The question I had about Francis Sell's idea of a short range deer gun got me thinking. I was digging around and found an article Finn Aagard wrote way back in the day about a sawed-off 18.5 inch 308 WIN Mauser that he liked to carry. He'd used it for everything-- including braining an elephant. He'd loaded with with ever load imaginable-- 110 grain to 220 grain. He loved it.

I saw some intersections with my own experience. His 308 WIN, shortened as it was, did its best work around 150 grains going at 2600 fps. He mentioned this was in the range of the 300 Savage. Indeed, my go-to deer rifle is a Savage 99 in .308 WIN that I download to around 2600 fps, only I have to use 165 grain bullets, because the 150s don't group well in my gun. My idea was to have a 300 Savage-like gun that shot easy-to-find brass.




These are Aagard's loads. Let's say I wanted to repeat his work. Given what we have and what we know . . .

A) What rifle do we start with? Today, it doesn't have to be an Israeli-surplus Mauser.
B) What length of barrel. He cut his to 18.5" but he would admit that caused some velocity loss? Should it be 20"?
C) Loadings. His loads, especially the H4895 load, spot on with my loads. However, I got to thinking: for a short barrel, would a faster powder work better? What powder? What Bullets would you choose?

I think I found a candidate rifle. I've held one, and I have to agree with Aagard, it's a sweet machine.



It's a Ruger Hawkeye Scout. I'd probably scope it conventionally.

Bonus question: Given Aagard's later epiphany regarding the 7mm-08, ideally, would you want this rifle in a different chambering?

Flip a coin on 7-08 vs 308. I like them both. I have a Tikka shortened to 18" that is magic and will be shortening a 7mm-08 Blaser R8 barrel to create a Stutzen R8. Can't go wrong in my mind.

It depends on what you mean by better. Velocity and accuracy wise the best full power loads will use the same powders as "standard" barrel length loads.

I had it in my head that a shorter barrel would have a faster powder work most efficiently. I assumed that, because slower powders seem to work better in longer barrels. That's based on my work with pistol-caliber rifles. H110 in 357 Mag and 44 Mag starts to make real sense if you take those chamberings and go from a 7.5" pistol barrel to an 18.5" carbine.

Bottleneck rifle cartridges and their appropriate powders in 16"+ barrels behave differently than a straight walled pistol cartridge going from one barrel length to another over twice as long.

Go to the Hodgdon online load data. They list 308 Winchester in rifle data and handgun data. IIRC the test barrel length drops from 24" to 15". With the typical 308 powders you won't find any major reshuffling between the barrel lengths.

Your H4895 will be just fine.

This article was the reason I purchased my Savage 11. scout rifle. Love that gun and the 308 win. 20 inch barrel. A leupy 2.5 scope scoutand it loves factory Remington 150gr CLSP. Cloveleaf groups at 100 yards. I will not be without this type of setup. It just works for me.

I have a good friend with a Ruger Scout in .308. It has a remarkable amount of muzzle blast, enough to convince me to never go shorter than 20 inches with a .308 (and forgoe the flash hider).

Some time back I ordered a Remington XCR-CTR (extreme conditions rifle in the compact tactical rifle configuration.) it’s a 9 twist.223 fluted, somewhat heavy 20” barrel, aluminum block bedded in a B&C aramid fiber stock. Everything is stainless, but some kind of black, high tech finish. Stock is kind of OD green with black specks. I put a Timney trigger in it and a Leupold 1.75-6 from the Leupold custom shop that is finished in black splattered OD green to pretty much match the rifle. It’s a very accurate and reliable rifle. My only regret is that I didn’t get a matching one in .308 at the same time. For me, that would ring all the bells for a compact, rugged.308.

I love my 700 XCR CT in 308. It is an early example which came with the 40x trigger, so no swap needed.

A LOT of folks around here hunt with 20" .308 and 7mm-08 rifles, some of which are factory carbines like the Model Seven, some of which are youth versions of popular bolt actions, and some of which are factory rifles threaded for cans or brakes. I currently find myself with five rifles with barrels from 16" to 20" in 6.5CM, 7mm-08, and .308Win. The shortest ones are threaded for suppressor use. I've only been hunting 34 years, but I've never seen a 150-180gr .308Win load produce inadequate results on countless animals shot by myself or my hunting buddies. Same actually goes for typical 140-150gr 7mm-08 loads.

If I didn't have any of them and wanted a general purpose hunting carbine that was made for handiness and effectiveness, I'd simply find a .308Win or 7mm-08 stainless 700 or T3 and cut it back to 20". I prefer the standard sporter guns over the pencil barrel factory carbines. Both examples would be light and have good odds of being MOA accurate with little fuss. H4895 is my preffered powder in both of those chamberings with light to moderate-weight bullets, and I've loaded them at full-tilt and at reduced speeds.

This pic is now several years old, but that's a cut-down 20" 700 SPS SS 7mm-08 in a youth ADL stock with one buttpad spacer installed. It's always been a super handy little killing machine. Would likely be the same in a .308Win.

shaman, don’t know if this is a real thing or just navel-gazing, but you might want to consider going a bit smaller for your cartridge selection: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8, 7.62x39, or even the .350L. You can go light, and short (20” is as short as I want) without suffering excessively from either recoil or blast, they use a lot less powder, and come in some reduced-scale rifles that are a pleasure to carry around and shoot. New bullets make smaller rounds very effective for the game found in our region. No secret here that I favor the 6.5 with 120gr Gold Dots, but it can also be used with heavier bullets to simulate the 6.5 MS, and lighter ones to duplicate original .250 Savage loads, both great cartridges for Eastern whitetails and adequate for bears I suspect. Just another way to skin that cat.

