Anyone happen to see Lee J. Hoots most recent abortion, I mean article regarding Mule Deer rifles? Guy is a complete [bleep] idiot! Says the .257 Roy shouldn't be used because it can't buck wind! Seriously, where'd they find this clown?

Hoots obviously never shot a .257 Weatherby. Or, if he did, he surely was not paying attention.

Steve

Sounds pretty much like a case of cranial anal submersion to me...<g>

Dober

Between MV and Hoots my Wolfe has lost my subscriptions.

And losing JB was the absolute last straw.

They lost my subscriptions after subscribing to Handloader, Rifle and Successful Hunter ... all from Issue Number One.

I wasn't learning a blessed thing, so I saw no point in sending my hard-earned money to the few remaining folks at Wolfe Publishing.

Steve

Wow.
old Hoots seems intent on digging the hole ever deeper...

I didn't see the article but I think he's wrong.

All things (shape and velocity) being equal, a 120 grain .257 beats a 130 grain .270 in wind bucking. And in .308 you have to go to 180 grain to beat the .257. All things are not equal because the Roy probably starts at higher velocity.

I suspect it doesn't make any difference this side of 500 yards anyway. If I had a Roy I'd use 100 grain bullets, probably.

I haven't seen the article either, I bailed out of Wolfe when John did.
Did you notice, did Hoots say the .257 Roy was big enough for mule deer?
Or would we have to go up to a .270???
Oops, no, that wouldn't work either would it?
Ingwe

Here's his exact words:

"Though the .257 Weatherby Magnum is popular with hunters in the West, it's limited bullet selection and inability to buck the strong winds often found in mule deer country is a liability."

Hoots is a moron.

I can understand Hoots making an argument for the 30/06 and 300 WSM as fine mule deer cartridges,but the logic used in excluding some other cartridges is a bit convoluted....

The 257 Roy and 25/06 are disqualified by "limited bullet selection" and "wind deflection". The 6.5's fall from favor due to limited availability of rifles and ammo.

The 270's are "easily bested",whatever that means,and by what exactly he does not say. I guess a few million dead mule deer since 1925 don't really count(it is funny in this country how we no longer pay ANY attention to historical precedent).

The short 7mm's are tossed out as not popular enough(mule deer object to being killed with unpopular cartridges, I guess); and the long magnum 7's come in rifles and receivers that are too heavy. They get the boot as well....

Leaving us with(drum roll)the 30/06 (popular and available, easy shooting, he says),and the 300 WSM (easily the best according to Hoots)because it allows more downrange energy,and a flatter trajectory than the 270(possibly),the 270 WSM and 7RM(my own drop tests to 500 say this is untrue).

I have no squawk with someone hawking his favorite cartridge,but the article is so loaded with half-truths and distortions that it has become one of my favorite outdoor literature satires.He could not have seriously meant what he wrote....

Wind, humm.

Steve,

It really is a shame what happened at wolfe. I had those pubs for years. Do you or anyone else know of any other quality handloading publicatations?

CLB

I am surprised no one has mentioned the obvious solution to Wolfe's problem- They should hire Lee24 as writer/editor/business manager/human resources director/publicity manager and computer guru- In less than a week, circulation would double, prices would halve and content would improve-

Steve:

Right about the time they let JB go, I realized that I was learning more from him, you and several other pros right here on the 'Fire, than I was from the Wolfe publications, anyway.

- Tom

I am dropping my subscriptions to all three magazines too. I don't think you could go to far wrong in using any of the
calibers he suggested were inadequate as they are the best ones. I don't think all his dogs are barking!!

I think I'll still take mine out with 110 Accubonds and pray that the wind doesn't blow.

I let my subscription(I had all three also) lapse not long before JB left Wolfe.
Serendipity, I guess.


BTW, I still like Elk's, 458Win's, and Pearce's work.

