Not too long ago I picked up a Rossi 92 44 special/44 magnum carbine with 16 inch barrel
What I want to do is use a 200 grain RNFP lead bullet at under subsonic velocities from the lever action Carbine for a relatively low recoil low blast fun gun to shoot.

If anyone can give me a a good load of powder with the 200 grain lead bullet I would really appreciate the info as I don’t have a chronograph.
Or if someone would post a page from a reloading manual with load data with this info I would appreciate that as well.

I am wanting to use the 44 Special case if the carbine will function well with them but if it won’t then I woul be ok with using a 44 magnum case to get the same performance.

Thank’s

Do a google search for the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3d edition.

Hodgdon online.

Hodgdon Has 44 Magnum rifle data but not for the 200 Grain RNFP.
EDIT,I looked again and there is in fact rifle load data for the 200 Grain RNFP 44 Magnum
Hodgdon Does not have any 44 Special Rifle data at all.

I found it and downloaded it ,interesting read but no 44 special rifle data and 44 magnum rifle data was too high in velocity.

I wouldn't be too concerned about "rifle data." Just find a 200 grain .44 Special load that meets your requirements and go with that.

Hodgdon shows a bunch of .44 magnum 200 grain LRNFP loads that run 800 to 900 FPS from a revolver. They show a bunch for .44 Special with that bullet that run 750 to 900. Yes, you'll probably get a bit more speed from a short rifle barrel, but you need to consider that if you back down too much you run the risk of sticking a bullet in the bore, which can take a lot of fun out of an afternoon's shooting.

The thing about it is that a 44 special that ends up being supersonic from the carbine barrel aint meeting my needs.

Of course neither is a bullet that sticks in the bore !

That is why I am asking for info or data for especially the 44 special as that is what I really want to use if the rifle will feed them well.
.
I dont want to use a wild azz guess method especially where reloading is concerned.

First, I don’t think using Hodgdons data for a cast, 200 grain RNFP in the .44 Special constitutes a wild azz guess.

Second, I think it’s unlikely, given the small charge weights involved, that you’d see a gain from 750 or 800 fps to supersonic going from Hodgdon’s 8 inch barrel to your 16” barrel. The only way you’ll know for sure is to try it. You could be a long, long time finding published data for.44 Special or Magnum, subsonic loads out of a 16” barrel and, when (if) you did, they’d probably be no different than what Hodgdon is showing.

Wow. What do you think this is the main general section of the forum? You might want to apologize.

Load 5.0 grains of H-Clays, buzz one over the chronograph and thank me later.

Bet it’s accurate too……

Indeed wow
What I said is a general way that people express not knowing exactly the way to do something.
It is not an insult in any form or fashion regardless of which forum it is used on.
Appologize to who ?
I did not insult anyone in any form or fashion.

Just a generalized statement that is used often in todays world. Often used to denote the lack of 100 percent certainy.
Example : I looked at my gas gauge in my pickup and although it appeared very low I took a WAG(wild azzed guess that I could make it home before I ran out of gas,Ie I did not know for certain that I could make it home.
Now that is not an insult to anyone in any form or fashion.


Perhaps you are just looking for something to be insulted by "if" you or anyone else are "honestly" offended by that statement.

I've been shooting 200gr. RNFP bullets in both .44 Special and .44 Magnum for more than 25 years now, my charge in either is 7.5gr. of Unique. If you shoot many .44 Specials in your rifle you'll get a lead build up
similar to shooting .22 shorts in a rifle chambered for .22 LR. A practice not to be recommended as the lead/fouling build up is hard to remove and may get to the point that .44 Magnums won't chamber.

"I dont want to use a wild azz guess method especially where reloading is concerned."




Study up, genius.

First ,I am sure that Hodgdon's Data for a cast ,200 grain RNFP in the 44 Special does not constitute a wild azzed guess in and of itself.

BUT, for me to take it upon myself to assume that the 44 special load data Provided by Hodgdon will stay subsonic from the carbines barrel and will safely exit the barrel with a low powder charge would be a WAG or wild azzed guess on MY Part.NOT on Hodgon's Part !!

IF Hodgdon had load data for the 44 Special when shot from a rifle whether shot from a 20 inch , for 18 or 24 inchbarrel then I would use it but they don't .

I cannot use Hodgdon' data to see if there is no difference in what Hodgdon's Data indicates these things regarding the use of their data for the 44 special in a 16 inch,18 or 20 inch or 26 inch barrel Because they show NO data for 44 special when shot from a rifle barrel !
None ,zip, zilch Nada

So for me to assume anything from a 44 special shot from a shorter handgun barrel and apply that to a rifle is in Fact ME (not Hodgon)would be taking a WAG or wild azzed guess on my part and( as I said) I wont do that when reloading.

Might work Maybe work? Probably work?

