to just kill stuff, and our big game seasons are limited in their tag availability now, not so when I was young and deer tags were OTC with extra late season tags many years.

Given the wide open country I hunt and the now limited opportunity, I want to use the best I have, a finished product with well known characteristics that are optimized. Somewhere where hunting is more confined and with 2-7 deer tags a year I can see a rationale for using un-fireformed ammo, or waging war on skwills and gofers.

When I get that one chance every several years I want the very best load I've been able to concoct.

I think that for many, the 7mm-08 represents the logical step away from the 280 Rem if one already has a 280 AI , and doesn’t want the risk of a 7x57 :

A little less range ( MV , but not that much less than anemic factory stuff),
Short Action weight and balance, still a 7 mm, So no Man-Bun required Ha

I’m thinking about one for one of my 2 boys,
… I’m also thinking about another 280 though 🥴

475 - Better have that punched to AI,
No point leaving all that extra velocity on the table !
Does it have any throat left ?

I have owned rifles in all three cartridges. There is really no valid reason to own a 7 x 57, or .280, or 270, anything they will do, the AI will do better. I was never able to wrap my mind around the popularity of the .270, they took an 06 case loaded it with a smaller diameter bullet , and gave praises to the gods of gun cartridges. In no way was it superior to the,06 and with heavier bullets it did not do nearly as well. In the 70's I owned 5, 30:06's a 270, 280, and a 7X57, all are great cartridges but none of the 7's could beat the 06 or in some cases never come close. I still have the 280 and 1 , 06 but hunt with neither of them. The AI will outperform them all and with the right loads and is just a few fps. shy of the 7 mag, of which I also own,, and have killed game with. As 338 says, why settle for less when you can pick up that extra available velocity?

I also own these cartridges and all have 22" barrels except the 7mm Remington which is 26".

If there is any difference in the field, I never saw it and the velocities for the AI were near identical to the .30/06 so it never really offered any advantages in the field. In fact, the .30/06 does offer heavier bullets which is certainly not a disadvantage. Because the AI and '06 shoot bullets under 175 grains at same/similar velocities when barrels are also same/similar, it makes it very difficult to state a superiority of one over the other when the game is lower 48. Any difference related to BC would be lost in the realm of handshake in the field over usual hunting distances.

As I said, I have them all and like them all but even the 7x57 will equal them all on game, as there certainly is no animal living on this planet that cannot be taken with the 7x57 but could be taken with the AI. Its just a matter of what pleases you and that's, ok.

The 7mm's taught me how good the .30/06 is and I am a classic sucker for the 7x57 which I've used a lot longer..

Have had multiple rifles in both chamberings. Most of the stuff written here deals with velocity. Very little about mechanical functioning or world-wide availability.

First: there is about 35-40 fps gain with the improved all else being equal. I spent several thousand dollars to determine that.

Second: the standard will always feed better than the improved case. If you shoot from a bench and single load then no big deal. A PF will feed the improved OK but not as well as the standard, ever.

Third: theoretically the 280 is slightly superior by the numbers to a 270 BUT MUCH LESS CONVENIENT. Also the 280’s are generally more finicky to develop loads for than a 270. I sold all my 280 stuff and concentrated on the 270.

That is true with any improved cartridge I own and others I have tried.

LOL

Confession time

I own a few '06s and am prone to pick one as I leave for a deer hunt. When all is considered, it's hard to argue with the choice. One of my top favorite rifles is my light FN Supreme '06 in a Pownd'r stock with a LW 22" barrel. It's one of those rifles where everything worked out right.

^ Sage Words

How would you rate a .30’06 standard on this scale ?

That’s just silly , Ha.

Everyone knows that 7mm-08 is the modern day answer !

Feeding , Panache, Results they are all good.

In the spirit of this Std vs AI thread, I’m going to suggest that what you really want is a stainless push-feed 7x57 AI , or walk on the wild-side, an Improved 30.

Sure, One extra shot to form it, but unfired brass needs one firing to snap into the corners fully.

Thoughts ?

Or a .284 Winchester....

Or (GASP!) a .270 Winchester...

Ok, that’s going a bit far ; And furthermore betrays a perverse sense of the practical !

I vote 7x64 because it's legal for big game and available in Namibia, which can be a great place to hunt : )

With Spirited Handloads Matching Magazine Length , of course !

🤠

See Garandamal post re 270 win / 6.8 Western hybrid 3.6” max oal in 270 AI thread

The times they are a Changin’

the standard 280 cannot hold a candle to the 280 ai i own both
hand loaded the standard 280 just cannot come close to the ai

If a 280 Rem was not enough I'd just opt for a 7MM Rem mag.

I have owned various 7MM in my life and hunted with all of them. 7X57, 280 Rem, 7MM Rem Mag, 7MM Weatherby Mag and 7mm STW. The only one of the bunch I kinda miss is the 7X57.

Having killed game with them all, I can't say I saw any great step up in the quickness of the kills from the 7X57 all the way up to the 7MM STW or anything in between. It flies in the face of those that worship higher speeds but the facts are the facts.

As of now, I own no 7MMs. I have nothing bad to say about them at all. It's just that between my 270s my 308s and my 30-06s I never saw a thing any of my 7MMs did any better from the game I killed. No worse in many cases, but never better.

So now my calibers go from a 25-06 to a 6.5X54 M/S, the four 270s, to a groups of five different 30cals from 30-30 to 300 mag. I then jump to an 8X57 and then to my 358 Win and three 9.3s and finally to my 375H&H. With those I have a great deal of over-lap, so adding a 7MM back to the pile of calibers would only happen because of the gun it was in. I am a lover or classic Mausers (the reason I miss the 7X57, which I let my Brother in Law talk me out of)

Other cartridges I have used and loved are the 6MM Rem, 257 Roberts, 6.5X55, 30-40 Krag, 7.5 Swiss, 338-06, all of which I no longer have. Not to complain about any of them. They were all great. It's just that over the years I have cut out many that were redundant in their performance on game.
Of the list of those I have sold off, the only one I may break down and build another one again is the 338-06. But my 9.3X62 and my 9.3X74R do all the same things as well. My 9.3X57s also do very well on game.

Still.......I do miss that Mauser.

not trying to pick a fight. Just curious. What is "close"? How much difference in MV are you seeing?

With both loaded to the same pressure the difference in powder capacity will be about 40 FPS. Load data for the AI is at higher pressure than the standard 280

Have nothing against the AI, but what would you shoot with an AI that you wouldn't with a classic 280? I can't think of anything...

