I am interested to know what Paul Mauser, (I think that was his first name) knew and how he came to know it. The cartridges he dreamed up, 7X57, 8X57, 6.5X55 were some of the first smokeless cartridges invented and are still very popular. I own a 7X57 and 6.5X55 myself. It seems he knew more about effective rounds than anybody. Maybe I should buy a book.

The 8x57 actually predates the Mauser design. It was first used in the German Commission rifle of 1888. It was designed by a military board.

The first truly modern Mauser designs in the early 1890s were designed around whatever cartridges the various militaries for whom they were built wanted. Since the 8x57 was the state of the art at the time, they were usually similar if not directly based on the 8x57. Thus the 7x57 went to most of the Latin countries in the Americas. In Argentina, Turkey, and a few other places the 7.65x53 was chosen. A committee from Sweden and Norway came up with the 6.5x55 in 1891. Sweden used it in their Mauser and Norway in their Krags. The Model 98 was meant for the German Army, so it was designed around the 8x57.

The 8x57 was the trendsetter and started a revolution in design. All of the world's militaries decided they had to match it. All of those old cartridges, the 7x57, 6.5x55, and our own 30-06 were the result.

The true "Mauser" cartridges are the ones like 9.3x62 and 9x57 designed by the company for sale in their sporting rifles. The others were the results of military specifications and probably would have been chambered in some other rifle if the Mauser designs hadn't been chosen.

What joe said.

If you want one book with the details get Jon Speed's Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles which covers the military antecedents as well as the sporting rifles. Much of Speed's source material is reproduced in the book includes really interesting stuff from the Mauser factory.

jim

Cartridges that have been adopted by militaries tend to be carefully researched. Almost all my rifles shoot military cartridges: 308, 30-06, 7x57, 6.5x55, 223, and 7.62x54R.

Been reading ALOT about the 9.3x62mm cartridge as I'm getting a rifle chambered for it. In an article by Gil Sengel in HANDLOADER #244 about the 9.3x62mm he says early on the cartridge was listed as the 9.3x62mm Mauser which gave people the impression it was developed by the Mauser company. He could find no indication that Mauser/DWM was involved in its development. What he did discover through other references was that the originator of the 9.3x62mm was the Berlin gunmaking firm of Otto Bock. Who would of thought! But might as well give credit where credit is due. Here's to Mr. Bock for a FINE cartridge.

til later

Don't forget the 7.65x53. It (1891) predates all the above mentioned mauser-deveopled cartridges.

EZE..,

And here's to Mr.Bock for a fine beer,too! (Probably not the same guy, cheers to him anyway).

Honestly, I could hunt the world with a 7X57 and a 9.3X62 and not want for a thing. The Germans had it right 100 years ago.

WOW OUTCAST,and I thought I was the only one who liked dark beer. Long live Guinness X-tra Stout!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tried Samuel Adams Winter Lager(seasonal brew)?

til later

The 7.65x53 -- a virtual .308 developed 60 years earlier -- like the others mentioned, was developed by a military organization to replace and update their small arms. In the case of the 7.65x53, that nation would be Belgium, which had Mauser develop the 1890 rifle, which was improved to the 1891 model that Argentina also adopted.

As noted, the 8x57 was developed for the 1888 Commission Rifle, often mistakenly called the 1888 Mauser, though it is closer in design to a Mannlicher-Schoenauer (without the Mannlicher-designed rotary magazine) than a Mauser.

Fascinating stuff -- imagine what they could have done if they had Reloder 15 and TSX's... .

DN

American wildcatters took the 7x57 down to .257 Roberts,and then further to what would become the .244 Remington/6mm Remington.The Germans went to the 6.5x57 and then to the 6x57 before 1900.Essentially the same cartridge,arrived at by a slightly different path.They never did have any success with it,an idea way before it's time.

You will both note that it WAS mentioned.

Those rounds ran at very high pressures for the time, much like the WSMs. Early 30/06 loads required nearly 60k psi to launch a 150-grain bullet at 2,700 fps. Can you imagine shooting that in a low-numbered '03 Springfield? Those cartridges are only reasonable and well-balanced in hindsight, and with modern powders.

On the other hand, the teams who designed the 8x57 and 6.5x55 knew quite a bit about killing people, so it's no wonder that their cartridges were good at that.


Okie John

From a European standpoint, I suppose you might argue that the 270 is just a stretched and slightly necked down 7x57. With modern pressures, the two are practically ballistic twins.

Ya'll talk about military cartridges and leave out the 45-70? It's still one of the best, inside 150 yards, elk cartridges ever designed. Don't even need magic X types or Partitions to make stuff pretty dead.

Wayne

Wayne, I concur with your appreciation of the 45-70. Concerning effective range, the limitation lies with the shooter, not the 45-70 caliber. It will do it's job waaay past 150 yards as long as the shooter can put it in the right place. Therein lies the challenge.