But do I know those things for sure without proof?data/experience?
No
As it is probably a given that if I knew already I would not have asked in the first place.

I have no proof or data or experience using a 44 Magnum or a 44 special from a Levergun with a much longer barrel which is why I asked the question in the first place !

I am not sure who this statement is directed to but if is me all I can say is that is why I posted the question and it would be in fact a wild azzed guess for me to assume that 44 special load Data from a pistol is going to get me what I want from the carbines barrel.

If not directed to me then disregard my reply

Back in about 1974 I used just 2 powders,Unique with the same load for powder puff loads and 296 for hot hunting loads.

If that were to happen I would wrap a piece of steel wool around a bore brush and get it out,if I wanted to use 44 Magnum ammo .

Again. Look at the H-Clays data.

Shoot it over a chronograph. Bet a dollar 5.0 grains is over 750fps (so a CAST bullet should always dribble out if the barrel) and under 1,100fps so it’s not supersonic. If it’s too slow, add powder. If it’s too fast, subtract powder.

I’ve not played with it in a .44 mag but have with a .45 Colt in an 16” Carbine and the two behave similarly.

I am ASSUMING you own a chronograph.

I dont have access locally for the clays but every now and then HP-38 and Titegroup can be found and Bullseye,up until a year or so I could find Unique.
No ,as I said in the second paragraph of my original post I don't own a chronograh.

5.5 of Titegroup would be what I’d load right now.

That is a WAG based solely on my experience. Anything you do without a chronograph based solely on someone else’s rifle is a WAG.

Then I’d get on Midway and order a chronograph so I could shoot it over it by this weekend if I hurried. Then I would KNOW.

Hodgdon has data for SS 200gr .44 mag carbine loads on their site. It took all of maybe 30 seconds to find it.

Loading for a carbine to sub-sonic levels could be tricky, especially if you also have a pistol in 44. A sub-sonic load in a carbine would probably stick a bullet if shot in a pistol, so you would need to keep them separate.

Sub-sonic reloading almost REQUIRES a chronograph. Look here and do yourself a favor: Competition Electronics ProChrono

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,248
eastern arkansas
Originally Posted by BRoper
Hodgdon online.

Hodgdon Has 44 Magnum rifle data but not for the 200 Grain RNFP.
EDIT,I looked again and there is in fact rifle load data for the 200 Grain RNFP 44 Magnum
Hodgdon Does not have any 44 Special Rifle data at all.

Not what you're asking, but I found that shooting .44 Specials in my S&W 329PD caused a noticeable powder residue build up in the cylinder to the extent that .44 Magnum cartridges wouldn't chamber properly without scrubbing the cylinder. It only took one session to break me of that habit, so I have loaded .44 Special performance loads, 900 fps with a 240 grain SWC, in .44 Magnum cases to shoot in that revolver. The S&W 329PD is a nice revolver to shoot with 900 fps loads and is much less fun to shoot with full power .44 Magnum loads unless the situation is such that you need to shoot them in such a light, carry a lot and only shoot a litte, gun.

Well, I was hopin that someone had a link showing the 44 special Velocities when fired from a rifle.

I did find some from a link to Hodgon Cowboy Loads from years ago when they still had it
up on the website.For 44 Special 200 grain Pistol and 44 magnum rile.
But it did not show any data other than Max loads and max pressures.
I will try to find the Link and post the results Here tommorow.
Here is the link
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/cowboy-action1.pdf
Notice that they also list the cowboy Loads but do not tell whether that are fired from a pistol or a rifle


I could buy a chronograph but I hate to spend the money on a chronograph when I can buy Powder ,Primers,bullets ,cases,dies with the money.
I am in poor health and do not shoot near the amount I did whene I was younger.I will soon be 64
It does not seem a wise investment for the ability to see the velocity of a couple of loads Using the same 200 grain RBFP bullet.

And how would I know if a cheap chronograph would be showing the correct velocity as compared with a much higher quality chronograph,that a another source of data shows ?

I said that I did not own a chronograph and I dont and never have.

But have used a chronograph that a buddy had about 15 years ago and that thing was showing In consistant velocities with 30-30 Factory ammo,405 Winchester Factory loads,22 Rimfire ammo shot from both Pistols and rifles ,Encore 30-06 Pistol of mine(fire breathing heavy recoiling beast) and a 7mm Magnum Encore pistol with a 16 inch barrel owned by my friend,When shot in a sitting position in foot high sagegrass would set the grass on fire!
I dont remember the brand of chronograph but it was one from Midway that cost less than a 100 bucks.

I found an old dogeared Speer #10 Reoading Manual in a forgotton place and it shows 44 Magnum rifle data but all the data is for 200 grain jacketed bullet and the lowest velocity is 1,487 fps using Herco,no help at all.