Isn't it the situation that the straighter walled cartridges can take slightly higher pressures because the increase in pressure is mainly on the side-walls of the cartridge as opposed to the bolt-face? So you've got the 6mm Creedmore case with its straighter side-walls being able to take a higher pressure than the .243 case. If on the .280 AI case the extra 100 fps is broken up as follows (the first half grain of powder brings the velocity up to the level of the standard .280, the other perhaps 2 grains increases the velocity by 40 FPS and gives equal pressure, then any further powder increase increases pressure and velocity by say 50 psi, and the case design being more efficient might increase velocity by say 10 FPS) then isn't that ok? It's when pressure is excessive on the straighter-walled cases that it becomes a problem surely?

Ive had many 280 Remington's and 280 AIs over the last 40 years. My go to deer rifle is a 280 Rem. I like them both very much but find myself grabbing the 280 Rem much more often. I've loaded for them all and with careful loads and bullets a 280 Rem will do anything a 280 AI will do.

No the straighter case walls do not grip the chamber walls and refuce bolt thrust.

If bolt thrust is not reduced, why don't the straighter walled cases show primer indentations, ejector marks and stiffer bolts as much as tapered cases when both are operating at high pressure?

. They do. Primers aren't a good indicator of pressure.

One of the often mentioned aspects of Ackley Improved cases is that they don't show the usual signs of high pressure as much as non-Ackley cases. They may show case head expansion, but not the usual signs such as primer craters, ejector marks and stiffer bolts.

That is not true. AI case do not show case stretch because of the steeper shoulder. But ejector marks primer craters and stiff stiff bolt are not reduced by AI'ing the case. A squared and lapped in bolt lugs will not exhibit stiff bolt lift while exceeding SAAMI pressure even when not AI'ed

The 280 Rem is spec'd at 60000PSI the 270 Win is spec'd at 65000 PSI. Do you think Rem/Win/Ruger or brass mfg. etc. say "oh this next action/piece of brass is for a 270 make it 15% stronger than that 30-06/280 we just built"

Get a 280 Rem, handload it and work up slowly toward 62-63K psi and you won't know the difference to a 280 AI.

Are you saying that the greater case stretch on a non-Ackley case comes about by only the front part of the case stretching as opposed to the whole case stretching? Because if the whole case is stretching then there must be greater force against the bolt-face.

No that is not what I said.

You really don't understand what's going on.

In general, the whole case stretches in EVERY direction when pressure gets close to 50,000 PSI. Below that, and typical cases don't stretch, which is why fired primers often stand "proud" of the case-head in .30-30 and other similar-pressure ammo. Just a little headspace results in the primer backing out of its pocket, because the pressure's enough for the case to stick to the chamber, but not stretch.

Yes, AI cases "stretch" because of the sharper shoulder--but only if sized so the shoulder firmly contacts the front of the chamber. If they're sized "short," they stretch. It has nothing to do with brass "flow" during firing. Instead, it occurs due to the firing/resizing cycle, as it does with many rimless rounds.

Many factory cartridges these days have steep enough shoulders--say 30-35 degrees--to prevent case "stretching" during multiple firings IF they're resized so the shoulder firmly contacts the front of the chamber.

You really don't seem to understand the argument. I never said anything about brass flow, that was posted by someone else. Your comment AI cases "stretch" because of the sharper shoulder doesn't make sense. I assume you mean "AI cases do not "stretch" as much because of the sharper shoulder". The point that was being discussed is whether there is less bolt thrust on AI cases over non-AI cases. Perhaps you learn to be a bit less arrogant in the way you address people who are having a genuine discussion...this is the second time you've replied to me with "You really don't understand what's going on" or similar. The first time, I let it go.

I own both, I like the AI better. More velocity, means a little more energy. Both are essentially 30:06 cases will a little modification, as is the .270. Which I have always considered worthless. The 06 can still get the job done with a little less velocity.

While the AI attempts to match its performance?

Opinions are like that.


GR

RH, the pressure on the walls of the case and the case head are equal.
ANY excess headspacing can lead that particular rifle to stretch/flow/grow the brass. Proper sizing steps can mitigate some of it.

Yes, if an AI case is loaded to its full potential compared to its standard chambering it can have a higher pressure on the bolt as it has a higher pressure overall on the entire case.

A few of my Kenny Jarrett rifles. The bottom one being his original Bean Field Rifles in the 280ai that I will be selling. A beautiful rifle that is incredibly accurate. I always wanted one of Kenny’s rifles in this caliber from reading all the countless magazines articles written about him, his rifles particularly in the 280ai.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/188195.jpeg

It is a 9% increase in powder capacity from 280rem to 280ai.
It is a 10% increase in powder capacity from 280ai to 7mmRM.


Hodgdon website 7mmRM 3.250" H4350, 140 gr
starting load Hodgdon 56.0 gr 2,808 fps 45,500 CUP
max load Hodgdon 59.0 gr 2,927 fps 50,000 CUP


19% overload with safety margin:
My load I worked up to brass yield and backed off the charge to a calculated temperature and process safety margin and killed over a dozen deer with using multiple rifles:
7mmRM 3.34" 26" barrel, 140 gr nos bal tip moly 70 gr H4350 chrono 26" barrel
Quickload: 75kpsi 3387 fps
chronograph: 3400 fps

What does it all mean?
The 280, 280ai, 7mmRM powder capacity does not matter as much as how it is filled.

Riflehunter,

Sorry for not being clear--especially about why AI cases DON'T stretch as much during firingf.

But my main point is that Ackley Improving has NO EFFECT on bolt-thrust in modern, higher-pressure rifle cartridges. It can in lower-pressure rounds, where the pressure's so low the brass doesn't stretch during firing.

Am I reading this correctly? You are using a load that is 11 grains above the manufacture's listed maximum??

Yes, for many years with many 7mmRM rifles, in extreme temperature conditions, with many deer and antelope dying.

Hodgdon does not manufacture H4350.
It is made by ADI in Australia, owned by a French company, Thales group.

Hodgdon does own a big truck. I have seen a picture of it with the Hodgdon family. It says "Hodgdon" on the door.

Still interested in hearing the data. Thanks

Interested as well, as I have a standard 280.