I had my one and only, no-more-for-me-thanks, 18.5” .308 about 1970. I was shooting only factory back then, but I doubt even .300 Savage-level loads would make one any more pleasant to shoot, ear-pro or not. You can always use a can, but that adds a lot to the expense and trouble, and length of course.

Fair point on barrel length. I'd not go below 20" on anything with a 308Win-ish case capacity unless it was getting a suppressor. Too harsh on the ears below that length.

Honestly, I'm not sure myself. However, folks seemed to like commenting on the thread I started on a short range deer rifle, and I found the Finn Aagard piece, and thought I'd mention it.

I'm still probing the depths of my TC Compass in 7mm-08. I'm not going to bob the barrel on that unless I have a really good reason. I also have my Savage 99 in 308 WIN. I wouldn't want to touch that ever. It was a once-in-a-lifetime find. I'm not really sure where I'm going to go next.

The one thing that keeps gnawing at me is that I've got all this 308 brass and I still think a bolt gun in that chambering would be handy. Whether I scratch that itch now or later remains to be seen.

One thing I had not thought of an y'all brought it to my attention: Right now, I don't have a gun that gives an uncomfortable amount of blast. Bobbing a barrel to less than 20 inches is going to change that.

Navel gazing? Possibly. However, I've learned that this august forum seems to respond well to the various lint and crumbs I find.

My Adirondack has an 18" barrel but doesn't seem especially blasty to me. On the other hand, an 18" AR-10 with a muzzle device is sort of unpleasant. The Kimber is a handy rifle. Normally I'd find a light rifle more challenging for off hand work, but the trigger on this one is light enough that I can shoot it well in spite of the feathery weight. I use 150 gr accubonds at 2800 or 200 gr partitions at 2350.

Kimber Montana 84M, 308 Win. is just about perfect at 22”.
Regret not buying an early Rem M700 Carbine 308 Win. at the Morris show a few years ago.

I once owned a Remington 788 carbine in 308. It was a decent deer gun but it certainly wasn’t pleasant shooting with an 18 1/2 inch barrel. I wasn’t a reloader at the time and used factory Winchester ammunition almost exclusively. As a reloader, you may be able to tame that muzzle blast some.

Nick

One of my favorite still hunting and tracking rifles was a Sav 99 in 308 with the barrel wacked to 16 1/2" tossing 180hgr RNs. I topped it with a Leupold Vx-ll 1-4. It was lightning fast and killed deer from any direction. When I moved I left it with my nephew he's still killing deer with it.

I agree on barrel length, for me, anything under 18 inched becomes too loud.

I've got 3 that suit this need very well for me:

A browning BAR stalker, from a special run of 250 with a fluted 18" barrel and open sights.

Christensen Mesa FFT lightweight with a 20" barrel.

Tikka CTR stainless with a heavy contour 20" barrel.

Of course, all 3 in 308Win.

Out of a 20 inch tube, Remington green box, 150gr CLSP gets 2750 FPS, good speed for factory ammo!

I have seven rifles in .308 Win. Barrel lengths run for 23" to 18" Still have to put the 23" gun in a usable stock.
'The 18" gun is like the 23" gun, a custom with my ideas. It's in a Lawson thumbhole stock and my guess weight is maybe 6 pounds loaded, slung and scoped. Three are Ruger M77 tangers I go into cheap over the years because their original owners couldn't make the shoot usable groups. They have 18.5" barrels Then there is the Remington ^^) with 20" barrel that was the first experience with the .308 and loud noise. Last but not least is aWinchester M70 Youth Ranger I won in a raffle at a gun show. It has a 22" barrel. All these rifle shoot quite well with the 160 gr. Speer Hot core and a max load of W760. Kills deer nice and dead too.
PJ

I've been using 18.5" 308s, 7mm08s, 30-30s, 223s, etc., for decades. They don't bother me all that much! Certainly not enough to want longer barrels on them.

A) Rem 700
B) 20-22”
C) No comment.

Bonus) I own and hunt with a 7mm-08 but I’d choose a 6.5 CM over it if I thought I’d go down that road.


So far in my lifetime I could have shot everything comfortably with two 20” guns, a 223 and 308.
S.

TAG

I would be very tempted to buy one of the stainless 18"ish Ruger Scouts. I don't own one, but have one here to sight in. Very handy little rifle. I personally like the 308 Winchester chambering in this set up. I prefer the conventional scope placement also.
Bullet wise, I am considering Barnes 150-175 grain. This may take some experimenting. Normally, I like the 20-22" barrels on bolt rifles. But this Scout seems fine. Of course the short flash suppressor adds an appearance of a slightly longer barrel.

The scout rifle set up is certainly "not for everyone" but i do like it. I practice position shooting with that rifle the most. I can keep my shoots on a paper plate at 300 yards with that set up.So it is accurate. When at the range with that rifle ,I have had the more then a couple people ask about that rifle. A few have even shot it! The rifle is a nice balance of power, weight and accuracy.

My favorite.308 is a Tikka T3x compact with a 3.5x10 scope, it has a 20” barrel, the compact has a shorter stock but comes with a bunch of spacers to change length of pull.

As a kid I had a 20" 99A in .308. It was a good rifle, very handy. Personally I wouldn't go shorter. I don't like muzzle blast.

I have a Savage 99 in .308 and a custom one in 450 Bushmaster both with 16" barrels and for thick brush hunting and quick shots at hogs out of a truck window, they work perfect for me. I have ear plugs and scope blast has never bothered me. I also used to have Ruger Scouts in .308 and 450 BM with 16" barrels but not as handy as the Savage 99's, especially for fast follow-up shots

Closest I have is a Mauser M12 Extreme Impact 308 Win. It has a 20" barrel and I would want nothing shorter.

