I am looking at Dakota 97 or 76, Cooper 52 Excalibur and Weatherby sub moa in .270. Does any one have experience with real life shooting with these guns? They all boast exceptional accuracy but I would like to hear from those with first hand experience. I want to shoot 140 Accubonds.

I am aware of the obvious and significant price differences but I will pay for quality in a gun if it can be justified. I like the actions on all 3. Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

4 those kinds of money I'd most likely build...

As for the Sub Moa I'd just buy the regular Vanguard as I really don't feel it can be beat.

Good luck in your decision.

Dober

Oh and welcome to the Fire!

Man-0-man, what a problem! Wish I had a problem like that. I would say, pick the one that you think that has the best wood and looks the nicest! I don't think there is a wrong choice in that bunch. Happy Hunting --- both for the rifle choice and then the game.

yea welcome to the fire!!! Remember I told ya.... Remington 700

BTW our buddy saw a 6 & 8 yesterday afternoon and passed on the 8. said it was just inside the ears. I'm gonna post your pic on the Hunters campfire big bucks thread!!

Sam aka 163bc

Thanks. I have a custom .300 jarrett that shoots lights out. I only use it on western hunts though. I have found Dakotas for $3500 but Coopers are all at list around $1800 and of course the Vanguards for $900. For the money the WB is the logical choice. But if my gun buying was logical what fun would that be?

Thanks. I always buy synthetic and stainless. I hunt with my rifles and the safe queens are shotguns.

You know how I feel about 700's. Great guns but I prefer other action types. leaving soon to get jawbones and hunt. call me. thanks for the welcome.

can't help myself. I'm a Rem 700 slut always have been and always will be.

Welcome to the forum blackdogsrule. We hope that you enjoy yourself here.

The Dakota seems to be a M70 custom at a higher price. Get very specific as to what your getting from the exact Dakota that you may buy.

The Coopers are not favored by some here due to their presidents backing of a political who is anti gun.

I don't favor any Weatherby and in particular the Vanguard action or its origin.

Dakota 76



To add: To be frank for the money I would rather have this old M70 that was just sold on GA for $995!

Might wanna take a look at Sako's too. I almost bought an 85 Grey Wolf recently. But, I am a Weatherby man tried & true.

I have two Model 76 Dakotas.I bought them both used.I had what I thought was an accuracy problem with the 30-06.I called them up and they said send it in.So I did.They put a new barrel on it and refinished the Rifle back to new condition.Did not cost me anything ,but the shipping charge to them.By the way both rifles shoot .5 groups as a matter of fact with almost anything you feed them.They are not super light ,but are so well balanced that you dont notice that fact.They are everything a Mo.70 should be!!!!!!

Coopers no longer count they are built by an igoit.

I have played around with a Cooper 52 & did not like it, the stock did not fit me very well and the action was really rough. The stocks on Weatherby's don't fit me at all. I own a used Dakota 76 in 7 Rem Mag that I bought used for $2,000 that I think was worth the money. If I could find a 375 H&H in the mid $3,000 range I'd buy it. I have several wood stock custom rifles that might bring 1/2 of what I have in them. A used Dakota in the $2-3 range can be resold with no loss.

If you're looking for stainless, I believe they are still working on the final run of 97's.

I have a 97, and Model 70, both in .270, both in left hand.

The weight difference between the 2 is noticable as the 97 is a round body like the Rem 700 and has the separate recoil lug.

All other components are the same as a Model 70/76.

I am happy with mine, both in accuracy, and fit/finish.

Curly

Wow! Really nice case-hardening on the receiver and rings.

I have shot all three rifles and for the money the Vanguard Sub-MOA is hard to beat.

Here I will disagree with my friend Dober. While just about any Weatherby Vanguard will shoot pretty well, some shoot better than others. The Sub-MOA's are selected during the shooting process that EVERY Weatherby goes through before they get shipped. Any rifle that shoots noticeably better than average is then put into a Sub-MOA stock (pillar-bedded) which is different than the standard Vanguard stocks. I have a Sub-MOA in .300 Weatherby that shoots extremely well: factory loads from an inch on down to about a half-inch, and the right handloads go into less than 1/2 inch.

