Mule Deer mentioned in the 280 Ackley thread


I can understand that there isn't going to be enough ballistic improvement to justify having this done, but I recently acquired a fairly nice 1903A3 Springfield actioned rifle, as well as Mule Deer's former dies, in this caliber and have a question or two.

1. Since there is little to be gained does that also mean that there is little to be lost firing standard 35 Whelen rounds in a 35 Whelen A.I. chamber. I am thinking this would only be done in an emergency. Lost ammo etc.
2. What is the actual difference in case capacity and is the oft accepted practice of starting at max loads for the parent case valid?
3. Would the increased shoulder in the A.I. chamber be a slight advantage over the standard version?

So, bottom line, is there really any disadvantage in owning a rifle chambered for the A.I. version over the standard version in 35 Whelen. I am thinking that just because this rifle has an improved chamber, it probably makes little sense to rebarrel to the standard Whelen as little would be gained, or lost, in that exercise. Is my thinking on this correct or flawed?

Many thanks

I don't have an AI rifle that don't shoot just as well with non AI brass. Have even killed a critter or three with non-AI'd brass in an AI chamber.

In a Whelen it means going from 2500 to 2600fps (at best) with a 250gr slug, I dont think its worth the bother. In a .223AI I feel the speed and lack of case trimming for high volume work at worth the effort.

Actually I imagine 25-50 FPS might be more realistic.

Reloading one is about like reloading the other and unless there is a lot more powder needed to reach the same velocity, which there may be, with the A.I. as the standard I can't see much difference.

As stated at the begining I agree that to spend money to convert to the A.I. would not be practical. My real question is whether or not it is a big disadvantage to own the A.I. version?

varmintsinc,

Actually it is a rare "Ackley Improved" round that will gain 100 fps, with everything else being equal, namely pressure and barrel length. And this normally involved cases with sloping bodies and relatively small bores compared to case diameter. To gain 100 fps in a modern round capable of 3000 fps or, powder capacity must be increased at least 13% or so, since potential muzzle velocity only increases at 1/4 the rate of powder capacity.

For instance, two AI rounds that gain 100 fps or maybe a little more are the .250 Savage AI and the .300 Weatherby, which is essentially the .300 H&H Ackley Improved. However, each of these cases APPEARS to gain a lot more velocity than 100 fps, because the factory ballistics (and pressures) for the .250 Savage and .300 H&H are so low. Which is exactly why so many AI rounds supposedly gain a lot more than 100 fps.

Most handloaders also load them pretty warmly. They also tend to get custom AI rifles built with longer barrels. Put together a slight gain in case capacity, higher pressure, and a longer barrel and there are some gains. But load both rounds to the same pressure in the same barrel lengths, and it ain't near as much.

All of this is why the .35 Whelen AI doesn't gain much over the standard round, certainly not 100 fps. There isn't much gain at all in case capacity, because the case itself is already prestty straight, and there's almost no shoulder to blow out.

When I fooled around with the .35 Whelen AI, I found it gained about 3 grains in powder capacity, or about 4.5%, over the standard version. This translates to about a 1.1% gain in muzzle velocity, everything else being equal, or about 28 fps if we base out estimates on a 250-grain bullet at 2500 fps.

This doesn't mean the .35 Whelen AI is a bad round. Some people claim it headspaces more precisely than the standard version, and thus is more accurate. Maybe, but I suspect the real reason is that .35 Whelen AI rifles tend to have custom barrels, and are owned by meticulous handloaders. But it is still a fine round, certainly at least as good as the original.

Sorry, but you are so new here I am going to have to see a pic of you with said dead critters before I can buy that.

I'm not bitting.........

A refusal! I thought I was a better fisherman than that, but have always had the hardest time of all catching a steelhead.....

Ackley designed his Improved cartridges to minimize body taper and have a sharper shoulder as a way to improve powder capacity. Some got higher velocities and others did not do so well. I believe that the 35 Whelen AI falls into the latter catagory as there is just not enough extra capacity gained in the powder room.

The most significant aspect of Ackley's designs IMO is that he kept the headspace datum at the same point as exists in the unimproved cartridges, so you can fire standard rounds in the Improved chamber. Here's the good part - if the rifle shoots well, keep the current barrel and save $300+. You can buy standard 35 Whelen dies for $35 or so and have a rifle that shoots both catridges

Many thanks for the info Mule Deer. Your figures are about what I thought would be the case and maybe even a tad more for normal loading. I am now a bit more anxious to find out what my rifle will do.