-

Yeah, but this thread's topic is Mauser cartridges and not military cartridges in general. But, I guess we could discuss the .43 Mauser (1871) versus the .45-70....

-Bob F.

The Europeans were way ahead of the US in small arms and ammunition development. Witness the 7.65x53, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8mm Lebel, etc. The US Army was still shooting 45-70 single shots when the Europeans were selling smokeless powder, jacketed bullets, repeating rifles, etc. world-wide.

On the sporting front, the US had many more hunting opportunities and hunters than did Europe , so unless a manufacturer sold and got a real foothold over here, his market was limited, except for international military sales.

Also remember, the 45-70 was successfully used for 1,000 yard target shooting in the 1890's.

In addition to Mauser Gmbh, there were the other engineers and companies developing cartridges for the Mauser, or based off the 8x57.

Sweden had Mauser build them some 1893s to handle higher pressures in the 6.5x55 than the Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen could handle. When the 6.5x55 Swede proved itself, Mauser built the 1896 for it. the first ones were built with Swedish steel, per the order from the King of Sweden.

Brenneke developed the 8x68mm before WW1.
Then he shortened it to 8x64.
Then he necked it down to 7x64, which is still in production.

Post-war saw the 8x60mm to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles, followed by the 6.5x57mm 9x57mm and 9.3x57.

Actually, I think the 6.5x57mm 9x57mm and 9.3x57 were introduced prior to WWI. The sources I've read indicate introduction around 1900 though none of the references I've read can pin down the exact year of introduction.



-Bob F.

My 9x57 Guild Gun was made in 1908...

DN

Another interesting thing is that Mauser - for China - had a 7 mm cartridge (.278") which - I'm so sorry " is the "parent development" to the American monument .270 Winchester.

Concerning the remark above that the pressure of early GE cartridges was "as high as modern WSM's" is not true at all, just the opposite is correct.

Actually, the parent cartridge for the .270 Winchester was a very similar round based on the .30-06 case using a .288 bullet. It apparently got no further than a prototype, in a European-styled bolt rifle that Winchester developed just before World War One--and was dropped for obvious reasons. After the war, they never got around to introducing the bolt rifle (American-style) until 1925, when the rifle (Model 54) and .270 came out together.

Let us also not forget the 6.5x54mm Mauser (not Mannlicher), designed for the kurz action. It died pretty early on because it featured a relatively slow barrel twist for the 6.5mm of around 1-10, since it was specfically designed for bullets of around 120 grains. I have a custom German 98 made for the round, a really light little mountain rifle made before WWII, but with no name of the maker on it anywhere.

Yes, what we today all "wildcatters", like Mannlicher and Brenneke, were making the 6.5x57, 9x57, 8x64, and and 7x64 all before and during WW1. They really became mainstream factory offerings when the Treaty of V forbade the manufacture of arms in military chamberings, because they Germans had a strong militia tradition, and the fear was that they would all arm themselves with standard equipment. (which they did, anyway).

Limits on quantities and models of arms produced were circumvented by Mauser feeding business to Zastava in Yugoslavia and to Brno in Czechoslovakia, which built up those firms. Mauser also built a factory in Spain.

Now there is an article in the waiting I would love to read, and drool on the pics ...

And oh by the way...if you ever decide to sell it, please call me first... .

DN

WOW!!! Don't believe I've ever seen anyone call Baron Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher a "wildcatter" before. The fact is that the Austrian firm developed its own proprietary line of cartridges, which were not based on the Mauser offerings until the 9.5x57 of 1910 -- the 6.5x54 (1903); 9x56 (1905); and the 8x56 (1908)-- were parallel developments. (Curiously, though, 50+ year-old Kynoch 9x57 ammo will feed and function in my 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. I have just acquired some even older 9x56 ammo, will have to try it in my 9x57 Mauser.)

In any event, the 9x57 Mauser was developed in the very early 1900's for the German East Africa trade, because the farmers needed an affordable rifle that would handle African game, including the occasional lion. The 9.3x57 was developed primarily for Scandinavian use, though I understand some did make their way to the Dark Continent.

The Treaty of Versailles did lead to the 8x60, but had no effect one way or another on the rest of the story.

DN

Well know I know more about these great old cartridges. They have made the acid test, the test of time.
Thanks for all your knowledge!!

