Am going to do some load development for brother in law's sporterized old military style mauser with 22" barrel. Gun is either an Argentine or Austrian Mauser(so I am told). I shot 20 Remington factory 175 grain loads to get a sense of what it can do. Accuracy at 100 yards was about 1" groups chronographed at 2275-2300 fps. Was thinking of a light bullet and a heavy bullet load. He will use rifle primarily for antelope and whiteail/mule deer and coyote/fox. He already has a .243 Win and a .270 Win but this gun is an heirloom given to him by the man who built it. Where should I start with bullets and powder? No need to push or even come close to the edge and it will not really see much use given the other two he already has. He just wants to have some loads that work for his intended use rather than buy factory ammo. Thanks for any suggestions.

For a light-bullet load I would start with any of the common 139-145-grain bullets and 45 grains of H4350 or Ramshot Hunter, and work up until muzzle velocity gets around 2800. This usually shoots pretty well.

With 175's either H4831 or RL-22 usually works well. I'd start around 40 grains and work up toward 2400 fps.

Or you can just load a 154-160 grain bullet for everything, with H4350. The heavier bullets may shoot better in this rifle due to the long military throat that it no doubt has--though I once had an 1895 Mauaser that shot very well with 130 Speers, despite the long throat!

My 7x57 has a long throat and the only lighter bullet it will shoot into an 1 1/2" is the 145gr GS with enough 4350 to get 2,750fps.

The load I've worked up in the past month is the 160 Speer Hot-Cor on top of Hunter for just under 2700fps. It's putting three under an inch regularly and I'm quite pleased.

Mule Deer has a hell of a lot more credibility than I of course. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


Travis

We need all the info we can get!

My wife's commercial Mauser 98 shoots 145 gr Speet boattails tripped by 46 gr of H414 really well. Don't know how fast they are going, but they kill antelope, mule deer and caribou very nicely.

My first wife had a sporterized Model 95 Mauser that shot Federal factory 139 gr loads under an inch for three shots all day long. I was told by several who were quite sure of themselves that the long military throat meant that bullets lighter than 175 gr wouldn't shoot well. Fortunately we were dumb enough to ignore them... .

I've never encountered a 7x57, or a .280 for that matter, that wouldn't shoot 139 Hornady's very very well.

Dennis

I have a '98 sporter that was rebarreled with a new FN barrel with the typical military looong throat. Speer 130s (average of 4 groups)go into 1.089", Sierra 140s and Hornady 139s hover right around an inch, and 5 groups of Hornady 154s average 1" even.

When I was shooting one years ago Win 760 and a 140 Nosler Solid Base shot and killed well in it.

The 139 and 154gr Hornadys are sure killers, as is the 160gr Sierra Gameking. And they have the added bonus of being cheap enough to encourage a lot of range time.

I swear, I'm the only sap who's 7x57 won't shoot the 139gr. Hornady's. Or the 154's. Shame too, great bullets.


Travis

Appreciate all the suggestions. Looks like I will try bullets towards the heavier side first and then maybe try the 139-145 bullets suggested. Suggestions will help shorten development time.

I've only loaded for two 7x57's, both FN Venezuelan's that had been sporterized to varying degrees but retained the original barrel. I would start with a Stoney Point OAL gauge (now marketed under the Hornady label)and see what bullets will approach the lands and still stay in the case.

If the throat is relatively short, consider experimenting with the "120 grain Trinity" (Nosler BT, Hornady V-Max, Barnes TSX) given your interest in a dual purpose varminting/deer-antelope rig. They can usually be made to shoot to the same point of aim.

I've had best luck with 120's using R15 and H414. Ramshot Big Game is on my experimental list as well.

The 7mm 139gr Hornady SP previously mentioned *may* just be the best deer bullet period out of the small 7's. +1 to MD's recommendation of H4350 and/or Ramshot Hunter.

I'd also recommend getting the back issue of Handloader 246 from April/May 2007 for JB's article on loading the 7x57. Great piece of work! Even if he left out the 120's ...

*grin*

GE

I have been a avid fan of the 7x57 for many years. I always have one around the house and I have hunted extensively with that caliber, its a nostalgia thing I suspect..

All my 7x57 have been Brno M-21 or 22s or custom rifles that I have built...I always have a 30-06 length box (magazine) and I always cut a long throat that will allow for the bullet to be seated out..I throat them to where I can seat a 160 Nosler or perhaps a 175 gr. Nosler .284 depth into the case, depending on the particular rifle..In effect I have a 7x57 Improved if I use H414 powder..I load H414 considerably over any book max so I won't give the load..

BTW, the Brno M-21 and 22 come with such a magazine and chamber. That is why I started doing my rifles like this..

With the above procedure I can get an easy 2600 FPS with the 175 gr. Nosler, and 2916 FPS with the 160 gr. Nosler..