I am almost starting to feel sorry for the guy......mmmm, not really. grin

He must have been drunk when he wrote the article

I'd better call Hoots and find out about the cartridges I've been using....they could also be wind sensitive, inadequate, or "easily bested". I'm so confused!
I don't know what I'm going to do this season...what if I see mule deer, and I'm not properly armed?
Sure glad this came to light when it did, I have been seriously contemplating a .257 Roy
Maybe it would be OK for antelope, they're smaller and the wind never blows where they live....
Ingwe

total assclown.....that was one of the absolutely dumbest articles I've ever read in a gun rag, and that's saying a lot.

Doesn't anyone proof read or question this stuff before it goes to print?

is that not the same guy who says the 7 mag won't do for mule deer either ?
...tj3006

The thing that bothered me the most is that he does not have to have ever shot a Roy to know that it bucks wind better than most of the cartridges he was speaking of. A simple scan of an ammo catalog, or run the numbers through a program, and it would tell him so. I think he just didn't care to get at the truth...and that is a sure sign of a writer who's career is sliding downward.

Evidently Hoots didn't gwt the memo regarding looking like an idiot when trying to be controversial.

According to my software a 100 grain TSX shot at 3600 ft/second drifts about 10 inches at 400 yards in a 10 mph crosswind.

A 180 grain .308 Partition shot at 2700 ft/second drifts about 12.5 inches. A 150 grain .308 Ballistic Tip at 2910 drifts about 12 inches.

Limited bullet availability sure is a problem, too. A quick check of my (partial) list of .25 caliber bullets came up with 25.

Give the boots to Hoots.

I let my subscription to all three Wolfe magazines run out at the exact time that Johnny B's last articles appeared (that was convienent).

Judging from this BS,maybe I need to send in an article or three to Wolfe.I'm thinking one about how the 222 Remington just won't cut it for prarie dogs anymore oughta be good.You have to have at least a 223 ya know.

That oughta be right up their alley.

WB.

Well that settles it for me..I think I'll take my '06 this year.

Yup,you do that.

While you're at it,mail that POS 257 Roy to me.There's no mulies up here.I'm assuming Hoots will allow blacktails to be killed by a 257 Roy.

If not,I'm going to start feeling really undergunned toting my 22 Hi-Power this year!

WB.

Yeah, and 80 grains of TTSX @ 3800 f/s won't be out in the wind very long either. Might get the job done methinks.

1flier

The Roy? Hell a 25-06 with a 110gr AB @3200 vs a .300 WSM with a 180gr AB @3000, is within about 2/10" @ 500 yards with a 10mph crosswind. The 25-06 is marginally flatter.

Add 2-300 fps to the equation for the Roy.

Perhaps he could change his name Lee J. Asstriliquist.

I started subscribing to Guns Magazine where JB is contributing in every issue w/ multiple articles per issue.

I don't sub to Wolfe anymore that Editor in Chief, or whatever the title, is a piece of work.

The owner/president is a nice guy though, not sure why he keeps the guy around...must have a multi-year contract.

That does it! I think Jeff O IS Lee Hoots.

The reference to wind drift is interesting. I seriously doubt that one shooter in 50,who hunts the west each year for mule deer, truly KNOWS how to hold in a full-value wind at 500 yards(or 300 for that matter),Hoots included.

Such knowledge and ability is reserved for the match shooters of vast experience,and guys who have hunted the west for varmints and fired thousands of rounds under actual conditions.

Biggest bunch of crap I've read in a long time. How a cartridges availability or popularity has any effect on it's performance on game animals is a new one on me? As far as the 7mm being too heavy I wonder what the weight difference is between a 30-06 with a 24" barrel and a 7mm with a 24" barrel? How many inexperienced hunters are now wondering if their new 270's and 7mm's will even kill a Mule deer? This guy dosen't know $#!+ from shinola.

A couple of years ago,I spent a good bit of time getting ready for an Arizona antelope hunt.

I shot three rifles out to 500 yards with different wind conditions to get a feel for their trajectory and drift in actual field condtions.