If you don't mind: Your remark quoted above does not contradict the fact that Mauser's .278" cartridge was closer to the .270 Winchester compared to Winchester's own ".288-06" .-)

The evolution of the .270 is well documented in a book entitled W.R.A. Co. (Winchester Repeating Arms Company): Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations, by Daniel L. Shuey. There is even a photo of the orginal Winchester "Euro-Rifle." Now, whether Winchester borrowed the .270 bullet diameter is another question, but it is generally agreed among Winchester historians that after WWI Winchester decided on .270 to make sure the thousands of military 7x57's then in America (some on pre-98 Mauser actions) couldn't be rechambered for the Winchester round. Where they got the inspiration is anybody's guess, but there have been many cases of parallel evolution in rifle cartridges.

ad 1. Unfortunately I know many cartridge "documentations" you and I would call "crap". Especially of US origin - just give COTW a look) where facts from Europe had "not very much" influence (to put it mildly).

ad 2. You are right, there is a lot of parallel evolution in cartridges.
But please remember that the .270 Win. bullet diameter is verrry close to metric 7 mm....

I am very aware of it, though some Americans don't seem to be.

On the other hand, if the Chinese Mauser was the inspiration for the .270, it would seem logical for Winchester to have gone directly to the .270 bullet in 1912, when they developed their .288 cartridge, as the Chinese round apparently appeared in 1907, at least according to one source. It was also pretty much based on the 8x57 Mauser cartridge necked down, not the .30-06 case as was the Winchester round.

FWIW Jack O'Connor mentioned in one of his books that he had inside info from Winchester that the .270 was originally came out of some experiements for a new military cartridge. He did not state this as fact only that is what somebody on the inside told him.

Lou

Yeah, I have read the same statement by O'Connor, but never heard anything about it anywhere else.

After WW1 Winchester took note that Newton was winning the speed race with his 256, and 250 Savage, (1915) and yes the velocity race was real. They, Winchester looked to the eastern 7mm/.278 dia. to base or convert the 30 Govt. to win that race.

Where else would they come up with that .277 dia.?

ad 1a. I know you are reliable. You must be of good cultural origin (I guess a Viking)

ad 1b. very mildly put

ad 2. There was several early versions of the Chinese round, one with 57 mm case, one with 60 mm and one with 65 mm (which might have led to the latter .270 Win.)

I am more Viking than anything, but am also a typical American mongrel, with genes from Dutch, Irish, Scots and "Native American" ancestors. Sometimes it gets confusing inside!

djs,
Colonialism was still rampant ... I'd take a guess that the European territories in total offered much more hunting opportunity than the America's on their own. I'd also take a guess that the European manufacturers where competing/developing heavily to fill the need of their colonies for appropriate firearm cartridges.

What I personally find amazing is that the Europeans got by with a handful of "stopper" cartridges in bolt guns ... where as with limited modern hunting opportunities ... we've just kept on making more! Long may the bigbore wildcatter live!
Cheers...
Con

I read an interesting treatise in the Mannlicher Collectors Association newletter that tangentially addresses the issue of European, colonial and American hunting opportunities. the subject was reasons for development of the 9x56 and 9.5x57 M-S cartridges. The standard colonial African needs were mentioned, but then they went into an interesting discussion of European hunting in areas like the Carpathian Mountains, Scandinavia, eastern Europe and other relatively wild parts of the continent that still hosted brown bears, wolves, large wild boars, elg (moose), red stags, and other game larger and perhaps more dangerous than deer. It seems that Europe, pre-World War II, was as different environmentally as it was politically from the current condition.

And for all I know, there still may be parts of the European continent where serious rifles would be in order. In any event, there seems to have been plenty of interest in the rifle and its development a century, plus or minus, ago.

Dennis

A loud 'ME TOO' in praise of Sam Adams Winter Lager. Best beer I've ever tasted!

Not to digress, but the .270 Winchester is based off the .30-03 case, not the .30-06. It is not at all surprising that Mauser's .27 would measure .278, just as the European specs for 7mm are also larger than they are in the USA.

I refer to Mannlicher and Brenneke as being something like "wildcatters" in that they were not part of Kynoch, RWS, DWM, Dynamit Nobel or the other big cartridge manufacturers of their day. They were more more like Charles Newton in the US.

And while many new cartridges were developed just before and during the first World War, it was the restrictions on the 7x57, 6.5x55 SE and 8x57 which made the Mannlicher and the other Mauser cartriges popular in the German states.

Lee24: The case lenght of one - the longest - of the Chinese .278 Mauser vesions was 65 mm, the case lenght of the .30-03 was of (nominal) 64,52 mm - 2.54 in.

Dennis said: "And for all I know, there still may be parts of the European continent where serious rifles would be in order."

You bet! Except in parts of France or vast parts of Italy, due to conversation and excellent wild animal management, and contrary to popular belief, we Europeans today do hunt & harvest MORE hoofed game animals than ever before.

That was my impression, from a co-worker I once had who was born in Norway and went back every couple of years to hunt moose (elg) and reindeer on the family estates. I've read a little about hunting in eastern Europe, as well, and it seems as though some of that country is also pretty wild and unruly. Are there still places in Europe where brown bears can be legally hunted?