I have a Remington 700 in .280 Rem. I see no reason why it can't be safely loaded to the same pressures as a .270. If you do that, there's not much difference between .280 and .280 AI velocities, perhaps 50 FPS in equivalent rifles.

Jim Carmichael writings got me started on 280’s and 338’s. I’m over the 338 thing. I’ve owned 2ea. 700’s and 2ea. 70’s in 338. Now I’m thinking my 300 Weatherby with 200 grain partitions will do pretty much what the 338 with 250 grain partitions did. (Though the best bull I shot was with 338 and 250 partitions.)
The 280 will always have places in my safe. I have several including a #1 Ruger I just bought here on the fire. Curiosity got me regarding the 280AI. I bought a custom blue-printed heavy barrel 280 on a 700 action and had the chamber cut to 280AI. I’m not sure the cost of re-chambering etc. was worth it. I’m hoping to see what it will do with more load development. The brass was also quite a bit more expensive. The gain in velocity really is not a concern of mine. As far as brass longevity goes - I think the extra cost for the brass wipes out those benefits.
As far as better - I don’t know! My concern is accuracy. If I can’t get it to shoot at least as well as my best 280, it will go down the road.

This was the intent of the 7mmExpress Remington Bolt Action loading, of course Reality interfered with Intent.
Plus, consumer confusion with the 7mmRem magnum didn’t help any.

The 280/7mmExpress 17.5 feeds better than the AI 40 .
Case trimming isn’t all that onerous with appropriate equipment.

B : Our experiences are similar. Our own Johnny Bwana MuleDeer was significant in my 338 Win Mag reading and thinking wrt hunting applications . his custom 338 was an icon to me.

I’m not looking for another 340 Wby now, a 338 Wby RPM maybe, in the right package.
I like what a 210 NP does in a 338’06 . In the Win Mag 225 / 250 s got it done for me.
338 RCM appeals, is it factory loaded still ?

.30 200s at 300 mag velocities have plenty of reach, and nasty recoil.

300 PRC appeals for LR situations. As does a 338 Lapua in a BRNO602 / CZ 550 .

I’m older and wimpier now and I’m content with both the 280 and the AI version. I don’t see a big 7 in my future., but who knows. If it came with 100 pieces of once-fired Lapua brass …

Cheers

jwp: your comment matches my experience.. But I sure would like to hear XBOLTS rationale for saying that a standard 280 doesn't "hold a candle" to the AI. Me thinks his silence says it all....

My cousin said the 300 Weatherby recoil was severe too. I think he had shot a slim barreled Weatherby??? I don’t know but the Remington 700 Classic recoil with 200 grain bullets seems a lot easier on the shoulder than the 338 with 250 grain bullets.
I’m in my 70’s with arthritis and bursitis and my 300 Weatherby’s recoil isn’t an issue.

Comparing the 280 Rem to the 280 AI is like comparing the 300 Savage to the 308 Win or the 260 Rem to the 6.5 C or the 7mm-08 Rem to the 284 Win.

Under field conditions and as it regards shooting at game, they are the same to each other.

Those comparisons just give guys that are bored and have way too much time on their hands something to argue about.

Yep!

But what else do rifle loonies have to do between hunting seasons?

This month, I am building a 280ai.

I was building rifles in September and shooting deer in October, but then the covid lockdown... the supply chain..... the theme of the last 3 rifles is "use up spare parts".

B : just throwing shade on the big 300’s with their sharp recoil impulse.
I think it’s more about stock fit and shape, after rifle weight, and balance.

One of my first 338s was an Abolt Stainless Stalker, nice wide butt pad, full grip, and the muzzle blast was 26” away ; All of which contributed to recoil management.

Probably would’ve been good in a 300 mag too, but I had a 338 Win Mag

Let's say you do run your .280 AI at slightly higher pressure than you would a .280 as many AI owners do. So instead of just getting around 40 to 50 fps more due solely to the increased capacity, you get perhaps 100 fps more with maybe 40-50 fps of that increase due to higher pressure. How much of a risk is this realistically?

Book loads for the 280AI are at 65 Kpsi.

The time honoured tradition of loading up until primers loosen, and then backing-off a “couple” grains, probably puts you into 70-72 Kpsi territory or higher. Might test the action some, if only one lug is bearing.

What does your Chrono say ? No free lunch

Around 3100 fps with 140s with H4831

Nosler shows 62.5 grains H4831 @ 3177 FPS in a 26” barrel

It also lists 57 grains H4831@ 3005 FPS with the ordinary .280 in a 26" barrel. That's a difference of 172 FPS. So I suppose in a .280 with a 26" barrel at similar pressure to the 280 AI, the velocity would be around 3100 FPS...perhaps around 3000 FPS in a 22" barrel.

It's pretty easy to tell how much influence the AI case and the higher SAAMI pressure have on the "extra" velocity of the .280 AI, using some basic ballistic formulas. It's just about half extra case capacity, and half extra pressure. Added together they amount to at most around 100 fps , about as much velocity is lost by even a pretty high-BC bullet loses in around 40-50 yards.

Of course, any handloader is free to push any cartridge balls-to-the-wall. Whether that makes any discernible difference in "killing power." trajectory or wind drift is another question.

Now that this has been clearly settled. How about the vast killing-power difference between the 7-08 and the 7x57?

This is what I want to see, need to know how much I am giving up to my wife and her 7x57.

Classic rifle looney discussion/argument here. LOL

It seems all agree that the 280AI does offer a little more velocity than the standard 280. The question is whether or not it is enough to matter. My take is that I’d not pay any money to convert a 280 to a 280AI. However, when starting with a blank slate, so to speak, I don’t see any reason to not choose the AI now that brass for it is offered by some manufacturers. I have Lilja barreled 280AI on stainless M70 put together by Redneck. It feeds flawlessly and shoots accurately. 3100 fps with RL26 under 150 ELDX and 3200 fps with RL22 or RL23 under 140 Ballistic Tips. I’m sure I’d be just as happy if it were a standard 280.

I have a standard 280 Rem MR that I'm getting 2940 fps with RL23 under 150 BT. I looked at building a 280 AI even bought an action to get started and changed my mind when I purchased the 280 Rem MR. Don't really need the AI version.

Nosler lists the 140 gr 7mm/08 at 2825fps, the 280 Rem 140 grain at 3000 fps and 280 AI 140 grain at 3200 all with a 24 inch barrel. I gather most think the 200 fps difference is really closer to 100 fps, but I'm more curious how these three would compare if all shot from a 22 barrel. My guess is it would have the smallest effect on the 7mm/08 and the biggest on the AI and would close the gap even further between the 280 and the AI Does that sound right?