I used a 257 Weatherby Vanguard with 115 grain balistic tips,a McWhorter Custom M700 in 7mm Weaherby Mag with 150 Sierra Gamekings,and an Ed Brown Damara in 300 Win Mag with 180 Accubonds.

The 257 Weatherby shot flatter and had less drift all the way out to 500 yards. The 300 Mag had the most drop and wind drift.

My little test tells me that Hoots has never actually shot a 257 Weatherby and compared it to a 300 mag.

If I am hunting for a trophy mule deer in open country,I would prefer my 257 Weatherby to any of my 300 mags. The 257 will kick less and shoot flatter and in my experience drift less in wind out to 500 yards.

Hoots doesn't know how foolish this whole article comes across to shooters with real experience. Scovill,the editor surely knew that this article was utterly stupid,and published it anyway.

I have been doubting Scovill's ability since he published an article in which he criticized people who want good quality triggers on all of their big game rifles. He said people ought to quit whinin' about lousy trigger pulls and just get used to them and learn how to shoot.

Again,most experienced shooters know the value of a properly adjusted trigger when we actually want to hit what we're aiming at.

Hoots is about worthless as a serious gunwriter,and Scovill isn't doing his job either IMHO.

Now I face a great moral dilemma--do I tell my son how irresponsible I was in allowing him to shoot this buck (375 yds) with such a fundamentally inappropriate cartridge?

Nope I wouldn't tell him, nor would I tell him that his bolt is sitting on the wrong side...

Dober

It is there so he can grab the gun from the right side.

Darn that Hoots anyway!
Now I 'need' to go out and buy a 257Roy so I can prove him wrong about killing Muleys with it.

utah: Nice buck! Congrats to your son.....did he use the 25WD(Wind Drifted),270EB(Easily Bested),the 7mmSNP(Short,Not Popular),or the 7mm TH(Too Heavy).......

And the distance.....I mean compared to a 300 WSM,all the above have the trajectory path of a wet noodle

Just curious what caused this buck to expire when,by all logic, he should still be alive

They've scraped the bottom of the barrel with this clown.

Bob,
My guess is that the hunter in question had a hat that said "300WSM"-and the buck kicked the bucket when he saw that!

JG/340: Enough....I need to stop....Can't help myself because the article is really that funny!

JG, throw back those 190+'s you've killed with the 7RM!

Any cartridge invented before 2000 won't work on them(except the 30/06!)

Bob--He used the 25 Wind Drift. We were also carrying a 27 Easily Bested, but had been doing more long range work with the Wind Drift and therefore had more confidence (seemingly misplaced) in it.

But it was one of the rare calm days in southern Idaho, so we dodged a bullet there, while apparently the buck did not.

Well, I did kill 5-6 muley bucks with my completely old fashioned and poor performing Marlin 30-30 when I was a kid. Another thing I try to do when the wind is blowing a little hard, and I'm faced with a 500 yard shot, I just try to get closer.....I know that's earth shattering and ground breaking strategy, but it has worked on occasion.

Nice touch Skane..

Skane/Utah:

That's it....I can't handle anymore!TF!


JG: Yes, getting closed is a novel approach.................I'm going to the range to shoot my 270 EB at 200 yards....now at least I know it's useless beyond that distance...........

Back when I was a defense contractor I often had to write procurement documents that would result in acquisition of the Thing We Really Wanted. I got the feeling I was reading something from that school when I read Hoots' Mule Deer Rifle, and when I got to the part where the Nosler rifle in .300 WSM won I knew what the Rifle He Really Wanted was.

I did like the part where he considered the 6.5 Rem Mag, that is my current choice.

jim

6.5 Rem mag been years since I saw one in the field.But do like the round and wish it was more popular.

Never given the 6.5 Rem mag. much thought, since not many rifles are chambered for same.
Sounds like an interesting cartridge, however.

Wow- and here, all this time, I thought I was using my .257 Wby., with real fast bullets, for mule deer and antelope, and whatever else, was BECAUSE of less wind drift!!