My single shot rifles could be considered carbine length and run from 250 Savage to 450/400 NE. I hunt deer with all of them. I'll stick with the classics my Pre 64 70's in 7MM a true carbine and a FWT 358. If I were to desire a carbine length rifle of the 308 persuasion it would be a 20 inch Mannlicher stocked 358.

Agree on the 358 Win carbine. My pre-64.

This Ruger 77 MKII RLS 308 is my "if you could only keep one" rifle. It's a factory 18.5" barrel. I'm no great hunter but I've killed moose and deer with it as well as the occasional partridge and snowshoe hare. No critter that I've pointed it at has complained about a lack of velocity. I set it up with a Leupold shorty VXIII 1.75-6X and it will hold pretty close to an inch from a bench at 100 with good factory loads or its preferred hand load.

Mike, that's about as perfect of a set-up as a 308 win could be. A rugged open sighted carbine with a perfectly matched, low-power compact scope.

Shaman,
When I read the article you describe the rifle that immediately comes to my mind is a Steyr Scout rifle. 19” fluted barrel threaded 1/2-20 (weird I know, but Steyr USA has a 1/2x20 to 5/8-24 adapter for sale on their website. So with the adapter on let’s call it an even 20” barrel. I screwed a Silencerco single port muzzle brake onto the adapter. I am not looking for the brake to do much, it is the shortest way to have a quick attach / detach system for my Silencerco Omega 300 suppressor.

Since we are at the muzzle, lets talk features from there toward the back. The 19” cold hammer forged barrel is a testament to modern manufacturing techniques. It is flawless. There is a built-in bipod in the forend of the stock, it is not Atlas strong but quite handy when the need arises.

Pretty much the entire top of the rifle has a picatinny rail for scout scope work or a single slot on either side of the ejection port for a traditional mounted scope. I have tried three different options so far. Burris scout scope on qd rings mounted out front. It was decent, but did nothing well and i found it difficult to use first and last 30 minutes of the day. I then purchased a Nightforce NX8 and set it on top of ring bases in their traditional spots. My friend laughed so hard at the absurdity of it I never completed the install and returned the scope. It looked like an elephant riding a tricycle, way too much scope for the rifle.
I then went uber small and lightweight. SWFA 2.5-10x32mm with bdc reticle mounted LOW. Like so low you couldn’t slide a piece of paper under the front bell. Not a good thing as I could see half the suppressor in the scope at low power. I couldn’t see [bleep] at the top powers either due to tunnel effect and poor light gathering ability. Off it went and sold next week.

Settled on a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18x44mm scope at ~16oz so it really balances the rifle well. Now let’s talk bout the action/bolt. Super smooth, the three position tag mounted rotary safety is genius. On full lock you can press the bolt handle down against the stock and it creates a great slim rifle with few snag points. Rotating the safety pops the bolt handle out.

Rifle has a 5 round magazine along with a place for a second one to be stored in the butstock! There is also storage inside the grip cap on the stock, I keep any necessary allen wrenches, a 1/2” box wrench for removing scope if needed to utilize the built in flush when stowed pop-up iron sights.

I removed two of the three 1/4” spacers (can’t remember, maybe i pulled them all) on the stock butt and added the Steyr soft rubber recoil pad. This kept the length of pull short and added some cushion with the recoil pad vs. the hard factory one.

Finally, the trigger. Smooth and crisp, no fiddling needed. Mine was at 3lbs right out of the box. My 308 loads all seem to be where you wanted to downgrade yours to for some reason. Federal GMM 175 sierra matchkings go 2625 out of this rifle and my Tikka 20” CTR. 1980s batch of Winchester 150 grain silvertips were SLOW at around 2450 fps but they were easily sub-moa so they got the callup for hunting. Didn’t get a chance to connect with anything late last season but it will be my goto rifle this coming year. I plan to load up some Nosler 168 grain Accubond long range rounds for it. The barrel has shown me that it will shoot damn near anything under 1” unless you really screw something up.

I

I’ve found that a light and handy rifle doesn’t have to wear a stubby barrel. I have four under 7lbs, and the shortest barrel among them is the 21” on my Fieldcraft. They’re handy because they’re light enough to be carried by the grip with one hand when needed, but they still balance well. O’Connor wrote that his idea of a mountain rifle also worked well in the woods, and those were 8-pounders, not the 7lb ones more common today.

Nothing wrong with a little navel gazing, but in my case it often ends expensively.

I have a Ruger GSR in .308 Winchester. It is stainless steel and I changed to the synthetic stock to reduce weight. I replaced the sight rail with an XS system rail which allow conventional scope mounting and keeps a peep rear sight available.

The barrel is 18.7". It easily exceeds 2700 fps with 150 grain loads but could easily be loaded to reduced velocities. I would recommend this as an approach to your needs.

I owned aa 20 in barrel 99E Savage in .308 Win for about ten years. It, too would work well. So would the .300 Savage I had before that. I actually prefer the Savage performance level in a lighter rifle too.

These days, the only Savage I own is a 20 inch 1917 era TD in .250-3000. While youdidn't mention this chambering it will do a good job on most deer and has very light recoil.

My history of .308 carbines-
Rem M600 Mohawk, 18" barrel in a Numrich walnut stock.
Winchester M70 lightweight carbine-20" barrel, shot lots of deer with it, mediocre accuracy. Traded it away.
Ruger American stainless youth carbine, 18" barrel, fitted with a standard length stock. Great shooter.
Thompson Center youth carbine, just about perfect 20" barrel. Stock fitted with TC-supplied "adult" length spacer.
Remington M700 stainless synthetic DBM cut down to a 20" tube. My current woods rifle, put together as a "tree stand rifle".

Honorable mention, a .30-06 Winchester M670 carbine with a 20" barrel, a Stevens 325 in .30-30 with a 21" barrel.

