Dogzapper
Read you post on the 7mm 120 BT is the same thing true of the 120BT in 6.5mm?

I'll give this a bump by telling you that the 120 in the 6.5, at least at Swede speeds, is one fine bullet. I haven't had them blow if like some of this design can, and it has done a fine job of dispatching a nice handful of caribou I've used it on. I'm not sure how it relates to the same weight in 7mm however.

The 6.5 120 also works very well on whitetail out of the Swede.

I've watched Chub murder a bunch of Alberta mooses with the 120 BT in his 6.5 Blowhole Express.

I have never seen the old fart shoot twice on a moose or a big Northern whitetail with the 120s. They just fall down, most sincerely dead.

Come to think about it, I've never seen him miss. That's a lot more than I can say!!!!

Steve

dz,
Is this an indication that 6.5 calibers are inherently more accurate than 7mm calibers or is something else going on here?

To be perfectly honest, I've never noticed any particular difference. Given a Krieger or a Schneider, both the 6.5s and the 7s shoot incredibly.

I really love the 7s. And I totally love .25s. Thank goodness we can own lots of rifles

Steve

I have to agree with Steve on performance levels between the 7mm and 6.5mm"s.

To answer the question at hand, I have used the 120 BT's quite a bit in several different 6.5's with excellent results, both on paper and game. Most of my experience has been with the 6.5-06. With several different barrels, in lengths of 24 and 26 inches, the 120's have made tiny groups at the range on a regular basis. I have shot deer and antelope with them from 50 to several hundred yards with the same end result... a dead critter. I have been thinking about switching to the 125 partition in the 6.5-06 off and on over the years, but have hesitated due to the performance of the 120's. They are a great bullet in the 6.5's as far as I am concerned.

The gent my Gunsmith here in Dallas built his 6.5STW,his final BEST shooting accuracy loads were with 120gr NBT'S.He told me the deer he's shot with this bullet acted like they had been hit by lightning,but I would imagine at around 3900fps anything would act like that.

I have used the 6.5mm 120 grain balistic tip out of a couple of rifles in 260 remington. When pushed to 3000fps they held together great and always exited on various critters. Some were shot at very close range and the bullets performed fine.

I can not remember recovering a bullet,all exits on broadside shots. I can not remember having to blood trail anything either,all were very quick kills.

I have a Remington Classic Swede and it shoots the 125 grain Partition into smaller groups than the 120 grain Ballistic tip so that is what I use for deer hunting. Both go around 2900 fps with IMR 4350. Prairie dogs get the 100 grainer. My earlier question to dz was tongue in cheek since he is well known for his use of the 7mm's.

I have used the 6.5 120 Ballistic Tip from a .260 Rem on a enough mule deer and whitetail to realize it is one heckuva deer killer. Lighting quick kills from 20 yards out to 270, with the majority of 120 BT's exiting. I did recover a couple bullets from two bucks. Both BT's were recovered under the hide on the off-side shoulder. Both retained right at 50% original weight and as you can see expanded quite well.

Interesting thread, read and thought the same ? as above, what about a 6.5. Ran #s with a 7/120 vs a 6.5/120 using 3100 and 3000 respectively and the bc/sd are 417/213 vs 458/246. Interestingly they run within like 4 ft. lbs IIRC at 400 yds....now I did see a guy's data on reloaders nest, 3046 mv w/120 bt in a 260/24" bbl....unsure if custom or factory but that even closes the gap more in standard chambers..

The Blowhole Express I understand is a 6.5/280 AI at around 3200 mv.

My thoughts are that a 260 or 6.5x55 class cartridge should do very well with the 120 BTs, just not quite the trajectory, about 2.7" difference between 3k and 3.2k mv at 400 yds, and 160 fps, less than 200 lbs.

The real interesting point is a 130 AB in the 260 class at 2850 mv has 5 lbs more energy at 400 yds than the 6.5/280ai/120 load....that speaks volumes for using a 130 at modest speeds IMHO. Where I hunt, I don't feel the need the extra 200 fps but can imagine on a Bou hunt on the Tundra, super long shots present and it could be put to use. I also love short actions.

No doubt as to the effectiveness of 120s whether it's in Steve's 7/08 AI, or the 6.5 in the BlowHole Express.....or pushed a tad slower, I'd have complete confidence WITH SHOT Placement.....for most any NA big game hunting. Having used a 7/08 a good bit also, and with 139s, I'd have to imagine a 140 AB would be a very good combo in that round.....as I feel the 130 AB is for the 6.5 rounds. At the same time, I will take a new look at the 120s, esp. on deer.

