I've had some interesting conversations with some companions about "hunting preserves" offering various exotics (pigs and sheep usually). What struck us in these conversations is that the area is usually just a few hundred acres (640 acres = 1 sq mi). Given a wild carrying capacity of around 30/sq mi (is that a reasonable number?) and 6 or 7 species, it seems they may not have enough area to keep a breeding population... or don't they? Do they import and release animals just prior to a hunt?

Dan

Dan, From what I have read, the answer is yes and no. Some do and some don't.

Those in the know, hunt the largest preserve they can find!
And ask all the questions that bug them before hand.

Some Texas ranches are extremely large for example, and some
midwestern places are less than 640 acres!

I prefer hunting a nice marmalade myself.

I'm guessing that most all hunting preserves supplement the game's diet with food plots, grain, hay, etc. Just like raising livestock...

Mostly I agree with you, but damn, some of those Texas spreds
defy that definition.

What about African hunting? Double standard? Drive around in a truck with a guy that lives near the herds until you find a couple thousand animals and then shoot one?

Please guys, no flames. I don't know [bleep] about African hunting and would never make an ethical evaluation without having been there!

By the way don't most southern hunters and many northern hunters have food plots. I guess it's a matter of where you draw the lines, eh?

Now importing and releasing animals just prior to a hunt. That's where the real question arise, right?

Ever been on a european pidgeon hunt?

Most eastern operations are just a few hundred acres -- less than 1 sq mi, or right around there. Knowing how pigs breed, and how many deer can be carried before it starts to get crowded in the northeastern habitats, it would be hard to imagine a herd of self-sustaining bison, 6 or 7 different kinds of sheep (that aren't interbreeding, btw), and various other 'critters. That's when it hit me that the animals are likely being cycled through the property as hunters show up. I don't know how long the animals are there, but my sense is that it isn't multiple generations... or am I wrong?

That doesn't include Texas ranches that are much, much larger. It really does make the point that Texas operations ARE different from those with much smaller lands. But then, the amount of land required to sustain species can be radically different as well, depending on water, amount of food available, predation, etc.

Operations in the Republic of South Africa that I've hunted are multiples of square miles (25 or 26), with sustained breeding populations. Licensing requires population limits to be consistent with carrying capacity. But numbers are higher than you'd find in deeply wild places. Depending on species, real effort is put in; some species (springbok, for example) don't seem to be managed (whatever is loose). Similarly for bushbuck, and kudu from what I saw...

I'm really not out to bash various operations. The question really is focused on how an operation with just around 1 sq mi *has* to operate? I wonder whether a forester would be able to tell the difference between the impact that a sustaining breeding population of pigs and the pig population that passes through one of these operations?

Dan

It varies by preserves & some are canned hunts. I have hunted the YO & while its high fenced & managed the game is free roaming & a challenge to hunt. Is a whitetail taken there the same as open fenced ranches or farms, certainly not. The ranch I hunted in RSA was over 35K acres & was definately a free roaming hunt. I was once booked to hunt an estate in Europe & was told by the booking agent that I might consider this a preserve. I asked the size & was told the front had a stone wall 91/2 miles long & the back was blocked by a river. This was about the size of many of our counties where I hunt. Most of us are more interested in the quality of the hunting experience rather than the biggest rack on the wall. For those that are estate hunting is available.

I like to hunt preserves. I normally set the jar (Smuckers is the best) up on a stump at about 200 yards and use a flat-shooting, hard hitting combo like a 160 grain partition out of my 7 Mag. Last time I connected, there were strawberries everywhere, hanging from the trees.

Beat ya to it there Smokepole.

There are exceptions, but most of the preserves located in my home state of MI are put and take.

South Africa operations are not put and take except for lions. Breeding animals may be imported to establish themselves, and even fed during prolonged droughts, but then the hunts are fair chase. An exception is that a minor industry of put and take lions got established. The government passed a law making it illegal to hunt lions which had not lived and roamed free for two years.

Danged if you didn't, Roy.

But if you're going to bring marmalade into the picture, don't leave out the other member of the "big three"--blackberry jam.

I get goosebumps just thinking about it.

I have hunted one "preserve" in the Texas hill country that had to bring in most of the animals simply because of the number of "hunters" they run through the place. Finding game was not a problem. Stalking and getting a clean shot without buying/killing 2 or 3 critters was the tough part. These were some spooky critters as they are chased daily.
Is it worse than shooting a deer under my feeder? I would say no. In fact I think it was harder and definately more fun than sitting in a blind all day.
The best part was I was with a group of guys from my church, two of whom had never hunted. You take a newbie fishing you take him where he'll get some action. Same goes for hunting. Knowing there is plenty of game and opportunities made this a great place to get a newbie interested. And when you can all stay in the same lodge it just adds to the experiance. Now, if you go some where and you can see all the fences from one point I would go elsewhere.
JMHO, but I feel they have their place.

I will absolutely not hunt quail on a preserve. I've seen guides have to use the toe of their boots to get the birds to flush. Pheasants will at least run, but they too often offer too easy a shot.

Dan

I'm not a big quail hunter, but one trend that I appreciate is that there are a growing number of places in the south that manage the habitat for wild birds. No put and take.

Here's a little more context...

The NY State Assembly passed a bill, A2612, to modify the current restriction on preserve hunting. Current law prohibits hunting exotic species in a pen smaller than 10 acres. The full text of the clause looks like:


{}=language deleted; BOLD FACE=language inserted.

The phrase "OTHER AREA" is open ended -- no limit whatsoever. It occurs to me that, when hunting, that if you take an animal, there is always some moment beyond which the animal has no chance to escape. If a successful hunt is at all possible, then the "OTHER AREA" exists -- if only for a moment and in a particular circumstance -- such that the animal cannot escape. Fair chase hunting has to do with exercising skills to move from easy escape to that moment when there is no more chance. A guaranteed hunt removes that exercise of skill. As written, the bill does not capture the distinction between fair chase hunting and "canned hunting."

Maybe another example makes it clear: pheasants are not native to the American continent. They were introduced. Land use changes and changes in agricultural practice has made it necessary for the state to stock pheasants for hunting. Almost none of them survive the season, much less until the next year: there is no means of escape, even though releases typically happen on public lands without fences.

I am curious what your take on this bill is?

Dan