For most woods hunting, I think a .308 carbine is about perfect. Good up close, but can still reach out some if needed. Usable for for bear in overlapping seasons with the right bullets.

My 42" barrel works just fine, in the woods or wide open spaces. Dang thing only weighs a few ounces over 7#.

I can't see anything good about having a high capacity magazine hanging out the bottom of any rifle used for hunting game. Maybe for shooting hogs or for culling operations, but not for hunting game.

I own several 308s with barrels shorter than 22" and find that while the muzzle blast may be a little bothersome when shooting on the range, it isn't noticeable when I'm afield. One of my favorite still-hunting rifles is a 308 in a Winchester 100 rifle that has had the barrel cut back to 17". I also have a factory specs Winchester 100 carbine with a 19" barrel and can't say that the 2" difference in barrel length makes a noticeable difference in any way. Besides, velocity loss from a short barreled 308 at woods ranges is really a non-issue, since you'll easily get greater that 30-30 velocity.

I’ve had a half dozen 660’s and 600 Mohawks in 308 since the late 60’s. Friends have talked me out of them. At Tulsa this year I found a 600 Mohawk at about $300 or more below most. It has an after market trigger. I don’t think it has been used that much. A previous owner gouged out four 1/4” squares in the stock on the left side of the receiver, not sure why.
Finally, I have a 308 600 Mohawk again. It’s not a collector piece! I’ve filled in the gouges and stained the fill ins. It’ll either be in my kids hands or my estate sale some day.
I have a M8-4x and a M8-2 1/2x that may fit on it. Right now it has the 4x. I imagine it will get more hunting in than my 26” bull barreled 700 308 or my Tikka 308.

I wouldn’t sweat ballistics. Most powders will push a 150-grain bullet 2,700 fps in a short 308, and any bullet will work at the speeds that Barnes shows for the 308 in 18” and 20” barrels at https://www.barnesbullets.com/load-data/

I’d focus on optimizing this rifle for offhand shots. For that, I’d look at balance, not barrel length. The rifle should balance as close to the front action screw as you can manage.

Most of the Ruger Scout’s weight is too far back. A conventional scope makes that worse, plus you lose that nifty little peep. A Scout scope moves balance farther forward, but the rifle still weighs as much as a classic 22” 30-06. An 18” Remington M-7 also balances too far back, with wood stocks being worse than synthetics in this respect. A few more inches of barrel is not a bad thing when it comes to balance.

Then there’s stock fit. My favorite stock for offhand shooting is the Pacific Research, which has been out of print for a decade or more. 90s vintage Remington synthetics stocks fit me well, they’re cheap and common, and they balance well.

Once up on a time, Remington made a 700 ADL Youth model in 308. It had iron sights and a 20” barrel. This one is a 243, but you get the idea. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/974853883 That would be my first choice for something like this. They also made 22” rifles with iron sights in 30-06 and 270, which handle almost as well. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/967878614

The 7mm-08 is an interesting cartridge. I’d use one in a heartbeat if I didn’t have to rely on factory ammo.


Okie John

One of the most obnoxious loud/hard kicking rifles i ever owned was a first run rugger 77 Ultralight in .308. Factory 150 Corlokt were accurate off the bench ( if i really held my mouth right! Ouch!) I managed to kill a whitetail doe around 15rds with it, but could not hit a 2 Liter coke bottle at 200 from hunting positions! Just too much of a good thing for me. Fast in the woods? Oh yeah, and thats where it excelled, 75yds and under. For me that is. Not a fan. Again, the Mod 700 Mountain rifle and the Mod 70 Fwt Classic with 22" fit the best for me, plus I can hit with them further out alot easier...unless I'm out in the "short grass" prairies...then the wind blows me/rifle/everything around to much!ha

I've made 2,700 pretty easily with 150's and Varget or 748 in an 18.5" Remington 600 Mohawk .308Win and the same velocity with 140's in an 18.5" Remington 788 7mm-08 carbine when using H4350. Both are more snorty than I like, but they are handy and effective. I do prefer my 16" single shot 7mm-08 with suppressor, as it's nearly the same OAL as those bolt action carbines but is much more pleasant to shoot.

Lobbing 145 grainers 400yds downrange with 2620-ish MV.

20” is about as short as I care to have a barrel that is chambered for any kind of high intensity rifle cartridge. Yes, I use ear protection even when hunting, but I have found myself all set up in a stand and the ear pro back in the truck.

I shoot a lot of clay target sports and I think that might make me a bit more aware of balance/handling dynamics with my rifles as well…maybe more so than the guy who shoots his rifle off the bench a lot but comes hunting season seldom if ever hunts in a manner that requires quick close range shooting in the woods. I’ve shot the larger portion of my deer with both feet in the ground and no rest. I’ve done it with some short-barreled rifles as well as a number of rifles with 24 - 26 inch barrels. (Not to mention shotgun slugs out of 28” tubes.) My preferred barrel length starts about 22”. Not to say I don’t go shorter, but I like them longer.

I don’t put much credence in the idea that really short barrels are a lot handier in “the brush.” To hear some guys talk they hunt where you need a couple of natives with machetes chopping the way through the woods for you. Believe me, having done more than a few decades of this stuff, if you can make your way through the woods walking (without a couple of natives with machetes) three or four inches of barrel length doesn’t make a bit of difference.

IMHO a short ultra light rifle in any caliber is kin to a shot barreled light whippy shotgun. Easy to carry not that easy to shoot accurately. I love my single shots and lets be realistic your most likely going to get one shot at a deer so it must come up fast but must balance well also. The weight should be betwen the hands

With this being a primarily thinking exercise, here are two charts for you. The first is from the May 2016 issue of Shooting Times, an 18” barrel AR.
The good thing about this chart is there a good amount of factory ammunition to help you establish goals for the 18” barrel.
The next chart, for a 16” barrel AR, is from the August 2014 issue of Shooting Times.
If you enjoy playing with expansion ratio or Ken Howell’s efficiency formula the two charts give more information than you might think.
308 Win 18” data

308 Win 16” data

Everyone has an opinion. W.D.M Bell wrote in 1952 that if he were going back to Africa today He would be happy with the .308 Winchester and FMJ bullets. EK on the 308

Ruger Scouts

Elmer was either clueless or trolling.