The only thing I didn't like about my Sub-MOA was the trigger, so I replaced it with a Timney. The new Vanguards supposedly have an improved trigger, but I haven't tried one yet. I will also note that even some of the older triggers were quite good, but some weren't so hot, even after adjusting.

The reason a lot of people are boycotting Cooper is because Mr. Cooper gave several thousand dollars to Barak Obama, who is on record as voting to outlaw guns and ammunition.

Me, I will probably never buy another hunting rifle from anyone, except maybe a pre-64 in .375 H&H, or that neat .375 Ruger, or one of those slick Vanguards in .257 Wby, or a .470 double from Searcy if I could afford it, or, or...

Thanks for the replies. I like the WB action-have an ultra light in .270. It shoots great but I dont shoot it well sometimes under pressure-maybe the weight. I am over the election thank God so Cooper is an option. I really like the Dakota ation but would like to hear from some that have shot the 76 and 97 in .270. Is it a "true" sub moa round? For the money it should give my Jarrett some real competition.

I have a 1948 model 70 that I have never shot. I'm going to put a scope on it and give it a try soon. Who knows? It may be a tack driver.

I have never shot a Sako but I am sure they are as advertised. There are just a lot of good American guns to try first.

blackdogs: I have owned two Dakota's; a 30/06 wood/blue,and my present one which is chambered in 7mmDakota(just "because" .I have also owned a slew of custom rifles by various makers and can say that the Dakota "build"was like falling off a log.

I said "do this",and they did it.The rifle functions and shoots beautifully.It "feels" more like a pre 64 M70 than anything else I've tried to date.

It puts 150 Swift S'2s and 140 AB's into tiny groups.Some days I'm a 1/2 MOA shooter,and some days I'm not,but the rifle has shot enough groups of that size that I'm convinced it will outshoot me.The 30/06 was owned back when the 76 first came out.It was very accurate,functioned flawlessly, and I regret selling it.

If I did not have several 270's already,wanted to build one, and was willing to spend the money,a Dakota 76 would top my list out of stuff made today.I would use a Kreiger #1 contour finished at 22-23".I have one of those on a M70 action and it's a very accurate barrel for something as light as it is.

Can't help with the Cooper or the Sub MOA as I have owned neither one.

This is a free country,which makes it great,but I can't help but wonder about how anyone could be so philosophically inconsistent as to be pro Second Amendment(as in gun manufacturer),and then donate to a candidate who considers the Constitution to be out dated and fundamentally "flawed"......anyone who can't see where Obama wants to steer this country is operating with blinders.I'm stunned.

Sorry to hijack;could not resist commenting.If I was thinking about a Cooper rifle, I'm not anymore.....

Good stuff Bob, now just think of how good your Nodak would of been if you'd of chambered it in my beloved 7 Mashburn Super...

Dober

(ps, I'll try to call you this weekend so we can cuss/discuss life)

Mule Deer could well be right about the Sub Moa, it's just that I am pretty darn frugile by nature (my Dad always said that we were poor imigrant Polish people... ). Add to that I've not found a present day Van that wouldn't shoot sub moa right from the box is why I say go with the cheaper, I mean more cost efficient model...grin

I just fell off the wagon last night and ordered in a Wby Van Yote Special in '250 so hopefully I don't find one that will shoot over moa! I'm thinking that yote prices will treat me better this winter than real estate prices...

Later boyz!

Dober

Dober: Call when U can! Am going to the range to mess with a 7mm today.

I'll try later today or tomorrow during the games, shoot straight!

Dober

Haven't shot the Coopers, though word is they are excellent (-.5 moa guaranteed). I don't like the shape of the stock, for one thing - too deep through the forearm. Not to shot with the safety, a la M700; add to that the abominable detachable magazine, and it's "no thanks" for me in a hunting rifle. The varmint calibers are another thing, however.

Mark,

You are probably right about general Vanguard accuracy; that's been my experience as well. My suggestion of the Sub-MOA is based on two factors: That they select more-accurate-than-average Vanguards, then put them in a better stock.

