comparing a 45-70 with a 405gr bullet at 1750fps to
a 375 with a 300gr bullet at 2550fps
the 45-70 has a higher Taylor Knock Out score and a higher Thornily Relative Stopping Power score.
For large game and dangerous game within its range of say 150yds; is the 45-70 the better rife?

Yup, and the best thing is that you don't even need to carry it, just invoking its name in an authoritative voice will drop large and dangerous beasties in their tracks.

The .375 will win for any real world situation.

The TKO was invented by John Taylor to attampt to describe the ability to knock out, temporarily, an elephant if the skull is pierced but the brain is missed. Theoretically, the higher the TKO, the farther you can miss the brain by.

The 45-70 load you mentioned will not even penetrate an elephant's skull and is also illegal to use on elephants in any African country I can think of.

The TKO theory also only applied to solid bullets, something many people don't know or ignore.

Also, most of the PH's of long experience I have known think it is BS.

Looks like the 45-70 is legal in the RSA:

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/hunt_results.asp

Penetrated the elephant's skull, too!

JV

I've owned both, and I can tell you from experience that in real world terminal ballistics ( bullet hitting critters) the .375 wins HANDS DOWN.
The trajectory is better, the hitting power is better, everything is better.
That being said, I can handle the recoil of a BP loaded 45.70 cast bullet far better than the 375!
Cat

The .45/70 is a "fun gun" because it offers a big bore with moderate recoil that most can master.

It's versatility extends to massage your imagination so if you want a nostalga piece, you have a multitude or rifles and actions offering varying historical significance, right through to the user who wants a tool that is portable, manouverable and dependable on soft skin dangerous game.

The cartridge itself, if used under the masterful advice of shot placement first and foremost, demonstrated capability up to dangerous game, of any size when the appropriate bullet is chosen.

The .375 H&H is a hunters rifle. More tool than fun gun, it too reaches the upper limits of recoil capability for the average rifleman which contributes to its success as a world renown cartridge capable of taking all game on the planet if again, the above guidelines for appropriate bullet are noted and accepted.

A model 70 in .375H&H is a classic hunting rifle as is a Marlin 1895 Cowboy. Both will do the same job at stalking ranges with the right bullet, but the .375 extends that capability out to .30/06 ranges where it competes in trajectory.

There is room for both in most rifle racks.

JW

Mule Deer:

I have never knocked out an elephant, so I can't argue that point. Actually, I have never shot an elephant, and I don't really want to, even if I could afford to go to Africa.

One thing I get out of Taylor's KOV is that he takes into consideration the bullet diameter and frontal area instead of relying on foot pounds of energy as the only reliable comparison of killing potential.

Disregarding the use of solid bullets and knocking out elephants, I think his values are valid if used under normal sporting purposes on a variety of game, with whatever type of bullet used. A .50 caliber solid is still going to make a 1/2 inch entrance and exit hole.

What I mean is, I think frontal area would make a difference in killing ability on a broadside shot of any animal from deer up to and including elephant, if you went for a heart and/or lung shot.

Put another way, I think a large diameter bullet would kill quicker and do more tissue damage than a smaller diameter and lighter high velocity bullet with the same foot pounds of energy at the distance the animal is shot.

One place I agree with Taylor is that the larger bullet would make a larger entrance hole and create an easier to follow blood trail, in the event your bullet was in a non-lethal area. That is not my idea, but Taylor's. Taylor mentions that in his book on African Rifles and Cartridges, when talking about using light, small bore rifles.

If the bullet completely penetrated, it would also make a large exit hole, except possibly in those instances of a rapidly expanding high velocity bullet that hit bone.

If you have read the thread about shooting leopards with a .243, that is the reason I would be against the practice, in the event the bullet didn't go where it was supposed to and you had a wounded and mad leopard hiding and waiting on you to come looking for it. I had much rather follow a blood trail caused by a large diameter bullet in a non instantly lethal place than a small bullet in the same place.

No matter what you used for a back up rifle, you would still have to hit it, and do it quickly from very close range.

Not with a 405 grain bullet at 1750 it didn't.

I thought this might be of interest:

"I have had clients arrive on elephant hunts carrying a .45-70, without appreciating that the round, no matter how hotly loaded, will not penetrate a big bull elephant from a frontal shot, which is the shot presented in at least 30 percent of the cases. By all means, use your favorite lever rifle if that is what you wish to do, but understand the limitations you are imposing on yourself. . . and the PH. For elephant and rhino, the criterion for a client�s rifle is penetration, followed by penetration.

At the same time, the .500 NE Jesse guns proved they were not up to big bulls. From the short 18-inch barrels, they just didn�t drive a 570-grain bullet fast enough. Come to think of it, even from a 24-inch barrel, they were marginal and required a good bullet to be considered satisfactory. For a client on an elephant hunt, a .40-caliber rifle is perfect and a .375 perfectly adequate assuming good bullets."

"Calibers for Dangerous Game"
by Ganyana
Rifle Magazine #242, January-February 2009
www.riflemagazine.com

True, He shot Garrett "Hammerheads"- 540grain @ 1550 for elephant/rhino/buffalo/hippo and 420grain @ 1850 for lion/leopard...

I've used maximum 400gr Speer flat point 45/70 loads on deer and black bear...I think it would work well on broadside elk or moose but not through a shoulder!

On the other hand, I've used the 375 H&H with good bullets - it is without question a much better 'stopper' than the 45/70 - with energy, bullet construction and penetration all in it's favor.

We could discuss sectional density, penetration, momentum, TKO, why Nitro Express cartridges replaced the Black Powder rounds, Bell and his small bores and much more but ---

I would rely on the opinion of professional hunters who make a living insuring their clients survive an elephant hunt and secure a trophy (500 grains at 2100fps or better for 45 caliber) before I would follow contradictory advice from a company that makes its profit selling hot ammunition "guaranteed" to turn a lever action into an elephant gun.

FWIW:

I note that the 375 H&H and the 405 Win will both send 300 grain Partitions out the end of the barrel at 2400 fps.

The 405 does lag with flat bullets, etc. But Teddy R was right, it is "Big Medicine."

BMT

"True, He shot Garrett "Hammerheads"- 540grain @ 1550 for elephant/rhino/buffalo/hippo and 420grain @ 1850 for lion/leopard..."

Not too impressive.

My plain old .458 Magnum shooting 450 grain bullets at 2250 fps beats it by 20% in the momentum or TKO department and 75% in the energy department. The .375 H&H penetrates at least as far.

I'll bet he did not take a frontal brain shot at the elephant.

Forgive my ignorance but just how thick is an elephant's skull???