I ask this because I'm looking for one of these three for my son and except for a Ruger No. 1 I think for how and where he hunts he would prefer a 22 inch in a bolt gun and I think the old 77 tangers in 280 were 22 inch which is ideally what I would like to find him or No. 1

Heavens, what an outstanding voice of reason! Having two .280 Rem rifles, I'm not remotely interested in AI unless my quarry obtains Kevlar.

I load my 24" 280 with a load I found right in the Nosler manual #4, 160-162g at 2930 fps with IMR 7828 with a fed 210. In my 26" 280 AI, I run the 175g-180g at 2980.

You are a leg up if you form brass for either case from Lapua 30/06 brass, fire forming with 14-14.6g of Bullseye and cream of wheat. The neck will be a tad shorter, keep the carbon out of the neck with a pistol bronze bristle brush. You will wear a rifle barrel out with 100 Lapua cases....this brass is Tough! Peterson does make a run of 280 Brass from time to time.

This past year, I ran the std 280 with 180g ELD-M at 2700 with R#17 with a fed 215, Lapua brass. This load is very impressive in ballistic and accuracy.

Accuracy node with my 280 with a 140g is 3000 where it shoots 1.5" at 300. Accuracy node with the 140 in the AI is 3165 with it's 2" longer barrel.

I would take the 280 over the 270 due to the load with the 160g at 2930, it just works in several Remingtons...hands down winner with little load development...dumb butt simple.

Some of the New powders can bump the velocities with accuracy, over the loads I have listed above.

If you start off with Lapua brass in either case, work up your load, listen to what your rifle tells you in pressure. By starting off with good brass, you will be shocked at the velocity with accuracy in the extreme. The AI really shines with 175-180g bullets.

Yeah, I handload for both, near max loads. The ai will get maybe 40-50fps over the standard .280. Not enough to make a big difference, but the ai has more " cool factor" IMO.

280: my experience mirrors yours. I was just trying to understand XBOLT's comment that the 280 can't hold a candle to the AI. Seems to me that would indicate much more than a 50fps advantage. Still waiting on XBOLT. Thinking that his silence says a lot.

Load the 280 brass shoot the 280 brass - bingo..

Save powder on the fire form by using the charge 10% higher than minimum at any bullet weight - I use 120's because I have a bunch , load the bullet into the lands... Shot away..

His thinking is surely going to be that the difference between the two is usually a fair bit more than 50 fps. The fact that the AI is usually (rightly or wrongly) run at higher pressure (which a lot of AI owners for some reason seem to be able to get away with) doesn't change the fact that the difference is usually more than 50 fps.

Dude,

SAMMI

7mm Mag 61000 psi

280 AI 65000

280 REM 60000

280 AI can be safely loaded to 65000 PSI... If anyone is getting 50 FPS less from a 280 Rem vs the 280 AI they are the ones pushing the limit- not the 280 AI users.......

My 280 AI will shoot 140's all day long at 3150 FPS over two different chronographs and 150's at 3000 FPS, using data from reloading manuals below max charge with NO sign's of excessive pressure..

280 Rem will shoot 140's all day at 2890 FPS and 150's at 2850 ....

Last point..
With the 280 AI I will only trim a case one time after fire forming the batch of brass... That batch of brass will never be trimmed again in it's life span - which I retire them after 20 reloads- why? SAFETY...

I was summarizing what I considered XBOLT's argument to be. Conversely, there are several on this thread who argue that the difference is only 50 fps between the two when at similar pressure.

Only 2890 FPS with 140's in a 280 Remington??

I've run 140 partitions at 3000 FPS in a 22" Ruger tanger in 7x57.

I run 160 Accubonds at 2860 in my brother's 24" 280 Remington.

I run 150 Accubonds at 3100 in a 26" 280 AI.

A 7x57 handloaded hot is faster than a 7mmRM book load?


As Mark Twain said, there are white lies, lies, dam lies, and then there are 7mmRM published loads.


7mmRM 3.34" 140 gr nos bal tip moly 70 gr H4350 3400 fps chrono 26" barrel

Try doing that with 7x57

In my first .280, a custom built by Dave Gentry with a 23" barrel, I used initialltl worked up two handloads, all using the original mil-surp H4831, partly because I figured if it worked well in the .270 Winchester it would work well in the .280. I based my expected velocity not on 60,000 PSI-based manual data, but a formula predicting how much more velocity can be obtained at the same pressure as the .270 (SAAMI maximum average pressure 65,000 PSI) with the larger-diameter 7mm bullet:

139 Hornady Interlock Spire Point at 3111 fps.
160 Nosler Partition at 2927 fps.

The brass was NOT Lapua, but plain old Remington, and I was still using the same batch of brass a decade later when I traded the rifle to a friend.

Ive never had an issue running 140 Accubonds at 3300 FPS in a 24" 7mm RM. Can go faster but that's where the accuracy node is.

MD : Thanks for these example extrapolations. I remember ( vaguely, ha ) reading about that one.

Ok, back to Big 7 brag loads,
Could Someone please dredge up some of BobinNH’s MashBurn Super Magnum loads ?
160’s for varmints, and 175’s for game. I miss that dude.

my 280 ai will push a 162 grain eld x out of its 24 inch barrel @ 3068fps
i can't come anywhere close to those velocities with a standard 280 rem
it will push a 150 grain projectile @ jus shy of 3240fps haven't seen a 280 yet that can come close to those velocities lol so your 40-50 fps is bull shot

Not BS if both are loaded to the same pressure

Fill up(not literally) your .280 Rem with RL22 and buckle your seat belt.

I read thru this post until I got a little bleary eyed over the minutia differences tween a 280 & 280 AI. At my 77 year old age and no more foreseeable major surgeries planned, I've got time for mebbe one more new to me rifle project.

Couple years ago I had picked up well kept M70 Fwt 7x57 and thought that "mid range caliber" box was X'd off and sold the too heavy for comfort Wby SS 7Rmg that had been sitting in a corner for a couple years, but have always been intrigued by the 7mm's as a do all caliber for most Texas critters. I spent 13 years repping gun lines in the late '70's thru the mid '80's so am/was at one time more than a little conversant with trends and factory issues than some folks.