Just goes to show you what shot placement using good bullets will do....and DZ comments about Chub, has reconfirmed my thoughts on using a mid size 6.5mm on a possible future AK Moose hunt.

Thanks DZ for taking your time to post the info and I hope you're Catholic Parish is growing well. Any chance that you might consider changing which side you shoot from? Other than having to change to Left handed rifles if you are right handed....or vice versa? I suspect you had a Rotator Cuff or Labral repair, sorry it did not produce better results whatever it was for you. Not that you want, but if you doubt the surgeon's skill considering post-op outcome, there is sometimes a good case for going back for a 'revision' by another surgeon....if you wanted to do that, just a thought I wanted to pass on - not knowing if you had contemplated it. Techniques and Implants used, as well as Surgeon skills vary widely.

Good luck to you on all endeavors, enjoyed your comments.

I built my 6.5-'06 in '90 and decided to get a flock of cases and fireform them. I got 400 cases and loaded them with a load from a manual (50.0 gr IMR 4831) and loaded the 120 Solid Base Noslers in my resized WW .25-'06 brass. Shooting the initial box of that ammo at the range I was seeing 3-shot groups in the 2s. The first group was .227". I used most of that ammo for a rifle course at Gunsite, and never did run it over a chrono.

This is a hunting rifle, but was custom built on a Rem action, McM. pillar bedded stock and Shilen barrel by a benchrest gunsmith friend who let me watch and make notes.

I built it and a .280 Rem at the same time, and they both shoot.

jim

I used the 120 BT out of my .260 on two mule deer. Both hit the ground where they stood and had exits. The exit wounds were pretty substantial, even at 275 yds.

6.5,

Yup, Christ the King Catholic Church is thriving. It's a relatively small neighborhood parish, but growing by leaps and bounds; we have a fabulous priest and a parish community that is friendly and welcoming. Karen and I totally love being part of the CTK community and being super-active in it.

Last evening's Ash Wednesday Holy Mass was packed. Tomorrow evening will be our first Stations of the Cross and Parish Soup Supper of the year. Lent is such a great liturgical season.

My right shoulder is OK for work around the house, where I can rest it when it runs out of power. I've killed stuff for so many years and been so physically active in the field that I know it would fail me if tested heavily. There is no way, I could lug a critter out of the bush, load it in the truck, pull it up to skin it and load it back into the truck to come home.

I had a 90++ percent tear of the superspinatus tendon. It was fairy dramatic; I simply pulled it apart while dragging an antelope that Karen killed. Heck it was only a little over two miles back to the truck (by GPS), but by the time I got there, I simply could not lift my right arm above my beltline.

Almost a year later, I had it reattached. The surgeon also removed a one-inch bone spur that stuck forward out of my shoulder (body's attempt to protect itself from recoil). The ortho-surgeon, one of Portland's finest, said that it was obvious that I'd experienced the recoil effects of shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds of rifle fire. My ears also resemble that remark

Today, I'm 3-years post-op; my shoulder is strong and I have full range-of-motion, but the endurance is lacking. Hey, at 66, it's good enough. Having said that, I totally overhauled our main bathroom over the last two months. It required lots of heavy work, but I paced myself, working perhaps one to two hours each day. It's amazing what an old fella can do when he does it in small work sessions.

To be honest, after a full year of rehabilitation, I got so out of the tradition of chasing deer, elk and antelope that I probably will not go back in the field. It hurts to shoot and I've come to realize that I'm no longer tough enough for the bush. Even more honest, I simply have no desire to hunt any more; I might have one more antelope in me, just for old times sake, but that's about it.

The crazy thing is that I'm not even sad about it. Ain't that weird???

Hey, I'm 66 years of age, have killed hundreds and hundreds of big game animals and am ready for something else.

Another factor is that at our age, we find ourselves eating less and less red meat. The last several years, we basically gave away at least eighty percent of the meat we killed. That seems kind of silly.

The cold, the four o'clock mornings and the beating of my old rapidly-aging body holds little allure, so retiring from the field is not a totally sad event. The manic 1,000 mile drives to Montana, while wonderful at the time, no longer draw us.