Something about time of flight- a fast projectile moves from A to B in less time than a slower projectile, and thus the external force of wind has less time to push it off course.

I think John Elway told me that once...........

I use my 6.5 Rem like a .257 Roy. 125 gr. NP at 3275. Kills TX deer right now. I don't suppose Hoots would give a hoot about it either.

Docbill-you're running a 125 out of a 6.5 Rem mag @ 3275? How long of tube and what kind of powder?

Thx
Dober

24 in. and RL22. Look at the Nosler manual (6, I think). A 120 goes at 3325 +/-.

That is smoking! I kind of figured that R22 would be the one, and excuse me from asking but you have clocked this load right?

Thx
Dober

Bob don't shoot that 270EB at 201 yards!

I thought that was 301 yards??
(grin)

MagMarc: I just got back from the range,where I fired the 270EB at 300 yards,6 shots.....uuhh....they all made it through the paper,and a couple even went through the cardboard backing...

Quick! Call EVERYONE!

WOW, how much over book max did you load it?

MagMarc: Can't say......liability

It seems to me there are more than a few new gunscribes out there that have very little actual hunting experience by my standards, and perhaps its a sign of the times and they grew up reading the old stuff and became self proclaimed experts...

In fact I have know a few of the old timers that were not near as well seasoned as they would have liked for us to believe. I hope I'm wrong as I have learned a lot and still do from the better scribes of today and yesteryear. They are soul preservation of our hunting heretage and I hope the production people pick them carefully...

On 24 hour campfire we have the best of the best IMO...and there are a few that won't post on these blogs and they are probably wise not to, they certainly don't set themselves up for criticism by remaining ononimous...

My dog in the fight is that, if I recall, he lumps the .270 Roy in with the .257.

A 130 at, or about, 3500 is a fairly impressive thing.

The Hootdoosh is arguing minutiae, too bad for him his cartridge will come out on the losing end of any argument with the thinner WSM rounds...or...about everything else...provided you keep it inside 500 yards. I'm not a good shot, even though I practice a good bit (field positions), so I can't see shooting deer sized stuff much further than 300 yards unless a REALLY good rest is at hand.

I guess Mulies, outside Nebraska at least, are sOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tough that you need a .30 take them down at 0-400 yards.

I guess if you're going to drill a hole in their arse, you might as well make it a bigger one.

I'm thinking his Indian name is "silly squaw"

What .257 Roy?

Robert, I'm calling BS on this one....

Now that's funny stuff!

Scott: Yup, only kidding..... . But, it was just a 270-130,past 200 yards........hey, I did not write this stuff.

I have read a lot of the works by truly great gun writers over the years.We have some of the best in the business on this site. I am ordinarily not critical of guys who report honestly and formulate educated opinions. I also recognize crap when I read it.

My take on the article is that it reminds of those 'experts' you run into at the range or gun store. You know the kind who tell tales of incredible 400 yard running shots or 700 yard off hand kills. Then angrily tell you the 7mm-08 is vastly ballistically superior to the 30-06.

Wasn't Hoots the Guns and Ammo editor for an issue or two.

Ventrino's okay in his idiom. In fact, he's maybe too deeply knowledgeable about his idiom to the point of........yawn. His column so far hasn't been good.

Brian Pierce is okay when he's talking lever guns or revolvers. His article on the 7mm-08 was a silly.

I enjoy Havilland and Shoemaker.

I've been debating canceling my subscriptions. Losing Ross Seyfried was a blow. Losing Barsness was just plain dumb.

I miss Ken Waters also.

How can't you. It's like your grandpa...who knew schitt, passing away.

He's not dead, but he doesn't/can't share anymore.

Dober:

Sorry I am offline in the afternoons. Yes I clocked that load. A 120 Sierra in that gun will run 3327 with 61 gr. of RL-22 and 3272 with the 125 Nosler. Of course your mileage may vary.

The Nosler book also shows a 3400+ load with IMR 7828 for the .257 Roy and a 120 gr. Now thats fast.