I've not used the 7x57 enough on game to make a final decision on the caliber but it makes more sense to me to sell/swap it for a 7-08 & pickup another 7Rmg and be done with the satisfying that class caliber, and forget getting into another 300Wmg. I've owned more 270's than any other caliber - still got a k+ bullets left over to reload, usually paired with a 300Wmg for any distance hunts I only occasional got to make, and since I'm not hunting anymore where the +3-400 yard shots are common I can forget the 300Wmg too...but another CZ 9.3x62 could be fun.

Keep up the "if this then that" conversation on 7mm's 'cause past their prime old folks like me can still learn something.
Ron

sakoron,

I have used the 7x57 on a wide variety of game in both North America and Africa. Offhand can think of feral pigs, Coues and "standard" whitetails, mule deer, caribou, elk and Canada moose in NA, and several species of African big game from springbok and impala to elk-sized wildebeest and kudu.

Jack O'Connor once wrote that the 7x57 works on big game from javelina to moose, so eventually I had to take a javelina too, just to see if he was right, even though I don't consider them big game. It worked.

MD, what in your opinion would be the best overall single bullet out of my 7x57 for every day average Texas sized critters, not to include Sambar or Gray Ghosts ?. I'm leaning towards 139/140 gr'ers but will need to shoot enough to decide on a given bullet. My 1st thought is NAB's or Partions, and would rather have the MV over a heavier projectile. Right now I got enough 7mm Hdy's in SST& BTSP's to get started, only because I could not find any Nosler's in that weight range in the last year or so. At my age & state grace I can't afford the time to work thru the mishmash of bullets & powder combinations like always, that I have in left over 270 stuff to come up with a go anywhere anytime for anything on 4 feet piece of ammo, and stumbled into the Hdy's at normal old days pricing.

Last January I had won a SP Axis Hunt for the last week of the season, and the only thing I saw before the weather blew us off the SP was 150/160 lb hog that went bang flop at a little over 150 yards in a brush pile from a Marlin X7S 270 & a well placed factory Federal 130 gr'er. Everything was easy peasy except to drag him out to the parking area and load him up by myself. That's the kinda job I want for the 7x57 Fwt.
Ron

In my experience the Hornadys you mention work fine for "deer-sized" game, whether SSTs or BTSPs.

I have killer many deer with a 7x57 using either 139 gr Hornady SP or 140 gr Nosler partition bullets. Both loaded over 53 gr IMR4350 to 3000 FPS. Both worked without issue but the partition seemed a little better and never caught a partition in a deer but did catch several Hornady bullets.

YMMV.

As Bart Bobbitt says, he kills deer with a bullet, not a cartridge.

Have "caught" at least three 140 Partitions in deer, but all were on angling or full-length shots--and included one pretty big mule deer buck. The most interesting recovery was from a smaller mule deer buck killed in thick lodgepole timber at around 30 yards. The buck faced me head-on, and I put the bullet in the "dimple" at the base of the neck. He dropped right there, and while field-dressing him I traced the bullet's path through the diaphragm into the guts, but despite searching some never found it.

Did the next year when I bit into a round steak, into what I thought might be a piece of bone--though we butcher all our own game and are pretty careful. Instead it turned out to be an expanded Partition. Apparently while slicing the steaks, it was right between the slices--and when they end up that far from the entrance hole do very little damage to the surrounding meat. (Have seen the same sort of thing several other times, though in those instances always found the bullet during butchering.)

AU338 Bingo ! That's what I wanted to hear, was a personal experience about how something did or did not fulfill the scheduled goal. Thank you for that.

Got another ? what brand brass were you using ? American made or something like PPU? I had bought a box or 2 each for the rifles I was taking on the SP Hunt , in PPU & S&B ammo when time got short for the SP hunt in late January in 270, 6.5x55 & 7x57. The PPU brass in 270 out of one box had 4 pieces where the spent primer dropped out of the fired round, and accuracy was not great but usable at shorter ranges under 50/100 yards in all 3 calibers... except for the Hornady SST's in 6.5 Swede, with a 4 shot dime size group 1st time it was fired at the Range's 100 yard target.
Surprised the poohwah outta me.

The S&B ammo was head and shoulders over the PPU and almost comparable to the Hornady made stuff. As soon as things get back to "normal" at my house, whatever that is, I'll start the cleanup or cleanout of all the brass I have on hand and get ready to start the cycle.

FYI There is a chain of Gen'l Merchandise stores targeted at more rural markets and has a store in the next town over from me in "Deeper East Texas" called Atwood's that is carrying Norma ammo in small amounts, but very very "competitive" prices.
Ron

That's interesting RE: PPU ammo.

It is my primary brass harvest fodder:

- 6.5x55/139 gr. FMJ
- .270 Win/150 gr PSP
- .30-06/150 gr. M2 ball
- 9.3x62/285 gr. SP

All bought in bulk, and, barring the 6.5x55 and 9.3x62, shot through multiple rifles:

Both the 6.5x55 and .270 Win shoot generally under ~ 2 MOA.

And the M2 ball, out of an M1 Rifle, generally under ~ 3 MOA, depending on the rifle.

(Don't shoot the 9.3x62 well enough yet to care about group size.)

Can't remember seein' any primer issues, either.




GR

I would pick a 7x64 brenneke, because two local gunshops have about a hundred boxes of ammo gathering dust and could probably be had at a discount. Plus it would be different.

Replaced my LH 280 Rem with a LH 280 AI kept my 280 ammo slowly fire forming it. Would rather run 280 AI at published loads than push the 280 Rem loads.

The brass used was Winchester. Dad gave me this rifle in 1983 and the 53 gr IMR4350 load was actually listed as the max load in the Hornady manual of the day. Current loads are now where near that amount of powder. When loaded, the powder was about 1/8" from the case mouth and a lot of powder crunching could be heard when seating bullets.

About 15 years ago, I decided that I would change the load in the rifle to a 150 gr partition. I now follow Mule Deer's advice on good safe velocity for a 7x57 and load them to around 2800 FPS.

Current brass offerings are limited and the last batch of Winchester brass I bought for this gun was horrible. Big variances in neck thickness and bullet runout runs from .004-.008". Nosler brass is good stuff but I'm not paying the huge premium they ask for 7x57 brass. I've bought some Hornady 275 Rigby brass but have not loaded any of it. I'm first going to try it in my brother's M70 FW, which has liked the Hornady bullets but partitions resemble a shotgun pattern more than a rifle group. But he wants to shoot them partition so....