Having said that, I love helping others with their hunting plans, handloading problems and giving freely of experience I've gotten in the field.

I'll never write again. Having been screwed-over twice in the writing field and a couple of times in the firearms industry, I've totally divorced myself of writing or design work in the industry. Basically, screw them and the ugly frickin' horse they rode in on.

The Campfire is for me. I'm delighted to help anyone at any time; freely, quickly and at no cost.

Steve

PS. Now, if I could figure out what to do with my last truck, I'd be set. Believe it or not, I own a 2006 Chevrolet 2500HD LT Duramax/Allison Crew Cab/Short Bed in Graystone Metallic with Charcoal Leather. I bought it new, exactly three years ago and it has less than 5,000 miles on the odometer.

Don't need the truck, don't use the truck and it should be out there with someone else having fun in the field.

What to do, what to do.

ST

Steve,

Thanks for staying at the Fire... and helping all of us with our questions. It is more appreciated than you may realize, at least in my case. Mike

Well, I'd say put that cherry truck in the classifieds if you have not yet Surely someone can use it!

Well it's good to know a great surgeon did a good job on you and you can perform 'Honey Do's/Dues/Past Do and Overdue's.." LOL.

Coincindentally while growing up, I spent those years going to a Catholic church also named Christ the King. Still going every Sunday but to a closer church. I understand how life changes one's passions/hobbies/interest and no criticism from me. I have yet to pass thru Wyoming and Montana and a few other places and I had a chance recently to catch up with my cousin who came in a couple of weeks ago from AK. He has offered me to come do some Halibut, King Salmon, etc. fishing in the summer, and even a Moose hunt, etc. should I be able to make it in. A new job and vacation time permitting, I am hoping to make some lifetime memories in the near future.

Having had so much recoil induced injury atop of the Antelope drag, I wonder if you shoot 22s much, and/or any handguns. Years back I read alot of your articles in Varmint Hunting Mag and really appreciate the work you did, the depth was great and it was nice to see a writer tell it how it is....sometimes others seem commercially biased/skewed to much so.

Thanks for the reply and I wish you and your wife the best at continuing your next big chapter in life, as it looks like God has given you a greater calling to help grow that parish and that is great of you to invest your time/energy in a great cause.

Best wishes to you and your future endeavors!

Thanks for the personal insights, Steve.

It's sort-of 'funny' how you injured your shoulder, but only because I did the same thing in close to the same way. One evening in the fall of 2007 my son shot a deer (with my Ruger 35 Whelen) and hit it low breaking both front legs. It pushed itself with it's hind legs out of the field and into the woods. They decided to leave it for a while hoping it would settle down and expire. I went with him after dark to retrieve the deer, only to find that it was still quite alive. Every time we approached the deer it would scoot itself away in a flurry of motion. We didn't have a gun with us because it is illegal to possess any weapon in the field after dark. The boys tied a knife on the end of a stick and repeatedly tried to stab the deer, but each time it would jump away and the boys would jump back for fear of being kicked. It was comical for a while, but after a while I decided it was time to end the charade. So I, the ol' man, worked into position behind and out of the deer's sight. Then I 'pounced' (not 'fell' ) on the deer's neck with my forearm and held it down with my weight so the boys could cut it's neck. When my forearm landed on that deer's neck, I heard a 'pop' and instantly felt the unmistakably excrutiating pain of a torn-up shoulder. But we got that dang deer!

An MRI showed that the supraspinatus tendon was completely torn and had receeded back about 2cm from where it belongs. It was later surgically repaired and is now doing quite well.

I am delighted to hear that you are actively involved in your church. God bless you and yours in all that lies ahead.

How many offers have you had on the Chevy since your last post?

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Thanks guys.

You know, a few days ago a few of us at church were talking about personal depth and talents. Between us, simply professionally, we had a welder, a CPA, a Graduate Gemologist & jouneyman goldsmith (me), a lawyer and priest. Non-professionally, we were had a near world class golfer, a couple of Master Gardners, a successful writer, an stellar early-Church historian, an amateur brick mason and a fabulous quilter.

I'm convinced that if we'd talked more, we would have discovered another level of interests and talents.

The reason I mention this is to point out that none of us is one-dimensional. A person with a single dimension would be the most boring person in the world and would probably die because he'd bore himself to death

I was never simply a hunter, or a writer, or a precision handloader, or a goldsmith, or a watchmaker, or a devout Catholic or a student of the early-Church Fathers, or a philanthropist who loves to donate money for the fine education of worthy children. I am all of those things and much, much more.