The 6.5 does all I need. Hogs, deer, and Aoudad. [:)

doc,

What rifle are you shooting? Barrel length, twist, factory or custom tube?

Thanks, gravy

My 6.5 Rem is a Ruger 77 with tang safety (30-06 length) rebarreled by a local smith. I had him use a #4 fluted Lilja at 24"; the twist is quick 1:8 maybe. It has a Brown 1 lb.Kevlar stock, 2.5x8 Lupe, and scales 7 1/4 lbs. A great haul weight and consistently turns .5-.75 inch off the bench.

It is throated so that I load the 120/125 grs.bases at the base of the neck. I don't shoot 140's in it because I don't want to lengthen the throat. I don't like to bury a lot of bullet in the casing.

Sounds like a great rifle. I am shooting a factory 673 with the same bullet and have been satisfied with the results of under 3/4" but less velocity, which is understandable due to a different load. I like the cartridge and am in the process of looking for a donor action to do roughly the same thing you did. So far I have not seen the need to move up to a 140, the 125 works quite well!

A tang safety Ruger in 6.5 Rem mag?
cool...

Talk about timing, I got a package from Wolfe requesting advertising and it had copies of 3 magazines in it..and one was the Rifle mag with Hoots article..

My favorite Wolfe magazine today is Successful Hunter because I like to read Phil Shoemakers stuff. Phil is is a good friend of mine and he is the real deal..I don't read many of the magazines anymore but I get all of them in the mail at no cost because of my business, and I advertise in them sometimes.

It was a rambling article of no real substance, and looking at his picture its obvious he hasn't been around long and is still pretty wet behind the ears, so give him a few more years, a shave and a haircut and let his balls drop and he'll probably be one of the good guys to our future generation of rag readers,but he better quit scribing that kind dribble or be sure and keep his day job...:)

I have a suspecion that its getting harder and harder to get scribs that have any real hunting experience the old scribes, like old hunt consultants like myself can't remember where they hunted yesterday...:)

I also believe that these gun magazines have run out of material for the most part as the whole ball of wax has been covered a multitude of times but perhaps the new generation of shooters coming up is where their future lies, not with a bunch of old curmudgeons!

Anyway God Bless'em, they may be our only hope to preserve our shooting hereatage in todays society.

Im looking forward to some new stuff like the 30-06 vs. the .270, that should make some great reading!

Uh, you sure about those wind buckin figures? You made need to check those again.

I do however agree Hoots is very, very wrong. I also agree the 257 Roy and the 25/06 are most excellent muley cartridges, as are most 25's.

Bill

That one got me! TFF

I've been away from the online hunting world for a year or so, and I'm back, and didn't know that JB had left Wolfe. I'm a subscriber to their online magazines and have enjoyed them up until now. Just downloaded the article by Hoot and think he is a big boob so we probably should now call him Hooter.

Next January when they want me to renew, I suspect they'll be in for a surprize when I tell them that I'm leaving in JB's footprints.

Too bad JB is no longer there. During his "reign" the mags made a lot of sense and you could usually count on realistic articles. I suspect that now it'll just end up as more drivel written by professional writers that learned everything or at least most of what they know by reading articles written by other writers. That kind of crap is so easy to spot and I suspect he got that opinion by reading some other misguided writer's article from somewhere or another.

$bob$

LD: Welcome back!

Thanks Bob!!! It's great to be back and my "vacation" did me some good too.

Speaking of muleys I might be putting together a trip in 2010 but I imagine my 7mmSAUM Model 7AWR will be my choice since those Roy's are so anemic and won't buck the wind.

$bob$

I suspect the Saum will work just fine

Could Lee Hoots and Lee24 be one and the same???

I didn't read the article, but it sounds to me like Hoots was taking into account the "wumpability" coefficient which has only recently been observed.

While Hoots is no doubt a purveyor of vinegar and water...I have no evidence he voted Obama...and still stands by, and is proud, of that fact.