I have a Whelen AI, but it was a new tube so cost wasn't an issue, a bit extra for the dies. I had that rifle built about 15 years ago, at the ripe age of 21-22, so I had only been handloading centerfire for around 7-8 years and had no idea how little gain was involved when both versions where loaded similarly..wasn't much readily available info on either at the time...that I knew of anyway.

With a new barrel I'd do it the same again, cost a little more for dies. You are going to shoot the rifle a bit to break in the barrel and see what it does anyway..why not be forming brass. Mine shoots the Remington factory stuff into some pretty small groups if I needed to use that ammo in a pinch, but it would require a serious re-zero due to the weak-titted loading. Five full power loadings, after forming and trimming, and still no need to trim the brass is nice if you want to shoot the rifle regularly.

I get some pretty good velocity out of mine, but as JB said, it does have a 25" barrel and I do load it to it's potential.

Now if you ever anticipated the need/want to sell the rifle, I would certainly go for the standard version. Another issue with mine, your rifle may differ, was that it required some work to make it feed smoothly in AI form...where it fed the original 30-06 rounds quite well.

I have very limited experience with improved rounds, owning exactly one - a 338-06. Practically speaking there would seem to be very little justification in improving an '06 based cartridge if increased velocity is your holy grail. On the other hand there would seem to be little reason not to improve. In my own situation I wanted a 338-06 & I wanted it on a model 70 classic action. This meant a new barrel & all the associated costs of rebarreling. The dies cost a bit more but that cost was only a drop in the bucket. One must be a handloader but that is hardly an impediment to all on this site. You must also fireform your brass but, again, that is no burden as most of us will (or should) practice with your new weapon. You are always left with the option of firing the parent cartridge should you lose your improved ammo.

In the end you are left with a cartridge with a touch more velocity potential or you can opt to run at standard velocities at lower pressure.

If you are of such a mind an improved cartridge is fun, very slightly more powerful &, above all, different. What's not to like?

MD,
I should have clarified, Im perfectly comfortable getting 2500fps with the 250 in a standard chamber. My reference to 2600fps is based on the common number many with the Whelen improved claim to get. When ever I ask about the pressure they are getting there does not seem to be as much info available. Even if they are getting 2600fps regardless of the pressure it is a whopping 1" flatter at 300 yards.

Todd

That's kind of what I assumed. There are indeed a lot of claims about the extra velocity of AI rounds, and these days they are undoubtedly true, thanks to cheap chronographs. But pressure and barrel length are another part of it.

A few years ago I hunted caribou in the NWT and one of the guys in camp had a .35 Whelen Improved, a custom rifle that he'd had built with a 27" barrel to "burn all that extra powder." He claimed to be getting over 2800 fps with 225 Ballistic Tips, and why not?

I have nothing against AI rounds, and indeed generally have a rifle chambered for one. I like not having to trim brass, but am not crazy about fire-forming, especially in a big game cartridge. Yeah, it's easy to do while working up loads at first, but if you shoot much brass does wear out and eventually you have to do it all over again. And there can be feeding problems, one reason my latest AI is a Ruger No. 1. Come to think of it, it's a .280 AI that uses already-formed factory brass!

On the other side, my friend Stevie Dogzapper loves AI's, but then he has been retired for a while and needs something to occupy his time.

Idared,

I inherited a 35WAI from my father. It was a gun he was very partial to. It was built on an Interarm action. I can't recall his exact data and don't have it handy at this moment...I'll be glad to share what I do have from his writings. IIRC, the gain over "book performance" was nominal...about 75-100fps. Dad wasn't known to load below max much. If you want, PM me and I'll share what I have. I know he was partial to R-15 in it. He whacked a nice bull elk in Montana with it several years ago and said it did a nice job.

No, he's not...as if you didn't know. *grin*

bitting?

Dumb Question,

Why no trimming with AI cases?