Maybe Elmer got target paid?


Been there


I got a 1920 it real glossy so later 20s is 99F in 300 savage…..

Sawed that barrel off

Crowned it…

Jim Brockman did it………

He kept telling me……

Buy Marlin ……please…

I had 100 rounds of reloads that my regular 300 savages would get sticky extractions.

So I marked em to pull the bullets…..

I sold this 99 and I was lucky enough to buy her back…..hadnt shot it 4 quite a while…..

Scoped her up bore sighted her in…

She puts them “ hot loads “ down the tube sahweet!……..

Tight.

Wondering if shorter barrels give less pressure on the action/ shooters shoulder.

About the OPS choice in firearms……

I find an extended mag limits my ability to hunt with the firearm.

It’s challenging in the scabbard…….and finding a field rest……and packing it on me shoulder

The latter, a master...

My 20" .308 is the first rifle I grab more often than not.

It simply performs without any drama. Kills everything from coyotes to elk.
Being a lightweight little rifle, you have to really pay attention to your fundamentals to get the most out of it, but it is capable of great accuracy. Typical for a Tikka.

Mackay;
Good evening to you my cyber friend, I trust you and your family are well tonight.

Thanks for sharing the photo of your little Tikka, it looks "about right" to me for sure.

While I settled on a 21" barrel for my walking around rifle, more than 40 years back my wife picked this one out of a few rifles she handled at a purveyor of such goods.

She liked the handy length and the removeable magazine. About 10 years after she bought it, one of my first stocking jobs was this rifle and now it's got a Timney trigger as well.



It shoots amazingly and consistently well. A couple seasons back when I asked if she'd mind if I borrowed it to attempt to find one of the few whitetail bucks left in the area we hunt up above the house and she said "by all means" it was again easy to find a powder that put 3 of the 130gr TTSX into an inch without any fuss.

Yes there's a fair bit of blast with a shorter barrel and no, we've never noticed it shooting at game.

All the best to you all as we head into spring.

Dwayne

Here are my 20" barrel 308s:

FWIW - I have never been a big fan of the .308 (have owned more than a few), however I have a 16" .308 with a can that shoots a 150gr at 2700+ fps. It is one of my favorite rifles that I have ever owned and would be 100% fine if that was my only big game centerfire rifle. The short barrel and can make for a very handy rifle.

My favorite for eastern hunting, a 722 chambered for the 300 Savage. The rifle will turn 70 next year, though has seen a few modifications over the years. With walnut stock and somewhat stiff barrel contour it's certainly not a light weight, but the balance and handling feel just about right with the barrel shortened to 20 inches. Favorite load is the 150 gr Pro Hunter at a velocity of 2650fps using RL-15. It can be pushed a bit faster, though with slightly degraded accuracy.

I could like that rifle a lot.

Heck yeah. That 722 is cool.

What's the charge weight?

I ordered a suppressor that will work up to .375. A 35 Whelen and my 375 Whelen AI are at a gun smith getting the barrels cut back to 20.5” and threaded. I don’t suppose they will be “carbines” but I’m anxious to give them a whirl.

45.0 gr. in Hornady cases.

Seating to a COAL of 2.680. That places the heel at the base of the short neck for grip, and still about .070 off the lands. It's a generous throat.

My 700 Classic is happy at 44 grains. I'm getting a little more speed from the 24" barrel.

The cartridges look really racy when I sub in 155 grain VLD Bergers.

That looks like an old 788, if I am not mistaken.

I had a 6mm Rem version of one of those. Good little guns.

20" 308 660 in a Brown stock, Decelerator.

There are things I hate about it, but it's my "best" gun.
There is some blast, some flash in dim light.
It's light, handy, quick.
I shoot it in the field better than anything else I own.
Keep trying other stuff, looking for "perfect", always go back to that 308.

My favorite hunting rifle for a lot of years was a Rem 660 in 308 also. About all I ever shot in it were 165gr Hornadys. Took it to Alaska one year working and loaded it with 200gr Hornadys for bear protection where myself and a couple friends went fishing, never had to use it. All the years I used it it had a 2 3/4x Denver Redfield widefield on it. Son didn't like the scope and replaced it. That scope is now on my 30-06! love that scope! Somehow my son ended up with that rifle and I took him pig hunting this year and he borrowed my 25-06! I don't get it!

A very similar set-up:

It started life as a .243 LW version and eventually grew into a .308.

It had a pencil-thin barrel at first (both .243 and .308) but I finally realized that it was too "whippy", so I put a McGowen Precision 20" #3 profile on it, adding some weight but doing wonders where it was added--out front.

McMillan stock with 12.5 LOP, both epoxy and pillar bedded and a Timney trigger were added.

I can bump 2700 fps with 165 grain bullets, and when I haven't drank a pot of coffee, its' bench groups are great. I've shot it quite a bit out to 400 yards, but after that I wonder if bullet expansion would be what I want. I don't think I've shot a deer past 70 yards with it, though.

It's pretty much become my favorite bolt rifle for hunting deer around here.

Heres mine. Tikka T3x Lite 308 cut to 20" and threaded dropped in a tikka hunter stock with 1" cut off. great little all around rifle. Just got the can. It usually wears a muzzle brake.

I’ll bet so. Earliest of the “improved” cartridges. Just imagine if you gave it a longer neck, reduced to 6.5mm and came up with a catchy name.