I have never tried PPU brass but it can't be any worse than the garbage Winchester has be putting out the last few years. And at their price it sure beats $2.00+ a piece for Nosler brass.

I found Hornady .275 Rigby brass to be very consistent in dimensions when I tried some maybe three years ago, when doing on article on the "new" Rigby/Mauser rifle in that chambering.

I found the Winchester brass I’ve weighed to have the largest variance in weight of any current production brass. It equaled the worst military brass in that regard.
I’ve read many articles where the author used Winchester brass. I have to wonder what is going on at Winchester?

Since this thread is more or less off the original topic, I thought I'd chime in regarding the 7x57. Most of y'all have a lot more experience with it than I do, but I have several different 7x57s that I load for, and with two exceptions I've never caught a bullet. One that I caught was a factory 158-grain Prvi Grom that entered the front of a wild pig and lodged in the rear ham, and the other was a handloaded 175-grain Speer Deep Curl that went through one pig and stuck in a smaller one that I didn't know was behind it. Fortunately it was a two-fer: both DRT from that single bullet that I was able to recover. Everything else has left both entry and exit wounds. Granted I'm not shooting beyond about 200 yards - mostly well within 100 - but I haven't found that I really need anything larger or faster for my style of hunting ("want" being a different story altogether).

Every once in a while, though, that "want" itch will come along and I think that I might want something a little faster with a bit more reach. But I have also "Spomered" the numbers on the three other cartridges I'm always thinking about (7-08, .280, 280AI) using one of the online ballistic calculators. What I've found is that the drop and energy differentials generally bear out my anecdotal evidence; meaning that from what I can tell, the .280AI picks up about twenty or so yards of MPBR on a 7x57, loaded up to modern pressure and using the same bullet, but it generally takes considerably more powder to get there. Again, for my style of hunting it's just not worth it. YMMV.

As for bullet weights and components, my suggestion is to follow the sound advice of finding out what your rifle shoots best and go from there. I have bullets that range from 100- to 175-grains from a lot of different manufacturers, and once I know what a particular rifle shoots best I load a bunch...or at least enough to continually put pork on the table where the hunting bullets are concerned. As for brass (someone asked about it): Prvi has given me the best consistency and life, using the candle method of annealing to keep it pliable, and unless I'm trying to hotrod a load the primer pockets stay nice and snug. The nice thing about Prvi's brass is that it's not only inexpensive but also generally available when a lot of other brands aren't.

I suppose that the bottom line is that this old cartridge still does for me what it's been doing for over a hundred years: consistently putting meat on the table without splitting one's ears or rattling one's teeth. With every birthday I appreciate that just a little bit more.

RM

A hundred boxes of ammo could last more than one, or two rifles. 😃
7x64 is retro cool, kind of an Anti-CM 😈

I once had a SAUM build mapped out based upon a dozen boxes of clearance ammo. Unfortunately, the deal fell through on the donor action.
My bad 😥 and a lack of patient faith.

My 280 with a 22" barrel averages 2980 with the 160 Trophy Bonded Tip and 60 grains of RL26...and using Quickload put it at 3 fps difference at 64K....

Well...

.270 Win/150 gr. - in the same length Bbl., because it is readily available, inexpensive, already loaded hot, and can now be twisted and fed heavy, high BC bullets as well.




GR

I handled a Savage 110UL in 280AI yesterday, nice lite handling rifle, but I couldnt get passed the price tag.....

I can’t imagine someone talking me out of my 280’s - same with 30-06’s! The 280 AI is a good cartridge, but there are so many cartridges in this power range. I like 257 R, 25-06, 7mm-08, 7x57, 270, 308, 280, 280AI, 7mm RM, 30-06, 300 magnums (all but the short ones). Then there’s the cartridges with a little more power and larger caliber where cast bullets will also work.

Favorite rifles/cartridges, I think, win the position of favorite when a shooter has an exceptionally accurate rifle. Time was when there wasn’t many good bullets for certain bores but that isn’t much of a problem. I like the 35 calibers and the 375 calibers…

I recall a writer who wrote that the cartridge had to have a belt for him. Another written statement - bullets need to travel better than 3,000 FPS.

Then there was a short guy from Idaho with a big hat that was fond of big cartridges - handgun and rifle.

Another praised the 270 and yet another praised the 280

One writer wrote “Use enough gun!” (I like that guy).

Now it seems there are shooters that want to use the absolute minimum cartridge. I’m not in this group by the way!

My 700 BDL 7mm RM is very accurate as my 280’s, my 270’s, my 30-06’s and many other rifle/cartridge combo’s. For more power my 300 Weatherby and 200 grain Noslers are under 1/2 MOA. If more power is needed for me my 375’s or even my 45-90.

My point, there’s many choices and each of our experiences and our rifles make us love a certain combination. Every time we hunt we get a little more set in our beliefs that this is the best “Rifle, best bullet, scope, load etc.

280 vs. 280AI to me, I want the most accurate one.

Bugger,

"One writer wrote “Use enough gun!” (I like that guy)."

That writer was Robert Ruark. He quoted the professional hunter on his first safari, Harry Selby--who was 27 years old and used a .416 Rigby for his "stopping" rifle. Ruark had NEVER hunted big game before, which may seem amazing, but there it is. He was a bird hunter before then.

That's a nice sentiment, but Selby also used a 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine as his "light" rifle.

Could also quote a bunch of stuff from other professional hunters, but instead will mention that I wrote and published an article around 20 years ago titled, "Use Just Enough Gun"--which involved my observation of many hunters around the world who used "too much gun" for their recoil tolerance, because they'd read too much BS--including Ruark. So they believed a hard-kicking magnum was far better for hunting big game.

This article was a result not only of my observation of other hunters, but of knowing many African professional hunters and American guides, but having guided and hunted quite a bit myself. I provided several examples, perhaps the simplest of which was a European guy I was in camp with in northern British Columbia, who brought a .300 Winchester Magnum. He'd hunted Stone sheep with the same outfitter a couple years earlier, using a 7x64, which is about like the .280 Remington. But he was hunting elk and moose on this second trip, and decided a .300 Winchester Magnum was absolutely required.

When we did the standard "scope check" on the camp's 100-yard range the first afternoon, he shot an 18" group with his new .300--and required around 18 shots to kill the three animals he took--a moose, caribou and elk. He would have done MUCH better with his 7x64 with good bullets--which with decent shot placement would have been plenty for any of those three animals.