There's nothing woring with the standard Vanguard synthetic stock, but nothing exceptional about it either. It's just an injection-molded stock, like 95% of syn-stocked factory rifles have these days. These are a lot better than they used to be, and some of these rifles show exceptional accuracy. It's just that the Sub-MOA stock is better!

Put a better stock on an accuracy-selected barreled action, and the odds go up for a real shooter....

And, if they keep it out of my pawz they've got an even better chance that it'll shoot...

Dober

Mule Deer,

You're right about the stock- it is precisely the reason I bought my Vanguard Sub-MOA, in .270 WSM. The option would have been to buy a run of the mill Vanguard, and then spend another $500 to over $600 to buy a McMillan or similar stock, have it bedded, etc., running the total cost of the Vanguard to around a grand.

I bought mine for a few bucks over $700, and feel it is a great value at that price.

The only other expenditure I have made, other than Talley LW's and a Leupold scope, was to buy a Timney trigger for $65. The trigger makes this rifle a terrific shooter, in addition it adds a three-position safety to the action.

The Sub-MOA guarantee was the real deal- the rifle was shot at the factory with 150 gr. Winchester Power Point ammo, and a .5" test target. It shoots .5 to .75", three shot, 100 yd. groups with this load, plus two handloads I've developed for it- 130 gr. and 150 gr. Nosler Partitions.

They are indeed pretty much a steal.

To tell the truth, with the factory rifles we have these days, I am becoming convinced that unless we want something radically different than what we can buy off the rack (such as a wildcat caliber, or say a .257 Weatherby Magnum in a 6.5 pound rifle) then why buy custom? Unless, of course, we just want to.

Well want and need real or imagined are two different things. I had a Dakota 76 in 270 I bought it used and paid less that what some Mid price Bino's are going for, sold it for North of 4K and got a Blaser R-93. It shot fine, for a hunting rifle and that was what it was, I also had a Dakota Single shot in 280, could never get it to shoot as well as it should have, plenty accurate for hunting, I sold it, to a fellow that wanted it and made a little on the deal. They are over priced for what you get, buy a used one if you can find one at a good price, I don't know anything about Cooper so I will not comment on it, As for Weatherby Vanguards, people like them, I had one in 270 back in 1974 for a while, shot fine. I have more trigger time with the Mark V Weatherby's German, then Japanese, then U.S. made in Saco Maine. All shot well for what they were hunting rifles chambered for hunting cartridges, 300, 7mm and 340 Weatherby Mags. That 7mm WM was of Japanese Made, and that rifle shot well better than well it would turn it 1.5 inch groups or better at 200 yards. It was not a light gun, I had a big Ziess 2.5 x 10 on it 30 mm tube. Used it mostly for crop damage deer shooting, Worked great, It was one of those deals, I bought the rifle for a song and put 1500 + dollars worth of glass on it, Sold the scope, when I down sided my gun collection, and that rifle went to a fellow that was a lot smarter than me, he put a fixed 6x leupold on it, 42 mm I think and been shooting deer and elk with it ever since. Problem with the Mark V's they are not light weight guns, my favorite Sako 75 in 338 is lighter that that 7mm. Buy what you what to shoot, and can afford and never mind what anybody says about it. I myself would love an Echol's done over M-70 in Say 300 H+H, JB you shot one you know why I just think about it to much. Never mind the cost, if you have ask as the saying goes.

Great replies. Excellent site. Thanks very much. As I stated I have one WB ultra light now that shoots well. I had a mark V in .300Wby a few years ago that I couldnt get to shoot right. I even had some accurizing work done. It shot Ok but I am pretty picky I guess.

I really dont need any more guns but hey- that's what floats our boats I guess. Always intigued by something new and different. There is a store close to here that has a couple Mato's, Coopers, WB and dakotas. I will check it out and see what catches my fancy. The Dakots really intrique me.

I understand about Dan Cooper and his Obama support. I am a lifelong conservative and have never missed voting in any election-local included. I also support with my wallet. However there was an interesting article in the paper today about the Forest Service plan to allow Plum Creek Timber Co. to pave 900 miles of logging roads in western Montana before Jan. 20 administration change. They want to carve the area up for "McMansions". Obama opposes it.