Yes I can use 44 Mag brass but would really like using the 44 special brass as that will give me at least 1 more ammo capacity than the 44 mag and when I shorten the Magazine spring a couple of inches then I will be able to get a total of at least 2 more cartridges in it ,not a huge deal but that is only if it will function well with the shorter 44 special ammo.

I have had a couple of the 3 inch Charter arms 44 special pistols and like the novelty of shooting 44 specials from the carbine!

If ,and (I doubt it),I ever would want to shoot 44 Magnum factory ammo from it(maybe for deer hunting) I would first put some steel wool around a brass cleaning brush and clean the chamber before shooting it.

But more than likely, I would just use the 44 special load and limit my shots to around 50 yards.
I have killed deer with 44 Magnum Pistols but never with a 44 Special Levergun !

I have killed enough deer in my life that If I never kill another one It will not bother me in the least, but if I do
I would do it within 50 Yards and good shot placement.

I dont Have a 44 Pistol unless you count the 2 Pietta Remington New Army's that I have.
One with a 8 inch barrel and one with a 5-1/2 barrel.

I used to use the 200gr. RNFP in my 20" Rossi carbine. I used 8.5gr. of Universal Clays to get 1200fps. out of that combination. Just like a .44/40, which is what I wanted. Duplicated the .44 WCF and I got to use carbide dies when loading them.

I found that I couldn't use Keith SWC bullets in Magnum cases, but I could, using Special cases, yet another benefit to using Special cases. I'd "guess" that 7.O Universal would do what you're asking in Special cases, but I don't have the Rossi any more, and that's just a guess (a GOOD guess, though). If you can't find Universal, you can use Unique, but you'll have to clean it a lot more often, Universal is really clean-burning stuff. Rossi's are pretty tempermental about cartridge OAL, and bullet shape.

Good luck!

Thanks for more information on using the 44 special cases.

I am intending to use the Round nose flat point for hopefully good functioning in the Rossi.

I also have the Carbine's twin except in 38 Special/357Magnum and it was working with HSM 158 grain RNFP but not as smooth as Federal 357 magnum JSP.

I took the Carbine apart and taking a fine peice of emery paper took of a few rough places ,then after using a lot of cuss words that I did not even think I knew, finally got it back together.

It feeds them better now but still not as good as the Federal 357 JSP .

I am going to cycle the Carbine another couple of hundred times and see what it is like then.


Now to the powder
It is my understanding that the Powder has been called by several different names since it in first came on the Market.
Is the Universal Clay's thay you mentioned in your first paragraph the same Universal Powder that you mentioned in the second paragraph ?

Thank's

I have never considered loading anything other than 7.5 grains of Unique.


I wasn't sure if you were allowed to.

I dont know if the 7.5 Grains of Unique will stay subsonic from the 16 inch carbine barrel,do you ?

At my age and temprament ,I am pretty sure that I dont have to be ALLOWED to anything as I do what I want to do.

Now if you are real sure that the 7.5 grains of Unique and a 200 grain rnfp from the Carbines 16 inch barrel will stay subsonic ,then I will try to find some local and if I can't find some Local will go online and try to find some at a good price(Maybe with free Hazmat if I can find it.

IME, there have been very few .44 Special carbines, only IIRC a Henry or 1866 replica or two, similarly to the situation with ones in .38 Special. In addition, 92 and their clones have a reputation for being finicky about cartridge OAL, so the demand for the data you seek is probably pretty thin. Add in the buildup problem mentioned by 260, and the whole notion becomes IMO less than compelling, certainly not worth the time and effort to develop by a load manual publisher. If you’ve tested your rifle for function with the shorter rounds and and want to soldier on with your idea, have at it. I’ve fired some Hornady swaged .240gr .44 bullets in my Browning Low Wall .44 mag over Trail Boss with pretty good results, but there was some leading, and the POI is so much higher than full-power loads I have the open barrel sight set for those, and use the tang sight for the hot ones, another possible complication for you to deal with. Leverguns.com might have some info for you.

https://leverguns.com/

IME, Trail Boss works very well, in addition to being almost idiot-proof (important for Boomers like me), but is very hard to find right now. I’m down to maybe one jug myself.

Good luck.

P.S. I only use magnum cases in my LW as the shorter ones probably wouldn’t increase its capacity very much 😜

Get the Lyman reloading manual. It has loads not only for handgun but for rifle/carbine also, from 200 grain to 265 grain and various sizes in between. It also lists various powders from various manufacturers, minimum and maximum loads. Don't know if the Lyman reloading handbook is on-line or not, but it is the best reloading manual out there because it does list various powders and bullet sizes, not just from one company.

Yep, same stuff, Universal Clays and Universal are the same thing.

Yea not a lot of 44 special carbines ,I think the maybe the 1873 ,and although a man might have to piddle with different brands and models, 44 Magnum carbine or rifle is a potential 44 special shooter.