I call the little 300 the original short magnum.

I’ve always enjoyed the carbine type rifles. My lust for them was fueled by Bob Milek in a “Shooting Times” article many decades ago. In the article, he took a .308 Remington Mohawk rifle and customized it to his liking. He made a bolt release, new trigger guard, sawed off the ventilated rib, and put it into a Mannlicher stock, with muzzle cap, pistol grip cap and buttplate. I carried that magazine around for many years but my finances never allowed it. I did find a very nice REM 600 in 243 and bought it from my next door neighbor. When I married my second wife,I had a heart attack 6 months into the marriage and couldn’t work for several months. I had to liquidate it and other gear to eat. Later, I found a Ruger 77 tanger RSI in 308 for $300 and it was only 2 weeks old and returned to my local gunsmith. I still have it and the 3 sons argue over who’s gonna get it when I'm gone. Also have a Winchester M70 Carbine in 30/06 that fits me well. I had another but had to sell for a down payment on my youngest son’s classical guitar. Also have owned a Remington 742 carbine in 308 that was sold after my heart attack. Did have Winchester 94 Trapper also. I just enjoy my carbines for walking around rifles and hunting from stands. Very noticeable if you touch off a round at dusk. My hearing was already bad from being a scout in ARNG and shooting every thing they had available. The barrels were 20”, 18.5”, and 16.5” all very handy. I liked the 165 grain bullets in the 06 and the 308. I primarily shot old REM Corelokts HPs in 170 in the Trapper. I used
2 x 7 Redfield on the M70 and a Burris made Browning 2 X 7 on the Ruger, and also have used Leupold 4X on them.

Dunno if it qualifies as a carbine, but Eileen's "big" rifle for the last 15 years has been a lightweight custom .308 with a 21" barrel, built by what was then named Serengeti Rifles of Kalispell, Montana, and is now Kilimanjaro Rifles. It was built on a Kimber 84 short action, and weighs 6 pounds, 9 ounces with scope.

The first time she used the rifle was on a South African plains game safari, with 150-grain Nosler E-Tips handloaded to around 2850 fps. She took several animals, the biggest this zebra, which weighed around 800 pounds. It was dead from the first shot at around 150 yards, but was stumbling downhill toward her and the PH, so she gave it another.



The last animal she took with it was this cow elk, at around 250 yards with a 130-grain Barnes TTSX handloaded to the same velocity, since her recoil headaches had increased in sensitivity. It went around 20-25 yards, obviously dead upon impact. It was the biggest cow either of us have ever taken, as large as some mature bulls.

Here's a Model 660 in 308. Apologize for the bad pic. Probably should have kept this one.

600 Mohawks didn't have the vented rib, the original 600s did.

There are actually some non-cataloged factory built Remington 600 Mohawks with Mannlicer-style stocks out there that were sold through U.S. military outlets in Europe.

That's a fine looking Zebra

Never had a .308 rifle. Did use a 6 barreled version quite a bit. I forget a lot these days, but the one trick I did with that one will never be forgotten. Big tree, maybe 125'+ tall. Cut it down with three bursts. I'm pretty sure the dink in the observation platform near the crown crapped his knickers. It's a great round, no matter what you call it.

Hunted for years, killed all kinds of stuff with a 17" barreled 30-06, RU 77 Tang that cost me $80, used/abused, and chopping off the muzzle bulge. First animal killed was a ram at @ 330 yards. Killed a caribou at @ 375 yards a couple years later. Several moose under 100..., a couple black bear. "Carbines" don't give up much.

If the 22" take-off factory standard 270 barrel I put on as a replacement doesn't work out (working on it, not too happy with its accuracy to date), the Stub is going back on. That thing predated Ruger's carbine by about 10 years. And I have confidence in it - it's just short, loud, & punchy.

Eileen liked it a lot!

She wanted a zebra on her first safari, for which she used my Ultra Light Arms .30-06, but "only" got a big kudu, gemsbok, blue wildebeest and red hartebeest. So she had to go back and get the zebra on her second safari....

In my youth I cut many barrels to 19 inches long. Why I picked 19 inches I can't remember but the 7x57, 35 Whelen and a couple of 223's never caused me any troubles. Nowadays I prefer somewhat longer barrels having several 22,24 and 26 inch barreled hunting and paper punching rifles. This because muzzle blast bothers me more than it used to.

I shoot my 16" 308 win patrol rifle alot. I like a blast directing muzzle brake that points the noise down range and it's virtually no different than a 22" barrel. The 308 is a great round. I almost bought a 7mm-08 once, actually had one ordered, but switched to 308 when purchased. Ultimately decided in favor of component availability. 308 win is everywhere

i wish i could post a pic. my brother shat a record book black bear with an H and R/ sako 308 mannlicher. aweosme balance.

Used the lefty Ruger scout 308win rifles in 16" and 18" versions from the beginning and they're a goto for me. Mine are set up with conventional magnifying optics, and presighted red dot for front rail, and NECG detach rear iron sight. Three types of sighting arrangements on one rifle.

I like that scout rifle a lot, even with shorter barrels and if your going to run a suppressor than it's even better. Reliability has been amazing with mine but I did have to polish up the action as it was rough. Still , it feeds fine and extracts perfectly. Even in cold and freezing rain it's worked perfectly whereas the Tikka T3 choked and froze solid as did my pump shotgun, and single shot firearms and even my leverguns failed badly. So that's just my experiance and I'll admit that I'm extremely biased toward the scout, and the Ruger compact series of rifles.

Here is my addition.
Rem 600 .308 in what I think is a McMillan stock. Still needs a little polish. She is lively but feels good in the hands! I have not shot it enough as to comment on overall accuracy potential but definitely "minute of bear, elk, deer, etc." at 200 yds.