I will add that one of my favorite deer, antelope bullets in the 7x57 is the 130 gr. Speer as it performs flawlessly on such game. It has to take quit a jump to the rifleing but todate it has shot well in every 7x57 I have owned, so perhaps that old wives tale of short bullets making a jump is just that, an old wives tale..Some shoot and some don't just like everything else in the world of gundome, it just depends on the rifle in question.

I have tried this with several calibers/cases, but found that this type of improvement only works well with the the 7x57, and 257 Robts. case. Ackley, states in his book that he felt the only IMP cases that were really worthwhile with were the 7x57, 257, and 250 Savage, so there may be some corelation here..

I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat...

Ok, I'll throw another recipe on to the pile. My 7x57 is a Win push feed Featherweight, and its favorite is a 160 gr. Barnes TSX on top of 50 gr.H4831sc. IIRC its getting about 2650 fps with that load, and SUPER accurate.
Second choice in this rifle ( I'm like Atkinson, heavy boolits are you freinds- used mine for alot of the bigger stuff too.) is a 175Gr. Nosler Partition on 41gr of IMR4895. I forget what it clocks out at, but its fast enough to kill elk sized critters!
Ingwe

Has anyone ever tried this ammo in a 93 or 95 Mauser?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=273774

I like the 139 Grain Hornady Spire Point over W760 for about 2900 fps. I have also used the 140 Balistic Tip. These two bullets out of a number of 7x57 and 280 rifles have always worked well on deer and hogs,including some big bodied bucks and some big old boars.

I can also recommend the 160 Grain Sierra Gameking at max velocity,I've not recovered one yet and they kill quickly IME.

I have always relied upon W760 and IMR4350 in the 7x57,it was the first cartridge(along with the 270)that I handloaded and it works well on game without a lot of recoil or muzzle blast.

I like the 175 grain Hornady over 45 grains of H4350. Big holes in, through, and out of animals. I also like the 160 grain Speer Hot Cor and Mag-Tip. The Speers performs satisfactorily on deer. The Hot Cor is a tough bullet, and the Mag-Tip is even tougher.

-

Still no Reloder 17 from anyone yet

160GN Woodleigh over 46gn H4350 for 2690fps.

Von Gruff.

Yep, my thoughts as well! grin

I just got my first pound of Reloder 17 a couple of weeks ago and haven't had time to wring it out yet. In fact I am still trying to decide which cartridges to try it in...

The only thing I would add to the foregoing is that while I have also used H414 (or Win. 760--they are exactly the same powder) in the 7x57 with excellent results, I would warn that in really warm temperatures the pressures can get a little weird. It is a classic ball powder, and these can increase pressures considerably in ambient temperatures much over 80 F.

Of course most of North American big game hunting is done in cool enough temperatures that this doesn't matter. But 14 years ago I took a custom 7x57 on a pronghorn hunt in New Mexico in in the last week of August. The load was a maximum charge of Win. 760 and a 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, and while there were no real problems, that hunt was one reason I switched from 760/414 to H4350 or Ramshot Hunter for most of my 7x57 hunting--especially in warmer weather.

OK, my .02 too. Only load we've handload for son's Ruger 77 is H4350 50.0 gr under a 140 gr Accubomb w/Fed 210's. Been told that's not too hot but don't know the velocity. Do know it shoots 2 1/2" 200 yd groups and smacks deer w/o a lot of bloodshot. What velocity should this be turning JB?? 2800ish?

46.0 grains of H4350 - 154 grain Hornady IB - 2700 fps.
46.0 grains of H4350 - 160 grain Nosler Partition - 2700 fps.
48.0 grains of H4350 - 140 grain Nosler Partition - 2830 fps.
All shoot MOA from my 98 24" barrel.

The muzzle velocity would depend on the age of the 77. Older ones had LONG throats, newer ones have much shorter throats.

It really doesn't matter a lot, though, if the deer are dying!

Yeah, absolute fps is way down the priority list. This 77 is a 1972 model and it does have a fairly long throat. Forgot the COL but again that's way down the list too as long as it shoots. Doesn't like either the 120 gr Sierra or 120 TSX. Those were trial runs that didn't warrant pursuit after the Accu loads were shot. You know, off the subject a little, but after deciding anything over 250 yds would be a long shot for my deer hunting I started sighting in our deer rifles (6.5 Swed, .260, 7mm-08, .270 etc) at 200 yds and discovered all tended to be about 1 to 1 1/2" high at 100 yds and even closer to POI at 50. Seems to work with velocities from 2700 t0 3000 or so with bullets from 120 gr to 150ish. With this midrange trajectory and enough velocity to make a bullet expand, hitting and killing deer is achievable.

I learn something new every day...didn't know that one. Sooo, taking into account your caveat about increased pressure at higher temperatures, could these powders and their data be used interchangeably for the 7x57 and other cartridges across the board?
Really interested as a good friend gave me a couple pounds of 760 I'm not sure what to do with yet...
Ingwe

My Speer #13 manual shows 7x57 load data for both H414 and W760. The charges and velocities shown are significantly different for the same bullet. Are we certain that H414 and W760 really the same powder? Maybe they weren't the same when the load data in the Speer #13 manual was developed.