Several years ago I met a fellow named G (Gary) Sitton at the Tucson Rod and Gun Club (now defunct, thanks to tree squezzers and bunny higgers) I am sure many of you know his name from his many gun magazine articles. We became friends and I truly miss the man.
Anyhow, Gary had a 35 Imp he was chronographing and I was a bench or 2 away (basically we were the only ones shooting at that time) He heard my new, un blued 35-284 going off and later asked what I was shooting, I told him, he said, how fast are the bullets going. I told him I had no idea as I was just test firing the gun. Gary said I could shoot over his Oehler 3 screen chrono if I liked, I was happy with the opportunity to see the velocities but told Gary, I would prefer he do the shooting as I didn't want to be responsible for hitting a screen. Gary got my 225 gr velocities at both sides of 2700 fps with my load of 53 gr of 3031.
I was actually shooting loads that equaled his 35 Whelen AI by a few fps. At any rate we got to be great friends, at least til his death. RIP Gary.

A good portion of the reason for less trimming is that the case usually shortens up when fireformed.
The contention is that the sharper shoulder unhibits the forward flow of brass. I have not had the problems many do with stretching cases (except in Lee Enfields). Until I actually run a comparison of my own, I'm not prepared to say it is or is not effective. I only know I can shoot my 303 target rifle (built on a P14)at least 8 times with one piece of brass and no trimming is required. I had thought of rechambering it to the 303 Epps and doing a comparison but it shoots too well as it is to mess with it.
Often, the owners of AI rifles are better at setting their sizers up and this will account for some improvement as well. GD

I have only fooled with about half a dozen "improved" cases, and all required little or no trimming at all, especially when compared to the parent cases. My guess is that the steeper shoulder does inhibit the flow of brass somewhat, but also PRECISELY headspaces the case in the chamber, thus preventing brass common among some rounds.

I know that I NEVER had to trim brass in my .257 Roberts AI, and do every 3-4 firings in standard Roberts rifles, even if the brass is only neck-sized. Also, I have yet to trim .280 AI brass, even when it is new from the factory Nosler stuff.

By the way, the .300 and .375 Weatherby rounds act just like AI rounds, preventing much stretch, especially when compared to the .300 and .375 H&H rounds they're based on.

I have heard this often enough that I can't really dispute it and it makes a certain amount of sense. I just have not verified it with a controlled test. I have had experiences with cases which are supposed to be "stretchers" and found them to be not so bad so I question the reason for the stretching.
For instance, the 303 British case stretches; not because it has lots of taper and a shallow shoulder angle but because the rifles it is most commonly chambered in are stretchy. The 270 Winchester is purported to stretch pretty badly but mine does not.
One fellow came into the shop with a 6MM Remington which stretched cases badly. It turned out the boltface was badly off from perpendicular (about .004"!) and the brass was stretching to fit the bolt. Each time it was fired it had to do this and the brass ended up stretching rapidly.
I suspect the more precise headspacing afforded by the sharper shoulder may well have more to do with any reduction in stretching than anything else does. After all, it makes little sense that the rounded corners of the Weatherby shoulder would inhibit brass flow. It does make sense that the case is more positively headspaced.
If one was to test a standard 30/06, for instance, and keep track of the amount of stretching; then rechamber the same rifle to 30/06 AI and repeat the test; the results would have some validity. One would have to be sure and just partially size the cases to insure the shoulders were not touched and load similar loads in each. I've got a bunch of old 06 barrels just taking up space. Maybe I'll try it sometime. The rimmed 303 or 30/40 could be used to test the precise headspacing theory. If closely fitted, the rim would take the shoulder angle out of the equation as far as precise headspacing was concerned. I'm too busy now but maybe this summer sometime.GD

I am with you on the .303--and that there are other causes of case stretch.

In fact, there are two common causes of case stretch even without considering the design of the rifle itself. One is the lengthwise stretching caused by sizing. The other is actual forward flow of the brass.

The first is exacerbated by a mismatch in sizing die and chamber. Unless cut by very carefully made custom reamers, both vary somewhat. If you combine a relatively small sizing die and a large chamber, brass will stretch noticeably with each sizing. This is purely a matter of forcing the larger case into a smaller space: The brass has to go somewhere. I have experienced this with several rifles, most notably a .270 that I eventually had rebarreled to 6.5x55 partly because of that problem.

But some cases do have a tendency to stretch more than others, due to brass flow. Those with longer, sloping shoulders tend to do so. And it is indeed a matter of brass flow. This is proven by the thickening of necks, especially at the base. This is normaly diagnosed by sticking a bullet in the necks of fired cases. If the bullet doesn't want to slide in, the necks are thickening somewhere, and it WILL cause problems.

Whatever the reason, I have indeed seen much less need to trim cases in the "improved" rifles I've owned, as well as some factory rounds with sharper shoulders.