I’ve been reading all I can regarding heavy hard cast bullets for bear defense. I understand they penetrate very well. My question is, why not a heavy FP FMJ (I’m thinking 200gr. from a 10mm, 147gr. 9mm)? Is HC lead really that much better? I understand heavy FMj’s may not be an option for big bore revolvers, but I would guess most people just want to use the same gun they use for defense against two legged varmits!

Just thinking out loud!

Thanks for your replies in advance,

Elk Country

Lead is slicker so it’s easier to get higher velocities, which helps advertising

FMJ ammo found in most semi-auto handgun ammo can be unreliable when it comes to straight-line penetration. In addition, the flat tip and "wadcutter" shoulder on most hardcast designs do an excellent job of crushing bone and tissue while providing the desired penetration abilities.

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn’t a slicker bullet create less friction and less pressure, thus less velocity?

Flat point fmj’s usually have soft lead cores and thus will deform fairly quickly compared to a good hard cast flat point.
F01

And often, fmj semi-auto ammunition has a somewhat smaller metplat (more taper) than cast bullets designed with a wide metplat. The wider metplat causes more tissue destruction than does the tapered bullet which tends to push the tissue aside.

However, you must make certain that you get reliable feeding with those cast bullets! memtb

Any bullet caster can make a hard cast bullet.

In general I see cast bullets as free velocity.

Yeah I think this is the answer but I carry 147 flat nose fmj's for Black Bear. Again, not the same thing as Brownies I know

First, I have not had to fend off a bear attack.
Second, my knowledge is based off reading first hand accounts.

Most if not all that have experience share the idea that penetration is key. Hard cast, wide metplat, heavy for caliber is the common recommendation.

Penetration tests are quite interesting and fairly easy to find these days. Surprisingly, with the correct ammo choice, most common pistol calibers used for self defense have heavy hard cast ammo available.

The 10mm is getting a lot of press, but the .45 Super can be loaded to .45LC levels and be quite adequate, again with proper bullets.

The main issue seems to be hitting the animal under duress, and bullet choice.

Shooting 180 grain Gold Dot at 1330 FPS in the 10mm and 230 Gold Dot in the 45 Super penetration is equall, but the Super expands to a much large diameter

Shooting flat point hard casts the larger diameter also leaves larger wounds

I agree, but those GDs won't penetrate as deep.

I have a couple of molds making heavier weight bullets; one in .358" and the other for the .44 Mag. The ,358is a 200 gr. round nose that I chased down to make some bullets for an old deputy sheriff I was friends with. I'd have to run out to the shed to be sure but IIRC it was a Lyman 358430. The .44 mold was an Elmer Keith type semi-wadcutter with gas check, 300 gr. in weight that was a special order from RCBS. I loaded the 38 bullet in .38 Spl. for my friend but never really used it for anything other than to try on paper. I've often wondered how it it might work in the .357 mag, The .44 caliber bullet however was never accurate for me,the main problem being it [bleep] at least 6" high in ever .44 Mag. or special I tried it in.

On the other hand, the Lyman 358156, a 158 gr. semi-wadcutter did work on a Black Bear back over the 4th of July weekend 1959. Bullet was cast from cleaned wheel weights and the gun was an S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman, a .38 Spl. on the 44 frame (N frame). Two shots behind the ear worked just fine. AFAIK, the bullet was probably about 11 in the BHN scale. Wheel weights today that are stll lead based I've had to add stuff like linotype, a bit of tin and a measured amount of #9 magnum bird shot. As cast they run about 11 BHN, a level I like for most use. Water dropped and aged for about a week and they become around 19 BHN. I can oven treat them at 400 degrees for about 4 to 6 hours and then water dropped will age harden to around 30 on the BHN scale.

Truth be told, I rarely bother to make the bullets harder than 11 BHN. When I was physically able to hike the desert or local mountains, the .44 Mag with Elmer's bullet and load was quite sufficient for any need. About the only hazardous creatures around were the rarely seen Mountain Lion or the occasional Black Bear. No encounter ever ended up with any kind of confrontation. Usually they looked and turned tail. That suited me just fine.
PJ

I'm sure such loads could be made and would work. I don't think they have been.

Obviously metal plating a hard cast should penetrate as should any other coating. I can say that in my experience existing bullets most especially military ball type don't penetrate that well. Certainly in factory loads and factory equivalent handloads in handguns. I have no knowledge and limited experience in such pistol bullets from a rifle.

Never shot a bear and won't by choice for what I consider sufficient reason. If I intended to in open country then I'd use something like a .375 rifle; my choice for wandering known high activity bear country though it's all bear country to some degree. In a .38/.357 handgun I like the true Keith 173 grain from wheel weights as I cast it and heat treated and I would cheerfully use that on black bear over bait or from a .35 Whelan One of the most memorable meals of my life was cooked by a recent immigrant from China who did her traditional family recipes with bear in place of pork and I don't condemn those who shoot bears.