When I worked the gun counter, the comment that would always send the crew into barely contained fits of laughter was, “ recoil doesn’t bother me”.
Especially if they had worked sight in days at the range.

MD : Did your “Use Just Enough Gun” article get reworked into a Chapter of the 3 Gacks ?
I ask because my googling your name with the title is yielding everything but …

MD
I was familiar with Robert Ruark quoting that.
I’ve seen more people using too small cartridges or perhaps poor bullet choices in marginal cartridges. I am sure that there’s many people that use too large, just not my experience.
A guy I new in the service wanted me to sight in his rifle. He couldn’t believe that I kept hitting the target. Then he tried the target was taped to a 5 gallon pail. He hit the pail on about the 15th shot at about 25 yards and then quickly said, “good enough”. I don’t think it was recoil that caused him to miss, just really poor marksmanship (243). I also saw a guy in boot camp that placed the bullets in the ground about ten yards in front of the firing line. The DI’s asked (ha ha) me to get him shooting. His method was to close both eyes and jerk the trigger as the rifle was moving down rapidly. The rifle was a M-14. Again a rifle with very little recoil. He was scared to shoot the rifle and was not just trying to get out of being a grunt. It’s my believe that almost anyone can handle the recoil from a 243 or a M-14.
I knew a guy in Colorado that used a 6mm on elk. He didn’t know that some loads were not appropriate for elk, he just bought what was on the shelf. He often said that when you shoot elk you gotta keep shooting until they fall over. When he borrowed a 280 I gave a friend and the 280 was loaded appropriately he dropped a cow elk on the first shot. He went out and bought a 280 directly there after. He said that he thought the 280 was going to be brutal but was a pussy cat.
I read over and over about guys bringing too much gun and can’t shoot them well. I have never ever seen this on close to 60 years of hunting. But these stories continue. I guess that it must be true.

It's in OBSESSIONS OF A RIFLE LOONY, the book we published in 2010--and which still sells steadily.

Bugger,

I've seen FAR more hunters being over-gunned than under-gunned, probably because I've hunted a lot in areas where game larger than deer is common--and often reputed to be tougher to kill, whether elk in Montana or plains game in Africa.

One of other quotes I believe is in "Just Enough Gun" came from an outfitter I know here in Montana, who guides primarily in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, where both elk and grizzlies are common. I hunted black bear there with him one year, and after noticing he carried a .375 H&H asked if it was for grizzly protection. He said no, it was to finish off elk so many of his clients wounded with the brand-new .338 Winchester Magnums they'd bought for their long dreamed-for elk hunt. Have seen that sort of thing myself on other elk hunts here and there--including the guy cited above who brought a new .300 Winchester instead of his familiar 7x64.

Another interesting experience was a month-long cull hunt in South Africa with a dozen other hunters. (I was there the whole time; they came in a pair of two-week shifts.) Many were rifle loonies, so brought a "deer rifle" for the smaller plains game, and a rifle chambered for a bigger cartridge for the larger animals. A total of 185 animals were taken, ranging from pronghorn-size springbok to one eland and two Cape buffalo weighing well over 1000 pounds.

Within a few days the majority of the hunters had put aside their "big" rifles and were using their smaller rifles on everything, which usually meant animals up to elk size, such as kudu, gemsbok, black wildebeest and zebra. The last three also have reputations for being tough to kill.
One guy quit using his .375 H&H and stuck with his 7mm magnum. Another gave up his 9.3x62 and used his 7x57 on everything. Another guy only brought one rifle, a lightweight .300 WSM, and by the end of the safari was wounding a lot of game. In fact he shot the jaw off a kudu, which was only found after he left, and it had died of thirst.

In fact the only guy I remember who primarily used his "big" rifle almost entirely was one of the buffalo hunters, who's "light" rifle was a .325 WSM--which his PH eventually told the guy he couldn't use anymore, because the factory bullets didn't penetrate well. He could really shoot his .375, and continued to do so on everything from warthogs to wildebeest.

Of course, part of the problem was that African safaris tend to involve far more game and hence shooting than North American hunts. Guys who shot their bigger rifle just fine on the first animal or two often started flinching, partly because African safaris often involve more check-shooting to make sure a rifle's still zeroed after bouncing around in a Land Cruiser for a week or more.

But have seen plenty of it when guiding myself, which I did some in Montana during my 30s and 40s. Many times a guy who's hunted whitetails all his life in some eastern state would leave his .243 or .308 or whatever at home, and bring a brand-new magnum, because of a belief the ranges will be long, so a more powerful rifle's needed even for pronghorns or mule deer. I even loaned one guy my .220 Swift to use on pronghorn, because he could not hit them with his magnum--and by then had developed such a flinch he couldn't hit anything with the outfitter's .25-06 either.

I gotta admit I only have hunted up to Moose in size. Elk quite a bit more and the only example of a miss-sized cartridge/load was the 6mm with off the shelf factory ammo.
I did see a guy using a 375 H&H on elk but it worked for him fine.
Poor marksmanship can’t always be blamed on too much gun - in my experience it’s not enough practice. I also believe that there are hunters that shouldn’t be hunting anything bigger than squirrels with 22LR’s.
I don’t understand going on a thousands of dollars’ hunt and not practicing. If you can’t hit a basketball at a hundred yards, take up table tennis or badminton. Don’t go on a once in a life time hunt when you can’t hit what your hunting.

Having said that, I know that my 77 Ruger in 416 Rigby recoiled too much for me - instant head ache.

Thanks for locating that for me. Obsessions should continue to sell , it’s loaded with great information !
👍

If you ever want to see guys who can`t handle their firearms, please go to any range during "sight-in-day". You`ll see many.
Thats been my experience.

True that.

A neighbor asked me why I shoot so much. He said he shoots one shot before going hunting. (I have not heard if he was ever successful.) He shoots off a bench to see if the scope is right then he goes into the woods to hunt whitetail. A box of shells for him lasts a long time.
I agree whole-heartedly with Mule Deer regarding a Hunter buying a new rifle for the major hunt. Things like where’s the safety, scope eye relief, trigger pull, cheek-stock-scope alignment and recoil are all issues that should be worked out way before arriving at camp. I’ve seen shooters that didn’t know where the safety was on their rifle, how to feed the magazine, how to hold the rifle and safe handling of their rifle.
Then for their new rifle they of course need a high powered variable scope and set it to the highest power.