How easy is it for Europeans to travel from one country to another to hunt, under the EU? Better, or not, than before?

thanks,

Dennis

Lee24-
You've stated this before in this thread from 3 months ago.

Some pretty reliable published statements for the 30-06 as the parent case included those of Phil Sharpe and Jack O'Connor.

You were unable to cite even one published source to support your opinion then. What new documentation have you uncovered?

--Bob

ad 1. Well, many parts here are crowded with people which does not mean there is no good hunts. ~350 k hunters kill well over 1,15 mio. roe deer and 0,6 mio wild boar in GE.
There is very wild country in the north - Scandinavia - and in the east. I took two moose in Sweden last fall and although the Euro mooose is comparable to a Shiras only, it is real work.

ad 2. Brown bear is common in Skandinavia, in the East, and the Alps. in Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria and Rumania Brown bear are hunted on a regular base. Compared to your "socalistic" license system we do have a very capitalistic "area" hunting system - the ground owner holds all the hunting rights - so bear hunting is pretty expensive ($$ about like Grizzly in Alaska).

ad 3. Travelling even with guns is and was very easy in Europe, sometimes easier than travelling to the States (thanks to 9/11).

Jack O�Connor�s dedication to the .270 Winchester which originated from the early 30-03 military cartridge case (not the 30-06 as is widely believed), convinced many American big game hunters who wanted accuracy without a wallop of recoil, to try the cartridge. Ironically, O�Connor and another popular gun scribe, Idahoan Elmer Keith, clashed over the favorable aspects of the .270 versus the 30-06 in a battle that wore on throughout both writer�s long lives.

- A .270-ist never runs out of conversation
By Paul Bruun
Jackson Hole News
Date: October 18, 2006

The latest Mauser cartridge would be the .376 Steyr, which is a 9.3x64 Brenneke necked up to .375 (again, with the slightly larger European bore.

Charles Newton's cartridges were developed for the 98 Mauser.
He originally was just going to license the cartridges to an established company, like Marlin, but he was jerked around.

His first rifles were made for the Charles Newton Rifle Company by Mauser in Oberndorf, but Mauser was swamped with their own business, and slow delivering to Newton.

Newton designed his own rifle and tried to get Marlin to market it, under a new company, the Buffalo Newton Rifle Company, in Buffalo, New York.

His .256 Newton is not a .25 caliber, but a .264. He wanted more powder than the 6.5x57mm, but he wanted the shoulder of the 7x57, so he trimmed the .30-06 to 2.457 inches, then necked it down.

You can make .256 Newton brass the same way. After trimming it, carefully neck it down with a .257 Roberts die, then expand the neck to .264.

His .30 Newton was just too powerful for the slim stock, because the action had no front recoil lug. It is recognizable by a slim bolt handle with a small ball on the end. I will try to take photo and post it.

The 6x57 became the 6mm Remington, then the .244 Remington.
I had one in a Browning B-78. Quite a shooter!

Well...that settles that! Paul Bruun of the Jackson Hole News is certainly a far more credible firearms authority than Phil Sharpe and Jack O'Connor.

Now, who the freak is Paul Bruun again? For all anyone knows, he made the statement in the article because he read your thread six months ago and believed you.

Unlike the rest of us...

DN

ps...the .244 Remington came out first; then Remington changed the rifling twist to shoot heavier bullets better and renamed it the 6mm Remington. That one is pretty easy to document...

Nope...the .376 Steyr would be the latest development of the company of that famed European wildcatter, Baron Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher, now known as Steyr-Mannlicher. (You could start another European conflict by calling something developed in Austria a German development.) If you want to find its proper provenance, look to the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer -- that was their first attempt at a ".375" bore. Use of the Brenneke case design is a matter of convenience, not the development of a "Mauser" cartridge.

DN

Looks like the original thread got lost. As long as I'm alive you won't be the only guy on this thread who likes dark beer.

We can argue till the end of time but, the Germans make great beir, great rifles and great cartridges. The terrain over there is as wild and tough as it gets, the hunters I've met there are real gentlemen. The downside is : it takes a ton of money and a college degree to get a liscense.

The last firearm I purchased was a Walther P38 and I'm having a ball with it.

muledeer, I guess if you don't consider the 9.3x64 Brenneke a Mauser cartridge, then necking it up to .375 means the .376 Steyr isn't a Mauser cartridge, either.

I happen to think if Steyr had developed a .375 from scratch, like the .375 Ruger, then it would be soley a Steyr cartridge.

By the way, I am a big Mannlicher fan, having owned a 1950 in 6.5x54, an 1952 in .30-06, and just bought a Steyr M Luxus carbine in (gasp!) .270 WCF.

Outstanding! Maybe I can get one more tour in Europe!

Expat