That's a beauty!!! I think you were right on your "should have!" We all have a few of those...

The Ruger RSI is another candidate and a good looker but it's not something one wants to take out and put a beating on and rough up.

My little M600 walkabout in 308. The stock was a much abused 660 stock that I shortened and sanded the heck out of. I really like the results, both slimmer and lighter. I took the pic early in this last season while out for a stroll. Because of all the physical issues I've developed at age 74, I just can't stalk hunt very much anymore, but I did enjoy that trek. The 18.5" barrel is perfect.



Late in the season I was meat hunting over some corn on my BIL's place and this little unicorn spike came out. I chose to neck shoot him to avoid a long drag and the BIL's game cam caught a good action shot. This was actually the M600s first kill.

Hook, can you say lights out?!

What gun do you want to "..take out and put a beating on and rough up..." ?

I've been hunting over 60 years now, birds, small game, waterfowl, deer, caribou, elk and probably a few things I've forgotten about. I've hunted the Carolina Low Country swamps, northern tundra, Rocky Mountains, Great Lakes region.... Hunted on foot, horseback, skis, snowshoes, out of trucks and quads and boats... I've trapped water and predators. I've never found it necessary to "put a beating on and rough up" my shotguns, rifles or handguns. I've got some pretty decent guns. I've got a number of them I've had for decades and used a lot. Do they have the occasional little dent, ding or scratch? Yeah, but very minor, used but not abused. I've never understood this idea that, somehow you have to abuse your equipment when you hunt hard. I do know guys who have guns all beat to hell, but it's just laziness. There are a few guys I duck hunt with who just put their shotgun in the bottom of the boat with the decoys and everything. Why? You're not going to need it when the boat's underway. I put my shotguns or rifles in a floating case when going by boat, especially in sketchy circumstances.

For me, stuff has always been hard enough to come by that I take care of it.

I also have a Remington 600 Mohawk in 308 and have had it about 30 years. Great handling woods rifle. The last 5 years or so I’ve also been using a TC encore with a 22 in 308 barrel. Liking that more and more, handles almost better. I think it is lighter than the bolt actions and shorter

cra1948,

Have noticed the same thing--and have done a lot of "rough" hunting with a lot of different rifles, both synthetic and wood-stocked--some with very nice wood.

Two points:

1) Some people seem to think beating the snot out of a rifle is proof of something--but dunno what.

2) Many hunters don't understand how much a stock made of good, hard walnut will withstand dents and dings--partly because they've never hunted with such a stock.

I took my mannlicher stock off my 308w RSI and put it away with the synthetic Ruger UL getting the nod for woods work. Great little carbine. It was my favorite treestand rifle for whitetail when I lived in VA.

I am currently putting together another smaller 308 carbine for one of my sons that is similar to other rifles in this thread. A stainless Tikka T3x lite with the barrel cut to 20 inches, youth stock and an Aimpoint H2 on top. Will add a Sterk bolt handle when they become available again.

If you put them in a plastic stock and put the wood safely away like I did with this 250 Savage they make a nice stainless RLS. Or a KRLS in Ruger speak.

My choice for a short bbl’d .308.
Sako AII 18.5”. Leupy 2.5x8, Barnes 150 gr TTSX over CFE 223

I had one of those in .375 H&H Mag. It was an accurate SOB. I think it was called the Battue model ???

Very nice.
A blessing to hunt with that nice rifle.

Ive got it’s big brother in .338 as well, I haven’t shot it enough to determine its accuracy or likes. If I draw a moose tag this fall, that will change.

Well this thread is making me rethink selling my Remington model 7 in 308 Win. The chart on page one shows there is only a little over 100 fps loss with an 18.5" barrel and my model 7 groups well at 100 yards. It's just that it kicks the [bleep] out of my shoulder because it's so light.

Beautiful rifle. Wood selection and layout are especially good for a heavy kicker.

Do you suppose Brownells reads The Fire Tealeaves?

Steyr CL II SX is what Im looking for.

Had a Ruger boat paddle, proly shoulda kept that one.

Mine at 20" plus 6

I saw a 600 in .308 at a pawn shop in Tuscan about 3 years ago. I took a look at it and it showed some serious signs of being someone's abused truck gun. Scratches on the metal and the stock looked like it had been shined with barbed wire. I seriously thought about rescuing it and sending it home but decided against it. It had potential but they wanted way too much money for it for me to have it shipped home and then transferred. Dang it was beat up.

kwg

A simple solution would to be a Rem 660 in 308. They have a 20" barrel, the contour is fairly stout in comparison to the original 600. They are fast handling and the 660's I have owned all balanced well. All you would have to do is adjust the trigger, put a scope on it and you would be good to go.

Another, perhaps even better, solution would be a Tikka T3X and have the barrel trimmed back to 20".

drover

I’d use a Tikka platform if I were to be looking today. That said, my old 77RL with its skinny 20” in .308 has been a gem in the woods that I’m not sure I could improve upon. My load for a run of the mill 150gr Interlock uses 44gr if IMR 4064

Good luck Shaman! I think you’re onto a great idea.

Shaman,

Give this a look:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...cs/18019346/sisk-rifles-308#Post18019346

Another, perhaps even better, solution would be a Tikka T3X and have the barrel trimmed back to 20".

drover



A better solution would be to just buy the T3X compact. It comes from the factory at 20 inches. If the compact stock is not wanted, they sell quickly and full size stocks are cheap.

Yep, another easy solution for sure.

drover

Probably not what you are looking for, but for several years I hunted with a .308 Styer Mannlicher full stock carbine with 20" barrel made in the 1960s. Very handy and effective, and maybe slightly on the heavy side, but it's kind of old school take on the scout rifle with nice wood and that famous ultra smooth action and ultra reliable rotary magazine. I wish I still had it.