I also found “Opinions of Killing Power” to be thorough and most relevant. 🤓
( Gack II, Ch 41 pp 301-312 )

338rules,

Thanks. I hoped that might help some hunters!

Bugger,

Obviously there are conflicting opinions on both "killing power" and recoil tolerance. Your answer seems to be that more practice helps hunters overcome flinching due to recoil. Have heard that before, from more than a few people, but that's not my experience. Instead it's the opposite: Most hunters shoot worse the more they "practice" with a rifle that recoils too much for their tolerance.

What I have observed over decades of observation is intolerable recoil level often occurs above about 20 foot-pounds of recoil energy--which is just about the level of typical .270/.30-06 loads in an average weight hunting rifle. Which is also where some studies of recoil tolerance place it, including one done by the U.S. military many years ago.

This is also the basic opinion of two of the most experienced guides/outfitters that I've gotten to know over the years. The first was Finn Aagaard, who estimated only 1/3 of his safari clients could shoot a .300 magnum accurately enough for consistent kills. The other is John Stuver, who's been outfitting for several decades. His estimate is a little lower than Finn's, perhaps because the primary animals he guides for are pronghorn and mule deer. John says only around 1/4 of his clients who bring .300 magnums (again, because they feel .300s are more effective for "long shots") can kill a mule deer buck cleanly at 200 yards.

Many manly hunters believe recoil is irrelevant, and can be overcome by practice. But that was not Finn's experience, and is also not John Stuver's, or mine--though when I list my experience, it's not just my shooting. I have killed probably 100+ big game animals with cartridges from the various .300 magnums (including the .300 WSM, H&H, Winchester and Weatherby), the .338 Winchester Magnum (have used it on game including eland and Alaskan moose), .375 H&H and .416 Rigby--and a few others between. My observations are of OTHER hunters, and I've observed many over the decades, due to guiding and hunting in various parts of the world.

Plus, all of us have seen too many larger-than-deer animals killed quickly by cartridges smaller than .300 magnums to believe harder-kicking cartridges are necessary for for such animals, given today's good bullets. Phil has posted on the Campfire more than once that his brown bear clients who used cartridges in the .270 Winchester/7mm Remington Magnum/.30-06 category have killed big browns just as effectively (and often more so) than most clients who use "real" brown bear rounds from the .300 magnums up.

I don’t disagree with what your saying. You clearly have way more experience with novice hunters as others you’ve mentioned. But I think there’s more than recoil involved. I think the new to them (hunters) rifles, scopes etc. how the scope is set for eye relief, new higher powered scope etc has further poor influence regarding those hunters hitting the mark.
Like me, when I was hoping to shoot a Cape buffalo l, I bought a 416 Rigby. It didn’t take long for me to understand that my 375 would be the rifle I’d use. If a person practices with his/her new rifle they will be able to discern that they can’t hit jack with it and they should be going with something that works for them.
I believe that practice should tell them that.
It’s not just rifles I’m talking about. A guy that knew some friends from New York joined us on a pronghorn hunt with all new equipment including new boots (from then on AKA “new boots”.)
The hunt for him was a disaster. He was unfamiliar with what he had, he got blisters on his feet and he didn’t hit anything - he did not have a high recoiling rifle - it just was unfamiliar for him - he was always fiddling with his scope and spooking game while doing do..
Yes recoil has a portion of the equation. But practice should let the Hunter know whether or not that “new rifle” is right.
I wonder if a guy had all his life been shooting 700’s and for his hunt brought a 77 or a 70 how the results would turn out.

Mule Deer, that is one heck of a post! Spot on in my experience. Wish more would heed that great advise you have given. Shot placement trumps all, and stuff ain't hard to kill!

Thanks, Keith! That means a lot, coming from a hunter of your experience....

I’ve got a vintage 700 BDL in 7mm Express that I’m loading for off some NOS 7mm Express brass. She’s a standard 280 all day and I know she’ll perform well within the parameters I expect. I’m not throwing shade on the AI at all. Ackley did some great work, it’s taken years to fully grasp the foresight. But if the end goal is a dead animal the solution is there in our hands with some due diligence.

I’ve had 280’s for a long time. I was looking through some of my loads and group sizes different loads made.
I am now down to three 280’s - a BDL, an ADL 7mm Express and a Ruger#1. I have one 280 AI. The 280AI is on a blue printed 700 action and I don’t recall the manufacturer of the varmint weight barrel - it has the twist rate on the underside of the barrel next to the recoil lug.
I was curious why one load shot a .18” group 5 shots at 100 meters and another group 2.83” same loads & same rifle - the BDL. I looked at the brass. They were marked: “R-P 280 REM, PETERS 280 REM, REM-UMC 280 REM & 7MM EXP REM. I try to use the same head stamp when testing for accuracy, but maybe I didn’t on that almost 3” group.
I still have exactly 50 of the 7mm Exp brass and have nearly that many REM-UMC brass. I clearly don’t load them hot enough or as hot as many seem to be doing.
I set aside the Peters, the REM-UMC and the 7MM EXP brass and decided to work with the R-P brass. I weighed 70 of them and was a bit alarmed that the weights varied as much as they did. De-primed, trimmed and clean they varied in weight 192.9 grains to 205 grains. The average weight 201.3 grains. I still have more to weigh, but I wonder if I should just buy some expensive brass and just retire all the brass I have.
(The 280AI brass - Peterson head stamp - only varied 201.4 grains to 202.8 grains.)
I think that first I’ll weigh the brass again and throw away the lightest ones and temper the necks etc. But I’ll be looking for new brass.

I owned a 280 many years ago built on a Mauser action. Rifle was well put together and reliable as they come. 1 1/2 inch rifle it's average groups not usually better than that with just about any load. In fact at the time I saw several factory rifles that would not do any better than that but they were a Remington semi auto and a pump. However the rifle killed game well and if it had been built to less than 9.5 pounds scoped I would have kept it. Still I came away thinking the 280 was not an overly accurate cartridge. When my 280AI was finished I was happy to note excellent accuracy.

I used to be obsessed with ballistics and built spreadsheets comparing cartridges ad infinitum... using as an upper limit the 20ft-lb tolerance for recoil that JB mentioned, and taking into account BC and bullet weight, i decided a 150 or 160 grain bullet from a 280 was the place to be for deer big and small in North America... plenty of bullet weight and velocity and a tad more slippery than a 270 or 30-06...