We are all much, much more.

And that is what makes each and every one of us unique and interesting.

Steve

Steve, what in heck is a 6.5 Blowhole? And do I want one. As for 120 gr 6.5 bullets go, I like the Speer SP version, works wonders out of my Swede. I loaded fifty of them, I even have that ammo in a regulation box, and all I do is just shoot deer with them. This morning, I took out another Coyote, Something to do while unemployed. Rather that sit and sulk about it, I fiq out why not just go hunt, nothing says you can't shoot these guys, I taken 5 so far since Jan, with 7mm RM and 6.5 x 55.

gmsemel,


Chub and I built a rifle each in the cartridge: both were 6.5-280 Ackley Improved. Chub's is marked 6.5 Blowhole Express and mine was maked .264 Brainfart Express (we share a weird humor ).

I later gravitated to the 6.5-'06 Ackley Improved, mostly because the dies were quite standard and great brass was much more plentiful. I had Gordy Gritters make the rifle using a Krieger barrel, McSwirley RemClassic stock and bushed bolt.

The 6.5-280 Ackley offers slightly increased powder capacity, but the 6.5-06 Ackley Improved is still probably the most practical large .264" hunting cartridge for those who want the most performance with the least recoil.

I wrote a two-part article on the Gordy Gun and the 6.5-'06 Ackley. Heck of a cartridge.

Thank you, that explains every thing.

I want a Blowhole Express

gmsemel, If you have access to any of the back issues of the VHA magazine, issues #48 and #49 have Steve's article on the building of his 6.5-06. The article is a very thorough and informative piece of work that covers the project from start to finish.

As was all his articles in VHA.

Al

Thanks for the info DZ.

Was there a way, in hindsight, that you could have taken care of your shoulder better. Say lifting weights or something? Mine has been hurting lately and I'm a bunch younger than you.

DakotaDeer,

Probably not, something none of my readers know was that I was a bodybuilder (also a marathon runner) during a lot of my life.

Karen and I even lived with Frank and Chris Zane for a while down at Zane Haven, learning the right way to keep in shape. Frank, of course, was Mr. Olympia shortly after Arnold Swartzeneger.

Frank Zane, by the way, lead two lives in his youth. He was an absolute world-class archer and also he was the incredible bodybuilder that we all know. When it came to make a decision of which career path to follow, the bodybuilding offered the better cash benefits, so that is the way he chose. Frank is a friend and as fine a man as you will ever meet.

Karen and I have always lead an active lifestyle, so I don't know how I could have prevented the shoulder problem. Exercise, free weights, running and months of hunting every single year. A life well lived.

Frankly, Dakota, the antelope thing was just one of those events that happens. If I had ten bucks for every mile I humped an elk quarter, or a half-deer or an antelope, it would be a pile of cash. We're half mule and we might as well admit it.

Some would ask, "Why didn't you just drive out on the prairie." The answer is that our host, Tom Hougen, specifically requests that hunters don't leave the two-track with vehicles. He might easily be messing with his cows in a blizzard in February and mistakenly follow that old path. And it might kill him.

Frankly, Tom is a great guy and I would never do anything to disrespect that fine man or that would put him at the slightest risk. If he asks anything of me, that's good enough for me.

The bad thing is that my other shoulder, the left one, is now going bum. I'm trying to ignore the bugger, but it's not getting better. Maybe hard workouts with the rubber bands that the PT lady gave me would help. Crap, I don't even want to think about it. :angry:

Considering that Karen and I have lived life to it's absolute physical fullest ... no regrets. None at all.

Dakota, I wish you the best of luck with your shoulder. Hey, exercise; clean free weight work, with light dumb bells and work up to lots of reps and sets, might just be the ticket. Good luck, my friend.

Steve

Dakota, try these out for your shoulder-

http://www.thedacare.org/crs/sma/sma_xshoubur_art.htm

http://www.thedacare.org/crs/sma/sma_shouburs_rex.htm

Here is a link to a product that helps me:

http://www.betterfitnessproducts.com/shoulderhorn.html%23101

It is designed to specifically exercise the rotator cuff. It supports your arms while you exercise, and it can provide dramatic improvements. The exercise includes using light hand weights. Read the info at the link for more details.

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