Those low wall's are some good looking rifle's.for sure
As far as the leading goes Have you lapped the bore to make sure it is smooth?
If not then you could do it real easy just by rolling your bullets in a fine lapping compound which would imbed the lapping compound into the bullet and then use a small amount of powder to try and get the bullet to just barely exit the bore.
Probably easier to start out with a load that will guarante that the bullet will stick in the bore.
Drive the bullet out and add a little more powder until you can just barely exit the bore then shoot 5 or more and youre done with it.
This ensures that the the bore is a little smoother than it was and makes the tightest part of the bore is at the Muzzle as the Bullet is slowest right there and there is less lapping compound left on th bullet as it gets to the muzzle.
I have used this method on Handguns per Veral Smiths (LBT) Instructions.
The smoother bore will lead far less and maybe none at all.

As far as the Mag capacity goes it might not increase the capacity but might find that the 44 special recoils a mite less with the Specials especially the 200 grain bullets as opposed to the 240 grain bullets.


And you will have less weight to carry and think about how much faster you can reload using shorter rounds !!! LOL

Thanks
I bet if they tried really hard that they could make things even more Diffic
ult for handloaders to understand !!

Try 22.5 grains of 296 to spice things up . So at 63years old you are ready to take the dirt nap? I am 79 and still hunt Elk . $100.00 for chrony is too much to know what is safe in your rifle ? You probably will not live long if you keep guessing at what is safe . Good luck,I think you need it . Huntz

How in the in the Hell , do you even remotely come up with me wanting to take a dirt nap from this conversation ?

The chronograph is not what makes a load safe or not, it merely shows Velocities.

I am Just trying to establish which Powder is going to remain subsonic using a 200 grain RNFP bullet when shot from a carbines 16 inch barrel.

So your reasoning capability tells you that , it is a good rational thing to say that you suggest using 22.5 grains from a 44 special to spice things up ? Really, to remain subsonic? Which is the gist of the post...
Really !!
Well bless your heart

The money that I mentioned for a chronograph would be to Verify that the Bullet,case ,powder charge ,barrel length combination is indeed less than supersonic in velocity.

And the chronograph will only tell the velocities after the fact .
The safety of load data is should be established BEFORE shooting it.

Man ,your legs must really be sore ,from all the wrong conclussions you are jumping to.

More than likely, you are just a Troll or you just woke up and saw a message on your phone that demanded your input and did not read the thread in its entirety or you really dont understand what is being discussed here.

The leading was minor, and easily removed. Miroku barrels are pretty smooth. Those swaged Hornadys aren’t really designed for speeds much over 800fps, and the long barrel probably doesn’t help. Recoil’s not a problem, although you gotta watch how you shoulder that pointy butt.

x2 with Pappy348 on the >>> Trail Boss.

gnoahhh will be along soon to fuss about how expensive it is…..😛

The real problem now is finding it.

Actually my conclusion is that as long as you were talking stupid ,so should I . You ask for reloading opinions and got some good solid information and reject everything offered to you . Why ask if you have already made your mind up ?Not using a chronograph to find out actual MV is plain stupidity.If you are not willing to verify your MV and pressure you obviously have a death wish.

I am not talking stupid ,Your obvious lack of cognitive skills are why you are
not understanding and coming to your Erroneous assumption ,Which in turn leads to your irrational 'conclusion'

I have gotten some good advice from some posters.
I have not 'rejected all advice ' as you try to say.

I have not asked a question when I already made up my mind.
Just because you suggest so does not make it so.

As far as use of a chronograph or not is concerned ,when using long established load data from reloading manual's there is Little danger from not using a a $100.00 chronograph to verify the Velocity that a powder company that has a much better chronograph and actually have the ability and equipment to test pressures.

Therefore when using this type of reloading data there is no real danger to NOT using a cheap chronograph to verify the results of a powder company.

I am looking for Real data to stay subsonic using a 200 Gain or a 240 grain from a 44 Special case from a 16 inch barrel, plain and simple.

I will be using an appropiate powder and a mid range pressure as indicated by a reloading manual.
I will not be using anywhere max loads so the danger of being overpressure are slim to none.

Obviously I am NOT looking for a high velocity load so the example that you used to use the 296 load was said to prove to Yourself and others who read it that I was on a death wish.

I see that you have not commeted on this thread or offered any help or suggestions on this thread
Only things that you have commented on was your ludicrous suggestion for the 296 load and my 'Death Wish'.

I could continue to discuss these thing's

BUT that would be merely more of a waste of my time trying to communicate with you .

As It is obvious that you have not added, nor the intent to add anything of a helpfull nature to add to this thread/
Your comment's are that of the Typical Troll that has nothing to do but try to trash a thread and to do your best to stir chit.