As we all know one expert recently chose a 9x19 as adequate for the task and it worked. Another respected gun writer assures us that in the last need a rim fire worked for him and will do the necessary assuming the aiming point and impact is the tear duct. A heavy FP FMJ is no doubt adequate for the job - all the more in practiced hands. If you want a blessing to use what you have I'll say it: use what you have.

HC lead really is that much better among existing loads if penetration is the sole criterion IMHO.

As noted for reasons of using familiar equipment I've tried a .460 Rowland in a 1911 and a switch barrel 9x19/.357 Sig/40 S&W. I found penetration from the semi-auto pistols quite disappointing compared to hard cast from a magnum revolver - I think the N frame is maxed out at .41 Remington Magnum so that's what I own and tested; bigger cartridges need bigger guns, too big for me.

With the same powder charge, yes. But increasing the charge to reach the same pressure as a jacketed load gives you more velocity.


Okie John

Not always that linear & logical either. Often lead obturates better, creating a better seal & raising pressure.

This is the general trend in published, pressure-tested handloading data that shows the same bullet weights of lead and jacketed bullets with the same powder charges.

Several years ago a discussion occurred on this forum that eventually involved similar issues. I mentioned that anybody who wants to compare results should check out Hodgdon's on-line date, where a number of cartridges show data with the same powder and cast and jacketed bullets.

One thing that frustrates me in these discussions is the us of terms such as "Hard Cast" We have scales and available tools to at least get a comparative measure. So when we or a supplier states something is Hard Cast does it mean 10brn, 15brn or 25brn. Or perhaps it means our fingernail will not scratch the bullet. Rant off

Good question. I bought some Federal American Eagle 147 FMJ FP and tested them against my 147 hardcast fp +p handlods. They have a similar or identical profile to my hardcast load and their velocity was in the +p range (over 1,000 fps). They penetrated in wood deeper than my handload hard cast. It would be good to test them in a softer media as well, but as to your question, they seem like they could be a very good option for what you're describing.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing

Where are you in Northern Colorado? If you are close by, we could test it. My only comparisons between soft lead core bullets and hard cast/mono metal solids are in the sub-optimal defense caliber of .380, and hard cast and xp/xd rounds punch through stuff that soft lead core FMJ and JHP ammo in the same caliber can't penetrate. (Rather impressive, actually.) I have a variety of 9mm, including +P hard cast and standard pressure mono-metal, but I do not have a 10mm. I do have a .40 S&W that I could get some hard cast and mono-metal ammo to test against FMJ or hollow points I also have a .45 ACP and some Buffalo Bore 255 grain +P hard cast ammo and some standard pressure JRN ammo. A suggestion of inanimate test media from esteemed forum members would be welcome.

Just thinking out loud.

Cheyenne. PM sent

"As noted for reasons of using familiar equipment I've tried a .460 Rowland in a 1911 and a switch barrel 9x19/.357 Sig/40 S&W. I found penetration from the semi-auto pistols quite disappointing compared to hard cast from a magnum revolver - I think the N frame is maxed out at .41 Remington Magnum so that's what I own and tested; bigger cartridges need bigger guns, too big for me."

I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you up to a point. I have an S&W M629 .44 mag and it couldn't hold up to Elmer Keith's pet load of 22.0 2400/240 gr. bullet. S&W fixed the gun twice and said no more. Total rounds of ammo between the two repairs, 250 for the first time and 200 for the second time. The gun is semi-retired.


On larger guns, I have a couple of Ruger Redhawks, a 5.5" and a 7.5" and they're just too damed heavy for this old fart to pack around. I will say they handle the more stout loads quite well.

"One thing that frustrates me in these discussions is the us of terms such as "Hard Cast" We have scales and available tools to at least get a comparative measure. So when we or a supplier states something is Hard Cast does it mean 10brn, 15brn or 25brn. Or perhaps it means our fingernail will not scratch the bullet. Rant off"

You know? I never thought about it that was probably because I cast my own bullets. I kind of worked out an alloy that works for me. It's a bit complicated as the harder the alloy the greater the chance of the bullet shattering if it hits something like very hard bone. My alloy casts out air cooled to about 11 Average on the BHN scale. Water dropped from the mold works out to about 19 BHN by age hardening about a week, Or, if I want extreme hardness I bake them in a toaster over at 400 t0 450 degrees for a minimum of four hours. Long is better but four works for my purposes. At the end of the bake I water drop them and let them age harden for a month. Average hardness plus or minuus one BHN is 30.

Probably my preference for most use is the 11 BHN bullet. I've never tackled anything like a bear with the .44 but the few deer I've shot with the bullet have all been pass throughs so I have no idea what shape they ended up. Bullet is the Lyman 429421, Elmer's bullet.Nominally 240 gr., mine run to 250 gr.
PJ