Here is a quote by him "At a time when Montana's sportsmen are finding it increasingly hard to access lands, it is outrageous that the Bush administration would exacerbate the problem by encouraging prime hunting and fishing lands to be carved up and closed off".

This is why Cooper supports him I believe. I didnt intend for this to become political when I posted but I felt an obligation to answer a couple posts. Back to guns now hopefully.

Thanks again from a card carrying memeber of the Republican party.

blackdogsrule-do you live in Montana and or where at?

Thx
Dober

Dober,

I live in The Commonwealth of Virginia and am seeing my birth state, beautiful West Virginia, carved up into 20 acre (or less) "mountain retreats" so the article on the parcilization of Montana strikes home. Did not mean to get political but I can understand Dan Cooper's thinking.

Mark Brown

Cool, was just being my natural curious self.

Dober

how does the timney add a 3 position safety feature?? Thanks, 163bc

Sam,

Look on the Timney website. It looks like the 3 position safety is like a Remington not a Winchester horizontal safety.

I may have to rethink a weatherby!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For $800 it sure is worth a try before you drop big bucks on a Dakota or Empire like I'm thinking of doing.

My Dakota 76 is one of my favorite rifles. I believe only it and the Cooper are machined after hardening. I could sell mine for more than I paid for it but never will. I am always looking for others. When I purchased a LH model 70 safari I had discussed the options with Norma Allen, I wish I had taken her advice and gone with the Dakota.

I would like to go on record commending Dan Cooper for his support of Obama as well as the entire state of Montana. Not only do I like the country in Montana but respect the residents of that state for being independent thinkers with a fierce sense of what is right. This individual thinking and the open ranges need to be preserved. Just look at what has already happened on the front range and in Wyoming next time you question his choice.

I will consider the Cooper 52 when they put a traditional hinged floor plate on them, I believe there are plans to do this.

Mr. Cooper does not reside in Montana. Dan lives in Ohio.

I would go with the weatherby and if you aren't satisfied then you can always buy the cooper or dakota and get your money back out of the weatherby. I bought a SS Regular Vanguard in .257. The factory target measured .89"(they have to go .75 or smaller to be sub moa). I never shot it with the factory stock. I bought a like new mcMillan for $325 and my first 100yd group with factory 110 AB's was .42" I shot 5-6 shots and cleaned after each one at 25 yds then went to 100. My last groups with several different factory loads are all under an inch but I haven't had a good range day yet-rain, wind etc. I have not touched the trigger but it feels pretty good. No creep and around 4-5lbs is my guess. I am very pleased with what I have for about $800. Hope this helps.
Lee

The weatherby makes more sense money wise right now. I have had good luck with all but one of them in the past. Would love to get a Dakota or Empire to play around with.

If the Vanguard were about a pound less in weight, I'd be right there. Rifles that creep up to the 8 lb level (I think the specs are 7 3/4 lbs for the bare rifle) just don't feel right in my hands...especially once I add a scope, sling and full magazine.

What are the odds Weatherby will come out with a lightweight Vanguard? Howa makes one, and they are the source for the Vanguard line.

Weatherby shows a 6 3/4# backcountry Vanguard rifle
http://weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/back_country

I havent looked at all of them lately because I bought two Dakota 97s when they were a lot cheaper.....I was tired of pumping money into 700s and not getting results I wanted....the 97s shot very well right out of the box.....Their synthetic stock is so-so but actions are smooth and trouble free. I suspect my Dakotas are still worth close to what I paid for them and that is difficult to do with a custom unless the smith is reknown.

The Dakotas do seem to hold their value. Hard to find a deal on one. That's why I am looking at them.

Weatherby must have changed the Mark V ultra-light that I have to the Vanguard Backcountry recently. The Mark V has a gray stock with black spider webbing and the flutes are black. I wonder if there are changes other than cosmetic?

Bought a Howa varmint in 223 Rem and a Weatherby Vanguard in 308.
Dumped the factory stocks and added a Bell & Carlson Medalist (full length aluminum bedding block) $625 total before I sell the other stocks. It may not be a sub-MOA but it may work just as well.