I have a couple Rem. 788's. 308 18.5" barrels. Shoot any bullet any powder decent. But I have bigger guns so these 2 just shoot
150 grain bullets. Any brand. Same load. 45.5 gr. Re-15. deer hogs moose bear pronghorn. always been enough.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...m12-308-steiner-g3-for-sale#Post18371769
I’ve got this one for sale here. It’s a great rig.

Got on gunbroker.com a couple of weeks ago and found one of these. Quick tests with nine factory loads average 50 fps slower than in my 22” M-700, or about what I’d expect for lot-to-lot variation, temperature shifts, etc. In other words, no meaningful difference.

This rifle loses 100 fps with two handloads: a slowpoke to mimic the 30-30 for shooting little deer in thick brush and a screamer using the Barnes 130-grain TTSX. The slowpoke still falls squarely into 30-30 country; the screamer is faster than any 130-grain load that Federal lists for the 270 Winchester.

Average three-shot groups with these nine loads is 1.28 MOA with a 4x Leupold. Without the worst group, it’s 1.12 MOA. A more powerful scope would likely improve that.


Okie John

If you aren't doing it already you might want to try a target optimized for the magnification/reticle/distance combination. I've shot quite a few five shot, sub moa groups with 4x magnification by doing so.

I have found that 'circles' for DOT sights and 'crosses' for reticles really helps take 'ME' out of the equation....... for lower power scopes/sights at distance...

feel free to copy and use.....

Muffin,

Have mentioned this before, both here and in my two books on hunting optics:

The basic optical rule is that 20/20 human vision (which is average, not perfect) can "define" about one inch (or MOA) at 100 yards, which means we can see alternating black-and-white lines half an inch wide. Beyond that the lines tend to look gray--as do zebras at, say, 500 yards.

This means that an optically good 4x scope can define about 1/4" at 100 yards--meaning there's about that much optical error in aiming.

This also means, as mathman pointed out, that the aiming point must also be appropriate for the reticle.

The error can also vary with the individual shooter's eyes--and how well the scope's adjusted for parallax, which for the smallest groups needs to be checked as well.

But the basic deal is that a 4x scope can add 1/4" to the average group size, while a typical 3-10x set on 10x adds 1/10"--if the parallax is corrected, and the shooter can shoot. This amounts to a difference of about .15 inch in group size.

The math is pretty simple for 15x, 20x, 30x etc.

easy route is a 700 ADL with tupperware stock.

Leave it at 22" (easy)

buy 500rd case of reloadable FMJ (easy)

buy 3 cans of spray paint (customize the stock every season, or every month if you must)

if you want to play around (it sounds like you do) pull 10 or 20 bullets, weigh the charge, find the average, figure out what ball powder they are using, reduce charge as needed and replace bullet with hunting bullet of your choice.

If you fire the rifle 500 times, it will be more deadly and more perfect, than any rifle you could buy, build or modify, and shoot 40 times.

22" better than 18" for noise. cheaper than a 4" can, quicker, and just as long.

Not kidding about the Tikka, weight, and fundamentals.

All my rifles can outshoot me. If not off bags. Even then..sometimes.

Seriously considering adding weight to the Tikka.
It's just too wobbly off hand.

.

Marksmanship sling?

Talking a while back with DarlaG on here about the 7600 Police in .308 with a 16.5 inch barrel, he told me when you shoot one, "Ducks and geese fly back north for the winter!" I still want one, though. I think the rear peep was by Wilson Combat and did not use the rear scope base screw holes so, you could scope it conventionally if you wanted. I have no issue with my 18.5 inch barrel .30-06 7600 recoil-wise as a hunting gun. It's not fun to shoot from a bench, though. Carbines are fun and quick-feeling to carry and hunt with. I'd go 18.5 if I were you, Shaman. Cool project and thanks for introducing me to Sell.

1eyedmule,
I had one of the 308 7600 police carbine rifles. I bought it brand new back in 2006, upon return from my second Iraq deployment.

It was the most inaccurate rifle I've ever owned. 6-8 inch groups with everything.

It jammed occasionally.

It was very heavy for what it was.

No, you couldn't keep the Wilson combat peep affixed if you mounted a scope.

mainer in ak, That doesn't sound good! Hopefully, you kept it. I think, they're worth a small fortune now.

I had an 18.5” Remington Model Seven in .308Win. I found out that I didn’t like the pencil barrel and the muzzle blast. Replaced it with a 22” Winchester Featherweight also in .308Win.

A little longer and a little heavier suits me better. The Featherweight with an Aimpoint or a Leupold 1.5-5x20mm is about the same weight as a Marlin 336 and the ergonomics for me are much better. So that’s my answer to a handy carbine, especially with an Aimpoint micro on it.

Lately I’m even starting to think a 24” sporter with a McMillan Edge and the Aimpoint Micro might be even more my speed. Holds steadier, even less muzzle blast. I can carry a 26” 20 gauge 870 in the woods all day for grouse and call it a handy upland gun, but suddenly 24” is too long in a rifle? Go figure.

Oh good grief your Sako full stock rifles are pure sex appeal to me. I love that look as well as 308 and 338win.

Funny how stock shape. weight distribution can affect a rifle. As mentioned earlier, my first 303 carbine was the first run Ruger Ultralight. Hard kicking, hard to shoot well, felt muzzle light. My buddy has used his Browning BLR 308 since HS and loves it. Fast forward many years and I played with a gorgeous '81 BLR in 358Win. It "should" have kicked harder than my bids 308, but was very nice shooting! Of course, had a fine pad added, but still. It felt a tad heavier than the Ruger, but the weight was further back between my hands. All 308 carbines are fine hunting rifles, no doubt. Have a ball pards!