?

All powders vary somewhat from lot to lot, which can account for manual differences. But yes, they are the same powder, and always have been.

H110 and Win. 296 are the same as well.

My #1A 7X57 with long throat loves 49.5gr of 4350 under a 140 Nos PT for an average of 2790 at 50 degrees.

Big Redhead,

I had to get out my #13 Speer manual after your comment about the differences in 7x57 data between 760 and 414. Here is what I found listed in maximum loads:

110-grain: 760--54.0 grains/3250 fps
414--54.0/3141

115-grain: 760--53.0/3095
414--53.0/3053

120-grain: 760--47.0/2778
414--48.0/2851

130-grain: 760--50.0/2960
414--50.0/2952

145-grain: 760--50.0/2743
414--50.0/2748

160-grain: 760--46.0/2605
414--46.0/2582

175-grain: 760--44.0/2442
414--44.0/2403

Pleae note that in only one bullet weight is there a 1-grain difference in the maximum powder charge. The others are all exactly the same. And with the 120-grain bullet, if the powder charges were the same the muzzle velocity would be about the same.

There are some differences in muzzle velocity, though the only really significant one is with the lightest bullet weight. The others are so similar that they could be averages from different 10-shot strings done on the same day.

I also looked at a bunch of the other 760/414 data in the Speer manual. Very occasionally the maximum charges varied by 2-3 grains, but only in fairly large cases (60 grains or more) at the extremes of the powder's usefulness. This is also pretty normal. 760/414 is a powder best suited to medium-sized cases with medium to heavy weight bullets. When used with lighter bullets or in cases with large capacity to bore size, performance varies more.

These 2-3 grain differences in FEW instances could be due to the normal variations in a 10-shot string, or to using different lots of powder. Some of the data may have been shot months or even years before the other data. This is also quite common in loading manuals, and the company doesn't see any reason to re-shoot the load if the performance is still within the normal range.

I have seen many powders change enough between lots that charges had to be adjusted 2 grains in the same rifle in cartridge cases of 50-60 grains powder capacity. This is a 3-4% variation.

I didn't go through the entire manual to see how many times the data for 760/414 was essentially identical, but did look through all the rifle data from .25 to .30 caliber. About 80% of the time the maximum loads listed for any bullet weight/case combo are identical, and muzzle velocity as close as two 10-shot strings would be with any chronographing done on the same day.

You will notice the same level of agreement in 760/414 data in any current manual.

JB, thanks for that input, now I can go forth and use up some of my 760.
Along the same lines I was told years ago that 748 and H322 were the same powder...any truth to that one?
Ingwe

No, it isn't true.

There's a big difference between 322 and 748 data in all the manuals, as much as 3-4 grains in charges in cases in the .223 class. That's a difference of 12-16%, and it's consistent across the spectrum of suitable cartridges.

Good... thanks JB. I never tried to interchange, as my info source always seemed like he needed some B.S. ( and thats not Barsness-Sisk) Repellant...
Ingwe

I use a fair bit of 735, but only in the 223 and AI. It seems virtually identical to 322 in that application.

I was thinking more along the lines of H335 and W748 being the same. Could that be the case? Both seem somewhat close to TAC either way.

Never used H322, is it even a ball powder?

Mule Deer,
Thank you for the insight on the loads I asked about and all the other stuff. This thread has evolved to many topics much like a real face to face campfire. It epitomizes what can happen if people are civil and participate without rancor and accept the input of others around the fire. Sometimes having a roasted marshmallow with cracker and chocolate relaxes people and fosters the spirit of the Campfire. Unlike many other threads recently! Thanks again for your participation!

Ruger280,

H335, 748 and TAC are all ball powders, but they are all different powders and not interchangeable.

rflshtr,

You're welcome. The Campfire can be a warming experience!

Good, I was kinda wondering about the 748 and 335 too, thanx JB.
Ingwe

Win296=H110
W760=H414

Thanks JB!

At the risk of sounding like a politician, W748 and H335 are the same powder and are different powders.

It goes something like this,these two are manufactuted exactly the same,both are taken out of the same large bin.

But the variuos lots of H335 and W748 are blended to meet specs that while close,may not be entirely the same.

One is tested to comply with H335 specs and the other complies with W748 specs.

These are just different enough that the companies will not say they are interchangable.

So at the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton,it depends on how you define "same".

Good reply, JB. Sorry, I was wrong. So much for posting "facts" from memory. Thanks for setting the record straight.

-

My 7x57 is a WW featherweight with a custom barrel. The factory barrel simply copper fouled more than it was worth to clean it.
While the custom barrel rarely fouls and cleans up within 30 min.
It shoots everything from 120-gr to 160-gr bullets extremely accurate with it's 1:10 twist. It's favorite load is a 150-gr
TSX bullet on top of a healthy load of H4831 to produce sub-MOA
accuracy. But it also shoots other bullets very well.